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Route specific tier list

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16 minutes ago, leesangstar10 said:

Dodge tanks imo is reliable enough where its not rng divine pulse abusing. You can reliably get +100 avoid (+10 evansion ring, +30 alert stance+, +15 weapon lvl, +10 avoid flier skill, +25 spd +10 battalion)- rough estimation btw.

Idk how I feel being like being able to effectively kill one boss for one map seems a little too niche for me. I will put Lysithea up top of A+ but not S for now because I forgot she is the best warper.

-Keep in mind this is pretty much the only way to do this map quickly. EX: Byleth deals 4 damage with sword of the creator as a Wyvern, Cichol wyvern maxed, and windsweep.

-Other examples of combat: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dsJb-lbInaXaBpDVB4aLL3AAglc5gODUopL8ns-iNJ8/edit

-Chapter 5 boss and killing an entire shield herself with Seraphim

-Chapter 9: basically soloing the right monster

-Sylvain paralogue: soloing the Warrior/Brawler corner

-Seteth paralogue: soloing the female Bishop corner

-Ashe paralogue: soloing the cavalier corner

-Caspar paralogue: soloing the armor knight group on the left side of the map

-Petra paralogue: soloing the central enemies below the starting area (sniper, armor knights, general, etc)

-We are also ignoring 10+ range warp is game-changing late game in...so many ways that make things like chapter 17, 22, Manuela's paralogue, Ingrid's paralogue, Rhea's paralogue, Claude's paralogue, etc: 1 turn-able, gets you DOTG without wasting several turns...there's just so many applications.

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Update on list:

Moved Ingrid down to B+ on non house routes. Seeing now how I overestimated her auto level. Idk I do find it weird that shes on the same tier as petra though. Yeah Petra auto level stats are better, but she trains in swords and axes making it harder for her to promote to wyvern but thats just my opinion.

Also debating on Cyril's placement. I believe he should stay where he is for SS, but VW and AM I feel like he deserves a bump cause of point blank volley and good proficiency spread. Not sure how much to bump him though.

-I think B+, I'd still argue that he's better than Ingrid (if recruited at level 21). 

-Petra starts with D flight and C something axes so she doesn't actually have any trouble reclassing into Wyvern (or pegasus either). She also has bane of monsters, battalion wrath (for enemy phase), and bow proficiency, and slightly better stats. I'd say she's easily a tier above Ingrid.

Edited by OCDbox

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10 hours ago, OCDbox said:

-I think B+, I'd still argue that he's better than Ingrid (if recruited at level 21). 

Could you tell me why Cyril is better recruited at level 21? Doesn't he use his non aptitude growths and commoner class growths for auto level? His bases are already bad as is.

Also should I place Dorothea a tier below Hubert? I feel like Hubert provides much more early game than Dorothea. When she gets physics it doesn't stay relevant long enough. I feel recruit!Marianne will get physics around the time Dorothea will get it so they should be in the same tier. I still think Dorothea is better but not a tier difference tbh.

Edited by leesangstar10

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2 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

Could you tell me why Cyril is better recruited at level 21? Doesn't he use his non aptitude growths and commoner class growths for auto level? His bases are already bad as is.

-It's because he instantly can promote to Wyvern the chapter he is recruited (go all in on flying) which raises his base strength to acceptable levels (21) at that point. If he has a silverbow+, he has a way to kill any flier very reliably, and assassins if already weakened; you can also gamble with PBV killer bow+. This a period of use where I felt like he was just really solid filler, I just didn't really have with Ingrid. I don't think he's a good long term investment unit though. Ingrid isn't bad-because any flier with C axes can do the Smash Killer Axe+ strategy once they reach C axes, to destroy something 50% of the time, but it'll take her some investment to get there:

-Petra has better offensive stats, bane of monsters for Wo Dao+/Killer sword+ monster kills and battalion wrath for lategame enemy phase kills. She also has bow proficiency which is nice as well for ranged killer bow stats. She also starts with C axes and D flying and transitions easily into flying classes without effort.

-Felix has better strength and temporarily powerful between his crest activation and his personal skill which is still really strong until pretty much time skip.

-Ferdie/Sylvain have good personal skills and swift strikes.

-Cyril's PBV gives him a good niche for midgame and promotion gains patch up his weak bases.

