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Timlugia

So about the "Vessel"

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In the chapter 12 of non-CF route, there was a scene between three Nabatean (Rhea, Seteth, and Flayn) discussing the nature of Byleth

Rhea compared Byleth to a vessel for Sothis, that soon Byleth will become one with Sothis.

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Rhea: In a sense. Our dear professor is a vessel,. One who carries the power of the progenitor god. In time, the vessel will become one with the power contained within, and the progenitor god shall return to this world

I found it interesting on how to interpret this scene. What does it really mean "Became one with the power within"?

The most traditional interpretation is based on prior title Awakening, that vessel (Robin) would lost themselves, and practically dies when merge with the dragon soul (Grima). So based on this school of thought, Byleth would soon die or lost themselves in the process.

But the subsequent discussion in the same scene seems to me contradicting this theory:

Flayn soon appear and admits she was listening the discussion, and she insists to help Byleth. Seteth agrees, stated that Flayn owns her life to Byleth from previous events. It seems to me there is no indication between them that either of them believed Byleth would "die" in the process. Flayn was genuinely admiring and cares about the professor yet she wasn't distressed nor alarmed about what Rhea says.

Furthermore, after timeskip, neither Seteth nor Flayn ever question if Byleth has merged with Sothis. Seteth's A support, despite focus on Byleth's identity, didn't bring out this topic either

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Seteth: You own your life to the professor, after all. And in the end, they may proven to be our brethren.

This line stands out to me, as far as I know, this is the only time Byleth was actually addressed as plural in the game.  Could that be Seteth believes in co-existence of both Byleth and Sothis?

How do you guys interpret this scene? How would you explain Flayn and Seteth's reaction?

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29 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

This line stands out to me, as far as I know, this is the only time Byleth was actually addressed as plural in the game.  Could that be Seteth believes in co-existence of both Byleth and Sothis?

Not going to talk about the rest of it, but that's not a plural; it's gender-neutral singular, so it has no bearing on your case.

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2 hours ago, Seafarer said:

Not going to talk about the rest of it, but that's not a plural; it's gender-neutral singular, so it has no bearing on your case.

Why use gender-neutral singular here when rest of the game conversation has gender specific version?

 

Edited by Timlugia

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It's possible that the vessel thing is different than it was with Robin. Grima was a false god created by a creepy cult leader, as shown in Shadows of Valentia. Sothis is a gentle motherly goddess. So being a vessel for Grima is harder on someone and more likely to kill them, it's not too far of a stretch to believe. Personally I think Byleth will live for maybe a 100 years or a few more, and then Sothis will return to the world when Byleth dies naturally.

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6 hours ago, Timlugia said:

Why use gender-neutral singular here when rest of the game conversation has gender specific version?

Where is the conversation you're referring to? If I recall, Byleth is almost exclusively referred to in a gender-neutral fashion, which includes singular "they". I imagine that to be the case here.

Also Rhea almost gets it, waiting for Sothis to emerge from Byleth after it already happens. Presumably she expects more of a takeover to occur (Sothis-dominant), rather than the Byleth-dominant merger that takes place.

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If you pay attention to the Silver Snow chapter 21 dialogue, Rhea mentions how she was expecting Sothis to replace Byleth, but instead Sothis just gave Byleth her power and disappeared which was not the plan.

Rhea wanted Byleth to be completely replaced by Sothis but this did not happen. I believe chapter 11 when Byleth sits on the throne was when she was expecting this to happen, but she of course had no way of knowing Byleth had already gone.

As for the scene in question, I think Seteth and Flayn aren't aware that Rhea wanted to technically kill Byleth, and think Byleth will just be a fusion of the two, which they are. However I think Rhea is still partially clinging to the fact that Sothis still might return through Byleth which is why she says the progenitor god will return to this world.  

Edited by SpiceMan

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There's a similar discussion in Genealogy of  Holy war about how much Lewyn maintened his conscience or if he was completely replaced by Forseti personality. I think there's not pattern in Fire Emblem of how much the conscience is overwritten.

Is it confirmed that Robin was 100% rewritten by Grima? That said Grima was a malicious entity, I believe "good" dragons prefer not mind rape other human beings even if they can do it 

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1 hour ago, Mylady said:

That said Grima was a malicious entity, I believe "good" dragons prefer not mind rape other human beings even if they can do it 

Exactly. Sothis could've stolen Byleth's body to get herself out of Zahras, but chose to give her agency to save Byleth. So unless Sothis can still come back after Byleth dies by taking their corpse, Rhea's never getting her mother back.

