Talk about IT'S BYLETH, STOP MAKING THREADS in Smash here

[eclipse]

1 hour ago, ZeManaphy said:

Maybe in the they’ll use the 3 Lords as Alternate Costumes in future installments. Though I suppose that would create inconsistencies with the Sword of Creator.

They sort-of did via Byleth's alternate colors?  But I doubt the lords themselves will appear as anything but background characters - it would mean full kits and whatnot.

Though the three lords do need swords in their Lord class, so. . .

[Yexin]

7 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

At least XC2 fans got an expansion of the story, plenty of DLC, and Rex as a Mii Costume. You want to know what Nintendo has given to us XCX fans? Nada; zip, zilch. Be grateful you got that stuff. But yes, it must be absolutely terrible to see Nintendo give the cold shoulder to you guys like that (sarcasm). 

"be grafetul"

no dude, that's not how it works: i should expect to get, not be grateful for getting, something i paid my money for, plus i should expect it to be high quality as well

anyway this is not the place to discuss this, but yeah the "be grateful" argument is pure BS (akaneia ahahahah please end me), regardless

 

back on topic, i think i got over it: i knew this was bound to happen, so better sooner than later i guess, now the "New Fire Emblem Character" threat is over (watch me being proven completely wrong) and i can hope for completely new series to get a rep in smash

Edited January 17, 2020 by Yexin

[Roland]

In regards to the character, I think they look great. Byleth utlizing a sword, lance, axe, and bow all in their moveset is actually something I really like. Though the Final Smash could use a bit of work.

In regards to this "fiasco" we're in, same old shit. I'm willing to bet $50 that if FP5 wasn't Byleth and was someone else, there would still be people upset. Sword and Shield Pokemon? People would cry about "Pokemon Overrepresentation" and bring up contraversy surrouding Gen 8. Dante from Devil May Cry? People would whine about how much of a "generic swordsman" he is and the fact that he has little to no history with Nintendo. Ryu Hayabusa? People would say he's an "irrelevent sword fighter". KOS-MOS? "Literally who even is this bitch?"

A hard fact I've had to learn is that the Super Smash Bros community has been, and always will be, one of the most unsatisfiable video game communities on the face of the planet. People were mad about Hero for weilding a sword, people were mad about Terry because "nobody knows who he is", and now people are mad about Byleth for being a Fire Emblem character. It's one of the many reason why I don't take what a good majority of these people say seriously. 

You don't like Byleth? Fine. Just don't come crying to me about it, because I won't care. I haven't cared for years, and I'm not about to start now.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Roland

[Timlugia]

14 hours ago, thecrimsonflash said:

My opinion on this is that I like the inclusion personally, if it wasn't going to be young tiki, I'll take byleth, I am not a fan of how he was included though, his lack of divine pulse is a massive waste if you ask me, otherwise I'm to the moveset, I admit this feels like a backhanded response to people who gave the usual too many swords crap and in some ways I think byleth suffered for it.

The way Smash interprets time manipulation would probably making Divine Pulse another counter (e.g. Shulk).

 

I am also not a fan of popular "pokemon style mechanism".

In the case of PM, switching pm mid battle is a core mechanism that defines pokemon, that player switch out pokemon for type advantage. But in Fire Emblem there is no such design, and theme of Three Houses is actually three lords fight against each other to rule Fodlan, not helping each other. The popular concept that lord would just "jump off stage" or wrap out is both silly visually and problematic for stages

[ZeManaphy]

2 hours ago, eclipse said:

They sort-of did via Byleth's alternate colors?  But I doubt the lords themselves will appear as anything but background characters - it would mean full kits and whatnot.

Though the three lords do need swords in their Lord class, so. . .

I meant for future games. I guess the only concern would be the hatred of getting 3 new characters even if they were just alts. 

Anyway, I was thinking a bit more why Fire Emblem gets more representation than series like Legend of Zelda despite selling less, and I believe the answer lies in representation. In Legend of Zelda, the 3 main characters are Zelda, Link, Ganondorf- that's pretty much it. These 3 characters take the center stage in pretty much every game, and it doesn't help that each Link and Zelda is a reincarnation of each other Link and Zelda. So you can see where this is going... Link of Twilight Princess can substitute for Spirit Tracks, and not much difference. As for characters like Skull Kid and Midna, they've only appeared once, and only makes cameos in recent games. Heck, even Sheik has only appeared in Ocarina of Time.