-Caspar late recruit has high enough strength he can pretty much killer axe+ smash kill pretty much anything as a Wyvern. D authority isn't THAT hard to get even with a weakness.

-On VW: Ignatz and Raphael (and Annette) are nice drop in utility for on demand Smite/Rallies/Retribution for most of the game when you need it.

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Also should I place Dorothea a tier below Hubert? I feel like Hubert provides much more early game than Dorothea. When she gets physics it doesn't stay relevant long enough. I feel recruit!Marianne will get physics around the time Dorothea will get it so they should be in the same tier. I still think Dorothea is better but not a tier difference tbh.

-Once again, I believe mages should all be C tier unless they are your route's early game healer (Marianne, Mercedes, and Linhardt--who should be A+ IMO) or offer a movement spell. Because using them solely for combat is very inefficient. I do think Hubert should be above Dorothea, but I don't think an entire tier. IMO, Dorothea is best on BE and SS, but still probably B tier a most with other "utility characters"

The issue with the tier list now is it mixes up utility and combat and doesn't look how it can be applied into a team. E.G. sometimes you need 3 warp users + Rescue and sometimes you just need Lysithea; some characters are best just recruited really late or just for mid game and then dropped at some point. I think tiers should define the roles they play throughout your playthrough and compare how well they accomplish those roles. IMO if a character with worse stats can still kill the same enemies should they be a tier below the character with better stats?

Here is a sample:

S tier: Byleth, Claude, Dimitri, Edelgard, Lysithea 

(Strong player phase AND Enemy phase/Warp-These units define how fast you can complete maps)

A: Lindhardt, Manuela, Flayn, Seteth, Catherine, GOOD starting house members for their respective route (Hilda, Leonie, Petra), Dancer character

(S tier, but less powerful-almost as strong as S tier with investment) 

B+: Shamir, Felix, Sylvain, Ferdinand (missing out on pegasus really hurts their EXP gain midgame), Caspar (late recruit non-SS/CF), Petra (non-CF), Leonie and Hilda (non-VW)

(Strong player phase/limited enemy phase power-As strong as A tier with investment, good mid/lategame filler without investment)

B: Annette (rallies/Authority), Marianne (VW), Mercedes (AM), Raphael (VW-rally/smite, AM/CF/SS-lategame filler), Ignatz (VW), Alois, Ingrid, Cyril (mid game filler)

(Rallies/Authority bots/Early game healer/Combat outclassed to B+ -Drop in situational utility, can be as good as B+ tier with investment)

C+: Hubert (CF/SS), Dorothea (CF/SS), Bernie (CF/SS), Ashe (AM)

(Earlygame contributions- helpful early on, but would require significant investment if you want to use efficiently past earlygame)

C Dorothea (AM/VW), Hannemann, Marianne (SS/CF/AM), Mercedes (VW/CF/SS), Caspar (CF/SS), Bernie (non-CF/SS, Ashe (non-AM), Ignatz (non-VW), Lorenz

(Inefficient/outclassed to use for intended role - completely outclassed, main contribution is to be the strider when force deployed)

Edited by OCDbox

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This is entirely for VW and I'd be quite happy to discuss my rankings with others!

 I'd argue that Caspar/Cyril aren't meme units on VW due to being a pretty okay filler wyvern if your Ingrid turns out bad because of decent bases and little investment except for flying for going Wyvern. Hanneman isn't really worthy of B tier imo due to how much effort needs to be put into him for him to reach Meteor. Manuela could be low A or top of B+ because of Warp but I don't know how practical this may be. Linhardt is basically better Manuela so I'd say middle of A tier for him. Annette is definitely a B tier unit because of how broken her personal and rallies are and I think Dorothea, much like Hanneman is quite awful.

