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36 minutes ago, leesangstar10 said:

But y would he be in the same tier as alois. Alois has sim bases(pretty sure his is better but not sure) and comes with weight-3 and overall better ranks.

If you actually want to have a good enemy phase late game, yes. Avoid tanking is really the only way for units to be good enemy phase.

They have similar uses as mid-early lategame Wyverns so I placed them in the same list. I haven't ordered my tier list yet as I am still conflicted about some placements(mByleth and Claude, Seteth and Manuela for example).

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1 hour ago, leesangstar10 said:

Avoid tanking is really the only way for units to be good enemy phase.

Mostly agree with this but you can also have good enemy phase if you're tanky like Dedue, or have some sort of vantage wrath combo. Avoid tanking is the easiest one though since it only requires you to train Flying and have a good battalion and speed, while Vantage Wrath requires either low battalion health or mastery and Defence can still suffer from Poison Strike and not every unit has a personal skill that grants +4 Defence.

52 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

They have similar uses as mid-early lategame Wyverns so I placed them in the same list. I haven't ordered my tier list yet as I am still conflicted about some placements(mByleth and Claude, Seteth and Manuela for example).

I think Alois is a good deal better than Caspar, especially due to his base Authority rank, the difference between C and E is huge, especially since Caspar has a bane. Alois has a realistic chance of reaching A rank for Cihol Wyvern co or if you decide to make him a foot unit other good battalions, Caspar will probably reach C+ without favoritism if you recruit him late, and he is better recruited late so i don't see why you would recruit him earlier. Alois may get into Wyvern a little later due to his Flying bane, but he performs well foot locked anyway and he wants to run around in Brigand for 1 or 2 maps to get Death Blow so it doesn't matter too much.

 

Why are you conflicted about Seteth? A tier seems fine imo.

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Just now, Geenoble said:

I think Alois is a good deal better than Caspar, especially due to his base Authority rank, the difference between C and E is huge, especially since Caspar has a bane. Alois has a realistic chance of reaching A rank for Cihol Wyvern co or if you decide to make him a foot unit other good battalions, Caspar will probably reach C+ without favoritism if you recruit him late, and he is better recruited late so i don't see why you would recruit him earlier. Alois may get into Wyvern a little later due to his Flying bane, but he performs well foot locked anyway and he wants to run around in Brigand for 1 or 2 maps to get Death Blow so it doesn't matter too much.

 

Why are you conflicted about Seteth? A tier seems fine imo.

I think they are virtually similar as I think both units don't usually don't need good battalions on them to kill. Alois is a good deal slower and has less skill than Caspar which is why I rank him lower. D authority with Caspar is good enough for peg co although Alois's higher Authority is better. Besides, Byleth will take better advantage of Cichol Wyvern Co anyway as she can hit OHKO range.

I'm conflicted more so for the ordering of the list. I'd like Seteth to be higher than Manuela but at the same time, warp utility looks quite a bit better.

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4 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

I think they are virtually similar as I think both units don't usually don't need good battalions on them to kill. Alois is a good deal slower and has less skill than Caspar which is why I rank him lower. D authority with Caspar is good enough for peg co although Alois's higher Authority is better. Besides, Byleth will take better advantage of Cichol Wyvern Co anyway as she can hit OHKO range.

I'm conflicted more so for the ordering of the list. I'd like Seteth to be higher than Manuela but at the same time, warp utility looks quite a bit better.

Warp utility is really good, and i agree with Linhardt and Lysithea over Seteth, but Manuela has the worst warp range for starters, and Seteths combat is incredibly good. When warping a unit, you need to make sure the unit has good combat to hold their own for whatever reason you've warped them, such as blocking a point, moving to kill an enemy that was out of reach, or one turning a map. In this case a unit with good combat is arguably better than the warper since they're the one that does the killing. Seteth can orko most enemies after he gets SS whereas Manuela has pretty iffy combat too, and while Warping 15 tiles can be considered better then ORKOs or 7 range warp and great healing utility, 6 range warp and, like ward and silence? those are ok but not amazing, isn't better than that imo. I could make a similar argument for Shamir as she starts ORKOing when she gets Hunters Volley but i can see Manuela staying above her as Shamir only has 5 move and much more issues than Seteth has.

