Three Houses does a lot tell and not show

[Jotari]

34 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Re: Cornelia, Edelgard is between a rock and a hard place. She needs to keep the Agarthans in check, but she also needs to keep their support during the war. One thing we don't know is what their losses are doing the war - lots of Imperial soldiers die (Ladislava, Randolph, countless unseen), but it's possible Those Who Slither suffer losses on the Kingdom front (before Byleth and Edelgard actually go there).

As for arrogance, yeah both sides here have an arrogance issue. We see prior instances of Those Who Slither carrying the idiot ball (Solon revealing his whole plan unprompted, Thales not minding when Dimitri/Byleth overhear them, Kronja... wearing high heels so she trips? IDK), so it's possible that Thales (despite seeming the most competent among them) just carries the idiot ball into his own grave. I don't recall seeing that kind of incompetence from Edelgard and Hubert, even if a few of their tactics are questionable. Keep in mind - while the Agarthans have survived, they haven't beaten the Church by any measure. And Rhea, and the Church as a whole, have their own blind spots.

Despite their questionable plot choices in part 1 (which by and large are choices and not mistakes, few if any of them even result in negative repercussions), they do actually succeed in basically everything they set out to do. Their only real failure is Byleth hacking reality and returning from a black hole. And whatever Kronya was trying to do (with the added possibility that she fulfilled her role exactly as intended). It's clear that Edelgard is their long game, basically every action Edelgard takes (except killing Cornelia and in the other routes benefits the Agarthans (and yeah I'm sure Omegaaxis will op up to point out to that one random throw away mission with Jeritza which if anything is just more blatant hand tipping). Even Hubert's letter seems to be something he does entirely on his own motivation as Edelgard seems utterly incapable of conceiving her own defeat, see Azure Moon ending when Dimitri offers a hand of mercy and she responds by knifing him, only Edelgard seems to be anyone she can imagine losing to, as well as all the stuff you've already pointed out where she takes extremly risky maneuvers without even realizing the risk. Even the reason Edelgard is waging this war doesn't make any sense to me and seems to be a notion put in her head by the Agrathans because the church has absolutely zero to do with what happened to her, or well, anything in her life. Even if you buy her motivations for attacking the church as legitimate, where did she get these intentions from? Almost certainly the Agarthans. They've planned, manipulated and shaped every aspect of her life (and possibly even her birth given Patricia is in some way related to the Agarthans) and despite her hatred for them she has constantly furthered their agenda by taking out all of their enemies. Like I said, the way I see it, they've played her like a fiddle and she hasn't realized it at all.

But even then, if we take reality to be what Edelgard thinks it is, both sides are clearly and keenly aware that the other is about to betray them. And just giving the assets the Agarthans hold, namely nukes, nemesis, mech, demonic beasts and the ability to be basically anyone, she just doesn't seem to have the tools to combat them at all. All she has is Hubert. Even Byleth doesn't seem like they'd be useful for this kind of conflict, beyond just being the protagonist and thus guaranteed to win. Is there even a reference to Hubert tracking down Shambala in Crimson Flower? If there isn't, there should be, and even if there is, things are going to be much harder for Edelgard pulling off a full frontal assault than Claude, as the reason Claude did so well is that he took them by surprise which Edelgard can't do (and seems doesn't even intend to do, knifes cutting in the dark over swords on the battlefield and what not) as Thales knows she's coming for him. Edelgard doesn't seem like she's prepared them at all. The javelins of light came as a complete surprise to her and the Death Knight knew about them in other routes before hand, so this means she has either learned less in Crimson Flower or trust less, which doesn't bode well for her in either regard.

[omegaxis1]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

This is one of my biggest issues with Crimson Flowers. Given the way things play out, I'm highly incredulous Edelgard can actually beat the Agarthans. Hubert says it's their arrogance that will cause those who slither to lose, but to me it's Edelgard and Hubert are coming across as extremely arrogant. And the Agrathans look like they're playing Edelgard like a fiddle, getting her to do exactly what they want to do almost every step of the way. The only real victory Edelgard get is killing Cornelia, which imo is a massive mistake as it tips her hand way too much and the Agarthans clearly catch on. The realistic scenario to me seems to be that the moment Rhea is dead and the Agarthans have no explicit need for Edelgard, a nuke should hit Enbarr, Nemesis should be unleashed and half of Edelgard's high command should turn out to be infiltrators. The Agarthans have been doing this for over a thousand years without the church ever catching on. Any arrogance they have seems justified. Them ultimately losing in Crimson Flower, when they've manipulated the entire situation thus far just makes them look like blatant and inexplicable idiots rather than blind in arrogance and pride.