 

I'd make the following tier list for VW:

 

S tier:

f-Byleth

Claude

m-Byleth

A+ tier:

Lysithea

Hilda

Catherine

A tier:

Marianne

Leonie

Linhardt

Flayn

Manuela

Seteth

Shamir

B+ tier:

Ingrid

Sylvain

Felix

Petra

Ferdinand

Raphael

Ignatz

B tier:

Cyril

Caspar

Alois

Annette

C+ tier:

Lorenz

Ashe

Bernie

C tier:

Mercedes

Hanneman

Dorothea

Edited by Ishmael

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sorry for the late response

On 1/9/2020 at 1:01 PM, OCDbox said:

The issue with the tier list now is it mixes up utility and combat and doesn't look how it can be applied into a team. E.G. sometimes you need 3 warp users + Rescue and sometimes you just need Lysithea; some characters are best just recruited really late or just for mid game and then dropped at some point. I think tiers should define the roles they play throughout your playthrough and compare how well they accomplish those roles. IMO if a character with worse stats can still kill the same enemies should they be a tier below the character with better stats?

in the rules i do state no team synergy. So 3 warp users is something I wouldn't consider. I feel like I may need to be more specific on the rules. I still think this is too LTC focused, as mentioned this tier list isn't meant for that. I feel efficiently was not well defined as it should have so I'll try fixing that.

On 1/15/2020 at 11:20 AM, Ishmael said:

I'd argue that Caspar/Cyril aren't meme units on VW due to being a pretty okay filler wyvern if your Ingrid turns out bad because of decent bases and little investment except for flying for going Wyvern. Hanneman isn't really worthy of B tier imo due to how much effort needs to be put into him for him to reach Meteor. Manuela could be low A or top of B+ because of Warp but I don't know how practical this may be. Linhardt is basically better Manuela so I'd say middle of A tier for him. Annette is definitely a B tier unit because of how broken her personal and rallies are and I think Dorothea, much like Hanneman is quite awful.

I'd have to argue on your placement with Caspar. He at least should be below or same tier as ashe since it is easier for ashe to promote to wyvern and much better bases. I agree with Cyril and admit I have been underrating him(i think personal bias got the best of me).

Hanneman is really this high up solely because yes his spd sucks but so do the other mages(maybe except lysithea) sucks. In a way, mage's inability to double on maddening buffed him since he has one of the better dmg output among the mages and he has 3 range. Of course his utility isn't that good thou, but I argue he is just as good as hubert.

I dont want to over value warp since like i said this isn't ltc. 

Annette personally I think should stay cause when you get her, rallies aren't as good as it was in the beginning. 

Also I dont understand why you would put Mercedes at C but Flayn at A.Their utility is about equal(imo Mercedes is better), but Mercedes has the advantage of being recruited earlier.

Also putting much thought into it, I personally think mByleth is better than Claude. Sure Claude has a better class, but their dmg output is about the same since Byleth has 2 more str at base and will have 1.5 more str than claude(assuming when through the same class line) by level 30. As wyvern master, Claude would do 0.5 more dmg with a silver bow than wyvern rider Byleth with a silver bow(rider has 2 str bonus vs master +1 str bonus)

Update:

Have included blue lion explanation. Will edit again later. 

All list Hannaman and Dorothea went down a tier

Hubert down a tier

Cyril in AM and VW went up a tier

Hilda and Ashe down a tier in AM

Claude below mByleth

Edited by leesangstar10

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15 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

sorry for the late response

in the rules i do state no team synergy. So 3 warp users is something I wouldn't consider. I feel like I may need to be more specific on the rules. I still think this is too LTC focused, as mentioned this tier list isn't meant for that. I feel efficiently was not well defined as it should have so I'll try fixing that.

I'd have to argue on your placement with Caspar. He at least should be below or same tier as ashe since it is easier for ashe to promote to wyvern and much better bases. I agree with Cyril and admit I have been underrating him(i think personal bias got the best of me).

Hanneman is really this high up solely because yes his spd sucks but so do the other mages(maybe except lysithea) sucks. In a way, mage's inability to double on maddening buffed him since he has one of the better dmg output among the mages and he has 3 range. Of course his utility isn't that good thou, but I argue he is just as good as hubert.

I dont want to over value warp since like i said this isn't ltc. 

Annette personally I think should stay cause when you get her, rallies aren't as good as it was in the beginning. 

Also I dont understand why you would put Mercedes at C but Flayn at A.Their utility is about equal(imo Mercedes is better), but Mercedes has the advantage of being recruited earlier.

Also putting much thought into it, I personally think mByleth is better than Claude. Sure Claude has a better class, but their dmg output is about the same since Byleth has 2 more str at base and will have 1.5 more str than claude(assuming when through the same class line) by level 30. As wyvern master, Claude would do 0.5 more dmg with a silver bow than wyvern rider Byleth with a silver bow(rider has 2 str bonus vs master +1 str bonus)

Update:

Have included blue lion explanation. Will edit again later. 

