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Route specific tier list

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9 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

yeah most ppl r saying trickster/sniper which imo are below average to average end game classes. Its hard for him to become a top tier class without requiring lots of investment. 

And now in the OP I have included the new units and changes

General gist is:

female mages got bumped/stayed(except lysithea)

rip male mages

cross recruitment unit is bumped down.

New units placing(will be the same all routes):

Constance B+, Hapi B, Yuri B, Balthus C.

Explanation for these units will be posted eventually.

Trickster is ass. You should take a closer look, the tl;dr is sniper or dancer. I’ve tried both, they’re amazing. Yuri as a Sniper basically makes him a bowknight without the terrain problems and with hunter’s volley, and as a dancer with his authority boon he’s basically knight ring reyson but way, way tankier. And since he doesn’t need to grind toward master class requirements, he can pump authority early, giving him his choice of amazing stats or utility. All of this with a growth spread comparable to Leonie/Petra, who are supposed to be balanced around not having crests. Oh, and by the way, he also gets deadeye and has the highest strength growth among those who do. 

If your answer to all of this is “well, he can’t be one of the 3-5 wyverns on the team,” smh. 
 

FYI, in practice Dark Flier is being overrated. The best combat mages don’t really want it (lysithea for example doesn’t get a tomefaire out of it, Constance doesn’t need it thanks to bolting, Hubert can’t get it), which basically means you’re trading uses and possibly healing from bishop/gremory on warp/physic users, or a shot of meteor for Dorothea, just for flight - which only lets you get subpar combat units into combat more often. Not great. Also its stats are ass.

As for your ratings of the dlc units - I thought you said you haven’t used them? Your ratings are very off. Hapi has the best spell list in the game hands down, Constance comes online way earlier than most mages and is a ridiculous bolting machine through endgame, and Balthus is pretty close to dedue early game, but with way better availability and a better endgame. Also, there’s zero chance they should be the same across all four routes. For example, BE and Church have access to Lindhardt by default, who steps on Hapi’s toes quite a bit since he has almost the same faith list with a faith boon, and Hubert already has Banshee for the early game, so her stock goes down there. On the two routes that otherwise would have to recruit Lindhardt to access that faith list (and can’t get Hubert at all, let alone have both by default), she’s much better. 

Edited by ApocaLips

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3 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

yeah most ppl r saying trickster/sniper which imo are below average to average end game classes. Its hard for him to become a top tier class without requiring lots of investment. 

And now in the OP I have included the new units and changes

General gist is:

female mages got bumped/stayed(except lysithea)

rip male mages

cross recruitment unit is bumped down.

New units placing(will be the same all routes):

Constance B+, Hapi B, Yuri B, Balthus C.

Explanation for these units will be posted eventually.

It definitely shouldn’t be the same across all routes for the new recruits. Constance’s Linked Attack utility with Bolting is more useful on CF than other routes since two great combat units that benefit from it are exclusive to that route (Edelgard and Jeritza), and one is native to it (Ferdinand). Constance is also the only viable Rescue user on that route, so she gains from that, too. She’s easily A tier in CF. B+ is probably fine in other routes, though. 

Hapi is definitely better in BL than in the other routes since BL is the only one without a Warp unit. Adding to that, her access to 3 range magic is somewhat more valuable in BL since none of the starting mages there have it. I’d put her at B+ in that route, B in others. 

Balthus is not much different across routes, but he’s a welcome upgrade over Caspar and Raphael with better bases and a way better personal that essentially gives him Death Blow and Armored Blow for both phases, so long as his HP is <= 50%. He even has slightly better Protection than Dedue under these conditions. Easy access to War Monk is also quite nice for Brawl Avo +20. If Dedue stays at A, Balthus belongs there too, but I’d say both are probably B+ tier. 

I’m not certain about Yuri yet. I went Mage -> Trickster and had him as a Mortal Savant for a bit near the end. I definitely missed the lack of a Faire skill while in Trickster, and Foul Play wasn’t that useful for me. Assassin is strictly better if you want to use swords since Yuri’s spell list is lackluster. I actually don’t think Sniper is that great either. Hunter’s Volley is redundant since Yuri pretty much doubles everything besides Assassins and Swordmasters. I’m not really sure what his best class is yet, but B-tier seems accurate. 

