Route specific tier list

[leesangstar10]

Tier is ordered

This is not LTC. I tried to be as non bias as possible. This consist of theory crafting/discussions from this forum. If there is something you disagree with tell me :). Currently working on explanation for AM. Will continue to work eventually and quote ppl.

Rating criteria:

1. This is Classic Maddening Mode. Not new game plus. So no using renown to get class mastery skills etc
2. I WILL consider the skills/art units can get as they class change or level their weapon skills. Ex. Getting death blow from brigand along the way to wyvern lord
3. Will consider the investment into the unit. Like how hard it is to reach the minimum certification requirement for a certain class. Ex. Difficulty of getting Dorothea to a dark knight since she is bad at riding and neutral in lance. Recruiting students will be considered investment. 
4. I will also consider late game recruitment since xp is more scarce(so does that unit have good auto levels?)
5. Optimal plays. No unreliable luck based strats like using divine pulse to get 50% hit or killing one enemy per turn.
6. Assume everything is available to you if possible. Ex. Thyrus on CF, Dark seals, but not Arrow of Indra on any route except CF(technically you can get it at VW but on the last map)
7. How relevant are they throughout the whole route(being good early will rate unit higher) . Ex. If they suck early and mid gam, but good late, I am still going to give that unit a bad rating.
8. Mount affects unit's rating a lot. Canto/dismount broken.
9. I am judging units individually. Basically judging on their best build for a certain route. If a unit has flexible options it will be rewarded.

Factors not considered:

1. Team synergy: utility gambit, triple warp, etc
2. Dancer class change. Anybody can be a dancer and can be really good.
3. Grinding and new game plus features. Can make any unit good/broken
4. Crest for a specific weapon. Technically everybody can use it.
5. If that unit can get you a certain relic. Ex. Lorenz gets you Thyrus or Sylvains early Lance of Ruin. Technically you can get the relic, but never use the unit. What weapon they let you get access to should have no affect to their rating.

Now on to the tier list

*With in tiers it is roughly ordered atm.

Crimson Flower

Spoiler

S tier:

f-Byleth

Edelgard

m-Byleth

A+ tier:

Petra

Linhardt

Jeritza

A tier:

Ferdinand

Sylvain(f-Byleth)

Mercedes

B+ tier:

Leonie

Shamir

Constance

Hapi

Lysithea

Felix

Sylvain(m-Byleth)

B tier:

Dorothea

Marianna

Ingrid

Yuri

Bernie

Hubert

Annette

Manuala

C+ tier:

Hanneman

Balthus

C tier:

Ashe

Ignatz

Lorenz

Caspar

Alois

Raphael

Explanation(WIP):

Spoiler

S tier:

f-Byleth: Great early bases. The one of the only ones that can take hits early game. Can provide early flying utility. Amazing both wyvern or falcon. While growths are decent, the main appeal in Byleth is Faculty Training. It is easy for Byleth to get great early game(or in general) skills such as weight -3 or healing focus. Additionally, has flexible options and become 

Edelgard: Great early bases. Along with Byleth the other only one that can take hits. Can provide early flying utility. Lower than f-Byleth due to bane in bows. But has access to the most broken combat art and combination with wyvern makes it OP

m-Byleth: Same as f-Byleth, but cannot provide early flying utility, thus lower than Edelgard.

A+ tier:

Petra: Decent bases. Need couple level ups to take hits early game. Great growths and can provide flying utility early game. Amazing proficiency spread making her very flexible. Makes a great wyvern lord/falcon knight or bow knight possibly.

Linhardt: Provide great support with physics and warp. Your best early game healer.

Jeritza: Amazing stats all around. Gets distant counter as a mastery skill, which isn't hard to do with mastermind. Has access to darting and death blow. Can become a player and enemy monster. Not S because comes late to the game, only like 6chs left.

A tier:

Ferdinand: Makes a great wyvern lord and has access to Swift strike. Can become a dodge tank with his personal.

Sylvain(f-Byleth): Makes a great wyvern lord and has access to Swift strike. Has flexibility with auto levels.

Shamir: Got broken stats if recruited early since uses sniper bases. Will fall off a bit because of meh growths. Can become good falcon, bow knight, or stay as sniper.

Leonie: Great bases. Not hard to recruit if Byleth goes wyvern/falcon. Good auto levels. Has access to Point Blank Volley for those pesky enemy fliers.

Mercedes: Has best healing spell list. Can become great healer.

B+ tier:

Lysithea: Gives you early warp if recruited early and is the best warper due to high magic. Great damage output, however doesn't kill especially on Maddening (to be fair most mages can't). Lacks 3 range. Difficult to recruit.

Ingrid: Decent bases if recruited after ch5 where she is going to be in her intermediate class. Not hard to recruit if Byleth goes wyvern/falcon. Good auto levels.

Felix: Amazing early game, but will be difficult to recruit early. Requires lots of investment to recruit him early which is where he really shines. Has good auto level ups stat wise, weapon rank wise terrible(sword+brawling). Bane in authority hurts too. 

Bernie: Everything is average except low str growth. Can provide early flying utility.

Sylvain(m-Byleth): Makes a great wyvern lord and has access to Swift strike. Hard to recruit early.

B tier:

Hubert: Does more dmg but too slow to double. Has 3 range.

Dorothea: Early 3 range spell and has physics. Lacks dmg early game.

Manuala: Provide warp utility. Only reason why in B. Weird proficiency.

Marianna: Provides physics and has 3 range. But hard to recruit. Auto level ups aren't great.

C+ tier:

Hanneman: Technically got buffed because mages no longer double anymore so low spd doesn't matter. Has 3 range spell. 

Caspar: One of the worst base stats base spd 6. Growths are average and skill proficiency isn't good(bane in authority and bows). Makes decent wyvern or war master.

Ashe: Could be okay wyvern lord or bow knight. Bad auto level. 

Alois: Availability is pretty bad considering CF being so short. Lack luster bases.

Ignatz: Bad auto levels. Pretty easy to recruit. 

Annette: Not so great auto levels. Hard to recruit. Have to recruit early for her niche(rally) to be useful.

C tier:

Lorenz: Terrible auto level ups and difficult recruitment. 

Raphael: Meh auto levels. Has terrible growths and weapon proficiency. 

Azura Moon

Spoiler

S tier:

f-Byleth

Dimitri

m-Byleth

A+ tier:

Felix

Catherine

Mercedes

A tier:

Sylvain

Dedue

Seteth

Annette

B+ tier:

Leonie

Shamir

Constance

Hapi

Lysithea

Cyril

Ingrid

Petra

Linhardt

Ferdinand

B tier:

Flayn

Marianna

Hilda

Ashe

Yuri

Manuala

C+ tier:

Dorothea

Hanneman

Balthus

Gilbert

C tier:

Bernie

Ignatz

Lorenz

Caspar

Alois

Raphael

Explanation(WIP):

Spoiler

S tier:

f-Byleth: Great early bases. The one of the only ones that can take hits early game. Can provide early flying utility. Amazing both wyvern or falcon. While growths are decent, the main appeal in Byleth is Faculty Training. It is easy for Byleth to get great early game(or in general) skills such as weight -3 or healing focus. Additionally, has flexible options and become 

Dimitri: Battalion wrath+vantage broken. Great early game because of high damage output: high str stat + tempest lance. Mid game weakest, but still strong. Can be bow knight if no retribution and stil be strong with wrath+vantage combo. 

m-Byleth: Same as f-Byleth, but cannot provide early flying utility, thus lower than Edelgard.

A+ tier:

Felix: Amazing early game due to high base and good personal. Has one of the best growths. Can become a great bow knight or any physical class. Bane in authority hurts a bit and overall proficiency isn't amazing(proficient in the two worst weapons: swords and brawl). Still great overall.

Catherine: Broken when recruited early as possible. Makes mid game very easy with swordmaster bases. Has bad proficiency spread and requires lots of investment to be good late game. Makes a decent falcon knight. 

Mercedes: Provides early game healing and good support list. Can do damage when necessary. Best to stick with bishop to focus on healing.

A tier:

Sylvain: Makes a great wyvern lord and has access to Swift strike. Overall decent.

Dedue: Great early game with high def and good personal. Falls off a bit mid game and late game(especially since comes late) will struggle unless you get QR. Could make good wyvern, but availability hurts him too.

Seteth: Pretty good bases and has access to swift strike. Availability hurts but overall good wyvern lord.

Leonie: Great bases. Not hard to recruit if Byleth goes wyvern/falcon. Good auto levels. Has access to Point Blank Volley for those pesky enemy fliers.