Fire Emblem has the complete opposite problem. All the worlds are completely isolated and have unique premises. You could never use Chrom or Corrin to represent 3 Houses for example. If anything, its like Pokemon. Too many unique characters for the series own good. As for too many Swordfighters, that on Intelligent System, not Sakurai.

[Jotari]

Slightly disappointed Enlightned one is only appearing as the final smash. I kind of dig its design. Also a shame there seems to be no magic. Though we probably haven't seen everything yet (diverse characters like this are the reason Custom Specials need to come back with a vengeance).

Also where's the option to "make another thread" in the poll?

Edited January 17, 2020 by Jotari

[Flere210]

2 hours ago, ZeManaphy said:

I meant for future games. I guess the only concern would be the hatred of getting 3 new characters even if they were just alts. 

Anyway, I was thinking a bit more why Fire Emblem gets more representation than series like Legend of Zelda despite selling less, and I believe the answer lies in representation. In Legend of Zelda, the 3 main characters are Zelda, Link, Ganondorf- that's pretty much it. These 3 characters take the center stage in pretty much every game, and it doesn't help that each Link and Zelda is a reincarnation of each other Link and Zelda. So you can see where this is going... Link of Twilight Princess can substitute for Spirit Tracks, and not much difference. As for characters like Skull Kid and Midna, they've only appeared once, and only makes cameos in recent games. Heck, even Sheik has only appeared in Ocarina of Time.

Fire Emblem has the complete opposite problem. All the worlds are completely isolated and have unique premises. You could never use Chrom or Corrin to represent 3 Houses for example. If anything, its like Pokemon. Too many unique characters for the series own good. As for too many Swordfighters, that on Intelligent System, not Sakurai.

Yes, but there are still useable characters from famous franchises. And i am not reffering to that guy that was only created to fill the roster of Mario spinoffs.

And i don't think every game have to be represented. Smash 4 did not have any charcter from gen 5 or gen 6 and only few pokemon fans were bothered by it.  Fire emblem is getting a better treatment than the franchise that is bigger than Star Wars.

[Fabulously Olivier]

5 hours ago, eclipse said:

They sort-of did via Byleth's alternate colors?  But I doubt the lords themselves will appear as anything but background characters - it would mean full kits and whatnot.

Though the three lords do need swords in their Lord class, so. . .

They really don't need unique movesets given Three Houses' flexible class system.

 

But it helps that all three of them are proficient in swords.

[Gregster101]

3 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Yes, but there are still useable characters from famous franchises. And i am not reffering to that guy that was only created to fill the roster of Mario spinoffs.

And i don't think every game have to be represented. Smash 4 did not have any charcter from gen 5 or gen 6 and only few pokemon fans were bothered by it.  Fire emblem is getting a better treatment than the franchise that is bigger than Star Wars.

Smash 4 had Greninja as a Gen 6 rep though. You're probably thinking of Gen 3

[Fabulously Olivier]

3 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Yes, but there are still useable characters from famous franchises. And i am not reffering to that guy that was only created to fill the roster of Mario spinoffs.

And i don't think every game have to be represented. Smash 4 did not have any charcter from gen 5 or gen 6 and only few pokemon fans were bothered by it.  Fire emblem is getting a better treatment than the franchise that is bigger than Star Wars.

Pokemon released a bad game that divided the world's most forgiving fanbase.

 

Fire Emblem released a good game that united one of gaming's most divided fanbases.

 

Which one of these two new games deserves a rep more?

[Flere210]

8 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

Smash 4 had Greninja as a Gen 6 rep though. You're probably thinking of Gen 

No i forgot about greninja Lol. Still gen 5 got nothing while every non remake FE had a character from Radiant Dawn onward. For situation like this  my nickname was some variation of "Iamanidiot" on every forum where such a name won't get banned.

Edith: @Etheus imo gen 5 was the best pokemon game, and we could have the Shang Tsung of smash. I am not salty anymore, but i kinda was back then.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Flere210

[Fabulously Olivier]

15 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

No i forgot about greninja Lol. Still gen 5 got nothing while every non remake FE had a character from Radiant Dawn onward. For situation like this  my nickname was some variation of "Iamanidiot" on every forum where such a name won't get banned.