Edited by LegendOfLoog

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4 hours ago, LegendOfLoog said:

Balthus is not much different across routes, but he’s a welcome upgrade over Caspar and Raphael with better bases and a way better personal that essentially gives him Death Blow and Armored Blow for both phases, so long as his HP is <= 50%. He even has slightly better Protection than Dedue under these conditions. Easy access to War Monk is also quite nice for Brawl Avo +20. If Dedue stays at A, Balthus belongs there too, but I’d say both are probably B+ tier. 

Balthus is definitely better than Caspar and Raphael (which isn't much of an achievement considering how bad those 2 units are) but he's not as good as Dedue. Dedue has better bases at the same Lv, Balthus's personal is harder to activate and maintain compared to Dedue's, it also requires you to keep him lower than half health all time which is rather risky and limits his ability to tank during enemy phase, on the other hand Dedue's personal is very easy to keep activated. On top of that he doesn't learn any good mid-game Combat Arts while Dedue gets Vengance and One-Two Punch at C rank which allows him to reliably one round many enemies. Balthus having easier access to War Monk for Brawl Avo is pretty much his only advantage over Dedue  and the skill is locked behind an Advanced Tier Class which takes a lot of time to get.

Edited by Ari Chan

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8 hours ago, Ari Chan said:

Balthus is definitely better than Caspar and Raphael (which isn't much of an achievement considering how bad those 2 units are) but he's not as good as Dedue. Dedue has better bases at the same Lv, Balthus's personal is harder to activate and maintain compared to Dedue's, it also requires you to keep him lower than half health all time which is rather risky and limits his ability to tank during enemy phase, on the other hand Dedue's personal is very easy to keep activated. On top of that he doesn't learn any good mid-game Combat Arts while Dedue gets Vengance and One-Two Punch at C rank which allows him to reliably one round many enemies. Balthus having easier access to War Monk for Brawl Avo is pretty much his only advantage over Dedue  and the skill is locked behind an Advanced Tier Class which takes a lot of time to get.

It’s fairly easy to activate Balthus’s personal since one Thief attacking can do it. His personal is also much more useful on Player Phase. In Chapter 2, he joins as a Level 3 unit, so he should have 12 Strength, and his personal gives +6 Strength. A Rally Strength can push him into one rounding Fighters and Archers with Iron Gauntlets. Even if you don’t have any Rallies, a Gauntlets user with 19 Atk that early on is fairly useful. It does require some HP manipulation to work properly, but it isn’t particularly difficult. Balthus’s tanking capability is limited, so I would still give the edge early on to Dedue. 

Vengeance is ok, but in order to OHKO, you need a lot of HP missing, which is similar to the problem with Balthus, but it’s even worse since you get no stat boosts for it. One-Two Punch is better, but it allows for retaliation, which isn’t great. Balthus has Eviscerate from his Relic, which is decent, but yeah, I’ll give that Dedue has a better Combat Art list. Still though, Balthus’s personal becomes more practical during this time as your units catch up to enemy stats, so he shouldn’t have issues with ORKOs either. 

There are other advantages than just that. Brawl Avoid +20 is one if you want to take him down Grappler or War Master, but having the perfect proficiencies for picking up Vantage and Wrath is another, which allows for completely safe usage of his personal and makes him a great Enemy Phase unit. Quick Riposte makes it even more reliable to get in that range, but that’s a fairly late pickup (earliest I’ve gotten it was Chapter 17). Dedue also drops off hard post-skip. He rejoins late, is under-leveled, and has lower skill proficiencies than all of your units. His tanking capability is all but gone at that point. While early game is important and Dedue is better there, Dedue’s late game is bad enough to balance him out with Balthus, imo. 

Edited by LegendOfLoog

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19 hours ago, Wishblade said:

I don’t see why Raphael get B on VW while Balthus is only C?

Raphael beats Balthus in HP, dex and luck and Balthus beats Raphael in speed and res. They share the same str and def, fulfill roughly the same role and have roughly the same availability. Is there any reason for Raphael to beat Balthus by 1 tier?

