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leesangstar10

Route specific tier list

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On 2/23/2020 at 2:42 AM, A2ZOMG said:

+20 means consistent hitrates with Steel Bows, which means Ignatz actually is a better damage dealer than most of your team in the earlygame. Being able to safely and consistently hit enemies from 3 range with Steel even if they have terrain advantage (which isn't actually uncommon earlygame) is really useful.

y can't ur other archers like claude and leonie do this as well? They still have a good enough hit rate with curve shot. And I don't consider enemy terrain advantage cause then you aren't playing optimally. Included in the OP rules.

On 2/23/2020 at 2:42 AM, A2ZOMG said:

Also I don't get why you would say team synergy doesn't matter. Team synergy is literally a huge part of playing this game and making the most of your units. The fact of the matter is earlygame is significantly easier with Male Byleth on GD Maddening because Leonie and Hilda exist. Leonie is one of the few other units that makes a reasonable frontline in GD other than Byleth earlygame, and Hilda's personal skill is +3 damage for males. You're going to tell me that doesn't drastically affect earlygame performance, where survival in general is actually a real issue? That I would argue significantly outweighs access to Pegasus Knight class, where by the time you actually have access to this, your team in general has more options to not die.

Because thats so many factors to consider. Not everybody is going to use their in house units. Heck some people in other games like FE7 don't even use their main lords. Just because they are required to deploy/in the same house does not mean you have to use them. If I do, then I can argue something like this: Sylvain is op cause he can get +15 free damage from +6 from supports from ingrid and felix, +5 standing next to Hilda for her and his own personal, and +4 from Annette.

On 2/23/2020 at 2:42 AM, A2ZOMG said:

I also don't know where you get that Mages are somehow underwhelming in this game.  Magic literally saves you gold earlygame and lets you hit lower enemy Res stats. Access to Heal spam means you get an earlier power spike with quick access to Fiendish Blow and more EXP for levels/Authority a lot faster than other classes. This is on top of keeping your team alive and also building supports. The only thing not making Mages outright gamebreaking is the lack of a non-DLC flier class. Being a Mage in this game also doesn't stop you from using tools like Break Shot to cripple enemies.

On maddening they are pretty bad. None of them double cause of tomes r heavy and can one shot. Fiendish blow is not enough to one shot. They are also stuck with 4 move until master(I haven't really taken account of dlc classes yet, but either way males mages r screwed). Sure you can use break shot, but you have to take in account that is investing in two proficiencies. I rather focus on one proficiency to get better spells. Also they dont have that many spell uses early game during noble/commoner phase. They literally can attack like 4 times. Sure they could use actual weapons but its like hitting someone with a wet noodle.

On 2/23/2020 at 12:18 PM, A2ZOMG said:

It's not nearly as huge of an opportunity cost with instruction as you're implying when the vast majority of that Authority rank you can easily farm in normal gameplay with Heal/Physic spam.

But for basically any unit, getting to S rank in authority without instruction requires grinding.

 

Also quick question, does yuri's ring give canto to any unit holding it or just him/crest bearers? Cause if it is only him, Yuri is the best dancer no question. Literally fixes the one problem dancers have, staying behind. Imo thats kinda broken.

Edited by leesangstar10

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4 minutes ago, leesangstar10 said:

Also quick question, does yuri's ring give canto to any unit holding it or just him/crest bearers? Cause if it is only him, Yuri is the best dancer no question. Literally fixes the one problem dancers have, staying behind. Imo thats kinda broken.

IIRC, it doesn't matter for the other effects; the crest only determines the damage halving.

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2 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

IIRC, it doesn't matter for the other effects; the crest only determines the damage halving.

okay cause I remembered it being secondary effect only apply to crest bearers. Maybe im getting confused with sacred weapons.

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Canto effect works with any unit, including crestless ones. Source: recent BE clear I used them on one chapter on Dorothea, and one chapter with Edlegard just to see how far I could get her to reach on her own with Raging Storm/Fetters for the meme.

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15 hours ago, Relytive said:

Canto effect works with any unit, including crestless ones. Source: recent BE clear I used them on one chapter on Dorothea, and one chapter with Edlegard just to see how far I could get her to reach on her own with Raging Storm/Fetters for the meme.

Oh cool. Thanks for the clarification. I don't have the DLC, so I wasn't entirely sure that was the case.

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I wonder how the new dlc characters affect these lists. 
 