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27 minutes ago, Geenoble said:

Warp utility is really good, and i agree with Linhardt and Lysithea over Seteth, but Manuela has the worst warp range for starters, and Seteths combat is incredibly good. When warping a unit, you need to make sure the unit has good combat to hold their own for whatever reason you've warped them, such as blocking a point, moving to kill an enemy that was out of reach, or one turning a map. In this case a unit with good combat is arguably better than the warper since they're the one that does the killing. Seteth can orko most enemies after he gets SS whereas Manuela has pretty iffy combat too, and while Warping 15 tiles can be considered better then ORKOs or 7 range warp and great healing utility, 6 range warp and, like ward and silence? those are ok but not amazing, isn't better than that imo. I could make a similar argument for Shamir as she starts ORKOing when she gets Hunters Volley but i can see Manuela staying above her as Shamir only has 5 move and much more issues than Seteth has.

Yeah that makes sense. I'd put Seteth higher than Manuela.

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3 hours ago, Ishmael said:

I think they are virtually similar as I think both units don't usually don't need good battalions on them to kill. Alois is a good deal slower and has less skill than Caspar which is why I rank him lower. D authority with Caspar is good enough for peg co although Alois's higher Authority is better. Besides, Byleth will take better advantage of Cichol Wyvern Co anyway as she can hit OHKO range.

Assuming you get Caspar at lvl 23:

Caspar: hp:47 str:26 mag:9 dex:15 spd:16 lck:17 def:15 res:4 cha:11

Alois at ch11 at lvl21

Alois: hp:50 str:27 mag:8 dex:12 spd:15 lck:12 def:18 res:8 cha:16

Their stats look pretty similar(not sure where you got Alois being much slower). But considering Alois has better Authority rank(C vs E), comes with weight-3(and could get smite at B), respectable charm stat, and no recruitment investment needed, I would say Alois should be rated at least a tier higher than Caspar, but at the very least should be higher. 

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On 1/7/2020 at 9:54 PM, leesangstar10 said:
  • I will also consider late game recruitment since xp is more scarce(so does that unit have good auto levels?)

The question I have here is, is it really worth waiting until part 1 is nearly over to recruit?? Because I'm not sure it is... and in fact, I doubt it.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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1 hour ago, leesangstar10 said:

Their stats look pretty similar(not sure where you got Alois being much slower). But considering Alois has better Authority rank(C vs E), comes with weight-3(and could get smite at B), respectable charm stat, and no recruitment investment needed, I would say Alois should be rated at least a tier higher than Caspar, but at the very least should be higher. 

C authority isn't even remotely impressive at Chapter 11. My Hilda had that on my latest VW run for crying out loud , and she's got a bane in it. Now, Alois might well still have an advantage over Caspar in authority long-term, since he doesn't have a bane, but if so it's not much of one.

But Caspar is probably still better than Alois clearly enough. He can actually train Flying before Chapter 11, and doesn't have a bane in it. For two PCs without many good points outside of "axe-user with decent str", wyvern is obviously the place to take them, and Alois has more trouble getting there by far. Heck, when Alois joins, he'll probably want to go muck around in lower-tier classes just to catch up on skills, while Caspar can easily be a Wyvern with Death Blow and [whichever beginner tier masteries the player values most]. Caspar's not great but he still handles Alois easily IMO.

19 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

I never found Fallen Star to be particular good. It only lets you dodge one attack guarantee. I found waiting+alert stance to be better. I don't think Byleth getting Weight-3 is that hard imo. I usually do monastery 2-3 times a month. I can just train with Alois each time(and eventually Gilbert) and should be able to get it by ch 5. Weight-3 isn't the only skill though, he could get healing focus and alert stance+ earlier than Claude.

Fallen Star lets you kill something AND survive an unusually high amount of pressure the following turn, even baiting things that can normally kill you in one hit, like powerful bosses. That's valuable.

Those monastery actions aren't free. Every one you take is time that isn't going towards raising your professor rank, gaining money, building supports, or restoring motivation. If you're doing a lot of faculty training early you're probably making your overall team worse just to make Byleth look better.