Shamir: Got broken stats if recruited early since uses sniper bases. Will fall off a bit because of meh growths. Can become good falcon, bow knight, or stay as sniper.

B+ tier:

Annette: Provides great early game utility through rallies. However, will struggle when getting to the later part of the game when rallies aren't as useful. Dark knight path will make her struggle offensively, but supports will get better through faith skills. Lacks 3 range spells. Wyvern helps her offense and lack of 3 range, but loses on faith spells and no good battalion for her.

Lysithea: Gives you early warp if recruited early and is the best warper due to high magic. Great damage output, however doesn't kill especially on Maddening (to be fair most mages can't). Lacks 3 range. Difficult to recruit.

Cyril: Terrible bases and late game doesn't shine that much. PBV helps A LOT with his bad base.

Ingrid: Bases are pretty lack luster and will take a while to get better. Can provide early flying utility.

Petra: Decent bases. Good auto levels. Can provide flying utility early game if recruited early. Amazing proficiency spread making her very flexible. Makes a great wyvern lord/falcon knight or bow knight possibly.

Linhardt: Provide great support with physics and warp. Difficult to recruit.

Ferdinand: Makes a great wyvern lord and has access to Swift strike. Can become a dodge tank with his personal.

B tier:

Hilda: Decent bases. Good auto levels. Can provide flying utility early game if recruited early. Decent proficiency making her a good wyvern lord, but bane in authority hurts. Can pick up weight-3 early which is good.

Ashe: Everything is average except low str growth. Can become an average wyvern lord.

Manuala: Provide warp utility. Only reason why in B. Weird proficiency.

Caspar: Meh auto levels. Has terrible growths and weapon proficiency. Could become okay wyvern lord/war master.

Alois: Availability hurts, but has okay stat spread and could become okay wyvern lord/war master.

Gilbert: Availability hurts, but has okay stat spread except speed. Wyvern promotion helps spd. Could become good wyvern lord/war master.

Flayn: Availability hurts, has good support spells. Requires investment.

Marianna: Provides physics and has 3 range. But hard to recruit. Auto level ups aren't great.

C+ tier:

Hanneman: Technically got buffed because mages no longer double anymore so low spd doesn't matter. Has 3 range spell. 

Dorothea: Has 3 range and access to physics. Meh auto levels and meh growth rates. Bad dmg output.

Bernie: Could be okay bow knight or sniper. Bad auto level. 

Ignatz: Bad auto levels. Pretty easy to recruit. 

C tier:

Lorenz: Terrible auto level ups and difficult recruitment. 

Raphael: Meh auto levels. Has terrible growths and weapon proficiency. 

Verdant Wind

Spoiler

S tier:

f-Byleth

Claude

m-Byleth

A+ tier:

Lysithea

Leonie

Hilda

Catherine

A tier:

Marianne

Sylvain(f-Byleth)

Seteth

Mercedes

B+ tier:

Shamir

Constance

Hapi

Cyril

Felix

Petra

Linhardt

Sylvain(m-Byleth)

Ferdinand

B tier:

Raphael

Ingrid

Ignatz

Yuri

Lorenz

Annette

Flayn

Manuala

C+ tier:

Hanneman

Dorothea

Balthus

C tier:

Ashe

Bernie

Caspar

Alois

Explanation(WIP)

Silver Snow

Spoiler

S tier:

f-Byleth

m-Byleth

A+ tier:

Petra

Linhardt

A tier:

Ferdinand

Sylvain(f-Byleth)

Seteth

Mercedes

B+ tier:

Leonie

Shamir

Constance

Hapi

Lysithea

Felix

Bernie

Sylvain(m-Byleth)

Catherine

B tier:

Dorothea

Marianna

Hilda

Ingrid

Yuri

Annette

Flayn

Manuala

C+ tier:

Hanneman

Balthus

Cyril

C tier:

Ashe

Ignatz

Lorenz

Caspar

Alois

Raphael

Explanation(WIP)

So let's have a healthly discussion 😉

(hopefully this doesn't get ban)

Edited March 2, 2020 by leesangstar10

[LoneRecon400]

I think that these Links should really be included in the opening Posts: 

Recruited Units Stats

Black Eagles Maddening Enemy Stats

There should be extra criteria to clarify things, especially regarding Monastery Useage. How much Aux Battles should be allowed, for example? Should Fishing for Bullheads be accepted? What about for Professor Exp? Rigging for Promotions? And what of Stat Boosters and Gifts obtained through Gardening?

I also think you should also just remove the recruitable units from the list and just put them all into one list. Would make it much more concise and easier to read.

Anyways as for the actual list:

-Byleth's description should really emphasize Faculty Training. That feature can allow them to quickly accumulate enough Skill Exp to pick up skills otherwise inconvenient to get such as Weight -3 or Healing Focus.

 -While Jertiza is worthy of his position, Distant Counter isn't that useful as it takes a 100 battles to obtain. On a no grind play through, that's so late it really doesn't come into play at all. Add to the fact that the Gambit Retribution does the same thing anyways and it really doesn't stand to be mentioned.

-Sylvain's description can stand to mention how benefits from +3 Attack from his Ingrid and Felix support.

-Leonie should probably get a mention of having Point Blank Volley, which is especially useful with how dangerous fliers are in Maddening  

- Shamir does not fall off at any point if she stays as a Sniper. Speed issues are a complete non issue for her thanks to Hunter's Volley. Adding on the Killer Bow, Bow Crit+10, a battalion with high amounts of Crit, and her High Dexterity and Luck means she can reach 80+ Crit Rates rather easily.

-Ingird is not a Pegasus Knight by Chapter 5. Even when she becomes more autoleveled as one, she's not anything particularly special outside of her speed. Autolevling doesn't level Flight either, so it's going to put off learning Alert Stance + by a substantial amount. 

-Dorothea's early game is less that stellar due to Thoron being limited to 4 uses and having shaky accuracy for most of the early game. She's certainly not better than Hubert.

-Speaking of which, Hubert most certainly needs more credit for learning Mire as soon C Reason and providing a +Attack Support with Edelgard. Frozen Lance as a Budding Talent is also useful for the early game. 

-Felix is not at all difficult to recruit considering that raising his Support to B lowers the Sword Requirement to D+. Unfortunately, he is also a terrible unit to recruit since he only trains Swords and Brawling, which makes him that much harder to reach good classes like Wyvern or Bow Knight. And that's not to mention his Authority Bane

 -Likewise, Lysithea only requires D+ Faith to be recruited at B Rank Support. Her learning Warp at B Faith also makes her instantly A Tier at least. Mastermind is also skill that should get mention for allowing her to obtain Fiendish Blow more easily and allowing to her reach S reason much sooner than most other mages.   

-Bernadetta is incredibly lack luster stat wise. The only things preventing her from being just outright bad is her Combat Arts and her Personal skill, and the later becomes much harder to activate due to her lack luster defenses.

-Sylvain only requires D Reason to recurit as a male Byleth at B rank support, so he's not difficult to recruit at all.

-Caspar is easily the worst unit in the route. 6 Base Speed with no impressive Attack or Combat Arts gives him no niche and leave him rather useless until Advanced class bases and Deathblow start to kick in. Authority Bane is also rather ouch.

-Hanneman is pretty much interchangeable with Dorothea, with the only difference really being that she gets Rally Charm instead of Rally Magic and learns Meteor a bit quicker.

-Ashe is a complete lack luster unit with nothing to really differentiate him with other units. Having a boon in axes doesn't really do anything with how easy it is to certify as a Wyvern. Easily bottom tier.

-Ignatz has a boon in Authority, making him capable of using the really useful A rank Battalions sooner, such Indech Sword Fighters for Retribution, or Dance of the Goddess on the Blue Lions Route.

-Annette is more certainly not C Tier, as her rallies alone ensure that she's at least B tier. She also makes for a very competent Wyvern rider with the Lighting Axe Combat Art and the Bolt Axe, which is a rather unique niche.

-Dimitri should be higher than Byleth thanks having Battalion Wrath + Vantage. 