Except here's the thing. Edelgard isn't being too arrogant, whereas the Agarthans are. The more the Agarthans give out, the more El learns about them. And the more she learns, the more she understands what she'll need to do to beat them. The problem with what you're saying is that you're assuming that the Agarthans can abuse the hell out of their nukes, but they don't. They never used them before, and they don't use them now. The Agarthans want control, but just nuking El won't get them the power they need to rule over Fodlan. They still have need of El and use her to get power from her and take control of Fodlan. 

But unlike the Church, who never learned anything because they are outside, El and Hubert are inside, and thus do have a chance to learn. Hence why they were the ONLY ones that ever could be able to get any damage done to them. The war helped take out some of the Agarthans, and thanks to them nuking Arianrhod, now they exposed the Shambhala. And El has been using Jeritza to destroy Agarthan bases covertly, with there being an auxiliary mission given to us in Crimson Flower, thus preventing them from expanding their reach.

Also, unlike VW/SS, it's much more unlikely that they would use the javelins of light to nuke the Shambhala this time in a kamikaze, because in VW/SS, the entire case of nearly destroying the Shambhala with the Titanus and then actually destroying the Shambhala with the javelins of light is just for the case of trying to kill Rhea, their most hated enemy. Without her, they would basically try to preserve the base and win without it, which means that defeating them and forcing them to retreat would allow El to gain control over their base and learn more of their secrets. 

[Jotari]

14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Except here's the thing. Edelgard isn't being too arrogant, whereas the Agarthans are. The more the Agarthans give out, the more El learns about them. And the more she learns, the more she understands what she'll need to do to beat them. The problem with what you're saying is that you're assuming that the Agarthans can abuse the hell out of their nukes, but they don't. They never used them before, and they don't use them now. The Agarthans want control, but just nuking El won't get them the power they need to rule over Fodlan. They still have need of El and use her to get power from her and take control of Fodlan. 

But unlike the Church, who never learned anything because they are outside, El and Hubert are inside, and thus do have a chance to learn. Hence why they were the ONLY ones that ever could be able to get any damage done to them. The war helped take out some of the Agarthans, and thanks to them nuking Arianrhod, now they exposed the Shambhala. And El has been using Jeritza to destroy Agarthan bases covertly, with there being an auxiliary mission given to us in Crimson Flower, thus preventing them from expanding their reach.

Also, unlike VW/SS, it's much more unlikely that they would use the javelins of light to nuke the Shambhala this time in a kamikaze, because in VW/SS, the entire case of nearly destroying the Shambhala with the Titanus and then actually destroying the Shambhala with the javelins of light is just for the case of trying to kill Rhea, their most hated enemy. Without her, they would basically try to preserve the base and win without it, which means that defeating them and forcing them to retreat would allow El to gain control over their base and learn more of their secrets. 

This is precisely the thing. Once Rhea is gone I don't think the Agarthans have any need for Edelgard at all. The continent can be united in other ways (it seems they even planned to have Nemesis do that again), Rhea's the one thing that really threatens them. You're fine believing the Agarthans are a bunch of idiots, the game supports you after all given that the ending suggests Edelgard's victory, it just doesn't seem reasonable to me. I think the Agarthans are copped on enough to know Edelgard isn't going to be a puppet ruler when she's literally killing them-

39 minutes ago, Jotari said:

 (and yeah I'm sure Omegaaxis will pop up to point out to that one random throw away mission with Jeritza which if anything is just more blatant hand tipping).

-and will reasonable have prepared a counter for her. The javelins of light catch Edelgard by complete surprise and she has no counter to them. There's no argument to be had here. Just relative perspective on the competency of the villains. The way I see it the only way they could lose wouldn't be down to arrogance, but absolute mind numbing stupidity.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

42 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Despite their questionable plot choices in part 1 (which by and large are choices and not mistakes, few if any of them even result in negative repercussions), they do actually succeed in basically everything they set out to do. Their only real failure is Byleth hacking reality and returning from a black hole. And whatever Kronya was trying to do (with the added possibility that she fulfilled her role exactly as intended). It's clear that Edelgard is their long game, basically every action Edelgard takes (except killing Cornelia and in the other routes benefits the Agarthans (and yeah I'm sure Omegaaxis will op up to point out to that one random throw away mission with Jeritza which if anything is just more blatant hand tipping). Even Hubert's letter seems to be something he does entirely on his own motivation as Edelgard seems utterly incapable of conceiving her own defeat, see Azure Moon ending when Dimitri offers a hand of mercy and she responds by knifing him, only Edelgard seems to be anyone she can imagine losing to, as well as all the stuff you've already pointed out where she takes extremly risky maneuvers without even realizing the risk. Even the reason Edelgard is waging this war doesn't make any sense to me and seems to be a notion put in her head by the Agrathans because the church has absolutely zero to do with what happened to her, or well, anything in her life. Even if you buy her motivations for attacking the church as legitimate, where did she get these intentions from? Almost certainly the Agarthans. They've planned, manipulated and shaped every aspect of her life (and possibly even her birth given Patricia is in some way related to the Agarthans) and despite her hatred for them she has constantly furthered their agenda by taking out all of their enemies. Like I said, the way I see it, they've played her like a fiddle and she hasn't realized it at all.