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1 hour ago, Mylady said:

Is it confirmed that Robin was 100% rewritten by Grima? That said Grima was a malicious entity, I believe "good" dragons prefer not mind rape other human beings even if they can do it 

It's not 100% but Grima has power over the body mostly, there were a few occasions that Robin regains control temporarily, mostly obvious in DLC Future Past

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Grima: Rrgh... NOOOOOO! I would CRUSH YOU WORMS if I...could just...CONTROL my BODY... Why does he/she STILL REFUSE to become one with me? Why does he/she INTERFERE?! Damn you, Robin! You...will...PAAAAAAY!

If Lucina's friends were dead

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Lucina: You needn't tell me how much I hate you... I...LOATHE you... But... If you were really Grima, why would you seek your own demise... And why does your voice now seem so...so painfully familiar? You're a human, aren't you—a person, like us? Grima is using you to—

Grima: ...No. As I said, Grima and I are one... ...I can speak my mind like this because we are weakened... ...but that does not mean my mind is free... ...Put aside your sympathy and finish me...

-----------

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Where is the conversation you're referring to? If I recall, Byleth is almost exclusively referred to in a gender-neutral fashion, which includes singular "they". I imagine that to be the case here.

If you mean by the "they" one, it's the opening of chapter 12 in any non-CF path:

If you mean by gender specific conversation, there are a few, Manuela, Dorothea, Sylvan, Hanneman were the most well known. When addressed Byleth with gender neutral term, the game generally used The Professor. I think we are used to "They" because fandom usually use it in respect of different genders, but the game itself almost never used it this way.

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If you pay attention to the Silver Snow chapter 21 dialogue, Rhea mentions how she was expecting Sothis to replace Byleth, but instead Sothis just gave Byleth her power and disappeared which was not the plan.

Her actual line was

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You would be capable of housing the conscience of the progenitor god.

She isn't wrong though, Byleth indeed house the conscience of Sothis even before the game starts, but it doesn't say she would replaces Byleth or how the two conscience would work.

Rhea explains earlier to Byleth about the lost memory, which is another mystery in the game. From chapter 2 we know Rhea wasn't wrong here either, Byleth indeed shares some memory with Sothis as Byleth remembers Red Canyon even they never heard of this place before. But the game never followed up on this plot nor explains how much memories the two share.

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From Sothis own perspective, it seems she considers fusing with Byleth would make Byleth becoming new Sothis, as two conscience became one:

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Now we must pray....no need for words, I know your heart as it is mine.

My soul will join with yours, and you and I will never be apart.

The only one who truly knows the nature of such things is I... Or rather, you.

later Thales literally calling you Sothis when you fighting him further reinforced this theory.

The problem is the way storytelling by having Byleth being mostly silent, makes really hard to say how much change they went through after fusing.

 

For a hypothetical scenario, had Byleth eventually got all the memory from Sothis, what would that make them? As memory and experience heavily influenced one's decision, would that make them "more Sothis"?

 

My head spins really hard everytime we came across this topic, the game just gave too many contradicting explanations on Sothis.😉

Edited by Timlugia

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I suspect Sothis is perfectly intact and could take over Byleth if she wanted to. She just doesn't want to.

Funnily enough, Rhea seems convinced that Byleth's receiving Sothis's reclaimed memories and figuring out the mystery of what they are as a result... but there is no indication that they actually are and Sothis doesn't share them with Byleth in spite of implying she is getting them back.

Edited by Crysta

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10 minutes ago, Crysta said:

I suspect Sothis is perfectly intact and could take over Byleth if she wanted to. She just doesn't want to.

Funnily enough, Rhea seems convinced that Byleth's receiving Sothis's reclaimed memories and figuring out the mystery of what they are as a result... but there is no indication that they actually are and Sothis doesn't share them with Byleth in spite of implying she is getting them back.

I always found it curious but confused about the memory subplot

In part one as I mentioned, it seems that Byleth and Sothis shared their memory to some degree, as Byleth "remembers" Red Canyon despite never visited there

Then you had all the scenes about Sothis slowly recovering her memory, even went on a paralogue for it, but the game never explains how much she recovers nor if they were shared between the two. (again, due to Byleth being mostly silent).

Finally, Rhea told you about the lost memory, but the game then drops it, never mentioned again part two in any route.

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6 hours ago, Timlugia said:

If you mean by the "they" one, it's the opening of chapter 12 in any non-CF path:

If you mean by gender specific conversation, there are a few, Manuela, Dorothea, Sylvan, Hanneman were the most well known. When addressed Byleth with gender neutral term, the game generally used The Professor. I think we are used to "They" because fandom usually use it in respect of different genders, but the game itself almost never used it this way.

Yes, I realize that Byleth is typically referred to as "The Professor" - but that wording, like "they", is gender-neutral. I don't recall any instances in the main story dialogue in which Byleth is referred to, in the third person, as "he" or "she" (granted, there may have been an instance I'm unaware of), so we shouldn't regard it as unusual that Byleth would be referred to as "they".

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