Edited January 8, 2020 by LoneRecon400

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I understand wanting brevity for character explanations, but some of these explanations are quite dubious

• Dorothea's early game is the weakest aspect of the character. With her weakness in Faith, you can't even pick up a basic heal spell in time for Chapter 2, one of the hardest chapters in the game. I'm not sure I even got it in time for Chapter 3 in my playthrough. By the time I unlocked her budding talent she wasn't even E+ rank. All she brings to the table for these early fights is her four thunder spells and nothing else with that 5 strength. And if she could at least heal she could gain experience outside of combat. Getting her level ups on those four thunder spells is a nightmare I'd never want to repeat. Especially since her thunder spell will see 70-80 accuracy for those kills due to linked attack bonuses not yet being strong enough to help her. And her mid and late game aren't at all noteworthy compared to other mages. She just becomes passable. 
• Recruit!Lysithea being sold on her early warp is iffy because she'll join with only E+Faith. That's still quite a ways to go to B, to a point where she likely wouldn't get it any faster than Manuela or Recruit!Linhardt
• I think it should be emphasized how bad a weakness in authority is. You really got to spend instruction sessions patching it up on those units. Just equipping them with a battalion isn't enough. And there's no class in the game that provides a bonus in authority gains, besides classes exclusive to Byleth and the Lords. For example, you need to see 100 rounds of combat just to go from E to D. It's ridiculous, and especially hurts recruited units since they don't have as much time to work on it over the course of the game as your initial class does.
  • Hilda on Silver Snow is especially hurt by this. You can only get her beginning on Chapter 12. She has a crippling weakness in authority, which is a big deal for fliers who have extremely few batallion options who are D rank at the lowest. 
• Alois rocks. Unlike other Faculty, he has several skill ranks to work with, including C rank authority so you don't have to bring him up to speed in anything other than flying/lances if you're really dying for another wyvern on the team. He can also pull off the Battalion wrath/wrath combo for 100 crit. He just needs to master the class he joins in. Then grind out mercenary at some point to add vantage to the build, put retribution on him, and bam you've got a unit that near solos maps at minimal investment. Caspar/Raphael/Dedue can pull off the same build, but you have to deal with their specific issues. Caspar's authority bane and garbage base stats, Dedue's availability post time skip, and Raphael's...lack of personal skill I guess.
• It's true Hanneman isn't hurt much by his low speed. But in my maddening experience there is exactly one enemy type I rely on mages to take out above all else - armor knights. And Armor knight AS is certainly not 0, at least not by the time you recruit Hanneman.

 

Edited January 8, 2020 by Glennstavos

[Geenoble]

So this is how you make a proper tier list post i guess. Much better than the one i made so i doubt this will get locked. 
 

I personally think that the three lords are better than female Byleth, since i value their higher stats over early flying/bows. Especially the late game powerhouses Edelgard and Dimitri become thanks to their skills and stats, and Claude’s ridiculously busted 8 move Wyvern + Encloser, but i can see an argument to why f-Byleth would be rated higher but i don't agree with it.

Hubert needs more credit, as Lone Recon mentioned he gets Mire at C, and he also gets Banshee at C reason, which reduces enemy movement by 5, and since most enemies will have 5 or less move at that stage of the game it’s basically a free stun button on an enemy. Top it off with having the second highest magic stat in the game and you get the best combat mage in the game. He does suffer from no faith utility and will Struggle to get even heal. I would say he deserves to be A tier tbh though.

3 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

It's true Hanneman isn't hurt much by his low speed. But in my maddening experience there is exactly one enemy type I rely on mages to take out above all else - armor knights. And Armor knight AS is certainly not 0, at least not by the time you recruit Hanneman.

While Hanneman will struggle to double Armors even at base but it doesn’t take much at all to make him double them. By chapter 8 in all routes Armors will average 7 speed. Hanneman joins with a base of 9 and has 10 strength so he can wield wind with no penalty. He needs 2 speed carrots to start doubling them, and hannemans speed growth of 20, while terrible is still higher than enemy Armors speed growths. I’ve used Hanneman in 2 of my Maddening playthroughs and he has eventually been able to double Armors.

Of course if gardening stat boosters can’t be used as a metric for rating than it will take him a while to start doubling armors which can impact his ranking, but I don’t see why they shouldn’t be seen as a metric since they’re a normal part of the game. With Gardening inwould rank Hanneman as B+, but without Gardening i can see him falling to B realistically but he will still be better than most mages at dealing with faster enemies.

4 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Hanneman is pretty much interchangeable with Dorothea, with the only difference really being that she gets Rally Charm instead of Rally Magic and learns Meteor a bit quicker.

Hanneman has much better magic than dorothea on average and as such will deal more damage than her. In terms of combat he is definitely better than her, but he lacks the utility she has with faith magic so i could see them at a similar rank anyway but they aren’t interchangable.

I honestly think Dedue should be ranked higher, as while his avalibility is a huge issue being the best unit in the early game is really valuable. Wouldn’t put him in S or anything though.

 

I agree with Glenn that Alois does rock, i want to add on that he also joins with A axes and B brawling, thats super close to the war master requirements and sooner war master = sooner quick riposte.

 

If Jeritza is in A+ than Seteth really should be for the other routes. Seteth joins with B+ authority, that’s one rank off from Cihol wyvern co, the 2nd best flier battalion in the game, as well as joining one rank away from Swift strikes, his proficiencies are insane. He also joins as a wyvern with no investment requires and he has some insane Hp/Ste/Def. His only real problems are lack of part 1 and the fact he has to go back into soldier and brigand to pick up some skills but the payoff is very worthit.

 

some other ranking requirements would be nice as Lonerecon mentioned.

 

 

[Ari Chan]

For Crimson Flower Tier List:

- Dorothea's a bit low on her own route, you didn't mention mention Meteor at all, 10+ range Hit rate and Gambit Boost are extremely useful late game and since she's available for the entire run it's very easy to build up her support ranks with other units to provide better bonuses. She's definitely worse as a recruit because you have to spend a lot of time building up her supports and Faith rank.

- Caspar should be way lower, bases are the worst among all students, has a weaknesses in Authority of all thing, 0 utility, 0 good Combat Arts and mediocre growths ensure that he stays shit for the entire run, even bad units like Raphael comes with better bases and Rally Strength.  

- Marianne should be higher, she basically has monopoly on Silence considering Manuela is pretty bad as a unit and you already have Linhardt for Warp. This spell is incredibly useful later on since some of the most dangerous enemies are those with siege tomes and walking nuke Gremories, she also has Thoron + Riding strength and recruiting her is very easy ( D+ Riding if you have at least C support with her).

 

Lysithea does get Warp way earlier than her competitors even as a recruit considering her personal and getting from B to A rank takes the same amount of xp as getting from E to B. I don't think she should be any higher tho because of her bad recruitment conditions.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Ari Chan

[LoneRecon400]

4 hours ago, Geenoble said:

While Hanneman will struggle to double Armors even at base but it doesn’t take much at all to make him double them with speed carrots to start doubling them,

Hanneman has much better magic than dorothea on average and as such will deal more damage than her. In terms of combat he is definitely better than her.

Hanneman doesn't even need any Speed Carrots if you're willing to fish and cook bullhead meals for all of your units. His Speed also increases to the class base of 14 when he promotes to Warlock, so doubling armors should give him no issues by that point. 

Dorothea averages ~18 Magic by level 15. Combine that with Magic +2 from Monk, and she'll have the same magic as him by that point while Hanneman won't have the time to master monk. About the only difference is Hanneman learns Ragnarock a bit sooner in exchange for learning Meteor later. 

3 hours ago, Ari Chan said:

Marianne should be higher, she basically has monopoly on Silence considering Manuela is pretty bad as a unit and you already have Linhardt for Warp. This spell is incredibly useful later on since some of the most dangerous enemies are those with siege tomes and walking nuke Gremories, she also has Thoron + Riding strength and recruiting her is very easy

I never found Silence to be a particularly worthwhile. Most mages can be killed off rather easily with brave weapons of Combat Art. About the only ones who present any issue are Siege users, and by that point you can easily have a unit stacked on Avoid and Retribution to just simply take them out. 

Even if you don't have a unit with 100+ avoid, there's still several ways rendering them a non issue such as having them attack a unit with Wrath + Vantage, using the Sacred Shield Gambit, or just waiting out their uses with Impregnable Wall. Meteor does only have 2 uses in their hands, after all.

Also, Marianne does not autolevel Reason when recruited, only Swords and Faith. So it can be difficult to get her into a offensive inclined class such as Gremory or Dark Knight. 

Edited January 8, 2020 by LoneRecon400

[leesangstar10]

9 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

There should be extra criteria to clarify things, especially regarding Monastery Useage. How much Aux Battles should be allowed, for example? Should Fishing for Bullheads be accepted? What about for Professor Exp? Rigging for Promotions? And what of Stat Boosters and Gifts obtained through Gardening?

 

I can agree with monastery usage, but stat booster and stuff I think isn't necessary with to add because if one unit can get something, so can the others unless they have bench line stats.