But even then, if we take reality to be what Edelgard thinks it is, both sides are clearly and keenly aware that the other is about to betray them. And just giving the assets the Agarthans hold, namely nukes, nemesis, mech, demonic beasts and the ability to be basically anyone, she just doesn't seem to have the tools to combat them at all. All she has is Hubert. Even Byleth doesn't seem like they'd be useful for this kind of conflict, beyond just being the protagonist and thus guaranteed to win. Is there even a reference to Hubert tracking down Shambala in Crimson Flower? If there isn't, there should be, and even if there is, things are going to be much harder for Edelgard pulling off a full frontal assault than Claude, as the reason Claude did so well is that he took them by surprise which Edelgard can't do (and seems doesn't even intend to do, knifes cutting in the dark over swords on the battlefield and what not) as Thales knows she's coming for him. Edelgard doesn't seem like she's prepared them at all. The javelins of light came as a complete surprise to her and the Death Knight knew about them in other routes before hand, so this means she has either learned less in Crimson Flower or trust less, which doesn't bode well for her in either regard.

I have to agree with pretty much all of this. Even assuming the Agarthans are utterly defeated, they still win in a sense - their primary goal (killing Rhea) is achieved, as is their second-most goal (dissolving the Church of Seiros). Edelgard is something of a puppet to them; one of the themes of CF is Edelgard attempting to break those strings and reverse the relationship, but her success is partial at best.

The best thing they could have given Edelgard and Hubert is a "mole" among... well, the mole people. Having an informant could give them an edge against the Agarthans. It's possible that Hubert does have such a connection, but since it's never made explicit, this is idle speculation. And since Those Who Slither are presented as having a moral compass pointed straight towards Ailell, such a character would have to be different from any Slitherers we know.

Spoiler

Except here's the thing. Edelgard isn't being too arrogant, whereas the Agarthans are. The more the Agarthans give out, the more El learns about them. And the more she learns, the more she understands what she'll need to do to beat them. The problem with what you're saying is that you're assuming that the Agarthans can abuse the hell out of their nukes, but they don't. They never used them before, and they don't use them now. The Agarthans want control, but just nuking El won't get them the power they need to rule over Fodlan. They still have need of El and use her to get power from her and take control of Fodlan. 

@omegaxis1

I would agree, if not for one person - Arundel. As the "Regent" of the Empire, he's basically (to the best of my understanding) second-in-line to the throne. As soon as Rhea is defeated (and the Kingdom and Alliance absorbed into the Empire), Edelgard becomes the principal obstacle to his power. The only reason I see for him not killing her (covertly, of course), is fearing retribution from Byleth or Hubert. If he can get them all in one place, and nuke them, it's basically an absolute win for him.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Response to omega

[Flere210]

Whitout Edelgard there is no need to kill the Agarthan in the first place. They can replace someone every once in a while, but that'not enought for them to stand againist Rhea. They need an emperor that is willing to fight whit them and to mobilize the entire Adrestia, something that they could not do even after Arundhel became the leader in everything but name. 

It's not like they plotted for 1000 years. It's that they can only have that many soldiers in the underground and won't stand a chance againist the surface dwellers unless half of them fights on their side. Unless they summon Nemesis, wich would not benefit them in any way. 

They run the risk whit Solon and Kronya only after they already begun their plan to turn Edelgard into their pawn. 

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I have to agree with pretty much all of this. Even assuming the Agarthans are utterly defeated, they still win in a sense - their primary goal (killing Rhea) is achieved, as is their second-most goal (dissolving the Church of Seiros). Edelgard is something of a puppet to them; one of the themes of CF is Edelgard attempting to break those strings and reverse the relationship, but her success is partial at best.

The best thing they could have given Edelgard and Hubert is a "mole" among... well, the mole people. Having an informant could give them an edge against the Agarthans. It's possible that Hubert does have such a connection, but since it's never made explicit, this is idle speculation. And since Those Who Slither are presented as having a moral compass pointed straight towards Ailell, such a character would have to be different from any Slitherers we know.