All list Hannaman and Dorothea went down a tier

Hubert down a tier

Cyril in AM and VW went up a tier

Hilda and Ashe down a tier in AM

Claude below mByleth

Flayn was mostly because of adjutant stuff but eh, you could drop her a little bit to b tier if you aren't too obsessed with going fast. Mercedes I don't really like because a lot of people can replicate physic but I think I can definitely put her at bottom or middle of B tier. I agree with Byleth being better than Claude because of what you said and weapon ranks. I overrated Annette but I still think she is pretty good and should be B tier. 

I think undervaluing warp is a bit strange because even on a non LTC route, warp still allows you to skip most maps as they usually are defeat the boss maps. Chapter 5 and 6 for example are made MUCH easier with warp but I think it's fine to drop Manuela a bit. Linhardt I still think should be A tier because he has a good faith spell list for healing and warp is just a cherry on the top for him.

Now I like Caspar more because he is quite like AM Hilda in that he has a monstrous base and a high axe base when recruited late so he can make a good filler Wyvern. The way I go about Maddening is that I funnel most exp into 3 excellent units and the rest goes to filler units which is why I usually find Ashe being pretty bad.

Edited by Ishmael

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6 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Flayn was mostly because of adjutant stuff but eh, you could drop her a little bit to b tier if you aren't too obsessed with going fast.

I think on VW specifically she should be at least B+ even without considering the +3 Mt for Byleth and Seteth. She is the only auto recruit in VW to learn restore so if you want to save the investment of recruiting to other units like Petra or Felix you don’t need to recruit Linhardt or Mercedes, but most of all she gets Rescue, allowing for extra positioning utility. Only other units to get Rescue are bernadetta, who has bad magic and Anna, and Anna sucks. She might even be viable for A+ once the Dlc comes out since a flier with rescue is insane.

15 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

Claude below mByleth

Why is Claude below Male Byleth? I understand the argument for being below Female Byleth due to her getting 10 extra levels of flying utility but i see no reason for Claude to be lower then M-Byleth when he has better overall stats, along with Encloser and access to a better flying class.

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On 1/15/2020 at 10:20 AM, Ishmael said:

This is entirely for VW and I'd be quite happy to discuss my rankings with others!

 I'd argue that Caspar/Cyril aren't meme units on VW due to being a pretty okay filler wyvern if your Ingrid turns out bad because of decent bases and little investment except for flying for going Wyvern. Hanneman isn't really worthy of B tier imo due to how much effort needs to be put into him for him to reach Meteor. Manuela could be low A or top of B+ because of Warp but I don't know how practical this may be. Linhardt is basically better Manuela so I'd say middle of A tier for him. Annette is definitely a B tier unit because of how broken her personal and rallies are and I think Dorothea, much like Hanneman is quite awful.

 

I'd make the following tier list for VW:

 

S tier:

f-Byleth

Claude

m-Byleth

A+ tier:

Lysithea

Hilda

Catherine

A tier:

Marianne

Leonie

Flayn

Manuela

Seteth

Shamir

B+ tier:

Ingrid

Sylvain

Felix

Petra

Ferdinand

Raphael

Ignatz

B tier:

Cyril

Caspar

Alois

Annette

C+ tier:

Lorenz

Ashe

Bernie

C tier:

Hanneman

Dorothea

Mercedes

I have issue with Raphael being B+ tier while Dorothea and Mercedes, both of whom I'd consider far, far better, are only C. Hell, I'd go so far as to say Raphael doesn't deserve to be above damn near everyone he's above.

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53 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I have issue with Raphael being B+ tier while Dorothea and Mercedes, both of whom I'd consider far, far better, are only C. Hell, I'd go so far as to say Raphael doesn't deserve to be above damn near everyone he's above.

Raphael has rally strength and easy access to Smite which is more useful than another Physic bot and Fortify is not nearly good enough for her. Mages in this game have terrible movement so unless they offer Rescue or Warp they aren't too great. Killing people is not a big achievement either considering that Wyverns already murder people. Restore utility can also be replicated by Linhardt. Alois, Caspar and Cyril I count as lower as than Raphael as they are just filler units who can be replaced with Seteth, or Ferdinand.

