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Where does Byleth place on the canon ranking tier list of Lords?


Jotari
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11 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Still, it's a point of data regarding his skill. And also Lucina has plenty of access to magic, with 4 of her 5 mothers (6 if you count maiden).

Well that depends on if we count reclassing (and especially reclassing with alternate possibly parents) as canon representation of character strength. I figure it would be better to go Default Final Class + Iconic Weapon. If we take reclassing into account then Byleth and Robin can do basically everything (and Lucina too if Robin happens to be her mother).

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I kind of agree with Alastor, it's baffling how divine pulse get stopped because "Muh faaaaate" and "Some death cannot just be stopped". I swear, it's like hearing "No one can just deflect the Emerald Splash".
This is pure bullshit, the only reason it doesn't work is because the plot says so.

I'd guess Byleth must be high on the podium, not green, pretty famed, legit skilled/talented in multiple skills (except magic, what's up with that bad spelllist ?), the greatest weapon since Sword of Seals and Ragnell, time power, he also may or may not be immortal.

17 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I'd guess that even though it is the same blade as her daddy's that maybe timey-wimey dimensional differences stops Lucina's partly-unsealed Falchion from being fully unsealed with Chrom-world Gemstones?

Good point, I always wondered about that.

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Aren't the crusaders' descendants from FE4/5 (with major holy blood and the respective holy weapon) considered one-man-armies? I think that would definitely place Sigurd and Seliph quite highly. (They also get access to mounts, and while Byleth can also get a mount, if we're going by default final class and respective weapon, I think Sigurd and Seliph have quite the edge over Byleth, because horse emblem.)

Jokes aside, I think Byleth would rank fairly high considering their time-rewind power and ability to wield the strongest of the heroes' relics. Although.... I have to wonder, would Radiant Dawn endgame Ike have divine-effectiveness against Byleth, similarly to how Marth with Falchion has dragon-effectiveness against Corrin? I don't think we're pitting anyone against each other in a fight, but it was something that came to mind. (I haven't played Radiant Dawn, but I know Ike kills a goddess at the end of the game).

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6 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Sigurd with Tyrfing, and Seliph possibly without Tyrfing but definitely with it, immediately spring to mind.

Hmm are we using FE4's staff accuracy calculation or FE10's. Tyrfing gives +20 res. Seliph at max level on average has 15.5 so in total he has 35.5 res. Micaiah has 40 mag at max level so she puts him to sleep if we use FE4's system. Though we can give Seliph a barrier ring to put him on par or above Micaiah's mag to make him immune completely. 

Sigurd has 4 res at max level on average and 24 res with Tyrfing. That is no where near enough res to not get sleeped even with barrier ring which puts him at 29 res. 

Let's use RD's system of calculating sleep. 

{30 + [(Magic – enemy’s Resistance) x 5] + Skill} – (Distance between units x 2)

Assuming the best scenario for Sigurd, it returns 118 - Distance X 2. So Micaiah can easily put him to sleep if he is within 9 spaces of her. 

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2 hours ago, Icelerate said:

How many lords have the res to not get put to sleep by Micaiah? 

It's kind of weird to use FE10's stats, since stats are inflated to reflect the length of the game(And the scale of the conflict within it). Even normal humans like Boyd can easily hit 40 strength, something that would only be possible with a Holy Weapon in GotHW.

FE10 having most units hit a cap of 35-40 quite easily, while Genealogy units rarely break 27 in anything, despite several of them being superhuman, even without Holy Weapons, should make it pretty obvious that you can't just compare raw stats like that.

Really you should be using relative stat caps. Because otherwise we could just say that FE Awakening of Fates characters with DLC are just the strongest characters in the series, everyone hitting 50+ in all stats with enough time.

But if you put Micaiah in GotHW, where the absolute highest magic cap in the game is 30, she'd have trouble hitting even Sigurd from any range where Sigurd wouldn't launch her into orbit with Tyrfing.