A mole would be great, not only for giving Edelgard more of a reasonable fighting chance, but to give us a better perspective on the Agarthans.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Jotari said:

This is precisely the thing. Once Rhea is gone I don't think the Agarthans have any need for Edelgard at all. The continent can be united in other ways (it seems they even planned to have Nemesis do that again), Rhea's the one thing that really threatens them. You're fine believing the Agarthans are a bunch of idiots, the game supports you after all given that the ending suggests Edelgard's victory, it just doesn't seem reasonable to me. I think the Agarthans are copped on enough to know Edelgard isn't going to be a puppet ruler when she's literally killing them

Did you miss the part where I said that the Agarthans want control? Killing El right then and there, if they could, wouldn't actually give them control over Fodlan. If anything, it just starts another war of nobles scrambling to grab power. The Agarthans aren't all powerful. They can't launch a conquest all by themselves. But that's just it, in the other routes, the Agarthans had a much firmer hold over El and she was definitely on the losing end cause they have spread their influence much farther. But in CF, their influence is not only limited, but also restricted. Cornelia failed to get Faerghus, and was killed by El because she could have tried anything, and the Alliance is not under their control, but Count Bergliez following Claude handing it over to El, and Bergliez by this point is loyal to Edelgard. 

It's very realistic to understand why the Agarthans can't win in CF, because for all the tech they do have and the destructive force it presents, the Agarthans are overall cowards that cannot win without deception and trying to use puppets.

[Jotari]

14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Did you miss the part where I said that the Agarthans want control? Killing El right then and there, if they could, wouldn't actually give them control over Fodlan. If anything, it just starts another war of nobles scrambling to grab power.

And the Agarthans have been at this malarky for well over a thousand years. They can play the long game.

14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

 The Agarthans aren't all powerful. They can't launch a conquest all by themselves.

Well they do have Nemesis, so they probably could launch a conquest all by themselves if not for Byleth. But that's neither here nor there as I said, they've been fighting this war since the dawn of history, if there's one virtue they absolutely must have, it's patience.

14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

But that's just it, in the other routes, the Agarthans had a much firmer hold over El and she was definitely on the losing end cause they have spread their influence much farther. But in CF, their influence is not only limited, but also restricted. Cornelia failed to get Faerghus, and was killed by El because she could have tried anything, and the Alliance is not under their control, but Count Bergliez following Claude handing it over to El, and Bergliez by this point is loyal to Edelgard. 

And yet Edelgard is still achieving the one goal that actually matters to them. Destroying Rhea. If anything in the other routes we can extrapolate that has the upperhand over them by the end. As she successfully manages to keep Rhea from them for five years and has figured out their javelins of light before they even use one, and precisely where they're going to strike for the first time. How she knows those things I haven't the faintest, maybe the Agarthians straight up told her because she's seemingly more under their control in those routes. But that brings us back to the title of the thread. The game just tells us Edelgard's discovered things about her enemies, but the only thing we ever see is that they can make Arrows of Indra, and nukes, which she has zero defense against (and if there is a recharge time on them like people speculate in universe, then she better start beating the Agrathans quick, because it's only two months judging by the other routes and she ends the game with half that time expired).

14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

It's very realistic to understand why the Agarthans can't win in CF, because for all the tech they do have and the destructive force it presents, the Agarthans are overall cowards that cannot win without deception and trying to use puppets.

Which is precisely why I think they'd reasonably beat Edelgard.

 

 

Edited January 20, 2020 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

And the Agarthans have been at this malarky for well over a thousand years. They can play the long game.

Well they do have Nemesis, so they probably could launch a conquest all by themselves if not for Byleth. But that's neither here nor there as I said, they've been fighting this war since the dawn of history, if there's one virtue they absolutely must have, it's patience.

And yet Edelgard is still achieving the one goal that actually matters to them. Destroying Rhea. If anything in the other routes we can extrapolate that has the upperhand over them by the end. As she successfully manages to keep Rhea from them for five years and has figured out their javelins of light before they even use one, and precisely where they're going to strike for the first time. How she knows those things I haven't the faintest, maybe the Agarthians straight up told her because she's seemingly more under their control in those routes. But that brings us back to the title of the thread. The game just tells us Edelgard's discovered things about her enemies, but the only thing we ever see is that they can make Arrows of Indra, and nukes, which she has zero defense against (and if there is a recharge time on them like people speculate in universe, then she better start beating the Agrathans quick, because it's only two months judging by the other routes and she ends the game with half that time expired).

Which is precisely why I think they'd reasonably beat Edelgard.

Nemesis is literally a destroyer. It's debatable about whether the Agarthans even can control Nemesis even. Nemesis literally was just focused on killing Seiros, but odds are that at best, the Agarthans don't really control his actions. Keep in mind that Nemesis was destroying everything in his path, as any village that was attacked would be utterly wiped out. 