Healing Focus is trash (combat art slots are more valuable than inventory slots), Alert Stance+ Claude gets quite easily thanks to having a flying boon.

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4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The question I have here is, is it really worth waiting until part 1 is nearly over to recruit?? Because I'm not sure it is... and in fact, I doubt it.

Its awarding units that have more flexibility. Like mages you normally want to recruit as early as possible, but Leonie you can recruit early or late and she still be pretty viable. Idk we could still tweek the rules I am down for that.

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

But Caspar is probably still better than Alois clearly enough. He can actually train Flying before Chapter 11, and doesn't have a bane in it. For two PCs without many good points outside of "axe-user with decent str", wyvern is obviously the place to take them, and Alois has more trouble getting there by far. Heck, when Alois joins, he'll probably want to go muck around in lower-tier classes just to catch up on skills, while Caspar can easily be a Wyvern with Death Blow and [whichever beginner tier masteries the player values most]. Caspar's not great but he still handles Alois easily IMO.

Ishmael did say that late recruitment fixes his bases so I assumed you are recruiting Caspar around that chapter. 

Hmmm still having difficulties placing him. Ig he can be out of C tier at least in B for now since Alois is B. Honestly thinking about it, I feel Caspar is better outside his route since you don't have to be stuck with terrible bases.

Idk maybe Claude is better than mByleth. idk maybe dlc will give a good exclusive male class.

One thing that bothers me though is that Ashe is in the same tier as Caspar for AM. Ig i could just move Alois and Caspar down a tier, but not sure.

Edited by leesangstar10

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4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

But Caspar is probably still better than Alois clearly enough. He can actually train Flying before Chapter 11, and doesn't have a bane in it. Heck, when Alois joins, he'll probably want to go muck around in lower-tier classes just to catch up on skills, while Caspar can easily be a Wyvern with Death Blow and [whichever beginner tier masteries the player values most]. Caspar's not great but he still handles Alois easily IMO.

I think you're overestimating how much Flight Exp a unit needs to have in order to get into Wyvern Rider. D Rank flying alone is enough for Alosis to have a 40% chance of passing since he already has a A in Axes. If you had him study solely flight, (+24) instructed him, (+16 ~ +24) and had him participate in the flying Group Task (+4), he could easily hit D Flying in the month you recruited him.

Alosis also has quite a substantial amount of Strength over the average Caspar. While Caspar may initially have Deathblow, with the Knowledge gem it only takes 25 rounds of combat to obtain Deathblow, so it will not be an advantage Caspar has for long. Plus Alosis gets enjoy other boons for free that Caspar would have to invest in, such as Weight -3 or having Fortress Knight Base Defense without even having to certify as one. 

There's really nothing that makes Capsar worth investing as starting house unit. His initial bases will make him struggle to have comparable stats to units that could simply be recruited. Add to that his bane in Authority and lack of notable Combat Arts, I see no reason in having him anywhere but C tier.

Edited by LoneRecon400

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44 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

I think you're overestimating how much Flight Exp a unit needs to have in order to get into Wyvern Rider. D Rank flying alone is enough for Alosis to have a 40% chance of passing since he already has a A in Axes. If you had him study solely flight, (+24) instructed him, (+16 ~ +24) and had him participate in the flying Group Task (+4), he could easily hit D Flying in the month you recruited him.

I can't check my file now, but are you sure Alois starts with A axes? I know Seteth doesn't start with an A in anything, and he joins a chapter later with the same listed skill data. That said he does start with at B+ at least, so yeah enough to get to Wyvern Rider in not too long, though by your own numbers he's chancing RNG for certification by the end of Chapter 11 (and possibly even 12, not much time there).

It's not just Death Blow, but Str+2/Spd+2/Reposition. Caspar not wasting all that time training brawling will help him with closing on Weight -3 and getting his authority up, so I doubt Alois will have much of an advantage, though if you want to run numbers on a reasonable Caspar build and prove me wrong feel free.