Edited by Slumber
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5 hours ago, indigoasis said:

Although.... I have to wonder, would Radiant Dawn endgame Ike have divine-effectiveness against Byleth, similarly to how Marth with Falchion has dragon-effectiveness against Corrin? I don't think we're pitting anyone against each other in a fight, but it was something that came to mind. (I haven't played Radiant Dawn, but I know Ike kills a goddess at the end of the game).

I'd say this depends. Ashera and Yune are defined by their personifications of Order and Chaos. You could say Ike doesn't have as much anti-divinity power but rather anti-Order, since Yune's power of Chaos is what fuels him. So one could say that unless Byleth is also likewise filled with much Order without enough Chaos to balance it, then Yune-charged!Ike shouldn't be able to deal "effective" damage. Of course, whether it's Chaos power or otherwise, one can not ignore the raw power itself. So... effective or not, it might still be able to match, maybe.

Edited by Acacia Sgt
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19 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I'd say this depends. Ashera and Yune are defined by their personifications of Order and Chaos. You could say Ike doesn't have as much anti-divinity power but rather anti-Order, since Yune's power of Chaos is what fuels him. So one could say that unless Byleth is also likewise filled with much Order without enough Chaos to balance it, then Yune-charged!Ike shouldn't be able to deal "effective" damage. Of course, whether it's Chaos power or otherwise, one can not ignore the raw power itself. So... effective or not, it might still be able to match, maybe.

Remember that both the Black Knight's armor and Ragnell were blessed by the same goddess and yet Ragnell can still pierce the armor. I don't think there's much basis to say that Yune's power is only anti-order.

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Just now, Alastor15243 said:

Remember that both the Black Knight's armor and Ragnell were blessed by the same goddess and yet Ragnell can still pierce the armor. I don't think there's much basis to say that Yune's power is only anti-order.

Are we fully sure the armor was blessed by Ashera? Maybe it's just me; but such an armor wouldn't be black colored, in contrast to the Disciples of Order's gold ones.

Yune does say in 4-E-3 she blessed armor in the previous war against Ashera. I'd always thought that's where the Black Knight and Ashnard's blessed armors came from.

Not to mention, unless there were other people outside Altina, Soan, and Deghinsea, who none wear armor, who were also blessed, then Ashera never blessed any otherwise.

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5 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Are we fully sure the armor was blessed by Ashera? Maybe it's just me; but such an armor wouldn't be black colored, in contrast to the Disciples of Order's gold ones.

Yune does say in 4-E-3 she blessed armor in the previous war against Ashera. I'd always thought that's where the Black Knight and Ashnard's blessed armors came from.

Not to mention, unless there were other people outside Altina, Soan, and Deghinsea, who none wear armor, who were also blessed, then Ashera never blessed any otherwise.

That is actually a fair point. Can Ragnell damage anyone with the Mantle skill without Yune's blessing? That just occurred to me, and I always blessed Ragnell so I don't think I've ever checked.

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Ike is still number 1; it will be a long time before Fire Emblem comes up with a protagonist anywhere near as badass as Ike. 

Byleth does have a lot going for him though; noted sword skills, a legendary weapon, and blessing from a powerful being. The thing is; that's true for a lot of lords. The issue is that we're rarely given a good enough frame of reference to judge Byleth's skills in combat. To explain what I mean, I'm going to compare to Ike:

With Ike, we knew right away that he was nothing compared to his father, but his father is one of the greatest fighters in Tellius (and used to be the best before crippling himself), so even as a trainee, Ike is still leagues above most fighters. Throughout Path of Radiance, we see his growth as he learns from various fighters, and we see him going from unable to land a hit on the Black Knight, to being able to land blows on the Black Knight, to ultimately being able to defeat the Black Knight: the warrior that killed his father in battle. His other opponents that he faces reinforce this: being high-ranking warriors in a Social-Darwinist kingdom, and he hardly breaks a sweat. Characters within the army talk about Ike as this OP fighter; reassuring others by saying stuff like, "So you lost to Ike; Ike beats everyone", and we're shown that Ike very much earned people talking about him like this. 