9 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

I also think you should also just remove the recruitable units from the list and just put them all into one list. Would make it much more concise and easier to read.

I guess I could do that, but at least for me I want to punish units more for being later recruitable on CF since it is so short, but I just realized now I haven't really done that.

9 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

-Byleth's description should really emphasize Faculty Training. That feature can allow them to quickly accumulate enough Skill Exp to pick up skills otherwise inconvenient to get such as Weight -3 or Healing Focus.

I will include your description! It took me so long to even make the tier list so sorry for my explanation being crap. I plan on updating as it goes.

9 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

 -While Jertiza is worthy of his position, Distant Counter isn't that useful as it takes a 100 battles to obtain. On a no grind play through, that's so late it really doesn't come into play at all. Add to the fact that the Gambit Retribution does the same thing anyways and it really doesn't stand to be mentioned.

-Sylvain's description can stand to mention how benefits from +3 Attack from his Ingrid and Felix support.

Can't you use the knowledge gem to make the process faster? Also I said I will not consider team synergy so that does include retribution and support bonus.

9 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

- Shamir does not fall off at any point if she stays as a Sniper. Speed issues are a complete non issue for her thanks to Hunter's Volley. Adding on the Killer Bow, Bow Crit+10, a battalion with high amounts of Crit, and her High Dexterity and Luck means she can reach 80+ Crit Rates rather easily.

Personally I found her best build to be falcon knight since it gives her a better player and enemy phase. Sure hunter volley is amazing, but staying as sniper makes her player phase exclusive, but ig this gives her flexibility if you have too many fliers.

9 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

-Ingird is not a Pegasus Knight by Chapter 5. Even when she becomes more autoleveled as one, she's not anything particularly special outside of her speed. Autolevling doesn't level Flight either, so it's going to put off learning Alert Stance + by a substantial amount. 

Yeah opps I meant after ch5. But still Pegasus knight has the best auto level growths. Additional 15 str and 10 spd is amazing. When you recruit her early shes solid and even late her bases are absurd. She's probably the only recruitable student along with Petra that even has a chance doubling.

9 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

-Dorothea's early game is less that stellar due to Thoron being limited to 4 uses and having shaky accuracy for most of the early game. She's certainly not better than Hubert.

Mages in general doesn't do that well in maddening. Shes only above Hubert due to the fact that she can also provide support.

9 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

-Speaking of which, Hubert most certainly needs more credit for learning Mire as soon C Reason and providing a +Attack Support with Edelgard. Frozen Lance as a Budding Talent is also useful for the early game. 

As I said not accounting team synergy. Ig frozen lance is really good early game haven't thought about that, but I don't think its really enough that I can rank him any higher than B+. Idk we'll see.

9 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

-Felix is not at all difficult to recruit considering that raising his Support to B lowers the Sword Requirement to D+. Unfortunately, he is also a terrible unit to recruit since he only trains Swords and Brawling, which makes him that much harder to reach good classes like Wyvern or Bow Knight. And that's not to mention his Authority Bane

 -Likewise, Lysithea only requires D+ Faith to be recruited at B Rank Support. Her learning Warp at B Faith also makes her instantly A Tier at least. Mastermind is also skill that should get mention for allowing her to obtain Fiendish Blow more easily and allowing to her reach S reason much sooner than most other mages.   

Requiring B support imo is lots of investment in felix's case because you would want to recruit him fast as possible. I prob should add that to be a bit more clear. Again sorry for my shit explanation. Same with Lysithea you would want to recruit her fast as possible to get fiendish blow and early warp. I was though debating putting her in A or not though. I thought putting her higher is overrating warp, but if enough people want her up then I'll bump her.

9 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

-Caspar is easily the worst unit in the route. 6 Base Speed with no impressive Attack or Combat Arts gives him no niche and leave him rather useless until Advanced class bases and Deathblow start to kick in. Authority Bane is also rather ouch.

His best performance is CF and SS though. But I do agree he does suck. I might move him down. I just think he should at least be a tier above Ashe since he'll prob do better as wyvern.

10 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Hanneman is pretty much interchangeable with Dorothea, with the only difference really being that she gets Rally Charm instead of Rally Magic and learns Meteor a bit quicker.

Again lack of utility brings him down. By the time he joins Dorothea has physics. Honestly thats whats really carrying her placement. Maybe I'm overrating it.

10 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

-Ignatz has a boon in Authority, making him capable of using the really useful A rank Battalions sooner, such Indech Sword Fighters for Retribution, or Dance of the Goddess on the Blue Lions Route.

The problem is that auto level he trains in sword and bows. So when you recruit him his authority rank isn't that high.

10 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

-Annette is more certainly not C Tier, as her rallies alone ensure that she's at least B tier. She also makes for a very competent Wyvern rider with the Lighting Axe Combat Art and the Bolt Axe, which is a rather unique niche.

I heard mixed opinions on the wyvern build so honestly I don't know how I would rank her in that case, but her rallies are only really useful early game. By the time you recruit her she's and get her authority rank high enough, rallies aren't going to be that useful.

8 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Dorothea's early game is the weakest aspect of the character. With her weakness in Faith, you can't even pick up a basic heal spell in time for Chapter 2, one of the hardest chapters in the game. I'm not sure I even got it in time for Chapter 3 in my playthrough. By the time I unlocked her budding talent she wasn't even E+ rank. All she brings to the table for these early fights is her four thunder spells and nothing else with that 5 strength. And if she could at least heal she could gain experience outside of combat. Getting her level ups on those four thunder spells is a nightmare I'd never want to repeat. Especially since her thunder spell will see 70-80 accuracy for those kills due to linked attack bonuses not yet being strong enough to help her. And her mid and late game aren't at all noteworthy compared to other mages. She just becomes passable.

Okay I should prob update the description then. But I do think physics and 3 range does put her at least in B+. For in house physics users I put them all at least A except her to punish that.

8 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

I think it should be emphasized how bad a weakness in authority is. You really got to spend instruction sessions patching it up on those units. Just equipping them with a battalion isn't enough. And there's no class in the game that provides a bonus in authority gains, besides classes exclusive to Byleth and the Lords. For example, you need to see 100 rounds of combat just to go from E to D. It's ridiculous, and especially hurts recruited units since they don't have as much time to work on it over the course of the game as your initial class does.

Yep I think I underestimated authority too much. Def should punish felix and hilda more if recruited.

3 hours ago, Ari Chan said:

- Marianne should be higher, she basically has monopoly on Silence considering Manuela is pretty bad as a unit and you already have Linhardt for Warp. This spell is incredibly useful later on since some of the most dangerous enemies are those with siege tomes and walking nuke Gremories, she also has Thoron + Riding strength and recruiting her is very easy ( D+ Riding if you have at least C support with her).

I feel silence is very niche. Most of my playthroughs I found just using physics on a unit is better.

[Shadow Mir]

12 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

Spoiler

Raphael: Meh auto levels. Terrible growths and weapon proficiency. Has

 

Has what? Because this is an incomplete thought.

[leesangstar10]

9 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Has what? Because this is an incomplete thought.

Opps sorry still work in progress. I think i meant Has terrible growths and weapon proficiency.

5 hours ago, Geenoble said:

I agree with Glenn that Alois does rock, i want to add on that he also joins with A axes and B brawling, thats super close to the war master requirements and sooner war master = sooner quick riposte.

He's only C+ in CF due to how short it is. You only get like 6 ch to use him. He's realistically not hitting it until like the last 2 chs.

CF changes:

• Lysithea top of B+
• Caspar down to C+
• Annette up to C+

SS changes:

• Lysithea top of B+
• Caspar down to C+
• Hilda down to B
• Annette up to C+

VW changes:

• Annette up to C+

Thoughts?

Also thanks for helping with the explanation. Honestly really need the help.

[LoneRecon400]

12 minutes ago, leesangstar10 said:

I can agree with monastery usage, but stat booster and stuff I think isn't necessary with to add because if one unit can get something, so can the others unless they have bench line stats.I guess I could add all the recruitables  into one list, but at least for me I want to punish units more for being later recruitable on CF since it is so short.

-Can't you use the knowledge gem to make Jeritza master Death Knight faster? Also I said I will not consider team synergy so that does include retribution and support bonus.

-Personally I found the best build for Shamir to be falcon knight since it gives her a better player and enemy phase. Sure hunter volley is amazing, but staying as sniper makes her player phase exclusive, but ig this gives her flexibility if you have too many fliers.