2 hours ago, Geenoble said:

I think on VW specifically she should be at least B+ even without considering the +3 Mt for Byleth and Seteth. She is the only auto recruit in VW to learn restore so if you want to save the investment of recruiting to other units like Petra or Felix you don’t need to recruit Linhardt or Mercedes, but most of all she gets Rescue, allowing for extra positioning utility. Only other units to get Rescue are bernadetta, who has bad magic and Anna, and Anna sucks. She might even be viable for A+ once the Dlc comes out since a flier with rescue is insane.

Why is Claude below Male Byleth? I understand the argument for being below Female Byleth due to her getting 10 extra levels of flying utility but i see no reason for Claude to be lower then M-Byleth when he has better overall stats, along with Encloser and access to a better flying class.

OP said that they don't value warp too highly which is why I dropped her a little bit although I would still rate her as an A tier character personally. Claude is worse than mByleth because mByleth can easily grind up weapon ranks for anything. Also Barbarossa is also not always better than WL whose higher strength and Alert Stance make it more useful.

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20 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Raphael has rally strength and easy access to Smite which is more useful than another Physic bot and Fortify is not nearly good enough for her. Mages in this game have terrible movement so unless they offer Rescue or Warp they aren't too great. Killing people is not a big achievement either considering that Wyverns already murder people. Restore utility can also be replicated by Linhardt. Alois, Caspar and Cyril I count as lower as than Raphael as they are just filler units who can be replaced with Seteth, or Ferdinand.

Which doesn't make up for the fact that he is just that damn bad. I mean, why in the name of Indech would I use him for long enough for Smite to be a factor, knowing that he's a slug that gets the tar beat out of him by everything??? If I really wanted Rally Strength, I'd be far better served with Annette, who also gives me Rally Speed. Also, Linhardt requires Reason ranks to recruit. Mercedes requires Bow rank to recruit. Guess which one is easier to recruit. Hint: It ain't Linhardt. RE: Ferdinand, I'd drop him because of his recruitment requirements.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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25 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Which doesn't make up for the fact that he is just that damn bad. I mean, why in the name of Indech would I use him for long enough for Smite to be a factor, knowing that he's a slug that gets the tar beat out of him by everything??? If I really wanted Rally Strength, I'd be far better served with Annette, who also gives me Rally Speed. Also, Linhardt requires Reason ranks to recruit. Mercedes requires Bow rank to recruit. Guess which one is easier to recruit. Hint: It ain't Linhardt. RE: Ferdinand, I'd drop him because of his recruitment requirements.

You do know that you can just keep his focus and goals in Armor and Authority to get Smite and rally strength(D rank btw) right? You also don't need to only have one Rally user. That's like saying that one doesn't need another WL because Byleth is already one. It's not like there is a cap on units you can use with a certain skill. Plus, you just need to have proper positioning for Raphael. Linhardt is just better than Mercedes because of warp and if Restore was such a big deal, Flayn, an autorecruit, gets it. Hell Physic is learnt by Marianne as well. It's not like they end up being too useful anyway considering that you can end maps in 1-2 turns. Recruiting Linhardt is easy with the B support recruitment trick and Ferdinand can be picked up early on by speccing into armor which isn't too bad considering that Weight -3 is a good filler skill and monastery stuff speeds it up significantly.

Edited by Ishmael

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29 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

You do know that you can just keep his focus and goals in Armor and Authority to get Smite and rally strength(D rank btw) right? You also don't need to only have one Rally user. That's like saying that one doesn't need another WL because Byleth is already one. It's not like there is a cap on units you can use with a certain skill. Plus, you just need to have proper positioning for Raphael. Linhardt is just better than Mercedes because of warp and if Restore was such a big deal, Flayn, an autorecruit, gets it. Hell Physic is learnt by Marianne as well. It's not like they end up being too useful anyway considering that you can end maps in 1-2 turns. Recruiting Linhardt is easy with the B support recruitment trick and Ferdinand can be picked up early on by speccing into armor which isn't too bad considering that Weight -3 is a good filler skill and monastery stuff speeds it up significantly.