That said I generally agree that Caspar has no business being outside the lower tiers. Neither his stat build nor talent list is great and nothing else about him stands out either. My point was more that Alois doesn't compare very well to him anyway. Later joiners have it really rough for skills in this game; Seteth gets away with it by putting all his talents in the right places, Jeritza gets away with it via stats and a strong unique class. Alois (as well as Gilbert) doesn't have that, and feel underwhelming compared to many units you could have built up, to the point where even some of the weakest options for that (i.e. Caspar) are at least arguably better.

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47 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I can't check my file now, but are you sure Alois starts with A axes?

He has A Axes, B Brawling, C Authority and C Heavy Armour.

 

Edited by SpiceMan

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1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I can't check my file now, but are you sure Alois starts with A axes? 

It's not just Death Blow, but Str+2/Spd+2/Reposition. Caspar not wasting all that time training brawling will help him with closing on Weight -3 and getting his authority up, so I doubt Alois will have much of an advantage, though if you want to run numbers on a reasonable Caspar build and prove me wrong feel free.

My point was more that Alois doesn't compare very well to Caspar. Later joiners have it really rough for skills in this game and Alois is no exception to  that. He feels underwhelming compared to many units you could have built up, to the point where even some of the weakest options for that (i.e. Caspar) are at least arguably better.

Units that are recurited always meet the class requirement of whatever class they're in. It's why a unit like Dorothea gets D Faith when recurited as a monk but gets brought down to E Rank when recruited as a Mage. 

It's very doubtful that Caspar would even be able to master the beginner classes in a timely fashion, as the +1 class Exp statue bonus can't be unlocked until Chapter 5. To master those classes without it would require him to fight 60 rounds of combat and potentially delay learning Deathblow. 

Even if he we're able to learn those skills, keep in mind Alosis typically has as much +6 Strength and +4 Defense over a average Caspar (who doesn't even typically break the Wyvern Class base Stength), which evens out any +2 Skill he may have. 

There are 22 Training sessions before Chapter 11. To get Caspar to C Armor alone would require 15 weeks, nevermind how to get him to C Rank Authority would still require 13 weeks even after something like a 100 rounds of combat. 

You could argue for lecturing him on those skills, but keep in mind that there's only 5 tutoring slots until B Professor Ranking, which doesn't occur until around chapters 7 or 8. That's a quite an opportunity cost on Caspar but doesn't really apply Alosis since most units have the skills they need by the time he is recurited and Byleth would have 7 turtoring slots by that point.  

Alosis only feels mediocre if he isn't given the necessary investment. Unlocking Death Blow and promoting him to Wyvern Rider makes him better or at least on par to most other units. There's a reason why he was featured a great deal in the 0% Growths run.

Edited by LoneRecon400

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9 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

Assuming you get Caspar at lvl 23:

Caspar: hp:47 str:26 mag:9 dex:15 spd:16 lck:17 def:15 res:4 cha:11

Alois at ch11 at lvl21

Alois: hp:50 str:27 mag:8 dex:12 spd:15 lck:12 def:18 res:8 cha:16

Their stats look pretty similar(not sure where you got Alois being much slower). But considering Alois has better Authority rank(C vs E), comes with weight-3(and could get smite at B), respectable charm stat, and no recruitment investment needed, I would say Alois should be rated at least a tier higher than Caspar, but at the very least should be higher. 

Must have remembered the stats wrong. They still have similar roles anyway and the list is unordered so I doubt it makes too much of a difference. I could put Alois higher though.

8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The question I have here is, is it really worth waiting until part 1 is nearly over to recruit?? Because I'm not sure it is... and in fact, I doubt it.

For some units like Caspar, AM Hilda and Ingrid and Linhardt it is worth it.

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10 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Units that are recurited always meet the class requirement of whatever class they're in. It's why a unit like Dorothea gets D Faith when recurited as a monk but gets brought down to E Rank when recruited as a Mage. 

huh thats interesting and kinda funny. Never knew that.

9 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Must have remembered the stats wrong. They still have similar roles anyway and the list is unordered so I doubt it makes too much of a difference. I could put Alois higher though.

I was mainly arguing that they shouldn't be in the same tier, but he def should be out of C tier. 