-Ingird really benefits Pegasus knight has the best auto level growths. Additional 15 str and 10 spd is amazing. When you recruit her early shes solid and even late her bases are absurd. She's probably the only recruitable student along with Petra that even has a chance doubling.

-Requiring B support imo is lots of investment.

-Caspar's best performance is CF and SS though

-The lack of utility really brings Hanneman down. By the time he joins Dorothea has physics. Honestly that's whats really carrying her placement. Maybe I'm overrating it.

The problem with Ignatz is that he only auto levels in sword and bows. So when you recruit him his authority rank isn't that high.

I heard mixed opinions on the wyvern build with Annette so I honestly don't know how I would rank her in that case, but her rallies are only really useful early game. By the time you recruit her she's and get her authority rank high enough, rallies aren't going to be that useful.

That still leaves questions about the Monastery. Cooked Bullheads benefit the entire Roster equally, but i'm not sure if people really want to spend an half an hour fishing on Fistful of Fish just because it becomes really tedious on repeat playthroughs. I'd also question how Paralogues would be handled as well, since the rewards and Exp in those battles tend to be pretty valuable, but they're not included in a unit's performance.

As for Units:

 - Jertiza can use the Knowledge Gem to Master Death Knight in 50 battles. Issue with that is it would deprive him an accessory slot that he might have wanted to use to equip a shield or Accuracy Ring.

-The thing about Shamir is that her Speed will never be enough to naturally double without some substantial amounts of investment and she'd wouldn't have to defense to see many rounds of combat in the enemy phase on Maddening. It's better to keep her in Sniper since she'd never have to worry about Speed and she could Master it before most units could even qualify in it.

- I disagree that an Autoleveled Ingrid is particular special. Even if she's recurred as far as Chapter 9, she'll be at level 17 and have 38 HP / 16 Str / 22 Spd / 14 Def / 22 Res. The thing that makes it less impressive is that those are effectively Wyvern Bases, as the class has a base of 31 HP / 21 Str / 17 Spd / 14 Def. So really anyone speedy can replicate her performance as a unit, as a unit like Leonie matches her Speed base when you take away class bases.

- B Supports become more and more easier to get it as the game goes on. With 10 Meals and 20 Gifts, you can raise any unit's support to B rank, or just 20 Gifts if they like a particular flower like Lorenz.  

- On the contrary with Caspar, the Black Eagles route is his worst performance. While on other routes you can simply recruit him later to avoid dealing with his initial Bases, he must see combat with terrible bases to improve. With how much better other units are statwise and without a unique niche to call his own, there's really nothing preventing from being bottom tier.

- Physic doesn't really matter on units that aren't Bishops due to how low they heal for. Physic only has a might of 8 and and Magic only adds a point of healing for every three points of it. So even if Dorothea had 30 Magic, she'd only heal for 18 HP, which is not a particularly substantial amount late game.

- The thing that offsets Ignatz's lack of autoleveling Authority is his recruitment requirement. B authority is not exactly a demanding skill on Byleth, so he can easily be recruited by Chapter 7 and have A Authority by the time the A rank battalions show up.

-Wyvern Annette is a pretty decent unit as she's capable of oneshoting a great deal of enemies with Lighting Axe. even on Maddening, and is then capable of being able to canto out of danger. And while I may admit that Rally Speed may come a bit too late to be particular useful when not on Blue Lions route, Rally Strength can be useful in allowing something like Warmasters to deal that much more damage to monsters or allowing units to one round enemies with Brave Weapons or combat arts so they don't eat counter.

[Geenoble]

2 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Dorothea averages ~18 Magic by level 15. Combine that with Magic +2 from Monk, and she'll have the same magic as him by that point while Hanneman won't have the time to master monk. About the only difference is Hanneman learns Ragnarock a bit sooner in exchange for learning Meteor later. 

Hanneman does have a higher growth so in the long run his magic will still stay on top of hers. I will admit that there will be a point where she has higher damage since she will get fiendish blow before him but he should be able to catch up eventually. He will also reach Dark knight rather easily in comparison to her, and Dark knight has the most damage out of any magic class. Also her needing magic +2 to meet his magic means that later in the game when you might want to equip other skills her magic will fall further.

2 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Hanneman doesn't even need any Speed Carrots if you're willing to fish and cook bullhead meals for all of your units. His Speed also increases to the class base of 14 when he promotes to Warlock, so doubling armors should give him no issues by that point. 

i also forget about bullheads alot despite doing fistfuls of fish every playthrough. I never really use the fish and just focus on the professor exp.

2 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

never found Silence to be a particularly worthwhile. Most mages can be killed off rather easily with brave weapons of Combat Art. About the only ones who present any issue are Siege users, and by that point you can easily have a unit stacked on Avoid and Retribution to just simply take them out. 

Even if you don't have a unit with 100+ avoid, there's still several ways rendering them a non issue such as having them attack a unit with Wrath + Vantage, using the Sacred Shield Gambit, or just waiting out their uses with Impregnable Wall. Meteor does only have 2 uses in their hands, after all.

Also, Marianne does not autolevel Reason when recruited, only Swords and Faith. So it can be difficult to get her into a offensive inclined class such as Gremory or Dark Knight. 

Completely agree about Silence. The only times I’ve ever had to use it was when i messed up and forgot to kill a mage, otherwise i would much prefer something like Fortify, Ward, Rescue or Warp.

1 hour ago, leesangstar10 said:

Can't you use the knowledge gem to make the process faster? Also I said I will not consider team synergy so that does include retribution and support bonus.

Since you aren’t considering team synergy i assume that means Guard adjutant’s don’t matter either, since obviously you can say that Raph joins in Brawler being a free guard adjutant as a reason to make him better, but that isn’t him as a unit and more around either his linked attack with Ignatz or his class.

 

1 hour ago, leesangstar10 said:

He's only C+ in CF due to how short it is. You only get like 6 ch to use him. He's realistically not hitting it until like the last 2 chs.

I was more referring to how he should be higher on non CF routes as obviously only being available for 7 chapters + paralouges kind of sucks, but i still think he should be higher on CF since due to aux battles he still can realistically get something like Quick Riposte or Wrath/Vantage before the end game using Knowledge gem.
 

For Alois in all routes, he’s also one armor rank away from Fortress Knight, which is actually pretty good on Maddening since the 10 defence modifier is massive and allows units to bait in things like Assasins or Falcon Knights safely in an rng proof way. Quick Riposte can also fix Armors speed issues, which Alois is also close too.

1 hour ago, leesangstar10 said:

Hilda down to B

I honestly think she should be lower. Not only do you have to get her to B rank to recruit her, she also only has ranks in Axe and Lance. Her ranks aren’t even at A so she can’t guarantee a promotion to Warrior, and she will have terrible skills. She joins with E authority in chapter 12. For a physical combat unit like her that’s almost inexcusable, it’s fine for healers since you just shove stride on them but she will be stuck with Jeralts mercenaries at best for a long time, and due to her bane will probably only manage to reach C by chapter 15 without extensive favouritism. She also has no flying rank, which means she will have trouble getting into her best class. It isn’t impossible to salvage her but she isn’t good by any means. She’s like a slightly better Cyril on SS. 
Move her down to C+ or bottom of B imo,

 

43 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Jertiza can use the Knowledge Gem to Master Death Knight in 50 battles. Issue with that is it would deprive him an accessory slot that he might have wanted to use to equip a shield or Accuracy Ring.

Doesn’t his mastermind skill stack with the knowledge gem? That means he either needs 25 rounds of combat (my math may be wrong) or he can still have another item equipped and just sacrifice a skill slot (which at the beginning of the timeskip he won’t really have any skills to compete with mastermind) and get it in 50.

ofc imo Counter attack isn’t what makes Jeritza good imo, he’s good because of his great bases and weapon ranks, he’s the Seteth of CF.

[LoneRecon400]

2 minutes ago, Geenoble said:

Hanneman will also reach Dark knight rather easily in comparison to Dorothea, and Dark knight has the most damage out of any magic class. 

Doesn’t Jeritza's Mastermind skill stack with the knowledge gem? That means he either needs 25 rounds of combat.

You only need C+ Riding to have ~50% chance of passing the Dark Knight Certification. That requires 480 Riding Exp. 

Having Riding as a weekly goal will grant her 16 Skill exp a week. With the Maculi Statue bonus, she'll gain 16 from tutoring sessions at minimum. We'll assume it averages out to 20 thanks to Greats and Prefects. This results in her gaining 36 Riding Exp every week, meaning she'll need about 14 weeks to reach C+ Riding. 