Edith: @Etheus imo gen 5 was the best pokemon game, and we could have the Shang Tsung of smash. I am not salty anymore, but i kinda was back then.

While I agree that Pokemon could use some more reps (I personally want a gen 3 rep, as gen 3 is my baby), you still haven't adequately refuted my claim that Three Houses, specifically, is culturally significant enough to deserve a rep. 

 

And Hell, if Smash's roster is ever rebooted and trimmed down in a future entry, Byleth is one of those that deserves to stay. Not Corrin for damn sure. Not some of the Pokemon (caugh, Pichu and Jigglypuff). 

[Flere210]

Just now, Etheus said:

While I agree that Pokemon could use some more reps (I personally want a gen 3 rep, as gen 3 is my baby), you still haven't adequately refuted my claim that Three Houses, specifically, is culturally significant enough to deserve a rep. 

 

And Hell, if Smash's roster is ever rebooted and trimmed down in a future entry, Byleth is one of those that deserves to stay. Not Corrin for damn sure. Not some of the Pokemon (caugh, Pichu and Jigglypuff). 

My problem is not whit three houses, is whit Byleth, i have no interest in refusing that Claim. But i also think is nowhere close to any of the other games represented by pack 1 and the th character should have been in a first party pack later.

[vanguard333]

7 hours ago, Yexin said:

"be grafetul"

no dude, that's not how it works: i should expect to get, not be grateful for getting, something i paid my money for, plus i should expect it to be high quality as well

anyway this is not the place to discuss this, but yeah the "be grateful" argument is pure BS (akaneia ahahahah please end me), regardless

That’s not even remotely what I meant. If you read it in context, you’ll see that I didn’t mean, “Don’t complain”; I simply meant that you should at least be considerate of the fact that Nintendo has given stuff to XC2 fans as consolation, all while XCX fans have gotten the cold shoulder by comparison.

My reply was basically meant as this:

“Oh; XC2 fans have been only been given an expansion, DLC, and a Mii Costume, all while XCX fans have been given diddly-squat? Yeah; that’s so terrible for XC2 fans (lighthearted sarcasm).”

It was intended in both for humour and making a point.

Edited January 17, 2020 by vanguard333

[Fabulously Olivier]

21 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

That’s not even remotely what I meant. If you read it in context, you’ll see that I didn’t mean, “Don’t complain”; I simply meant that you should at least be considerate of the fact that Nintendo has given stuff to XC2 fans as consolation, all while XCX fans have gotten the cold shoulder by comparison.

My reply was basically meant as this:

“Oh; XC2 fans have been only been given an expansion, DLC, and a Mii Costume, all while XCX fans have been given diddly-squat? Yeah; that’s so terrible for XC2 fans (lighthearted sarcasm).”

It was intended in both for humour and making a point.

I guess I have something of a counter-argument. Is it not weird to think of Xenoblade 1, 2, and X as such separate things when we're dealing with a non-Xenoblade crossover.

 

Like, Shulk in Smash is not a XC1 rep. He's a Xenoblade rep. That's 1, 2, and X. Same if Rex or Elma are added.

 

Now, if we were talking about a dedicated Xenoblade crossover, that's different. If no one from X made it into a Xenoblade Warriors, that is a noteworthy snubbing of XCX fans.

 

Just as it was a notable snubbing of Tellius and Jugdral fans in FEW, for example, when no one from those games made it into a dedicated Fire Emblem crossover.

[vanguard333]

8 minutes ago, Etheus said:

I guess I have something of a counter-argument. Is it not weird to think of Xenoblade 1, 2, and X as such separate things when we're dealing with a non-Xenoblade crossover.

Like, Shulk in Smash is not a XC1 rep. He's a Xenoblade rep. That's 1, 2, and X. Same if Rex or Elma are added.

Now, if we were talking about a dedicated Xenoblade crossover, that's different. If no one from X made it into a Xenoblade Warriors, that is a noteworthy snubbing of XCX fans.

Just as it was a notable snubbing of Tellius and Jugdral fans in FEW, for example, when no one from those games made it into a dedicated Fire Emblem crossover.