For now I assumed the player hasn't beaten cindered shadows. I am debating whether if I should assume so or not.(Also i did not know this until now) I mean it really depends if people think we should or not(i could also put in two diff placing like how i did with Sylvain)

18 hours ago, ApocaLips said:

Trickster is ass. You should take a closer look, the tl;dr is sniper or dancer. I’ve tried both, they’re amazing. Yuri as a Sniper basically makes him a bowknight without the terrain problems and with hunter’s volley, and as a dancer with his authority boon he’s basically knight ring reyson but way, way tankier. And since he doesn’t need to grind toward master class requirements, he can pump authority early, giving him his choice of amazing stats or utility. All of this with a growth spread comparable to Leonie/Petra, who are supposed to be balanced around not having crests. Oh, and by the way, he also gets deadeye and has the highest strength growth among those who do. 

If your answer to all of this is “well, he can’t be one of the 3-5 wyverns on the team,” smh. 

You should take a good look at the rules that I put in the OP. I don't consider dancers. Anybody can be a dancer and be at least A tier. I am considering putting dancer in the tier list though. Also just because he has the ring, doesn't mean he is the only one that can use it. For example, Felix could do the exact same build but better since he has a better str growth, proficient with bow from the start. 

18 hours ago, ApocaLips said:

FYI, in practice Dark Flier is being overrated. The best combat mages don’t really want it (lysithea for example doesn’t get a tomefaire out of it, Constance doesn’t need it thanks to bolting, Hubert can’t get it), which basically means you’re trading uses and possibly healing from bishop/gremory on warp/physic users, or a shot of meteor for Dorothea, just for flight - which only lets you get subpar combat units into combat more often. Not great. Also its stats are ass.

Well I clearly stated that this is a general summary of the changes. This doesn't apply to everybody(I even stated lysithea as an exception). It is still a better alternative than warlock for most units(especially annette) and it is enough reason for most female mages to get a bump at least cause their mov problem is fixed in the mid game. 

18 hours ago, ApocaLips said:

Your ratings are very off. Hapi has the best spell list in the game hands down, Constance comes online way earlier than most mages and is a ridiculous bolting machine through endgame, and Balthus is pretty close to dedue early game, but with way better availability and a better endgame. Also, there’s zero chance they should be the same across all four routes. For example, BE and Church have access to Lindhardt by default, who steps on Hapi’s toes quite a bit since he has almost the same faith list with a faith boon, and Hubert already has Banshee for the early game, so her stock goes down there. On the two routes that otherwise would have to recruit Lindhardt to access that faith list (and can’t get Hubert at all, let alone have both by default), she’s much better. 

To be more specific, I haven't finished using them(I recruited them in the middle of a playthrough). Also if you are going to critique my list please at least tell me what is wrong. Sure I realized that I underrated Hapi but tell me [insert unit] should be at [insert tier] cause he/she has amazing [insert reason]. Also I mentioned this, but please look at the rules I put in the OP. I am rating them individually. Just because a route comes with said unit doesn't mean the player themselves have to use that unit. [also these placing may seem lower than they should be as i didn't know they are instant recruit if you beat cindered shadows]

16 hours ago, LegendOfLoog said:

It definitely shouldn’t be the same across all routes for the new recruits. Constance’s Linked Attack utility with Bolting is more useful on CF than other routes since two great combat units that benefit from it are exclusive to that route (Edelgard and Jeritza), and one is native to it (Ferdinand). Constance is also the only viable Rescue user on that route, so she gains from that, too. She’s easily A tier in CF. B+ is probably fine in other routes, though. 

Hapi is definitely better in BL than in the other routes since BL is the only one without a Warp unit. Adding to that, her access to 3 range magic is somewhat more valuable in BL since none of the starting mages there have it. I’d put her at B+ in that route, B in others. 

Again nobody is reading the rules. This is getting really annoying.

11 hours ago, Ari Chan said:

Balthus is definitely better than Caspar and Raphael (which isn't much of an achievement considering how bad those 2 units are) but he's not as good as Dedue. Dedue has better bases at the same Lv, Balthus's personal is harder to activate and maintain compared to Dedue's, it also requires you to keep him lower than half health all time which is rather risky and limits his ability to tank during enemy phase, on the other hand Dedue's personal is very easy to keep activated. On top of that he doesn't learn any good mid-game Combat Arts while Dedue gets Vengance and One-Two Punch at C rank which allows him to reliably one round many enemies. Balthus having easier access to War Monk for Brawl Avo is pretty much his only advantage over Dedue  and the skill is locked behind an Advanced Tier Class which takes a lot of time to get.

Now thinking about it, honestly Caspar should be moved down cause he's getting doubled no matter what.