Radiant Dawn took this even further by revealing that he still has further to go: the Black Knight let Ike win because Ike wasn't yet at the level Greil was in his prime. We see the Black Knight, as Zelgius, wipe the floor with the heir to the throne of Gallia, and then, in the endgame, Ike beats Zelgius, with Zelgius saying that Ike fought with the strength that Greil had in his prime. Finally, while channeling Yune's power, Ike defeats Ashera: the very being regarding as a deity by most in Tellius. 

What makes Ike stand above every other FE lord in terms of how strong and overall badass he is, isn't a list of his feats or abilities; but the fact that both Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn made sure to set the bars for comparison, and Ike clears those bars. In a world of dragon riders, mages, ultimate swordsman in enchanted armour, tyrannical Darwinistic Kings who started out on the battlefield, goddesses and shapeshifters, Ike is just a guy with a sword, and he delivers

(I will admit, I do love gushing about Ike; he's my favourite video game protagonist of all time. But I hope this shows what I'm talking about with plenty of objectivity)

 

With Byleth, we start off with a similar setup: child of a mercenary leader who is also the most powerful warrior on the continent. Here's the thing though; we have no idea how Byleth compares to their dad, and we never do learn that. We also never see how the opponents that Byleth faces compare to their dad, as Jeralt never fights any of them, none of them are ever in a position where they have to run away or risk fighting him, and ultimately, Jeralt is killed by being stabbed in the back. There's no frame of reference for whether or not Byleth comes anywhere close to reaching Fodlan's established skill ceiling. 

Similarly, we have little frame of reference when it comes to Byleth vs their opponents. The whole time, they're leading the team, but the only time we can safely assume Byleth actually fights and defeats is Kronya: the girl that stabbed Jeralt in the back. We have no frame of reference for how skilled she is; if anything, the game presents her as a smug snake that has to rely on trickery to win. So, Byleth wiping the floor with her... really isn't much. The game talks a lot about one day comparing Byleth to noted killing-machine Death Knight, but it never happens in-story as far as I know. 

There's also no frame of reference for how Byleth compares to supporting characters. Against the students and the professors, Byleth wins, but, as Hanneman points out, that's due to Byleth being the only one with battlefield experience. When are Byleth's skills ever compared to, say, the Knights of Seiros? There's very little talk of where Byleth sits in Fodlan's hierarchy of fighters. And if we can't figure out where they fit in Fodlan in terms of skill and strength, how can we do so when comparing them to the other lords?

Edited by vanguard333
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Ike is certainly strong; but for the last of his feats he's hardly "just a guy with a sword". More so when you consider Ashera. He was powered up by Yune (Vanguard promotion), had his Ragnell blessed; and for the final blow against Ashera, Yune had to give him even more power.

In raw strength he could certainly be the highest among the lords... but overall power? I don't think so.

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9 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Ike is certainly strong; but for the last of his feats he's hardly "just a guy with a sword". More so when you consider Ashera. He was powered up by Yune (Vanguard promotion), had his Ragnell blessed; and for the final blow against Ashera, Yune had to give him even more power.

In raw strength he could certainly be the highest among the lords... but overall power? I don't think so.

True; for that last feat, Ike did need a power-up, though I'm pretty sure every FE lord would have needed a power-up to defeat something widely considered a goddess, and by far the most powerful creature FE has ever seen aside maybe from Sothis-when-she-had-a-body. 

What Ike may lack in raw power, I think he more than makes up for in sheer skill; hence my "just a guy with a sword" statement: he's fought stuff with greater raw power and come out on top. Raw power isn't everything. Excluding Byleth for a moment, Corrin probably has the greatest amount of raw power among the FE lords (being half-dragon), and in Birthright, Corrin only beats Xander because Xander let him win as suicide-by-Corrin, as Corrin is established as lacking skill. Ike meets the basic criteria among FE lords when it comes to power: magic sword and all. When it comes to his skill, however, he far outshines them, and that is the reason he is #1 for strongest FE lord.

 

Going back to Byleth, We certainly see Byleth have certain amounts of raw power, especially after they merge with Sothis and go Super-Saiyan, but we have almost no gauge for understanding Byleth's level of skill. It's never really discussed, compared, or demonstrated.