Hapi for example is an excellent alternative to Lindhardt - she’s got mostly the same great faith list (physic, warp) but with a much, much better reason list (particularly banshee and death) and access to multiple good endgame classes (gremory, dark flier) that Lindhardt would kill for. You also don’t need to expend any resources recruiting her. All of this in exchange for an authority bane and not having a Faith boon - that slows down her access to physic and warp a bit, but I still usually get warp by chapter 8 or 9. She may displace him in a lot of runs. 
 

Similarly, I’m starting to greatly prefer Constance to all other combat mages. About 4.5 shots of bolting on average plus the best rescue user in the game (thanks to an excellent magic growth, as well as generally not being a shit unit) gives her a combination of power and utility that’s unmatched by anyone else. It’s almost as if she gets to just remove any 4-5 units from the map - not even lysithea as dark knight with Thyrsus has that kind of flexibility with her combat. She starts off fine with decent bases, gets to A rank reason pretty quickly if you invest a bit, and can make due with Thyrsus during the gap. She also doesn’t have the lull during the advanced class stage that other mages have because bolting and rescue offset the low move, and she generally gets a ton out of being a warlock (extra boltings, tomefaire). 
 

Yuri also seems great, with a growth spread comparable to Petra and Leonie, but again without the need to meet recruitment requirements. He then gets a hero relic, which pairs with his major crest for solid damage reduction as Felix’s does with his aegis shield. I usually give it to Yuri for that reason, and the relic also basically makes him a mounted unit in non-mounted classes, giving him the flexibility to use low-requirement classes like Sniper while gunning for authority rank, which tends to effectively put him way ahead on stats for a huge chunk of the game. 

Edited by ApocaLips

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38 minutes ago, ApocaLips said:

I wonder how the new dlc characters affect these lists. 

You left out Balthus, who's passive and base defense allow him to behave almost identically to what Dedue would do in BL, but for any route. Which BE and GD really appreciate in chapter 2 MM.

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1 hour ago, Burklight said:

You left out Balthus, who's passive and base defense allow him to behave almost identically to what Dedue would do in BL, but for any route. Which BE and GD really appreciate in chapter 2 MM.

He’s not knocking out recruits from other houses that people are ranking highly, as the other three are. 

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6 minutes ago, ApocaLips said:

He’s not knocking out recruits from other houses that people are ranking highly, as the other three are. 

Maybe not past midgame, but early game maddening is pretty brutal and he's got slightly more defense than Dedue has when his passive is up, and doesn't require him to wait to have the defense bonus active. Having a unit who doesn't die to physical damage at base is super valuable.

On hard or lower this niche doesn't exist and he's probably just bad tho.

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2 minutes ago, Burklight said:

Maybe not past midgame, but early game maddening is pretty brutal and he's got slightly more defense than Dedue has when his passive is up, and doesn't require him to wait to have the defense bonus active. Having a unit who doesn't die to physical damage at base is super valuable.

On hard or lower this niche doesn't exist and he's probably just bad tho.

You can’t recruit Dedue. Again, he’s not displacing units that people tend to rank highly spend resources recruiting. 

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13 minutes ago, ApocaLips said:

You can’t recruit Dedue. Again, he’s not displacing units that people tend to rank highly spend resources recruiting. 

You're missing the point. I understand that you cant recruit Dedue. If you could recruit Dedue for chapter 2, everyone would on maddening, even if everyone also stopped using him by chapter 5~6. I understand he's not a direct upgrade to another unit someone values highly. That doesn't mean he isn't unbelievably valuable. This is because the only other unit in the entire game who has the same niche is Dedue, who as you correctly point out, cannot be recruited. Dedue isn't high in an overall tier list because of availability problems in addition to falling off kinda hard midgame. However, if you only look at the first 5 chapters, he would be S tier. Which is why I'm suggesting Balthus is going to be super valuable early game. I do not understand how this is controversial.  

Edited by Burklight

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11 minutes ago, Burklight said:

You're missing the point. I understand that you cant recruit Dedue. If you could recruit Dedue for chapter 2, everyone would on maddening, even if everyone also stopped using him by chapter 5~6. I understand he's not a direct upgrade to another unit someone values highly. That doesn't mean he isn't unbelievable valuable. This is because the only other unit in the entire game who has the same niche is Dedue, who as you correctly point out, cannot be recruited. Dedue isn't high in an overall tier list because of availability problems in addition to falling off kinda hard midgame. However, if you only look at the first 5 chapters, he would be S tier. Which is why I'm suggesting Balthus is going to be super valuable early game. I do not understand how this is controversial.  