And? Yeah, Rhea is gone. The goal they had been waiting for is finally achieved. 

Also, Edelgard investigating them is literally why she and Hubert are able to do things that no one else could. 

In the other routes had El won, yeah, the Agarthans would win. Their influence is too strong. But in CF? The opposite. Edelgard's the one that spread her influence and destroyed any chances of the Agarthans spreading theirs. Killing Cornelia was to further weaken their influence. And her investigations helped her figure out that Aillel was destroyed by the javelins of light, something that literally no one else was able to figure out until Rhea told them about it, which is only cause she lived through the event.

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Nemesis is literally a destroyer. It's debatable about whether the Agarthans even can control Nemesis even. Nemesis literally was just focused on killing Seiros, but odds are that at best, the Agarthans don't really control his actions. Keep in mind that Nemesis was destroying everything in his path, as any village that was attacked would be utterly wiped out. 

There's an Agarthan fighting alongside him, which suggests they can in fact control him, or that his goals align with theirs. Nemesis doesn't come across as some mindless beast. It seems as if he's fully self aware and sapient.

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Also, Edelgard investigating them is literally why she and Hubert are able to do things that no one else could. 

In the other routes had El won, yeah, the Agarthans would win. Their influence is too strong. But in CF? The opposite. Edelgard's the one that spread her influence and destroyed any chances of the Agarthans spreading theirs. Killing Cornelia was to further weaken their influence. And her investigations helped her figure out that Aillel was destroyed by the javelins of light, something that literally no one else was able to figure out until Rhea told them about it, which is only cause she lived through the event.

And how does that help them?

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

There's an Agarthan fighting alongside him, which suggests they can in fact control him, or that his goals align with theirs. Nemesis doesn't come across as some mindless beast. It seems as if he's fully self aware and sapient.

Fighting alongside him does not mean control him. It just means that Nemesis won't be attacking them at the very least. But if Nemesis is a destroyer to the point that he might very well have demolish the entire continent, then not so good to have. Cause again, Nemesis is indicated to just destroying anything and everything that's in his way.

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

And how does that help them?

You might as well ask why spies exist to gather information. 

The saying, "knowledge is power" is a very real thing. Information about how the javelins work and what they can do, it can also lead to deductions. If they have these weapons of power, the question would be, why did they never use them before? Reasonable deductions and understanding is what leads them to make plans of attacks that allow for them to take advantage of the situation. 

For example, they can never nuke El, Byleth, and Hubert because they would be in Garreg Mach, the one place that they wold deduce is impossible to destroy, figuring out that there's possibly a barrier that kept the javelins from striking it. They know the javelins are magical in nature, hence why they were able to trace the Shambhala. 

That's the importance of research and investigations, which El and Hubert constantly do. 

[Jotari]

7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Fighting alongside him does not mean control him. It just means that Nemesis won't be attacking them at the very least. But if Nemesis is a destroyer to the point that he might very well have demolish the entire continent, then not so good to have. Cause again, Nemesis is indicated to just destroying anything and everything that's in his way.

I didn't say they could control him, I said that proves they can either control him or it means his intentions align with their own. Which of the two it is doesn't matter. As the important thing is they're on the same side.

7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

You might as well ask why spies exist to gather information. 

The saying, "knowledge is power" is a very real thing. Information about how the javelins work and what they can do, it can also lead to deductions. If they have these weapons of power, the question would be, why did they never use them before? Reasonable deductions and understanding is what leads them to make plans of attacks that allow for them to take advantage of the situation. 

For example, they can never nuke El, Byleth, and Hubert because they would be in Garreg Mach, the one place that they wold deduce is impossible to destroy, figuring out that there's possibly a barrier that kept the javelins from striking it. They know the javelins are magical in nature, hence why they were able to trace the Shambhala. 

That's the importance of research and investigations, which El and Hubert constantly do. 

Yes, but you actually have to do something with that information. We don't see any of Edelgard's plans. Like I've said already, it's back to the title thread where we're told she has all the information but not shown any practical plan. And even among the information we actually are privy to it's just lance of Indra (weapons close to as powerful as relics, Hubert seems unaware that the Agrathans are capable of actually making relics, which is weird as presumably they made Aymr). and Javelins of Light. Which are massive curve ball for her at the very end of the war.

Also the stuff you deduced there (the practical application of knowledge) the other characters figure out in Verdant Wind and Silver Snow no problem. Makes Hubert's research into Aillel seem like a bit of a waste of time.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yes, but you actually have to do something with that information. We don't see any of Edelgard's plans. Like I've said already, it's back to the title thread where we're told she has all the information but not shown any practical plan. And even among the information we actually are privy to it's just lance of Indra (weapons close to as powerful as relics, Hubert seems unaware that the Agrathans are capable of actually making relics, which is weird as presumably they made Aymr). and Javelins of Light. Which are massive curve ball for her at the very end of the war.