Assuming that she reaches level 20 during Chapter 8 and reaches level 30 by Chapter 14, this will give her the amount of time needed to reach C+ Riding.

And while 50% may sound rather unlikely, keep in mind that is over the course of 5 chances. And there's no penalty at all as long as one isn't against resetting if she fails the Ceteification.

----------

I completely forgot that Jertiza gets Mastermind. Still, Mastermind is Additive, so he gets + 6 Class exp (2 natural gain + 2 Knowledge Gem +2 Mastermind) rather than multiplicative for +8, so it'll take him 34 battles to learn with the Knowledge Gem, or 50 without.

So it looks like it could come into play more easily than I thought. Still, I think it better for him to go into a class like Wyvern to get more movement and ignore some of terrain that will really slow him down in the later maps of Crimson Flower. 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

1 hour ago, LoneRecon400 said:

- On the contrary with Caspar, the Black Eagles route is his worst performance. While on other routes you can simply recruit him later to avoid dealing with his initial Bases, he must see combat with terrible bases to improve. With how much better other units are statwise and without a unique niche to call his own, there's really nothing preventing from being bottom tier.

This is a difficult situation due to Caspar's authority bane. With instruction lessons, the player can easily reach C rank authority on Caspar by the end of pre-time skip without neglecting his two other ranks he cares about, but if Caspar isn't raised from level 1, then he'll be stuck with bad battalions even longer. Brawlers really appreciate physical attack boosts, and charm boosts can patch up Caspar's poor charm stat. Being late on class masteries also hurts like hell unless the player is willing to grind. 

Saying "this character is best recruited to avoid his awful early game" sounds smart until you realize every unit except Byleth is garbage in early game, and you just gotta push through. And of the 11-12 recruitable units in BL and GD, are you really picking Caspar for your crew? My SS Caspar turned out alright. Once he had +2 strength, Death Blow, and Bombard, he one rounded any generic enemy without retaliation and hasn't stopped since then. +20 damage is just that good. Recruit!Caspar would have a lot of things to catch up on along with the bad authority rank. So I think SS and then CF are his best performance for sure.

[Geenoble]

15 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

You only need C+ Riding to have ~50% chance of passing the Dark Knight Certification. That requires 480 Riding Exp. 

Oh it isn’t impossible, but op said that rng things wouldn’t count and i assume that also means rng chance to pass exams, in which case Hanneman has the edge. Dorothea is fine in either class anyway, it’s basically less effort for better utility or more effort for better move and combat. I Think Hanneman is better in am and vw since he’s easier to recruit, and his combat is better anyway but i’ll talk about other units from now on since im pretty happy with his consistent placing, especially since ive seen people call him D tier.

 

15 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

I completely forgot that Jertiza gets Mastermind. Still, Mastermind is Additive, so he gets + 6 Class exp (2 natural gain + 2 Knowledge Gem +2 Mastermind) rather than multiplicative for +8, so it'll take him 34 battles to learn with the Knowledge Gem, or 50 without.

So it looks like it could come into play more easily than I thought. Still, I think it better for him to go into a class like Wyvern to get more movement and ignore some of terrain that will really slow him down in the later maps of Crimson Flower. 

So it’s additive, and that’s most likely the same for Lysithea so that’s good to know. I’ve only done CF maddening once and i used him as a Death Knight. His performance was very solid, and he was amazing in some of the earlier maps but i found myself constantly having to dismount him losing out on that sweet canto bonus in chapter 17 and 18. I agree with Wyvern and will do it for all future non-meme playthroughs. He joins with C+ in Axes anyway which is super close to Wyvern rider and with Mastermind and Wyverns rank bonuses it shouldn’t take him too long to get the ranks for Wyvern rider so long as you activate his budding talent. He also has C+ Brawling at base so i assume he would make a pretty solid War Master, but War Master is probably the best Physical infantry class in the game and even Caspar can make a good WM but he can make it to the ranks with a bit of effort. 

[Shadow Mir]

13 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

-Annette is more certainly not C Tier, as her rallies alone ensure that she's at least B tier. She also makes for a very competent Wyvern rider with the Lighting Axe Combat Art and the Bolt Axe, which is a rather unique niche.

 

The issue I have with this is accuracy problems - the Bolt Axe has only 60 accuracy. This isn't helped by nearly all of the battalions that give a big boost to hit being grounded. Nor does it that magic weapons lose durability even on missed attacks. As if that weren't enough, the limited amount of Arcane Crystals you can get for free means that the Bolt Axe will be expensive to repair (2000 gold for 4 Arcane Crystals and 1440 to repair. That's almost as expensive to repair as a Relic weapon!).

Just to put things into perspective, here are all the Battalions that have 15+ hit boosts (route exclusive battalions are color coded: for your convenience):

-Seiros Archers. 15 Hit. Grounded.
-Indech Sword Fighters. 20 Hit. A rank. Grounded.
-Macuil Evil Repelling Co. 30 Hit. A rank. Grounded.
-Empire Archers. 15 hit. Grounded.
-Empire Pegasus Co. 15 hit. Flying.
-Black Eagle Cavalry. 20 hit. A rank. Grounded.
-Empire Heavy Soldiers. 15 hit. Grounded.
-Kingdom Snipers. 15 hit. Grounded.
-Kingdom Brave Lance Co. 20 hit. Grounded.
-Kingdom Wyvern Co. 15 hit. Flying.
-Kingdom Heavy Knights. 15 hit. Grounded.
-Royal Guard. 20 hit. Grounded.
-Alliance Snipers. 15 hit. Grounded.
-Golden Deer Archers. 25 hit. A rank. Grounded.
-School of Sorcery Soldiers. 20 hit. Grounded.
-Varley Archers. 30 hit. Grounded.
-Cichol Wyvern Co. 15 hit. A rank. Flying.
-Cethleann Monks. 20 hit. A rank. Grounded.
-Edmund Troops. 40 hit. Grounded.
-Leicester Mercenaries. 20 hit. Grounded.
-Victor Private Military. 15 hit. Grounded.
-Gloucester Knights. 15 hit. Grounded.
-Opera Co. Volunteers. 20 hit. Grounded. Requires Dorothea. Unavailable on Crimson Flower.
-Ordelia Sorcery Co. 20 hit. Grounded. Unavailable on Crimson Flower.
-Goneril Valkyries. 20 hit. Grounded. Unavailable on Crimson Flower.
-Sauin Militia. 20 hit. Grounded.

As you can see. virtually all the battalions with sizable hit boosts are grounded.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[eclipse]

8 hours ago, Geenoble said:

So this is how you make a proper tier list post i guess. Much better than the one i made so i doubt this will get locked.

If you have an issue with me locking your topic, sort it out with me via PM.  I will gladly go into detail.  Otherwise, keep these comments to yourself.

As in, pull this shit again and I will warn you.

---

If I'm reading the CF explanations right, everyone is assumed to be a flying unit or a mage.  I can't really justify this in my mind, because of a general lack of flying battalions.  This also completely ignores the horse classes - Holy/Dark Knight have their uses (Holy Knight for emergency healing, Dark Knight for Thoron on a horse), and Bow Knight is amazing. . .coincidentally, Bernie's talents scream "make me a Bow Knight".

[LoneRecon400]

41 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

This is a difficult situation due to Caspar's authority bane, as he can reach C rank authority by the end of pre-time skip without neglecting  other ranks when he's raised from level 1. If he's recruited instead, he'll be stuck with bad battalions for a long period of time. 

Saying "this character is best recruited to avoid his awful early game" sounds smart until you realize every unit except Byleth is garbage in early game, and you just gotta push through.

My SS Caspar turned out alright. Once he had +2 strength, Death Blow, and Bombard, he one rounded any generic enemy without retaliation and hasn't stopped since then. +20 damage is just that good. Recruit!Caspar would have a lot of things to catch up on along with the bad authority rank. 

I think a recruited Caspar's Authority Bane is being a overplayed a bit. There are plenty of good low ranked battalions for Caspar to use, even if they're not top tier ones. The faction Brawler battalions, for example, all give +4 Strength at E rank, so having a immediate low authority rank isn't all that bad.

It's also not difficult at all to raise Caspar's Authority to C rank as well. With Byleth's Authority and the +1 Authority from the Cichol Statue, Caspar is often gaining ~25 Authority Exp from each lecture. Add on + 16 from weekly training and Caspar can reach C Rank Authority in as little as 7 weeks of training. 

By that rank, there's plenty of good battalion options avaible to him. From  Victor Private Millita Battalion giving him for +6 Strength and +15 hit, to the Faction Knight Battalions giving him +5/+4 Strength and +4 Defense, to all of the Impregnable Wall battalions.