 

Changes:

Hapi B->B+

Caspar & Alois C+ -> C

Balthus C->C+

Debating where to put Raph now

Edited by leesangstar10

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1 hour ago, leesangstar10 said:

Again nobody is reading the rules. This is getting really annoying.

Fair enough, the Hapi part is based off team synergy, so it’s fine to disregard that. The Constance part isn’t, though. She’s the only mage who can use Rescue on CF. Her utility with Bolting is always better on CF because two of her support partners are exclusive to that route. Those bonuses are inherent to that route only, so I stand by rating her higher on CF than other routes. 

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1 hour ago, leesangstar10 said:

Debating where to put Raph now

Raphael has access to rally strength, doesn’t come with an authority weakness and has better bases + growth distribution than Caspar, I think he should be at the top of C tier or bottom of C+ tier.

Edited by Ari Chan

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43 minutes ago, leesangstar10 said:

You should take a good look at the rules that I put in the OP. I don't consider dancers.

This portion of the chain goes back to a comment I previously made, not your list. If you’re going to make a bad technical argument, at least make sure it applies. 

 

46 minutes ago, leesangstar10 said:

Well I clearly stated that this is a general summary of the changes. 

Okay? The logic is still faulty. A lot of the female mages don’t want the class for one reason or another, and still more would just prefer Bishop. 

 

49 minutes ago, leesangstar10 said:

Also if you are going to critique my list please at least tell me what is wrong.

I already explained a chunk of my reasoning in this thread. You’ve yet to provide any response - you instead just slapped letter grades onto them. The ball’s in your court. I can’t respond to your rationale when I don’t have it other than to comment that the result seems very off. 

 

1 hour ago, leesangstar10 said:

Again nobody is reading the rules. This is getting really annoying.

If this is a recurring issue, maybe it’s the rules that are a problem. 

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3 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

For now I assumed the player hasn't beaten cindered shadows. I am debating whether if I should assume so or not.(Also i did not know this until now) I mean it really depends if people think we should or not(i could also put in two diff placing like how i did with Sylvain)

Why is this a problem? If a player hasn’t beaten Cindered Shadow then the Ashen Wolves have no place in the tier list at all because they aren’t recruitable.

3 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

Changes:

Hapi B->B+

Caspar & Alois C+ -> C

Balthus C->C+

Debating where to put Raph now

Constance is easily A on AM because it’s the route with the heaviest ballista problem. Just look at the final 3 maps. Bolting removes these ballistas with ease and makes the maps significantly easier. Some people have told me Rescue is also useful and I suppose that provides another means of deleting ballista/bolting/meteor mages, which are plentiful on AM.

Hapi is also easily A tier material. Her personal skill is cheating and turns shield-breaking into null problems. Even if she isn’t a Valkyrie, she still has Death Γ that can break shield AND outrange monsters. Physic makes her a good healer. Add Warp and she’s a monster mage. Lysithea and Constance aside, I’ve never seen a mage with a better spell list.

Edited by Wishblade

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2 hours ago, ApocaLips said:

This portion of the chain goes back to a comment I previously made, not your list. If you’re going to make a bad technical argument, at least make sure it applies. 

Literally nobody mentioned dancer yuri but me and it was for a question based on his relic ring whether if canto works on everybody or just him, and it turns out it works on everybody so he's not the best dancer. At least I am consistent in what I say.

Also you quoted the whole thing. So I'd assume you also wanted to talk about the tier list as well, my bad for misunderstanding.

2 hours ago, ApocaLips said:

Okay? The logic is still faulty. A lot of the female mages don’t want the class for one reason or another, and still more would just prefer Bishop. 

My bad for not being specific enough.

2 hours ago, ApocaLips said:

I already explained a chunk of my reasoning in this thread. You’ve yet to provide any response - you instead just slapped letter grades onto them. The ball’s in your court. I can’t respond to your rationale when I don’t have it other than to comment that the result seems very off. 

Your response was "Hapi has a good spell list" and such. That is just stating facts/evidence. Be more specific. Say "I think you underrated/overrated x unit cause of [some fact/evidence]. I think x unit should be in A tier" or something like this. You just telling me that this unit is good doesn't help me or this tier list.

2 hours ago, ApocaLips said:

If this is a recurring issue, maybe it’s the rules that are a problem. 

Sure I agree that the rules could use some improvements. I don't think it is the best hence why I changed it before.