I’m not missing my own point, lol. If you can take a break from trying to tell everyone how wrong they are, you might see that what I’m saying is that the existence of certain new units may stand to radically shake up the tier list because they bring similar benefits to units you’d otherwise need to spend time and resources recruiting. So they could affect the relative rankings of more than just themselves because they change the calculus as to opportunity cost.
 

For example, the first post in this thread ranks Lindhardt at B+ in BL because of the spells he brings to the table but noting that he’s hard to recruit. With Hapi in the mix bringing the same spells and having no recruitment requirements, it obviously changes the math on whether Lindhardt is still worth the effort and thus should keep his spot. A similar thing to a lesser degree is going on with Leonie and Petra compared to Yuri, and Constance compared to any other combat mage you might consider. 
 

The benefits that you’re noting for Balthus let him just slot right in, except maybe in BL where he might push Dedue down. That’s why it’s irrelevant. 

Edited by ApocaLips

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6 minutes ago, ApocaLips said:

I’m not missing my own point, lol. If you can take a break from trying to tell everyone how wrong they are, you might see that what I’m saying is that the existence of certain new units may stand to radically shake up the tier list because they bring similar benefits to units you’d otherwise need to spend time and resources recruiting. So they could affect the relative rankings of more than just themselves because they change the calculus as to opportunity cost.

Right...so, the initial thing I was responding to was when you said:

3 hours ago, ApocaLips said:

I wonder how the new dlc characters affect these lists. 

[insert pretty reasonable case for why Yuri, Constance and Hapi are going to shake things up here]

I noticed that you left out Balthus, so I pointed out the very niche thing he brings to the early game, and why I thought that was good.

Now, when I read "affect these lists," I assumed it meant change. Adding something new is going to change it by definition. If what you meant was "radically reorganize these lists," then I would understand why you think Balthus isn't going to do that. Seems like a fairly reasonable miscommunication.

If, however, I'm misunderstanding where you're coming from again, and you're really just bored and looking for a snide trolling fight, I'm ready to roll.

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5 hours ago, ApocaLips said:

Hapi for example is an excellent alternative to Lindhardt - she’s got mostly the same great faith list (physic, warp) but with a much, much better reason list (particularly banshee and death) and access to multiple good endgame classes (gremory, dark flier) that Lindhardt would kill for.

If Linhardt could become a gremory, I wouldn't even consider it. +10 healing is an excellent trade for having 1 more move, since he relies so heavily on physic either way. And HP values of your units get very high by the end of the game. And extra black spell charges are moot when he has such low chance of running out of attacking spells. Especially late in the game when he's seldom in range to provide chip damage anyway. 

As for dark flier, yeah probably. I don't have the DLC, but I think the viability of all mages should go up immediately when you put them on a mount as early as you want in a game. I also think when you have access to a mount, Recover becomes as good as physic. You can keep up with the rest of the pack with Heal and Recover and not have to rely on the healing staff to top off units. Of course mages have so much inventory space that if you do have a spare healing staff you may as well throw it on anyway and equip it for any turn you need more healing. A lot of scarcity-based arguments like "we only have two healing staffs" fade away when DLC is considered.

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I have just found a nice niche of Balthus that none here seems to have mentioned. His support with Hilda is a special one that grants +mt.

I am on maddening SS and was wondering why Balthus was hitting harder than expected. The +3 mt from an A support adjutant doesn’t seem much, but it multiplies into +6 or +9 (Fierce Iron Fist) when Balthus is using gauntlets.

Another Grappler that shares this trait is Raphael, with the support from Ignatz. (Edit: Raphael is definitely not the only one. There’s Felix but we’ll simplify the discussion.) The difference between them is that Balthus has better speed and res as well as a Faith boon. The former makes Balthus more durable against mages and the latter allows him to grab brawl avoid +20 from War Monk with ease. One more difference is that Hilda can be a guard adjutant more easily than Ignatz, improving the survivability of Balthus as a tank. I actually find Balthus’s tanking ability good, while simultaneously being a murder machine, in my current playthrough.

Balthus is obviously not limited to earlygame. He should be a fine addition to VW since Hilda and Balthus both comes free. If one fails to impress you, make him/her the (guard) adjutant of the other, so her/him will have a chance to shine in the endgame.

Edited by Wishblade

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20 hours ago, Burklight said:

If, however, I'm misunderstanding where you're coming from again, and you're really just bored and looking for a snide trolling fight, I'm ready to roll.

Sounds fun, but you eventually got there so no need. 
 

18 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

... I think the viability of all mages should go up immediately when you put them on a mount as early as you want in a game. 

Huh? The new classes are only available at level 20+. 