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8 hours ago, B.Leu said:

I kind of agree with Alastor, it's baffling how divine pulse get stopped because "Muh faaaaate" and "Some death cannot just be stopped". I swear, it's like hearing "No one can just deflect the Emerald Splash".
This is pure bullshit, the only reason it doesn't work is because the plot says so.

I'd guess Byleth must be high on the podium, not green, pretty famed, legit skilled/talented in multiple skills (except magic, what's up with that bad spelllist ?), the greatest weapon since Sword of Seals and Ragnell, time power, he also may or may not be immortal.

Good point, I always wondered about that.

Well let's take a moment to acknowledge the fact that time pulse isn't really an element of the story. It was conceived purely for gameplay reasons and not because the plot naturally demanded Byleth had this power.

4 hours ago, Icelerate said:

How many lords have the res to not get put to sleep by Micaiah? 

Well Leif is straight up immune to status elements. So he could probably bum rush Micaiah. He even has a 1-2 range weapon to counter her. Though his basic magic (res) growth isn't fantastic in Thracia. Then again when we're talking Leif, should we take into account just his own game or Master Knight Leif too? If he's Master Knight then Micaiah can deal effective damage, but Leif is also way more powerful a unit.

Another thing in Micaiah's favor is that she's the only(?) lord in the series with access to siege weapons. Maybe Corrin and Robin can too. I remember those games having siege tomes but I don't recall ever actually using them as a player. In either case Micaiah actually has a canon seige tome as a soldier gives her Purge in 3-12.

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

That is actually a fair point. Can Ragnell damage anyone with the Mantle skill without Yune's blessing? That just occurred to me, and I always blessed Ragnell so I don't think I've ever checked.

The game forces you to bless Ragnell (if it didn't, no way anyone would bless Ragnell as it's already unbreakable) and no one with mantle appears before the blessing sequence, so there's no legitimate way to check (I'd say in terms of the game's code the answer is no, as blessed weapons have some kind of blue highlight so it's probably a different flag than Ragnell's standard unbreakability).

Actually you could check using Alondite, as that has all the properties of Ragnell and you aren't forced to bless it.

Edited by Jotari
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4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The game forces you to bless Ragnell (if it didn't, no way anyone would bless Ragnell as it's already unbreakable) and no one with mantle appears before the blessing sequence, so there's no legitimate way to check (I'd say in terms of the game's code the answer is no, as blessed weapons have some kind of blue highlight so it's probably a different flag than Ragnell's standard unbreakability).

Actually you could check using Alondite, as that has all the properties of Ragnell and you aren't forced to bless it.

I'm pretty sure the answer to that is that it doesn't work, now that you mention it. But I am curious what happens if you hack Path of Radiance to put Sephiran's Mantle on an enemy. I wonder if Ragnell would work on them. It would be funny if it did.

Edited by Alastor15243
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41 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

I'm pretty sure the answer to that is that it doesn't work, now that you mention it. But I am curious what happens if you hack Path of Radiance to put Sephiran's Mantle on an enemy. I wonder if Ragnell would work on them. It would be funny if it did.

I doubt it would. And even if it did it wouldn't really confirm anything as it's impossible to do in gameplay (though that being said, Amiti can be used by Renning even though it's impossible to do so in game which I take as canon just because I love the game had that unnecessary attention to detail).

Regardless for the purpose of this conversation, given that we're taking characters at the height of their power, I think it's safe to assume Ike is using a twice blessed Ragnell which he retains after the end of the game (I think? Or does he give it back to Sanaki again? Either way if we're talking relative lord power, he has it).

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S-tier:
Eliwood (canonically the most revered warrior in all of Elibe at the start of BB, he's always sold short man), Ike, Robin, Roy*, Byleth*

*Roy with the Binding Blade
*Byleth only with Sothises help (I.E., Creator Sword, Divine Pulse, etc.)