2 hours ago, LegendOfLoog said:

Her utility with Bolting is always better on CF because two of her support partners are exclusive to that route. Those bonuses are inherent to that route only

Isn't this technically team synergy...

Idk just rescue alone I feel isn't enough to bump her a tier above, but I am still considering moving her up.

2 hours ago, Ari Chan said:

Raphael has access to rally strength, doesn’t come with an authority weakness and has better bases + growth distribution than Caspar, I think he should be at the top of C tier or bottom of C+ tier.

Maybe, for now hes at least top of C.

48 minutes ago, Wishblade said:

Why is this a problem? If a player hasn’t beaten Cindered Shadow then the Ashen Wolves have no place in the tier list at all because they aren’t recruitable.

(recruited them in a new game+ file so not knowing this is my fault lol) yeah i'll just assume players beaten cindered shadow.

48 minutes ago, Wishblade said:

Constance is easily A on AM because it’s the route with the heaviest ballista problem. Just look at the final 3 maps. Bolting removes these ballistas with ease and makes the maps significantly easier. Some people have told me Rescue is also useful and I suppose that provides another means of deleting ballista/bolting/meteor mages, which are plentiful on AM.

Hapi is also easily A tier material. Her personal skill is cheating and turns shield-breaking into null problems. Even if she isn’t a Valkyrie, she still has Death Γ that can break shield AND outrange monsters. Physic makes her a good healer. Add Warp and she’s a monster mage. Lysithea and Constance aside, I’ve never seen a mage with a better spell list.

Honestly might move them up cause my dumbass thought they had recruitment requirement cause most ppl do think they should be higher.

Edited by leesangstar10

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50 minutes ago, leesangstar10 said:

Your response was "Hapi has a good spell list" and such. That is just stating facts/evidence. Be more specific. 

1) no it’s not. A characterization of data isn’t evidence. 
 

2) I’ve already given plenty of points on this. For example, one of my posts from a page ago is copied below. You responded to only like a third of it with a bad point about Yuri’s boons and banes and haven’t addressed the rest. There’s plenty more from me and others if you actually care to look and discuss, but it seems you’d rather spout out random letters without giving a basis and then attack people when they disagree.

————————

Hapi for example is an excellent alternative to Lindhardt - she’s got mostly the same great faith list (physic, warp) but with a much, much better reason list (particularly banshee and death) and access to multiple good endgame classes (gremory, dark flier) that Lindhardt would kill for. You also don’t need to expend any resources recruiting her. All of this in exchange for an authority bane and not having a Faith boon - that slows down her access to physic and warp a bit, but I still usually get warp by chapter 8 or 9. She may displace him in a lot of runs. 
 

Similarly, I’m starting to greatly prefer Constance to all other combat mages. About 4.5 shots of bolting on average plus the best rescue user in the game (thanks to an excellent magic growth, as well as generally not being a shit unit) gives her a combination of power and utility that’s unmatched by anyone else. It’s almost as if she gets to just remove any 4-5 units from the map - not even lysithea as dark knight with Thyrsus has that kind of flexibility with her combat. She starts off fine with decent bases, gets to A rank reason pretty quickly if you invest a bit, and can make due with Thyrsus during the gap. She also doesn’t have the lull during the advanced class stage that other mages have because bolting and rescue offset the low move, and she generally gets a ton out of being a warlock (extra boltings, tomefaire). 
 

Yuri also seems great, with a growth spread comparable to Petra and Leonie, but again without the need to meet recruitment requirements. He then gets a hero relic, which pairs with his major crest for solid damage reduction as Felix’s does with his aegis shield. I usually give it to Yuri for that reason, and the relic also basically makes him a mounted unit in non-mounted classes, giving him the flexibility to use low-requirement classes like Sniper while gunning for authority rank, which tends to effectively put him way ahead on stats for a huge chunk of the game. 

Edited by ApocaLips

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1 hour ago, leesangstar10 said:

Isn't this technically team synergy...

Idk just rescue alone I feel isn't enough to bump her a tier above, but I am still considering moving her up.