Also the stuff you deduced there (the practical application of knowledge) the other characters figure out in Verdant Wind and Silver Snow no problem. Makes Hubert's research into Aillel seem like a bit of a waste of time.

I mean, had we gotten the remaining chapters o CF, it'd definitely have come in handy. But sadly, that's not the case. Also, that's not what Hubert is noting from the Arrow of Indra. It's the fact that it's a weapon that is almost as strong as a Relic, but does not require a Crest or have a Crest Stone on it. 

Also, really? I find it hysterical that you think that their practical knowledge of having lived through it means anything. Did that practical knowledge help them trace the Shambhala? Nope. Seteth and Rhea tried to perform a massive investigation after the War of Heroes, and found absolutely nothing. El works with them, investigates them, and thus is the only one that can not only help others deal a blow, but is the only one that could destroy them in the end, as proven in CF. 

[Jotari]

20 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Also, really? I find it hysterical that you think that their practical knowledge of having lived through it means anything. Did that practical knowledge help them trace the Shambhala? Nope. Seteth and Rhea tried to perform a massive investigation after the War of Heroes, and found absolutely nothing. El works with them, investigates them, and thus is the only one that can not only help others deal a blow, but is the only one that could destroy them in the end, as proven in CF. 

Isn't there lines in Verdant Wind and Silver Snow about how Garreg Mach could provide protection and how there must be a cool down? Ah, I see Rhea tells them about the cool down and Garreg Mach. Still, that deduction is possible just from knowing they exist for the reasons you provided. And Claude does link them to Aillel without any (displayed) prior research into it. Do they actually come to the same deductions as what Rhea confirms as truth in Crimson Flower or is that your speculation on what they might do? I don't recall the Javelins even being mentioned after they're first brought up in that one chapter.

20 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I mean, had we gotten the remaining chapters o CF, it'd definitely have come in handy. But sadly, that's not the case. Also, that's not what Hubert is noting from the Arrow of Indra. It's the fact that it's a weapon that is almost as strong as a Relic, but does not require a Crest or have a Crest Stone on it. 

Oh absolutely. But, it doesn't, so we can only wish it did. Even so, a throw away line confirming that they have managed to trace the Javelin and know where Shambala is in Crimson Flower would have been easy to include and would have gone a long way.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Jotari said:

Isn't there lines in Verdant Wind and Silver Snow about how Garreg Mach could provide protection and how there must be a cool down? Ah, I see Rhea tells them about the cool down and Garreg Mach. Still, that deduction is possible just from knowing they exist for the reasons you provided. And Claude does link them to Aillel without any (displayed) prior research into it. Do they actually come to the same deductions as what Rhea confirms as truth in Crimson Flower? I don't recall the Javelins even being mentioned after they're first brought up in that one chapter.

Only Rhea knew about the barrier, but again, it's from practical knowledge. But none of them know why the javelins aren't used or abused, but simply that they never tried on Garreg Mach cause of the barrier. But Hubert and El don't have practical knowledge, but still learn from their investigations, not needing Nabateans to actually provide them with the knowledge needed. Also, Claude doesn't believe that Aillel happened cause of the goddess's wrath, cause he's an Almyran, and thus doesn't believe in the concept of the goddess actually being there to do something like that. 

And again, none of that changes how despite practical knowledge, no one ever actually traced the Shambhala from the javelins. Only Hubert did.

And yes, after the javelins destroyed Arianrhod, Edelgard asked Hubert if its the same as with their investigations into Aillel, where they believe that Aillel was caused by the Agarthans. And given how Jeritza and Byleth stormed the Shambhala, it's clear that Hubert traced the destruction of Arianrhod back to the Shambhala. 

This is all from human deductive reasoning and investigations. All done without getting help from Nabateans providing with their knowledge. 

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Only Rhea knew about the barrier, but again, it's from practical knowledge. But none of them know why the javelins aren't used or abused, but simply that they never tried on Garreg Mach cause of the barrier. But Hubert and El don't have practical knowledge, but still learn from their investigations, not needing Nabateans to actually provide them with the knowledge needed. Also, Claude doesn't believe that Aillel happened cause of the goddess's wrath, cause he's an Almyran, and thus doesn't believe in the concept of the goddess actually being there to do something like that. 

From what we see on screen, all they deduce is that it's related to Aillel. That's it.

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

And again, none of that changes how despite practical knowledge, no one ever actually traced the Shambhala from the javelins. Only Hubert did.

But not in Crimson Flower, that's my point.