I wouldn’t really consider that a counterargument to the argument that XC2 has received more than XCX has; I kept trying to specify that it was by comparison, and both that comparison and the original criticism I was responding to (lack of XC2 representation) assumes considering 1, 2 and X as separate things. If it is a counterargument, it’s a counterargument to both. 

But it is an interesting point on its own. It’s similar to the idea that Megaman isn’t just representing the classic Megaman series, but all of them; hence all of them appearing in the final smash. I’d say that idea holds so long as Megaman and Shulk, respectively, are the sole representatives. If someone from the Battle Network games appeared in Smash, that would shatter the idea for Megaman. Likewise, someone from 2 or X would shatter the illusion for Xenoblade, and one could argue that this idea has already been shattered by the Rex Mii Costume being outright stated to be consolation for Rex being too late to be in Ultimate. 

when it comes to a dedicated in-series crossover, you and I are in absolute agreement. I won’t forget Ike not being in FE Warriors; he’s perfect for a Warriors game!

6 hours ago, Timlugia said:

In the case of PM, switching pm mid battle is a core mechanism that defines pokemon, that player switch out pokemon for type advantage. But in Fire Emblem there is no such design, and theme of Three Houses is actually three lords fight against each other to rule Fodlan, not helping each other. The popular concept that lord would just "jump off stage" or wrap out is both silly visually and problematic for stages

Two things:

1: Rescue + Warp. One could say, “But Byleth can’t learn either of those”, to which I would say, “Robin can’t use Nosferatu as a Tactician.” 

2. That’s a part of Three Houses; another major part of Three Houses is Byleth being professor and guiding and instructing their students, and, during Part 1, they aren’t at war with each other. Byleth being a Three Houses Trainer can easily be contextualized in such a way that makes sense.

For one example:

Rhea: ”Congratulations students! We have received an invitation to Smash Bros.! But only one.”

The House Leaders fight for the ticket; it’s a draw. 

Edelgard: “Why not the professor?”

Rhea: “Apparently, they’ve been receiving complaints about the number of swordfighters that our worlds have been sending them.”

Seteth: “Hm... Perhaps they may be better together as a team, rather than apart. I know for a fact that one of their own already cycles between three fighters. If the professor were to guide them...”

Rhea: “An excellent idea, Seteth.”

I know; the dialogue is not very well written, but I only spent a few seconds coming up with it. 

[Fabulously Olivier]

12 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I wouldn’t really consider that a counterargument to the argument that XC2 has received more than XCX has; I kept trying to specify that it was by comparison, and both that comparison and the original criticism I was responding to (lack of XC2 representation) assumes considering 1, 2 and X as separate things. If it is a counterargument, it’s a counterargument to both. 

But it is an interesting point on its own. It’s similar to the idea that Megaman isn’t just representing the classic Megaman series, but all of them; hence all of them appearing in the final smash. I’d say that idea holds so long as Megaman and Shulk, respectively, are the sole representatives. If someone from the Battle Network games appeared in Smash, that would shatter the idea for Megaman. Likewise, someone from 2 or X would shatter the illusion for Xenoblade, and one could argue that this idea has already been shattered by the Rex Mii Costume being outright stated to be consolation for Rex being too late to be in Ultimate. 

when it comes to a dedicated in-series crossover, you and I are in absolute agreement. I won’t forget Ike not being in FE Warriors; he’s perfect for a Warriors game!

Two things:

1: Rescue + Warp. One could say, “But Byleth can’t learn either of those”, to which I would say, “Robin can’t use Nosferatu as a Tactician.” 

2. That’s a part of Three Houses; another major part of Three Houses is Byleth being professor and guiding and instructing their students, and, during Part 1, they aren’t at war with each other. Byleth being a Three Houses Trainer can easily be contextualized in such a way that makes sense.

For one example:

Rhea: ”Congratulations students! We have received an invitation to Smash Bros.! But only one.”

The House Leaders fight for the ticket; it’s a draw. 

Edelgard: “Why not the professor?”

Rhea: “Apparently, they’ve been receiving complaints about the number of swordfighters that our worlds have been sending them.”

Seteth: “Hm... Perhaps they may be better together as a team, rather than apart. I know for a fact that one of their own already cycles between three fighters. If the professor were to guide them...”