Sort of, but there are a few reasons I think it’s different from most other examples of team synergy. Siege magic is not only useful for the actual spell. A significant part of why it’s good is the ability to provide Linked Attacks and Gambit Boosts to your units without having to be anywhere near the target. Constance doesn’t provide her “peak” level of utility from this spell unless she’s in CF since Jeritza and Edelgard are exclusive to those routes. So to me, it’s more of a situation where she doesn’t get the full value of the spell unless you’re in CF, so naturally, the value of Constance’s Bolting should be higher in CF as a result. And Rescue on an actual good unit is fairly useful in either getting units out of a jam or speeding up maps by bringing units pursuing side objectives (chests, siege weapons, etc) back to the main force quickly. I found it pretty great personally, particularly in saving green units and safely eliminating threats, but your mileage may vary on that. 

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3 hours ago, ApocaLips said:

1) no it’s not. A characterization of data isn’t evidence. 

so is it an argument then?

3 hours ago, ApocaLips said:

2) I’ve already given plenty of points on this. For example, one of my posts from a page ago is copied below. You responded to only like a third of it with a bad point about Yuri’s boons and banes and haven’t addressed the rest. There’s plenty more from me and others if you actually care to look and discuss, but it seems you’d rather spout out random letters without giving a basis and then attack people when they disagree.

1) Can you tell EXACTLY what is wrong. Dont tell me it is wrong, but why. You just characterize data and never really make a point. That isn't telling me if I underrated or overrated a unit.

2) So am i suppose to look at every single post and comment on everything? I got places to be, Im sure you got places to be as well. Im not perfect there are things that I will overlook and I apologies for that.

3) I only pointed out yuri because that is the one thing I disagree with you. The rest is fine. 

4) You accuse me of attacking people.That is pretty hypocritical considering you attack people.

evidence:

On 2/27/2020 at 2:02 PM, ApocaLips said:

I’m not missing my own point, lol. If you can take a break from trying to tell everyone how wrong they are, you might see that what I’m saying is that the existence of certain new units may stand to radically shake up the tier list because they bring similar benefits to units you’d otherwise need to spend time and resources recruiting. So they could affect the relative rankings of more than just themselves because they change the calculus as to opportunity cost.

 

On 3/1/2020 at 10:45 PM, ApocaLips said:

If your answer to all of this is “well, he can’t be one of the 3-5 wyverns on the team,” smh. 

 

On 3/1/2020 at 10:45 PM, ApocaLips said:

Your ratings are very off.

 

6 hours ago, ApocaLips said:

This portion of the chain goes back to a comment I previously made, not your list. If you’re going to make a bad technical argument, at least make sure it applies. 

 

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Looking back, the most notable disagreement from me is probably having Alois in tiers that include the likes of Ashe, Caspar, etc. His A axe rank, B gauntlets, and solid authority recruit ranks are extremely efficient for a Brawler/WM, which makes him almost always a solid replacement for an underperforming house member at his time of recruitment. He's consistently a top 6 or so unit on any of my NG maddening pt's when I use him, but I am partial to quick riposte Brawlers, so there's some personal preference bias here, but his bases and skill ranks are worthy of B tier on any route, and I especially like him on church as a guaranteed solid deployment where usually one or two students are rng screwed without save scumming.

Also, Jeritza should be like S tier, or in between A+ and Male Blyleth. Mastermind with immediate brigand reclassification, darting blow from a few tutoring sessions in flying, and the ability to be the (likely) only faire user you obtain on no grind with knowledge gem/mm in lances, plus counter attack... he's an OP unit that has the tools to catch up within a chapter or two for endgame. Darting/death blow + counter attack (it is still better than retribution as it requires no support or thought on positioning from other units) is borderline create a character skills, with great bases and growths. Even with availability issues, he can single handedly reduce turn count or handle problematic enemies (bolting mages chapter 17 for example) from his recruitment to endgame.

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3 hours ago, Relytive said:

Also, Jeritza should be like S tier, or in between A+ and Male Blyleth. Mastermind with immediate brigand reclassification, darting blow from a few tutoring sessions in flying, and the ability to be the (likely) only faire user you obtain on no grind with knowledge gem/mm in lances, plus counter attack... he's an OP unit that has the tools to catch up within a chapter or two for endgame. Darting/death blow + counter attack (it is still better than retribution as it requires no support or thought on positioning from other units) is borderline create a character skills, with great bases and growths. Even with availability issues, he can single handedly reduce turn count or handle problematic enemies (bolting mages chapter 17 for example) from his recruitment to endgame.

All of this is true, but he's also only available for a third of the game. You get him on chapter 13 in a route that only has 17 chapters. It's doubtful he does more work than someone like Ferdinand or Sylvain over the course of an entire run. Particularly when early game MM is the hardest part, and he's absent for it.