A-tier:
Alm, Sigurd, Hector, Lyn (Karel confirms her to be highly skilled, and not even at her peak yet, and she's already as skilled as the other two Blazing protagonists in that game), Ephraim, Chrom, Lucina, Corrin, Edelgard, Dimitri

B-tier:
Marth (he beat Camus, CAMUS, in a duel; he's earned at least a B), Seliph, Leif, Xander, Ryoma, Claude, Micaiah*, Byleth*

*Micaiah with Yune's possession, stronger but not INCREDIBLY strong
*Byleth without Sothises help

C-tier:
Celica, Hinoka, Camilla, Takumi, Leo, Roy*

*Roy without the Binding Blade

D-tier:
Sakura, Elise, Micaiah*

*Micaiah without Yune's possession

________________________________________

The ordering in each tier is simply the earliest game to the latest, with asterisk characters at the end.
I know it seems like I'm selling the cast of Fates short but honestly everyone in that game seems less powerful than other protagonists in the series, with the possible exception of *sigh* Corrin.

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5 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

S-tier:
Eliwood

A-tier:
Hector

Doesn't Blazing Sword contradict this? All things considered, they're equal, but as far as pure martial prowess is considered, doesn't Eliwood acknowledge Hector as the superior of the two?

And Nergal?

Edited by Slumber
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6 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

S-tier:
Eliwood (canonically the most revered warrior in all of Elibe at the start of BB, he's always sold short man), Ike, Robin, Roy*, Byleth*

*Roy with the Binding Blade
*Byleth only with Sothises help (I.E., Creator Sword, Divine Pulse, etc.)

A-tier:
Alm, Sigurd, Hector, Lyn (Karel confirms her to be highly skilled, and not even at her peak yet, and she's already as skilled as the other two Blazing protagonists in that game), Ephraim, Chrom, Lucina, Corrin, Edelgard, Dimitri

B-tier:
Marth (he beat Camus, CAMUS, in a duel; he's earned at least a B), Seliph, Leif, Xander, Ryoma, Claude, Micaiah*, Byleth*

*Micaiah with Yune's possession, stronger but not INCREDIBLY strong
*Byleth without Sothises help

C-tier:
Celica, Hinoka, Camilla, Takumi, Leo, Roy*

*Roy without the Binding Blade

D-tier:
Sakura, Elise, Micaiah*

*Micaiah without Yune's possession

________________________________________

The ordering in each tier is simply the earliest game to the latest, with asterisk characters at the end.
I know it seems like I'm selling the cast of Fates short but honestly everyone in that game seems less powerful than other protagonists in the series, with the possible exception of *sigh* Corrin.

If you're going to throw in the likes of Xander and Ryoma, you might as well include Edelgard, Dimitri and Claude.

Edited by Jotari
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8 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

S-tier:
Eliwood (canonically the most revered warrior in all of Elibe at the start of BB, he's always sold short man), Ike, Robin, Roy*, Byleth*

*Roy with the Binding Blade
*Byleth only with Sothises help (I.E., Creator Sword, Divine Pulse, etc.)

A-tier:
Alm, Sigurd, Hector, Lyn (Karel confirms her to be highly skilled, and not even at her peak yet, and she's already as skilled as the other two Blazing protagonists in that game), Ephraim, Chrom, Lucina, Corrin, Edelgard, Dimitri

B-tier:
Marth (he beat Camus, CAMUS, in a duel; he's earned at least a B), Seliph, Leif, Xander, Ryoma, Claude, Micaiah*, Byleth*

*Micaiah with Yune's possession, stronger but not INCREDIBLY strong
*Byleth without Sothises help

C-tier:
Celica, Hinoka, Camilla, Takumi, Leo, Roy*

*Roy without the Binding Blade

D-tier:
Sakura, Elise, Micaiah*

*Micaiah without Yune's possession

________________________________________

The ordering in each tier is simply the earliest game to the latest, with asterisk characters at the end.
I know it seems like I'm selling the cast of Fates short but honestly everyone in that game seems less powerful than other protagonists in the series, with the possible exception of *sigh* Corrin.