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1 hour ago, ApocaLips said:

Huh? The new classes are only available at level 20+. 

You wouldn't believe how little information exists online about this stuff. That's why I try not to theorycraft

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18 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

You wouldn't believe how little information exists online about this stuff. That's why I try not to theorycraft

You also only get 4 free Abyssian Exam Passes (DLC class promotional item) from recruiting all Ashen Wolves Units (each come with 1 in their inventory), if you want more you have to spend 500 Renown to unlock the shop and then 750 Renown for each Pass.

Edited by Ari Chan

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1 hour ago, Ari Chan said:

You also only get 4 free Abyssian Exam Passes (DLC class promotional item) from recruiting all Ashen Wolves Units (each come with 1 in their inventory), if you want more you have to spend 500 Renown to unlock the shop and then 750 Renown for each Pass.

But, the DLC also allows you to sell items for renown now, so it's much easier to acquire on paper.

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9 hours ago, Cysx said:

But, the DLC also allows you to sell items for renown now, so it's much easier to acquire on paper.

Oh mb I forgot you can give the Altar items for Renown, so it's much easier so get the 4 Saint Statues bonuses in a fresh NG run now.

4 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Doesn't the DLC also give you 10000 renown flat out that you can claim?

Oh really? Guess I have to complete CS to claim it, I stopped playing after recruiting Balthus, well I'll have to complete the story now to get the Renown and unlock 2 paralogues for my future playthroughs. 

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3 hours ago, Ari Chan said:

Oh mb I forgot you can give the Altar items for Renown, so it's much easier so get the 4 Saint Statues bonuses in a fresh NG run now.

I don't think we really should consider renown for tiering/the limited amount of free Abyssian Exam Passes.

On 2/27/2020 at 4:45 PM, Glennstavos said:

As for dark flier, yeah probably. I don't have the DLC, but I think the viability of all mages should go up immediately when you put them on a mount as early as you want in a game. I also think when you have access to a mount, Recover becomes as good as physic. You can keep up with the rest of the pack with Heal and Recover and not have to rely on the healing staff to top off units. Of course mages have so much inventory space that if you do have a spare healing staff you may as well throw it on anyway and equip it for any turn you need more healing. A lot of scarcity-based arguments like "we only have two healing staffs" fade away when DLC is considered.

I mostly agree with this. Personally I still think physics is better imo but yeah recover has become a lot better. Dorothea is the only one I am not sure if she really got buffed or not because it requires lots of investment for her to get to dark flier, but all the other female mages def got buffed.

On 2/27/2020 at 11:02 AM, ApocaLips said:

Yuri also seems great, with a growth spread comparable to Petra and Leonie, but again without the need to meet recruitment requirements. He then gets a hero relic, which pairs with his major crest for solid damage reduction as Felix’s does with his aegis shield. I usually give it to Yuri for that reason, and the relic also basically makes him a mounted unit in non-mounted classes, giving him the flexibility to use low-requirement classes like Sniper while gunning for authority rank, which tends to effectively put him way ahead on stats for a huge chunk of the game. 

its his proficiency spread that makes him a very awkward unit; however, he has an advantage of getting windsweep early at c+ in swords where everybody else gets it at a. I honestly think his best class is mortal sevant or possibly bow knight/sniper. Haven't used him yet so can't tell.

Edited by leesangstar10

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15 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

its his proficiency spread that makes him a very awkward unit.

If you’d look at the builds that people are discussing for him in this thread and the thread about best classes for the DLC units, you’d see that his proficiencies are far from a hinderance for him. 

Edited by ApocaLips

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9 hours ago, ApocaLips said:

If you’d look at the builds that people are discussing for him in this thread and the thread about best classes for the DLC units, you’d see that his proficiencies are far from a hinderance for him. 

yeah most ppl r saying trickster/sniper which imo are below average to average end game classes. Its hard for him to become a top tier class without requiring lots of investment. 

And now in the OP I have included the new units and changes

General gist is:

female mages got bumped/stayed(except lysithea)

rip male mages

cross recruitment unit is bumped down.

New units placing(will be the same all routes):

Constance B+, Hapi B, Yuri B, Balthus C.

Explanation for these units will be posted eventually.

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24 minutes ago, leesangstar10 said:

Balthus C.

I don’t see why Raphael get B on VW while Balthus is only C?

Raphael beats Balthus in HP, dex and luck and Balthus beats Raphael in speed and res. They share the same str and def, fulfill roughly the same role and have roughly the same availability. Is there any reason for Raphael to beat Balthus by 1 tier?

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