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

And yes, after the javelins destroyed Arianrhod, Edelgard asked Hubert if its the same as with their investigations into Aillel, where they believe that Aillel was caused by the Agarthans. And given how Jeritza and Byleth stormed the Shambhala, it's clear that Hubert traced the destruction of Arianrhod back to the Shambhala. 

This is all from human deductive reasoning and investigations. All done without getting help from Nabateans providing with their knowledge. 

But this is all regulated to a post game character ending (and not even one in the base game at that!). I don't dispute that the game says Edelgard beat the Agrathans (aside from crazy headcanons), my stance is that I find it incredulous that she would be able to given the events of Crimson Flower.

 

[SpiceMan]

Just want to add that in CF Byleth isn't even able to use the Sword of the Creator anymore so they lack a lot more firepower than in other routes and aren't nearly as strong. The only reason they could was because they had the literal Crest of Flames inside them, but now since that disappeared for some inexplicable reason, and they didn't die the second the crest was removed for some inexplicable reason, they no longer can use the sword, In fact, no one can now because it's not that no one has the required crest, it's that the sword doesn't have its power source anymore which is why Edelgard and others are unable to use it. Without the crest stone that Byleth had it's just a old sharpened heavy piece of bone. This is also confirmed in the Jeritza s support image, where Byleth is instead using the Sword of Serios. Sure Byleth is still a very competent Merc but they aren't a godlike being anymore. Probably just on par with Jeritza in strength levels, maybe even weaker because Jeritza has a crest. 

Edited January 20, 2020 by SpiceMan

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

From what we see on screen, all they deduce is that it's related to Aillel. That's it.

But not in Crimson Flower, that's my point.

But this is all regulated to a post game character ending (and not even one in the base game at that!). I don't dispute that the game says Edelgard beat the Agrathans (aside from crazy headcanons), my stance is that I find it incredulous that she would be able to given the events of Crimson Flower.

Why? I mean, we know that Hubert does a lot of things behind her back. They clearly talk about preparing to face off against them. And yeah, the other routes show that Hubert traced the Shambhala back to them.

I get your issue is that CF ended so quickly, so it's overall premature. Yeah, many of us are unhappy about that. But frankly, what you're saying is sounding more nitpicky than anything, honestly. If IS decides to release the expansion it deserves, then we'll get it. But if you're just gonna stick to the idea that Agarthans should win or something, it sounds more like you want to deny the canon facts that is presented overall.

2 minutes ago, SpiceMan said:

Just want to add that in CF Byleth isn't even able to use the Sword of the Creator anymore so they lack a lot more firepower than in other routes and aren't nearly as strong. The only reason they could was because they had the literal Crest of Flames inside them, but now since that disappeared for some inexplicable reason, and they didn't die the second the crest was removed for some inexplicable reason, they no longer can use the sword, In fact, no one can now because it's not that no one has the required crest, it's that the sword doesn't have it power source anymore which is why Edelgard and others are unable to use it. Without the crest stone that Byleth had it's just a old sharpened heavy piece of bone. This is also confirmed in the Jeritza s support image, where Byleth is instead using the Sword or Serios. Sure Byleth is still a very competent Merc but they aren't a godlike being anymore. Probably just on par with Jeritza in strength levels, maybe even weaker because Jeritza has a crest. 

Either he still has the Crest of Flames, but the Sword of the Creator simply won't be usable due to lack of a Crest Stone (as Arundel stated that the Relic cannot work without its Crest Stone), or his Crest returned to being the Crest of Seiros, since remember that his father had the Major Crest of Seiros from a blood transfusion. It's unlikely for Byleth to not have a Crest as a result, since the blood wouldn't be diluted, especially when given that his mother was a body created from a Crest Stone. 

It's been noted many a times that Byleth's power is not simply from the Sword of the Creator. And the Sword of Seiros is equally as powerful as the Sword of the Creator, given how Rhea clashed against Nemesis with it and the weapon held its own perfectly well. The Sacred Weapons are all just as powerful as Relics, but they require a lot of skill to use them, which is why they require an A rank in the weapon ranks to be used, and Byleth can use it to show that he is very much skilled.

Jeritza even notes how even without the Sword of the Creator and the godlike powers, he's still got so much power within him.

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Why? I mean, we know that Hubert does a lot of things behind her back. They clearly talk about preparing to face off against them. And yeah, the other routes show that Hubert traced the Shambhala back to them.

I get your issue is that CF ended so quickly, so it's overall premature. Yeah, many of us are unhappy about that. But frankly, what you're saying is sounding more nitpicky than anything, honestly. If IS decides to release the expansion it deserves, then we'll get it. But if you're just gonna stick to the idea that Agarthans should win or something, it sounds more like you want to deny the canon facts that is presented overall.