Unrelated, I'm petitioning for either AM Dedue to be C+ tier, or Balthus on VW/SS/CF to be moved to A tier, because they are basically the same unit early game, which from my understanding is why Dedue is so high.

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4 hours ago, Relytive said:

Also, Jeritza should be like S tier, or in between A+ and Male Blyleth. Mastermind with immediate brigand reclassification, darting blow from a few tutoring sessions in flying, and the ability to be the (likely) only faire user you obtain on no grind with knowledge gem/mm in lances, plus counter attack... he's an OP unit that has the tools to catch up within a chapter or two for endgame. Darting/death blow + counter attack (it is still better than retribution as it requires no support or thought on positioning from other units) is borderline create a character skills, with great bases and growths. Even with availability issues, he can single handedly reduce turn count or handle problematic enemies (bolting mages chapter 17 for example) from his recruitment to endgame.

Problem is, whilst all of this is true, he has availability issues. I just cannot see him in S tier when he only has 1/3 of the game to contribute.

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15 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

Nonsubstantive post

There’s nothing to address here other than to note how amusing it is that you consider the statement “Your ratings are very off” to be “attacking,” and that you continue to demand a level of explanation to your arbitrary satisfaction when you’ve yet to provide any reasoning or analysis yourself.

If you don’t want to address content within the same page as your posts, even when they are laid out for you again on a silver platter, that’s your prerogative. Just don’t be surprised when others give your assessments essentially no weight. 

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15 hours ago, Relytive said:

Looking back, the most notable disagreement from me is probably having Alois in tiers that include the likes of Ashe, Caspar, etc. His A axe rank, B gauntlets, and solid authority recruit ranks are extremely efficient for a Brawler/WM, which makes him almost always a solid replacement for an underperforming house member at his time of recruitment. He's consistently a top 6 or so unit on any of my NG maddening pt's when I use him, but I am partial to quick riposte Brawlers, so there's some personal preference bias here, but his bases and skill ranks are worthy of B tier on any route, and I especially like him on church as a guaranteed solid deployment where usually one or two students are rng screwed without save scumming.

Also, Jeritza should be like S tier, or in between A+ and Male Blyleth. Mastermind with immediate brigand reclassification, darting blow from a few tutoring sessions in flying, and the ability to be the (likely) only faire user you obtain on no grind with knowledge gem/mm in lances, plus counter attack... he's an OP unit that has the tools to catch up within a chapter or two for endgame. Darting/death blow + counter attack (it is still better than retribution as it requires no support or thought on positioning from other units) is borderline create a character skills, with great bases and growths. Even with availability issues, he can single handedly reduce turn count or handle problematic enemies (bolting mages chapter 17 for example) from his recruitment to endgame.

Imo Alois should be in C at least for CF. His availability is very bad especially in this route cause part 2 is shorter. Can't master skills like QR and DB as quickly before the last map.

For Alois vs Caspar debate, ppl said that Caspar is better cause late recruited stats are similar to Alois, but Caspar has the flexibility to pick up useful skills like DB and others(me included) said Alois is better for overall stat and weapon proficiency. For now I just had them in a tie.

Jeritza, while has insane stats, skills, and proficiency, he's only available for 1/3 of the game. Its like the same argument ppl make for fe7 how athos is S tier.

11 hours ago, Burklight said:

Unrelated, I'm petitioning for either AM Dedue to be C+ tier, or Balthus on VW/SS/CF to be moved to A tier, because they are basically the same unit early game, which from my understanding is why Dedue is so high.

Early game contribution > late game contribution.

Dedue has better stats and personal; however, I do feel A is actually to high cause his late game contribution isn't that great.

I am thinking about getting rid of C tier cause the gap between C+ units and C units isn't that big.

Edited by leesangstar10

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4 minutes ago, leesangstar10 said:

Early game contribution > late game contribution.

Dedue has better stats and personal; however, I do feel A is actually to high cause his late game contribution isn't that great.

I am thinking about getting rid of C tier cause the gap between C+ units and C units isn't that big.

Totally agree that early game is more important. I think putting both of them in A makes the makes the most sense, but there shouldn't be two tiers between the two as they are essentially the same unit. Balthus is the "I don't die to physical damage pre chapter 5" for not BL. 

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