I'd much rather have the two most important rallies on one unit than have them spread out over two third-rate units. RE: Linhardt, that applies to literally anyone else not named Caspar or Ferdinand (because their B supports are locked until after the timeskip), so that's not a point in his favour. And by the time he might offer to join, I'd likely have Manuela already.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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26 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'd much rather have the two most important rallies on one unit than have them spread out over two third-rate units. RE: Linhardt, that applies to literally anyone else not named Caspar or Ferdinand (because their B supports are locked until after the timeskip), so that's not a point in his favour. And by the time he might offer to join, I'd likely have Manuela already.

I brought the trick up because you said that Linhardt is too hard to recruit not because it is unique to him. Recruitment is a non issue for almost everyone. Rallies on both Byleth and Claude are extremely helpful and it is better to have them than not to have them. Also again, more warp is always better.

Edited by Ishmael

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25 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

I brought the trick up because you said that Linhardt is too hard to recruit not because it is unique to him. Recruitment is a non issue for almost everyone. Rallies on both Byleth and Claude are extremely helpful and it is better to have them than not to have them. Also again, more warp is always better.

Doesn't change the fact that I'd have better units than him as higher priority. Like Mercedes and Dorothea (before you think to mention Marianne again, I'm gonna counter by saying one Physic user alone ain't enough). Linhardt doesn't really give me anything of note (that I wouldn't have had on a better unit) in comparison. And even if I did care about Warp, shitting away a truckload of experience is shooting yourself in the foot in a big way.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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13 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Doesn't change the fact that I'd have better units than him as higher priority. Like Mercedes and Dorothea (before you think to mention Marianne again, I'm gonna counter by saying one Physic user alone ain't enough). Linhardt doesn't really give me anything of note (that I wouldn't have had on a better unit) in comparison. And even if I did care about Warp, shitting away a truckload of experience is shooting yourself in the foot in a big way.

Maddening encourages juggernauting with 3-4 good units and not having a spread out army, instead replacing them with cross houses/church units. Considering the fact that you will be able to clear turns in 2-4 turns, Physic isn't nearly as useful as you think. Skipping maps ENTIRELY is far more useful than getting more exp since you avoid the dangerous combat and while exp isn't plentiful, 3-4 units would definitely get more than enough exp on Maddening. Plus gardening and cooking help alleviate "low stats".  Nemesis is the only boss who at lower levels may be a threat and even then pumping Lysithea full of Magic Herbs and using Luna would wreck him. at lower levels. Aux battles, if they are considered (it seems like they are), can provide exp and ore and class exp so going through maps quickly isn't even discouraged that way.

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9 hours ago, Ishmael said:

I think undervaluing warp is a bit strange because even on a non LTC route, warp still allows you to skip most maps as they usually are defeat the boss maps. Chapter 5 and 6 for example are made MUCH easier with warp but I think it's fine to drop Manuela a bit. Linhardt I still think should be A tier because he has a good faith spell list for healing and warp is just a cherry on the top for him.

The problem is, unless you started with the Golden Deer, having Warp that early is really unrealistic. Also, I think Linhardt in A tier completely ignores his recruitment being awkward (I have better things to do than tutor Byleth in Reason).

Edited by Shadow Mir

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10 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Now I like Caspar more because he is quite like AM Hilda in that he has a monstrous base and a high axe base when recruited late so he can make a good filler Wyvern. The way I go about Maddening is that I funnel most exp into 3 excellent units and the rest goes to filler units which is why I usually find Ashe being pretty bad.

I dont remember his bases being that good for auto level. Hilda at least train both lance and axe for auto level so she can promote to wyvern easier. You would only have to train flying with the added bonus of pegasus if recruited early+armor hidden talent. 

8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I have issue with Raphael being B+ tier while Dorothea and Mercedes, both of whom I'd consider far, far better, are only C. Hell, I'd go so far as to say Raphael doesn't deserve to be above damn near everyone he's above.

Mercedes I agree see, but I'd argue with Dorothea. One  mages are not that good in Maddening and imo her offensive capabilities is worse. She doesn't train in faith and initially bad at it(unlike the other physic healers who gets it when you recruit them). She realistically isn't that relevant for most part of the game. At least Raphael is decent early(not that great of a tank but something)

10 hours ago, Geenoble said:

Why is Claude below Male Byleth? I understand the argument for being below Female Byleth due to her getting 10 extra levels of flying utility but i see no reason for Claude to be lower then M-Byleth when he has better overall stats, along with Encloser and access to a better flying class.