My issue is the title of this thread.

[Axel987]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

Why? I mean, we know that Hubert does a lot of things behind her back. They clearly talk about preparing to face off against them. And yeah, the other routes show that Hubert traced the Shambhala back to them.

I get your issue is that CF ended so quickly, so it's overall premature. Yeah, many of us are unhappy about that. But frankly, what you're saying is sounding more nitpicky than anything, honestly. If IS decides to release the expansion it deserves, then we'll get it. But if you're just gonna stick to the idea that Agarthans should win or something, it sounds more like you want to deny the canon facts that is presented overall.

Either he still has the Crest of Flames, but the Sword of the Creator simply won't be usable due to lack of a Crest Stone (as Arundel stated that the Relic cannot work without its Crest Stone), or his Crest returned to being the Crest of Seiros, since remember that his father had the Major Crest of Seiros from a blood transfusion. It's unlikely for Byleth to not have a Crest as a result, since the blood wouldn't be diluted, especially when given that his mother was a body created from a Crest Stone. 

It's been noted many a times that Byleth's power is not simply from the Sword of the Creator. And the Sword of Seiros is equally as powerful as the Sword of the Creator, given how Rhea clashed against Nemesis with it and the weapon held its own perfectly well. The Sacred Weapons are all just as powerful as Relics, but they require a lot of skill to use them, which is why they require an A rank in the weapon ranks to be used, and Byleth can use it to show that he is very much skilled.

Jeritza even notes how even without the Sword of the Creator and the godlike powers, he's still got so much power within him.

The Crest of Seiros thing is actually an interesting point, since that's basically what happened to the Hresvelg line and etc...

But I suppose we don't actually know how crests work in terms of passing down do we(?), especially given all the fuckery surrounding Byleth being conceived, so I feel that latter idea doesn't have -too- much to base it on. Personally I think the idea of them keeping the Crest of Flames is more likely.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Axel987 said:

The Crest of Seiros thing is actually an interesting point, since that's basically what happened to the Hresvelg line and etc...

But I suppose we don't actually know how crests work in terms of passing down do we(?), especially given all the fuckery surrounding Byleth being conceived, so I feel that latter idea doesn't have -too- much to base it on. Personally I think the idea of them keeping the Crest of Flames is more likely.

The Crests became scarce because of the bloodline diluting the dragon blood as the ages passed. But Jeralt is not a case of dilution. He's like Wilhelm, being a blood transfusion, so his Crest is basically like a first gen type of Crest. 

[Axel987]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

The Crests became scarce because of the bloodline diluting the dragon blood as the ages passed. But Jeralt is not a case of dilution. He's like Wilhelm, being a blood transfusion, so his Crest is basically like a first gen type of Crest. 

Yeah I caught onto your point there, I more meant that in that case, shouldn't Byleth have it anyways? Does the Crest of Flames override any other crest? If so shouldn't it have overriden Edelgard's Crest of Seiros? I know it being implanted in their heart messed with their heart-beat but it still leads to too many questions imo.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Axel987 said:

Yeah I caught onto your point there, I more meant that in that case, shouldn't Byleth have it anyways? Does the Crest of Flames override any other crest? If so shouldn't it have overriden Edelgard's Crest of Seiros? I know it being implanted in their heart messed with their heart-beat but it still leads to too many questions imo.

I think it's a form of let's say, "natural" blood reconstruction. The Agarthans used the Seiros blood as a catalyst for the Crest of Flames for Edelgard and her siblings. Well, this is basically the case of Byleth's Seiros blood being the catalyst of the Crest of Flames. But rather than having two Crests, Byleth instead had the Seiros Crest turn into the Crest of Flames.

[Geenoble]

Man reading the recent things here just makes me really sad about how wasted Thales potential is. Solon and Kronya suck and TWSITD are really bad but Thales had some potential to be a good villain, he had all the same buildup as Manfroy and manipulates the playing field in the same way, but unlike Manfroy he falls flat in a lot of areas and ends up accomplishing nothing.

[Seazas]

On 1/14/2020 at 2:20 AM, Mikethemaster2018 said:

I haven't gotten to far in golden deer only on chapter 3 or 4 but yeah when I played CF they never really show what Claude could do he was called the Master Tectician and that it.

Didn't Claude show disdain toward that overhyped title? It's actually just like Claude to use a meaningless title to give him more credit than what he actually has. He had some plans like sneaking around for info or trying to get the Sword of the Creator but he's not as 200 IQ as we may think.

On another note regarding Thales... @Geenoble I'm glad, I'm sick of garbage evil dark cults that end up being the big deals. Those kinds of cult sorcerers being grunts toward the Empire for a change than the other way around is godlike.

Edited January 21, 2020 by Seazas