Rhea: “An excellent idea, Seteth.”

I know; the dialogue is not very well written, but I only spent a few seconds coming up with it. 

Even if Rex were added, would that constitute a snubbing of X fans?

 

Or, if I were to use FE as an example, have Gaiden fans been snubbed because we don't have Alm or Celica? Or have Jugdral fans been snubbed because we don't have Sigurd or Leif?

 

Should every game in a franchise have a dedicated representative, or is every character a representative of their entire franchise? I would argue that the latter is true, but with that said, those representatives should be chosen carefully, such that they actually do. 

 

And that's where Fire Emblem in Smash kinda stumbles. It has representatives that were chosen very well (Marth, Ike, Robin, and, yes, Byleth), but it also has ones that were chosen poorly (Roy, even if only in retrospect, and Corrin, along with the general treatment of Marth clones as separate characters, rather than costumes). 

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, Etheus said:

Even if Rex were added, would that constitute a snubbing of X fans?

Or, if I were to use FE as an example, have Gaiden fans been snubbed because we don't have Alm or Celica? Or have Jugdral fans been snubbed because we don't have Sigurd or Leif?

I wouldn’t say it outright constitutes a snub. But it would shatter the idea of Shulk representing all of Xenoblade, and it would definitely be XC2 getting more than XCX. My original argument (which again was only semi-serious) was that XC2 fans who feel that XC2 has been snubbed should concede that, if XC2 has indeed been snubbed, then XCX has it even worse. The premise being false does not make the argument invalid. 

 

1 hour ago, Etheus said:

Should every game in a franchise have a dedicated representative, or is every character a representative of their entire franchise? I would argue that the latter is true, but with that said, those representatives should be chosen carefully, such that they actually do. 

And that's where Fire Emblem in Smash kinda stumbles. It has representatives that were chosen very well (Marth, Ike, Robin, and, yes, Byleth), but it also has ones that were chosen poorly (Roy, even if only in retrospect, and Corrin, along with the general treatment of Marth clones as separate characters, rather than costumes). 

And I would argue that that’s a false dichotomy. With Smash being designed the way it is, it really more comes down to context, and what’s true about what adequately represents one series may not be true for another series. But two things I would consider for each series in terms of representation are the following: what do they bring to the table, and what do they represent within their series. 

As ZeManaphy brought up earlier, The Legend of Zelda, for example, and Fire Emblem are very different series. The Legend of Zelda is about Link’s adventures, and almost every game, in some form, is about Link, Zelda and Ganon. Thus, they represent The Legend of Zelda. One could go further and say that the current specific forms of Link and Zelda further reflect how the series has evolved: Shiek represents Ocarina of Time: a major point for the series. Zelda represents the Downfall Timeline (Original game, A Link to the Past, etc.), Toon Link represents the Adult Timeline and the “cartoony” Zelda games in general, Young Link represents the Child Timeline (Majora’s Mask, Twilight Princess), and Link represents Breath of the Wild: a game that in many ways has evolved the Zelda series. 

Similarly, for Mario, one really just needs Mario, Peach and Bowser, but it can be taken further: Rosalina represents the Galaxy games, Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings represent 2D Mario, Mario, thanks to FLUDD and Cappy, represents 3D Mario, and Luigi; well, one can guess. 

With Fire Emblem, it is different; the games are almost self-contained. I agree with you that Fire Emblem’s roster has been a bit of a stumble (four Marths?!), but probably for different reasons:

If we do similar division for what each FE character represents, Marth can be considered as representing Classic Fire Emblem, which would overlap with Alm, Celica, Sigurd, Seliph and Roy. Roy still being in Smash is a stumble, as he has little to offer on his own and he too represents Classic Fire Emblem. 

Similarly, Ike can represent the 1st Worldwide Era (pre-awakening) of Fire Emblem. But, with Lyn as an assist trophy, it might be more accurate to say Ike represents the Tellius games. 

At the Awakening era, we see the second stumble: 3 representatives. Of the three, only Robin brings something new to the table. Lucina was fine since she’s an echo, but Chrom was unnecessary, as his era has enough representation.

Corrin’s reasons for being added are certainly questionable, but as they represent Fates and bring dragon-transformation to the table, I’d say that their inclusion is fine; not great (I would’ve preferred Azura), but fine.