As mention before, damage wise he isn't going to do that much more using a bow. When Byleth uses axe he's going to do more dmg vs Claude bow. Spd wise the difference isn't that big. Claudes on average is 3 more spd but Byleth can get other weapon ranks like -3 weight and alert stance earlier and could use magic weapons to better kill armor knights. Claude has better combat art , but the options that Byleth have imo is what makes Byleth better. Still they r very close.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

The problem is, unless you started with the Golden Deer, having Warp that early is really unrealistic. Also, I think Linhardt in A tier completely ignores his recruitment being awkward (I have better things to do than tutor Byleth in Reason).

I agree mainly because I believe that there should be 2 tier difference between Linhardt and Lysithea. Lysithea can get warp much earlier and is in house. If we are valuing warp as Ishmael, then Lysithea should be bottom of S and Linhardt A.

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3 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

Mercedes I agree see, but I'd argue with Dorothea. One  mages are not that good in Maddening and imo her offensive capabilities is worse. She doesn't train in faith and initially bad at it(unlike the other physic healers who gets it when you recruit them). She realistically isn't that relevant for most part of the game. At least Raphael is decent early(not that great of a tank but something)

To be fair, if you get Dorothea at Level 5-9 (and you really should if you want to use her), she'll start with D in Faith, so C isn't especially far off; you should be able to get it by the end of the chapter after she joins. Besides that, Dorothea has Meteor which is huge because of its ability to hand out linked attacks to everyone (as well as the ability to aggro certain formations sfely). She's probably worse on VW than the other routes just because she supports relatively few Deer (though Ferdinand, Petra, Felix, Ingrid, and Sylvain are all regarded pretty good PCs, so her value rises if you recruit a bunch of them too), but on AM Maddening I found her an extremely strong pickup.

 

3 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

As mention before, damage wise he isn't going to do that much more using a bow. When Byleth uses axe he's going to do more dmg vs Claude bow. Spd wise the difference isn't that big. Claudes on average is 3 more spd but Byleth can get other weapon ranks like -3 weight and alert stance earlier and could use magic weapons to better kill armor knights. Claude has better combat art , but the options that Byleth have imo is what makes Byleth better. Still they r very close.

Claude can get Weight -3 easily too (certainly more easily than Byleth who eats 15 activity points, that's quite significant early on). I'd kneejerk Claude above M!Byleth but a lot of that is because of his unique combat arts, Fallen Star and Encloser are both really good. The stat differences feel somewhat lateral, one has more Spd and one has more most other things, but Spd is really important.

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27 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

To be fair, if you get Dorothea at Level 5-9 (and you really should if you want to use her), she'll start with D in Faith, so C isn't especially far off; you should be able to get it by the end of the chapter after she joins. Besides that, Dorothea has Meteor which is huge because of its ability to hand out linked attacks to everyone (as well as the ability to aggro certain formations sfely). She's probably worse on VW than the other routes just because she supports relatively few Deer (though Ferdinand, Petra, Felix, Ingrid, and Sylvain are all regarded pretty good PCs, so her value rises if you recruit a bunch of them too), but on AM Maddening I found her an extremely strong pickup.

huh I thought she starts E. Welp ig i was wrong. Never thought about using meteor for linked attacks will use it. I am not counting team synergy so her support with few Deers would not affect her rating. hmm compelling enough argument to make her a tier above Hannaman at least, I still do think she is worse than Raphael on VW though. 

Im just not sure if she deserves to be in the same tier as Lysithea for CF and SS(ig i could make Lysithea higher)

27 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Claude can get Weight -3 easily too (certainly more easily than Byleth who eats 15 activity points, that's quite significant early on). I'd kneejerk Claude above M!Byleth but a lot of that is because of his unique combat arts, Fallen Star and Encloser are both really good. The stat differences feel somewhat lateral, one has more Spd and one has more most other things, but Spd is really important.

I never found Fallen Star to be particular good. It only lets you dodge one attack guarantee. I found waiting+alert stance to be better. I don't think Byleth getting Weight-3 is that hard imo. I usually do monastery 2-3 times a month. I can just train with Alois each time(and eventually Gilbert) and should be able to get it by ch 5. Weight-3 isn't the only skill though, he could get healing focus and alert stance+ earlier than Claude.