Im wondering, is Caspar worse on black eagle routes vs other routes cause his bases r so bad early. If he was recruited later, he can auto level to the point where his bases aren't that big of a deal.

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1 hour ago, leesangstar10 said:

Im wondering, is Caspar worse on black eagle routes vs other routes cause his bases r so bad early. If he was recruited later, he can auto level to the point where his bases aren't that big of a deal.

I think its hard to say. While Caspar has terrible bases and gets one rounded, it isn’t difficult to get him kills since Smash has high accuracy and he has a good strength base. The advantages of being there forever are also just general better Weapon ranks, so he will be able to potentially obtain more class masteries like hit +20, or get skills like weight - 3. Caspars two best class options are Wyvern and War Master, so if you decide to go Wyvern he also gets a big boost on his flying for quicker alert stance, and it means he won’t struggle with the eventual Wyvern Lord promotion as he will have time to train lances and get close to A flying. In terms of War Master he will have a much greater Authority rank, and if he has a focus in something like Brawling and Authority, even without much tutoring he has a good chance of reaching B authority in the timeskip for use of the paralouge battalions.

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16 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

Its awarding units that have more flexibility. Like mages you normally want to recruit as early as possible, but Leonie you can recruit early or late and she still be pretty viable. Idk we could still tweek the rules I am down for that.

 

12 hours ago, Ishmael said:

For some units like Caspar, AM Hilda and Ingrid and Linhardt it is worth it.

The problem I have is that one, they don't get authority experience with certain exceptions, and second, some of the most helpful skills are from intermediate classes. I'm not sure that late recruitment is worth it with that in mind... I'd hate to have to delay going into advanced classes.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

The problem I have is that one, they don't get authority experience with certain exceptions, and second, some of the most helpful skills are from intermediate classes. I'm not sure that late recruitment is worth it with that in mind... I'd hate to have to delay going into advanced classes.

I have to agree with this for the most part. One of the main reasons I see for people saying you should late recruit Ingrid is because it makes her strength higher, But I’d rather have sooner DB, as the +6 strength she gets from that mean she that a chapter 6 recruited Ingrid with DB, will have an effectivly higher attack than a Chapter 11 recruited Ingrid thanks to her having Death Blow at that same point.

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20 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

It's very doubtful that Caspar would even be able to master the beginner classes in a timely fashion, as the +1 class Exp statue bonus can't be unlocked until Chapter 5. To master those classes without it would require him to fight 60 rounds of combat and potentially delay learning Deathblow. 

Between getting access to that statue and recruiting Alois there are five chapter maps and ~8 paralogues (I usually do 2 per chapter starting in Chapter 7, your milage may vary). That's 13 maps for Caspar to gain 160 class exp for the two class masteries, which is 80 actions in 13 maps = just over 6 per map. That doesn't seem unreasonable in the slightest.

20 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Even if he we're able to learn those skills, keep in mind Alosis typically has as much +6 Strength and +4 Defense over a average Caspar (who doesn't even typically break the Wyvern Class base Stength), which evens out any +2 Skill he may have. 

I have a difference of +5 str (as do the numbers posted earlier), but that's a minor nitpick. Alois does have better stats so if you're willing to shove him back into earlygame classes to catch up on skills, he will be better for the lategame. But keep in mind that while he's getting those aforementioned 80 actions (halved if he gives up his accessory slot and monopolizes a valuable resource, but even 40's not nothing), Caspar is busy putting in work as a Deathblow Wyvern.

20 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

There are 22 Training sessions before Chapter 11. To get Caspar to C Armor alone would require 15 weeks, nevermind how to get him to C Rank Authority would still require 13 weeks even after something like a 100 rounds of combat. 

You could argue for lecturing him on those skills, but keep in mind that there's only 5 tutoring slots until B Professor Ranking, which doesn't occur until around chapters 7 or 8. That's a quite an opportunity cost on Caspar but doesn't really apply Alosis since most units have the skills they need by the time he is recurited and Byleth would have 7 turtoring slots by that point.  