Interesting. Why is Robin so high though? He's a strategist with ordinary swords and ordinary magic. The game makes a point of highlighting that Robin's a Jack-of-all-Trades; Master of None. The reason he's able to permanently kill Grima is that he's basically Grima's Horcrux (if you'll pardon the brief Harry Potter reference). I could see Robin as B-Tier; maybe A-Tier at a stretch, but not S-Tier.

Similarly, I don't think the Blinding Blade is enough to make Roy S-Tier; he's well-established in his game as a poor fighter and more of a strategist. Him without the Blinding Blade should be down in D-Tier, and him with the Blinding-Blade should maybe be A-Tier. 

 

Also, I think you forgot a tier:

SS-Tier:

Ike

 

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12 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The dragons of the two Elibe games are different beasts. The Fire Dragon is an actual dragon but Idunns war dragons are more like baby dragons.

Based on what? The size of how they look in game? Jahn specifically states that he is stronger than most dragons, and that’s not mentioning the Dark Dragon.

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14 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Interesting. Why is Robin so high though? He's a strategist with ordinary swords and ordinary magic. The game makes a point of highlighting that Robin's a Jack-of-all-Trades; Master of None. The reason he's able to permanently kill Grima is that he's basically Grima's Horcrux (if you'll pardon the brief Harry Potter reference). I could see Robin as B-Tier; maybe A-Tier at a stretch, but not S-Tier.

 

Robin is also the only character with a reasonable recognition of the title of Lord that has absolutely no personal or legendary weapon at all. The closest post Awakening stuff have managed to come up with is Thoron.

14 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

 

Similarly, I don't think the Blinding Blade is enough to make Roy S-Tier; he's well-established in his game as a poor fighter and more of a strategist. Him without the Blinding Blade should be down in D-Tier, and him with the Blinding-Blade should maybe be A-Tier. 

The Elibe legendary weapons were so powerful their existence fucked up the seasons of the world. That sounds like it's more potent than even Jugdral's Holy Weapons. And the Sword of Seals is the best of them all. I think a decent case could be made saying the Sword of Seals is on par with the Naga tome (though there is probably some degradation at work in the years since they were created and Roy's army uses them).

13 minutes ago, Whisky said:

Based on what? The size of how they look in game? Jahn specifically states that he is stronger than most dragons, and that’s not mentioning the Dark Dragon.

Yahn's boast is exactly what gives credence to the idea that war dragons aren't as strong as natural dragons.

Edited by Jotari
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18 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Doesn't Blazing Sword contradict this? All things considered, they're equal, but as far as pure martial prowess is considered, doesn't Eliwood acknowledge Hector as the superior of the two?

And Nergal?

I specifically cited Binding Blade, that's what tells how far they both actually went.

16 minutes ago, Jotari said:

If you're going to throw in the likes of Xander and Ryoma, you might as well include Edelgard, Dimitri and Claude.

I did.

 

8 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Interesting. Why is Robin so high though? He's a strategist with ordinary swords and ordinary magic. The game makes a point of highlighting that Robin's a Jack-of-all-Trades; Master of None. The reason he's able to permanently kill Grima is that he's basically Grima's Horcrux (if you'll pardon the brief Harry Potter reference). I could see Robin as B-Tier; maybe A-Tier at a stretch, but not S-Tier.

It always just seemed to me that no matter what, Robin succeeded, like he could never TRULY lose. Even without Grima. For that, he's super high.

10 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Similarly, I don't think the Blinding Blade is enough to make Roy S-Tier; he's well-established in his game as a poor fighter and more of a strategist. Him without the Blinding Blade should be down in D-Tier, and him with the Blinding-Blade should maybe be A-Tier. 

Binding Blade is canonically one of the strongest swords in the entirety of the franchise, and Roy wrecks with it. It's more than enough to put him at S. He's also certainly higher than Sakura, Elise, and I'd say Micaiah.
 

11 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Also, I think you forgot a tier:

SS-Tier:

Ike

I did forget an asterisk, actually.
*Ike is only S-tier when he has a super-blessed Ragnall. He's A-tier without. 😉

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