While Authority is certainly useful, it's not the end all be all when discussing recurited units. 

As for Starting House Caspar, while most units don't start great at the beginning, most have at least some way to contribute. Some units can provide ranged damage through magic or bows, some can heal, and some even low tier units can provide things like Rally Strength or Tempest Lance. Caspar has nothing like that going for him in the beginning on top of some the worst bases in the game. 

The issue with starting Caspar is by the time he becomes useful, almost any male unit will be having the same performance as him. He often doesn't break the class base Strength of Grappler, Bombard is a nonfactor in the presence of Fierce Iron Fist, and it isn't difficult for any unit to reach Deathblow. 

1 hour ago, Geenoble said:

TC said that rng things wouldn’t count and i assume that also means rng chance to pass exams, in which case Hanneman has the edge.

Really, if TC banned promotion rigging entirely, even Hanneman would have a difficult time certifying as a Dark Knight.

It takes 1220 Skill exp to go from D to A rank. If we assumed that Hanneman got 40 Skill exp from instructing and 24 from weekly training, it'd still take him almost 20 weeks of just uninterrupted Riding instruction to reach. If we recruited him in chapter 8, he wouldn't be able to promote to Dark Knight until Chapter 15! 

But putting that aside, I will concede that Hanneman is marginal better since he is easier to recruit and learns Ragnarock faster than Dorothea learns Agnea's Arrow by a substantial amount (A vs A +). I still maintain that their combat is largely similar, however.

[leesangstar10]

4 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

That still leaves questions about the Monastery. Cooked Bullheads benefit the entire Roster equally, but i'm not sure if people really want to spend an half an hour fishing on Fistful of Fish just because it becomes really tedious on repeat playthroughs. I'd also question how Paralogues would be handled as well, since the rewards and Exp in those battles tend to be pretty valuable, but they're not included in a unit's performance.

I personally found myself doing 1 week of paralogues/aux battles per month. Idk what other people do. Ig they are useful for class mastery, but idk its really hard to gauge. We could do like an average on what other ppl do.

4 hours ago, Geenoble said:

Since you aren’t considering team synergy i assume that means Guard adjutant’s don’t matter either, since obviously you can say that Raph joins in Brawler being a free guard adjutant as a reason to make him better, but that isn’t him as a unit and more around either his linked attack with Ignatz or his class.

Correct. I am looking at them individually.

4 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

- I disagree that an Autoleveled Ingrid is particular special. Even if she's recurred as far as Chapter 9, she'll be at level 17 and have 38 HP / 16 Str / 22 Spd / 14 Def / 22 Res. The thing that makes it less impressive is that those are effectively Wyvern Bases, as the class has a base of 31 HP / 21 Str / 17 Spd / 14 Def. So really anyone speedy can replicate her performance as a unit, as a unit like Leonie matches her Speed base when you take away class bases.

hmmm maybe I am overestimating it.

3 hours ago, Geenoble said:

Oh it isn’t impossible, but op said that rng things wouldn’t count and i assume that also means rng chance to pass exams, in which case Hanneman has the edge. Dorothea is fine in either class anyway, it’s basically less effort for better utility or more effort for better move and combat. I Think Hanneman is better in am and vw since he’s easier to recruit, and his combat is better anyway but i’ll talk about other units from now on since im pretty happy with his consistent placing, especially since ive seen people call him D tier.

oh when I meant by rng strats I meant by using divine pulse repeatedly to get a kill or something. I've seen ppl say that Caspar is good because you could use wild abandon. Could just reset whenever he is hit and theres so much divine pulse. Im fine with min certification.

2 hours ago, eclipse said:

If I'm reading the CF explanations right, everyone is assumed to be a flying unit or a mage.  I can't really justify this in my mind, because of a general lack of flying battalions.  This also completely ignores the horse classes - Holy/Dark Knight have their uses (Holy Knight for emergency healing, Dark Knight for Thoron on a horse), and Bow Knight is amazing. . .coincidentally, Bernie's talents scream "make me a Bow Knight".

I am judging them individually. Ig saying no team synergy wasn't enough. I'll change the rules so its more specific. I only suggested Bernie could provide flying utility as an option. I should prob focus on editing the OP lol.

Edited January 8, 2020 by leesangstar10

[Zapp Branniglenn]

3 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

I think a recruited Caspar's Authority Bane is being a overplayed a bit. There are plenty of good low ranked battalions for Caspar to use, even if they're not top tier ones. The faction Brawler battalions, for example, all give +4 Strength at E rank, so having a immediate low authority rank isn't all that bad.

It's also not difficult at all to raise Caspar's Authority to C rank as well. With Byleth's Authority and the +1 Authority from the Cichol Statue, Caspar is often gaining ~25 Authority Exp from each lecture. Add on + 16 from weekly training and Caspar can reach C Rank Authority in as little as 7 weeks of training. 

"7 weeks of training" downplays it considerably. Not every week has weekly training or instruction sessions. Your math is also off because if it were 41 a week he'd need 8, not 7. Three months of instructing nothing but authority and keeping him motivated, leaving no time for battles of any kind right at a point of the game where paralogues start to appear and let you power up considerably with good items and more levels. And is 16 from weekly training a sole focus? I don't have these numbers memorized. And maybe I want other useful things like bombard, and healing focus which get pushed down the line. Or maybe I want to do battles to grind out fighter and brigand masteries. This isn't as free as you suggest.

Quote

As for Starting House Caspar, while most units don't start great at the beginning, most have at least some way to contribute. Some units can provide ranged damage through magic or bows, some can heal, and some even low tier units can provide things like Rally Strength or Tempest Lance. Caspar has nothing like that going for him in the beginning on top of some the worst bases in the game. 

I had been complaining about Caspar's starting bases for a while when I started. The only physical fighter who compares is Bernadetta, swapping one point of strength for a point in speed. But Smash is still guaranteed damage at the beginning, and the only way through those first chapters is with all hands on deck. Having any unit sit out on the action would not only be pointless but detrimental to clearing the map. His personal is also a good boon for more units than himself.

Quote

The issue with starting Caspar is by the time he becomes useful, almost any male unit will be having the same performance as him. He often doesn't break the class base Strength of Grappler, Bombard is a nonfactor in the presence of Fierce Iron Fist, and it isn't difficult for any unit to reach Deathblow. 

Bombard isn't competing with fierce iron fist. Non recruited Caspar getting bombard is like, chapter 6. Caspar mastering Grappler is chapter 12/13. That's a big chunk of game, including all of the pre-timeskip paralogues.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Glennstavos

[OCDbox]

I'm going to reference my own playthrough for GD route as grounds for the claims I'll be making (61 turns main game, 31 turns for all paralogues, 3 aux, 11 quest): 

https://forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/88993-golden-deer-ltc-playthrough-maddening-new-game-all-quests-and-paralogues-no-dlc/

Even if you ignore my crit based LTC strategies, I would say it's pretty optimized for efficiency goals as well.

I think there's some assumptions made when looking at the game in theory that do not hold true in practice when playing the game "efficiently":

1) Enemy stats benchmarks are really high and honestly swiftstrikes/pointblank volley even with high might weapons will not automatically 1RKO enemies like hard mode (honestly killer weapon+  with crit+ combat arts and battalions are the most reliable ways to beat enemies for most "decent stat characters")

2) In general, mages past early game who do not offer movement based skills (warp and rescue) are REALLY inefficient as combat units (compared to a wyvern rider)

3) Similarly, physics "healers" are simply not necessary beyond earlygame (which gives Marianne a pass)

4) Dodge tanking lategame is really the only way to have any decent enemy phase for any rout map lategame (Petra's paralogue, Ferdinand's paralogue, etc); battalion wrath IMO is the strongest battalion since 1RKO's on enemy phase are pretty reliable if they can survive via dodge tanking. 

-Lysithea should be S tier for huge range warp; 1 turn endgame being possible via 2 hits of luna; 1HKO potential and valid Nosferatu tanking in some situations (AKA warp and good combat utility).

-Manuela learns Warp around the same time as Linhardt and should be in the same tier (1 below Lysithea) at A+

-Flayn should be B+ because rescue tangibly saves turns and gives Seteth and Byleth + might supports. IMO she should be A if this was LTC.

-Marianne should move down to B because healing is really only relevant chapters 2-7, but not further because she is actually available for healing when it mattered unlike the other mages. Also not that it matters, but due to her position in chapter 13, she is probably your best choice for dancer.