Also if we need to consider early game. mByleth is better early game than Claude who imo is the worst out of the three lords in early game wise. I rather have a unit that has a better early game vs better late game.

Edited by leesangstar10

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2 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

huh I thought she starts E. Welp ig i was wrong. Never thought about using meteor for linked attacks will use it. I am not counting team synergy so her support with few Deers would not affect her rating. hmm compelling enough argument to make her a tier above Hannaman at least, I still do think she is worse than Raphael on VW though. 

Im just not sure if she deserves to be in the same tier as Lysithea for CF and SS(ig i could make Lysithea higher)

I never found Fallen Star to be particular good. It only lets you dodge one attack guarantee. I found waiting+alert stance to be better. I don't think Byleth getting Weight-3 is that hard imo. I usually do monastery 2-3 times a month. I can just train with Alois each time(and eventually Gilbert) and should be able to get it by ch 5. Weight-3 isn't the only skill though, he could get healing focus and alert stance+ earlier than Claude.

Also if we need to consider early game. mByleth is better early game than Claude who imo is the worst out of the three lords in early game wise. I rather have a unit that has a better early game vs better late game.

Getting weight - 3 isn’t difficult per say but it basically delays getting Windsweep by 1-2 chapters.

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10 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

I never found Fallen Star to be particular good. It only lets you dodge one attack guarantee. I found waiting+alert stance to be better. I don't think Byleth getting Weight-3 is that hard imo. I usually do monastery 2-3 times a month. I can just train with Alois each time(and eventually Gilbert) and should be able to get it by ch 5. Weight-3 isn't the only skill though, he could get healing focus and alert stance+ earlier than Claude.

I dunno - is Alert Stance really that good as to warrant not contributing on player phase??? I'm not sold.

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15 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

I dont remember his bases being that good for auto level. Hilda at least train both lance and axe for auto level so she can promote to wyvern easier. You would only have to train flying with the added bonus of pegasus if recruited early+armor hidden talent.

I was being hyperbolic. His bad bases are "fixed" by late recruitment and because of his high strength(highest of any VW recruit), Killer Axe+ and Smash are quite reliable. You don't need a lance rank for WR and grinding up relevant weapon ranks for him isn't that difficult. Just change his focus to flying and authority for D authority.

16 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The problem is, unless you started with the Golden Deer, having Warp that early is really unrealistic. Also, I think Linhardt in A tier completely ignores his recruitment being awkward (I have better things to do than tutor Byleth in Reason).

I wrote at the top that the list was entirely for Golden Deer. Linhardt recruitment can once again be cheesed with the B support trick and you don't need to get him super early anyway, just before chapter 12 or 11 is fine for him anyway.

31 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I dunno - is Alert Stance really that good as to warrant not contributing on player phase??? I'm not sold.

Alert Stance+ is so good as it allows units to cleave through enemies without the threat of being killed on EP. It is a poor man's BV and BW on Claude since he lacks BV.

Edited by Ishmael

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30 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I dunno - is Alert Stance really that good as to warrant not contributing on player phase??? I'm not sold.

Immortal Corps gives +10 avoid. Alert Stance + 15 and the upgraded version +30 which isn't that hard to achieve on Claude of all people. You can then place him on a forest tile, but even then I've seen him battling enemies in the 30s when they try to attack him with all of the above active  EDIT: just checked, no forest i n this case (only one Stance can be used and in this case it was AS+). Throw in a adjutant for the support bonus. You also have Blessing to fall back to in case of bad RNG (it lasts until it's used up).

Edited by redlight

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29 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

I was being hyperbolic. His bad bases are "fixed" by late recruitment and because of his high strength(highest of any VW recruit), Killer Axe+ and Smash are quite reliable. You don't need a lance rank for WR and grinding up relevant weapon ranks for him isn't that difficult. Just change his focus to flying and authority for D authority.

But y would he be in the same tier as alois. Alois has sim bases(pretty sure his is better but not sure) and comes with weight-3 and overall better ranks.

53 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I dunno - is Alert Stance really that good as to warrant not contributing on player phase??? I'm not sold.

If you actually want to have a good enemy phase late game, yes. Avoid tanking is really the only way for units to be good enemy phase.

Edited by leesangstar10

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