Alosis only feels mediocre if he isn't given the necessary investment. Unlocking Death Blow and promoting him to Wyvern Rider makes him better or at least on par to most other units. There's a reason why he was featured a great deal in the 0% Growths run.

You talk about my not being willing to give Alois investment yet aren't even willing to give Caspar a single tutoring session?

IMO we should assume all non-Byleth units we use get an even share of tutoring, which in Caspar's case is (5 to 6) out of (8 to 10), or about 50% at worst. If some units can do better with less than that then good for them, but I think that's a good baseline for comparisons. Anyway, your own numbers are kinda damning, since there are more than 15 weeks from Chapter 5 through 10 inclusive, so even without a drop of effort Caspar is getting either C authority or C armour for free, and with his fair share of tutoring he's easily snagging both, especially if we get Byleth armour as well (due to professor expertise bonus).

Alois is good on a 0% growths run because of advantages which are irrelevant for this discussion: namely that he starts with Advanced tier stats (which in a growths run, other units have no trouble reaching). In normal gameplay he's outclassed by a slew of other wyvern rider options... for VW that list includes Byleth, Claude, Hilda, Leonie, Petra, Ferdinand, Felix, Sylvain, Seteth, etc. (And yeah, I'm aware that Caspar is too.)

 

Thanks for the catch on Warrior having that A axes base, I forgot about that mechanic even though I cited it earlier in this thread for why Dorothea should be recruited before Chapter 6, whoops.

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5 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Between getting access to that statue and recruiting Alois there are five chapter maps and ~8 paralogues (I usually do 2 per chapter starting in Chapter 7, your milage may vary). That's 13 maps for Caspar to gain 160 class exp for the two class masteries, which is 80 actions in 13 maps = just over 6 per map. That doesn't seem unreasonable in the slightest.

I have a difference of +5 str (as do the numbers posted earlier), but that's a minor nitpick. Alois does have better stats so if you're willing to shove him back into earlygame classes to catch up on skills, he will be better for the lategame. But keep in mind that while he's getting those aforementioned 80 actions (halved if he gives up his accessory slot and monopolizes a valuable resource, but even 40's not nothing), Caspar is busy putting in work as a Deathblow Wyvern.

You talk about my not being willing to give Alois investment yet aren't even willing to give Caspar a single tutoring session?

IMO we should assume all non-Byleth units we use get an even share of tutoring, which in Caspar's case is (5 to 6) out of (8 to 10), or about 50% at worst. If some units can do better with less than that then good for them, but I think that's a good baseline for comparisons. Anyway, your own numbers are kinda damning, since there are more than 15 weeks from Chapter 5 through 10 inclusive, so even without a drop of effort Caspar is getting either C authority or C armour for free, and with his fair share of tutoring he's easily snagging both, especially if we get Byleth armour as well (due to professor expertise bonus).

Alois is good on a 0% growths run because of advantages which are irrelevant for this discussion: namely that he starts with Advanced tier stats (which in a growths run, other units have no trouble reaching). In normal gameplay he's outclassed by a slew of other wyvern rider options... for VW that list includes Byleth, Claude, Hilda, Leonie, Petra, Ferdinand, Felix, Sylvain, Seteth, etc. (And yeah, I'm aware that Caspar is too.)

 

Thanks for the catch on Warrior having that A axes base, I forgot about that mechanic even though I cited it earlier in this thread for why Dorothea should be recruited before Chapter 6, whoops.

I think the main reason that LoneRecon was ignoring tutoring Caspar was because in his original response to Ishmael, Ishmael was saying Caspar was being recruited at chapter 11, meaning he would have no tutoring, but when Caspar is recruited at chapters 5 he will have that extra room to catch up to Alois ranks.