-Caspar can be recruited late and offer solid combat as filler Wyvern should be moved to B+ (he also has battalion wrath if you put some effort into him). Keep in mind he comes back at level 26 if you recruit him at the last possible month.

-Petra is probably the best recruit and should be A for access to battalion wrath and probably worth using throughout the game.

-Ingrid down to B+ or B. Honestly the only thing good about her are rally magic and free flier; her stats do not compare favorably to other recruits used for combat: Caspar, Sylvain, Ferdinand, Felix, Catherine, Shamir, Petra, etc; she as not good combat arts: no swiftstrikes, no PBV, no battalion wrath, no crit+ combat arts.

-Sylvain (f) to B+ (if you use him), he honestly isn't really any better than the rest of the mid/lategame combat fillers in this tier.

-Cyril to B+, honestly his stats are worse, but he's functionally not that different from the rest of the characters here in practice (you should recruit him at level 21 IMO).

-Hanneman, Dorothea, Lorenz, and Mercedes to C tier; the combat and healing is in general not worth the deployment slot over another Wyvern rider (lategame) or pegasus/cav (midgame) by the time you recruit them

-Annette to B, her rallies and authority rank alone should bring her to this tier (same reason you have rapheael and Ignatz here)

-Ignatz, Raphael, and Alois to B as well: might as make B tier the rallybot/Authority bot tier

 

IMO

S tier: Byleth, Claude, Lysithea

A tier: Leonie, Catherine, Hilda, Petra, Seteth, Lin, Manuela (warp and strong combat units)

B+ tier: Midgame and lategame combat fillers (good stats, but poor enemy phase) and Flayn (though IMO she's a A tier unit just for her support boosts and Rescue though I think people might disagree)

B tier: rally bots, authority bots, and Marianne

C tier: Mages/healers/Ashe/Bernie

 

 

Edited January 9, 2020 by OCDbox

[LoneRecon400]

3 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

"7 weeks of training" downplays it considerably. Not every week has weekly training or instruction sessions. Your math is also off because if it were 41 a week he'd need 8, not 7. Three months of instructing nothing but authority and keeping him motivated, leaving no time for battles of any kind right at a point of the game where paralogues start to appear and let you power up considerably with good items and more levels. And maybe I want other useful things like bombard, and healing focus which get pushed down the line. Or maybe I want to do battles to grind out fighter and brigand masteries. This isn't as free as you suggest. And is 16 from weekly training a sole focus? I don't have these numbers memorized.

I had been complaining about Caspar's starting bases for a while when I started. The only physical fighter who compares is Bernadetta, swapping one point of strength for a point in speed. But Smash is still guaranteed damage at the beginning, and the only way through those first chapters is with all hands on deck. Having any unit sit out on the action would not only be pointless but detrimental to clearing the map. His personal is also a good boon for more units than himself.

7 Weeks of instruction is nothing particularly significant in the grand scheme of things. Assuming if you recruited him during the beginning of Chapter 7, he could reach C rank Authority as soon as Chapter 9. And getting 13 Authority exp is a non factor since he can just gain that amount from combat. Chapter 6 Recruited Caspar also comes halfway to C+ Brawling so getting him things like Bombard or Healing focus is a non issue. This is also assuming that he isn't focusing solely on Authority during weekly training as that would mean he'd gain 24 Authority instead of 16. 

There's always enough time to feed units and do Paralogues at the end of month since there's typically a free day at the start of the month. TC also said no grinding, which I conclude to means that grinding for skill masteries is off the table. 

Regarding the early game, the exact opposite should occur. The easiest way to win the earlygame is to invest in 3-4 of units with decent base stats and largely ignore most other starting units outside of chip damage and Healing as to not spread out Experience and allow the better units to promote faster.

Getting a unit like Edelgard to level 10 before Chapter 5 , for example, will allow her to take the Armor Knight Certification for 12 Base Defense as a Brigand. That will make her much harder for the enemies to take her down when combined with say an Iron Shield and Empire Knights Battalion, making the chapter much easier. The weaker members of the starting cast can then be put on as Adjutants to be brought up to speed rather than see use with their middling bases. 

Edited January 9, 2020 by LoneRecon400

[eclipse]

3 hours ago, OCDbox said:

-Lysithea should be S tier for huge range warp; 1 turn endgame being possible via 2 hits of luna; 1HKO potential and valid Nosferatu tanking in some situations (AKA warp and good combat utility).

I'm just gonna pick this out, since it'll make the quote box a lot shorter.

What's Luna's hit rate?  Does it need to crit to be effective?

TC put the guidelines for this tier list in the first post, and I think the intent is pretty clear.  If this is something like "making 2 single-RN hits connect and possibly invoking a crit chance", then it's not what this tier list is looking for.

[OCDbox]

39 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I'm just gonna pick this out, since it'll make the quote box a lot shorter.

What's Luna's hit rate?  Does it need to crit to be effective?

TC put the guidelines for this tier list in the first post, and I think the intent is pretty clear.  If this is something like "making 2 single-RN hits connect and possibly invoking a crit chance", then it's not what this tier list is looking for.

No crits needed for Nemesis. I don't think anyone would advocate for something as extreme in a legitimate argument.

This is honestly one of the most LTC friendly (but least friend speed running) fire emblems because it's all about preparation and planning. 

Hit 1: from 3 range had ~70 displayed hit (Lysithea survives after Blessing and equipped with a guard Adjutant); Hit 2: 1 range had 100 displayed hit.

Luna has 65 hit; 20 hit from A+ reason; 30 hit from maxed; Macuil Evil Repelling Co; 50 skill +17 luck (after meals, dance, skills) for 33 hit; Linked attack: A Raphael, A Byleth, B Marianne, Seteth (not shown) for 30 hit=178 hit (188 hit with an accuracy ring)

Nemesis has something like 120 evade after you kill like 2 of his sub-bosses.

Edited January 9, 2020 by OCDbox

[leesangstar10]

4 hours ago, OCDbox said:

4) Dodge tanking lategame is really the only way to have any decent enemy phase for any rout map lategame (Petra's paralogue, Ferdinand's paralogue, etc); battalion wrath IMO is the strongest battalion since 1RKO's on enemy phase are pretty reliable if they can survive via dodge tanking. 

Dodge tanks imo is reliable enough where its not rng divine pulse abusing. You can reliably get +100 avoid (+10 evansion ring, +30 alert stance+, +15 weapon lvl, +10 avoid flier skill, +25 spd +10 battalion)- rough estimation btw.

10 minutes ago, OCDbox said:

No crits needed for Nemesis.

Hit 1: from 3 range had ~70 displayed hit (Lysithea survives after Blessing and equipped with a guard Adjutant); Hit 2 --1 range had 100 displayed hit.

Luna has 65 hit; 20 hit from A+ reason; 30 hit from maxed; Macuil Evil Repelling Co  (30 hit); 50 skill +17 luck (after meals, dance, skills) for 33 hit; Linked attack: A Raphael, A Byleth, Seteth for 23 hit=171 hit

Idk how I feel being like being able to effectively kill one boss for one map seems a little too niche for me. I will put Lysithea up top of A+ but not S for now because I forgot she is the best warper.

Update on list:

Moved Ingrid down to B+ on non house routes. Seeing now how I overestimated her auto level. Idk I do find it weird that shes on the same tier as petra though. Yeah Petra auto level stats are better, but she trains in swords and axes making it harder for her to promote to wyvern but thats just my opinion.

Also debating on Cyril's placement. I believe he should stay where he is for SS, but VW and AM I feel like he deserves a bump cause of point blank volley and great proficiency spread making him flexible too. Not sure how much to bump him though.

Edited January 9, 2020 by leesangstar10

[eclipse]

20 minutes ago, OCDbox said:

No crits needed for Nemesis. I don't think anyone would advocate for something as extreme in a legitimate argument.

This is honestly one of the most LTC friendly (but least friend speed running) fire emblems because it's all about preparation and planning. 

Hit 1: from 3 range had ~70 displayed hit (Lysithea survives after Blessing and equipped with a guard Adjutant); Hit 2: 1 range had 100 displayed hit.

Luna has 65 hit; 20 hit from A+ reason; 30 hit from maxed; Macuil Evil Repelling Co; 50 skill +17 luck (after meals, dance, skills) for 33 hit; Linked attack: A Raphael, A Byleth, B Marianne, Seteth (not shown) for 30 hit=178 hit (188 hit with an accuracy ring)

Nemesis has something like 120 evade after you kill like 2 of his sub-bosses.

Back in the day, Athos was hyped due to one-shotting the final boss (also with Luna). It required a crit.  Hence why I asked.