Now, we have a Three Houses representative, which is great. But Byleth doesn’t bring much to the table that’s actually theirs. Three of the four weapons aren’t their’s, but the House Leaders’. 

My criticism of the idea of Rex being included would be that Shulk in his own represents the series, but once Rex is added, it becomes clear that Shulk represents XC1 and Rex represents XC2, leaving XCX out in the cold.

Incidentally, if Elma were added but not Rex, one could argue that it’s still fair by saying Shulk represents main-series Xenoblade while Elma represents XCX. 

Does that make sense?

Edited January 17, 2020 by vanguard333

[Flere210]

But them, kirby has definitly a generation shift when Bandana Dee start appearing, but he is not in, neither any of those newcomers. Pokemon does not have a rep per generation. Botw is not properly represented for being such a new direction in the Zelda franchise, even if just with a proper botw link that uses the statis and champion powers. And so on.

It's either that Fire emblem is treater more favourably, or everything else is treated in a worse way than they deserve.

[Jingle Jangle]

Geez my head hurts. On one side there is a group of people that take Byleth's entry into Smash way too personally that Sakurai "wronged" them somehow. Creating all kinds of double standards for Byleth's and their own characters. However on the other side, there is a group acting smug at people that are mixed/dislike Byleth's inclusions in the game. As if they feel superior for making fun of people. No matter where I am these people are everywhere.

[Timlugia]

3 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

It's either that Fire emblem is treater more favourably, or everything else is treated in a worse way than they deserve.

I think it's easier if people just accept that Fire Emblem is Sakurai's favorite video game

I remotely remember in one of interviews he even claimed Fire Emblem was one of reasons he want to work for Nintendo, shortly after FE1 was released.

And the sole reason the Fire Emblem is alive and well today was because Sakurai brought FE to the west through Smash,  should show people how much influence he has.

[Fabulously Olivier]

5 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

But them, kirby has definitly a generation shift when Bandana Dee start appearing, but he is not in, neither any of those newcomers. Pokemon does not have a rep per generation. Botw is not properly represented for being such a new direction in the Zelda franchise, even if just with a proper botw link that uses the statis and champion powers. And so on.

It's either that Fire emblem is treater more favourably, or everything else is treated in a worse way than they deserve.

Why would they change Link's moveset to reflect BotW (I mean, they kind of did with the bomb, but I digress).

 

It's a classic case of "if it aint broke."

 

They also didn't change Mario's moveset to reflect Odyssey - quite possibly the best 3d collect-a-thon ever. Because they didn't need to.

[Jotari]

46 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Incidentally, if Elma were added but not Rex, one could argue that it’s still fair by saying Shulk represents main-series Xenoblade while Elma represents XCX. 

Couldn't one also use this logic to say Shulk and Rex represent main series Xenoblade while X isn't deserving of representation as its a spin off, just like there's no expectation to put a Tokyo Mirage Session character in Smash.

[Flere210]

1 minute ago, Timlugia said:

I think it's easier if people just accept that Fire Emblem is Sakurai's favorite video game

I remotely remember in one of interviews he even claimed Fire Emblem was one of reasons he want to work for Nintendo, shortly after FE1 was released.

 

I am fine whit that as long as it's aknowledged and people don't act like Fire Emblem does not receive a preferential treatment. 

1 minute ago, Etheus said:

Why would they change Link's moveset to reflect BotW (I mean, they kind of did with the bomb, but I digress).

 

It's a classic case of "if it aint broke."

Because we have 3 Links whit very similar movesets. If link was reworked, they could change a bit Young Link so he play like the Link we had since 64. As they are, i feel 3 links are reduntant.

Doing the same whit mario and Dr. Mario is an option, but i feel that you can't really do justice to Cappy in smash, because possessing other players is too hax.

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Why would they change Link's moveset to reflect BotW (I mean, they kind of did with the bomb, but I digress).

 

It's a classic case of "if it aint broke."

 

They also didn't change Mario's moveset to reflect Odyssey - quite possibly the best 3d collect-a-thon ever. Because they didn't need to.

And once again, this is precisely why alternate specials need to be a thing again if it ain't broke, don't fix it, but if it is old, it could do with an upgrade. The best of both worlds is possible.