In terms of your original Arguments of Alois versus Casper, I think in terms of Wyvern your argument has a ground and makes sense, but I think some of Alois other options over Caspar still make him better, and I’ll also go into their other two common class options, War Master and Fortress. You already addressed but the fact that he joins with the class masteries easily, but I still think Alois has a monopoly on ranks outside of Flying if going Wyvern on both. Caspar auto joins with C brawling and Axes at Ch 5. If you want to make Caspar a War Master then you don’t really need much else other than authority, but realistically will only be able to achieve C authority and One of A axes or A brawling. Considering that you won’t be auto focusing on both since you want to focus Authority as well. Compared to Alois he will either have C axes in comparison to Alois’ A or C brawling in comparison to Alois’ B, Alois will also benefit from the C armour he has, and no boon in authority means he will still gain it faster than Caspar. In terms of Wyvern and Fortress Knight Casper will probably need to settle for B axes as he needs to raise his Flying/Armor ranks. This means that Alois will have B brawling compared to Caspars C as well as a higher Axe rank at the cost of having a Lower flying rank or slightly worse Armor rank.

Alois will also have overall better stats than Casper, his initial offence may be slightly lower due to lack of Death Blow, but once he picks up the skill himself he will have overall better combat then Casper while still having a significant bulk lead over Caspar, when both are in FK their bulk is good enough but a WM/Wyvern Caspar is lacking while Alois can usually survive a few rounds.

Of course Casper will have better overall ranks than Alois in SS/CF due to being there from the first tutoring session and IMO is a better unit there, but talking about VW specifically I think Alois beats Casper our.

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In general I'm not terribly impressed with physical classes outside fliers, horses, and the archer line in this game, so wouldn't put much stock in performance in melee infantry classes for a tier list. Agree that if you actually value Grappler and/or War Master then Alois pulls clearly ahead of Caspar since suddenly his time spent auto-training in Brawling isn't a waste, as I'm currently inclined to see it.

That said on reflection I think I am coming to agree that Alois is probably better than Caspar anyway on AM/VW; while i do think he's worse at first due to needing catchup skills, the stat advantages thereafter are meaningful.

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Welp dlc dropped with new characters and new classes that affects the tier list. I haven't used the new features yet(still finishing cinder shadow), but here's a general gist of what I think.

Female mages got a buff cause of dark flier. Not sure how much, but dark flier in my opinion is the better end game class for female mages than dark knight. Still early, but we will see.

Unsure about valkyrie viability. Helps the transition to dark knight easier.

Trickster imo is an underwhelming class, but the mastery skill is nice. Would be useful for ltc possibly, but in a non ltc tier list pretty sure it isn't that good. Can provide support and a good class for manuela, but imo bishop is better for her for double warp use.

War monk: Why would you class change into this class. Its basically grappler that can use faith spells. Bad class imo.

It still early and I might have looked over some things, but I think female mages deserve a bump. Unsure about the placement of the new character cause I gotta actually use them lol. Whats your guys' opinion?

(Also prob not going to do cindered shadow tier list cause theres only 11 units. I see no point rlly cause you are using everybody)

Edited by leesangstar10

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3 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

Female mages got a buff cause of dark flier. Not sure how much, but dark flier in my opinion is the better end game class for female mages than dark knight. Still early, but we will see.

Hapi and Lysithea (and possibly Dorothea, owing to her flying weakness) aside, I’m highly inclined to agree.

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I think is going to be a particoularly good buff on my girl because she get pretty much everything that she liked from WL, lose like 1 point of damage whit Crusher and Bolt axe+, and gain back tons of utility. 

Edit: i was wrong and Dark flyer has no mag boosts. But is still going to be very useful.

Edited by Flere210

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First impression

Yuri: Can't tell what his optimal class is cause he has a pretty bad proficiency spread. His growths are great, but bad in axes, lances, flying, riding. Makes him hard to become wyvern, bow knight, and such. trickster/mortal sevant might actually be his best class lol. To me he has the same problem with Catherine and Manuela of optimal class, but at least Manuela has warp and Catherine has amazing mid game and bases(could also become Falcon knight). Most likely B or C+.

Balthus: Basically raph but could become okay war monk. Imo he is worse than raph cause raph gets battalion warth, but either way C

Constance: Lysithea but bad speed and gets rescue instead of warp. Offensively I would say Constance is better since she makes better use out of dark flier and spd really doesn't matter. I prob would put her B+

Hapi: Prob B. Similar to Hubert but a bit better cause she could become Valkyrie

These are just first impression and the tier list prob has to be re done cause of Dark flier

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