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Where does Byleth place on the canon ranking tier list of Lords?


Jotari
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10 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

I specifically cited Binding Blade, that's what tells how far they both actually went.

Binding Blade calling Eliwood the continent's most revered warrior doesn't explicitly mean he's the BEST warrior. You can be revered for many reasons, and it's clear that as a leader, Eliwood/Pherae commands more respect, while Ostia still has the military might. You can infer that it might mean Eliwood is the better fighter, but it's an inference.

Comparatively, Eliwood saying Hector is the better fighter(And Nergal also confirming this), is far more explicit. One game pretty explicitly says one thing, the other hints that the opposite could be true.

Additionally, is there anything suggesting that Eliwood and Hector were at their peak any time after FE7? If the point is to compare characters at their peak, and at their peak, Hector is stronger than Eliwood... it kind of doesn't matter what FE6 says.

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3 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Binding Blade calling Eliwood the continent's most revered warrior doesn't explicitly mean he's the BEST warrior. You can be revered for many reasons, and it's clear that as a leader, Eliwood/Pherae commands more respect, while Ostia still has the military might. You can infer that it might mean Eliwood is the better fighter, but it's an inference.

Comparatively, Eliwood saying Hector is the better fighter(And Nergal also confirming this), is far more explicit. One game pretty explicitly says one thing, the other hints that the opposite could be true.

Even if we take it as truth that post Blazing Blade (and before he grew sick) Eliwood managed to become a better fighter than Hector, post Blazing Blade he no longer has access to Durandal. So that would put him below most other lords even with his inexplicable improvement.

Also looking at the text of Sword of Seals, Eliwood is called the greatest knight in Lycia and Hector one of the greatest battle tacticians. That seems amusingly inverse to their surface depiction in the prequel.

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1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Also looking at the text of Sword of Seals, Eliwood is called the greatest knight in Lycia and Hector one of the greatest battle tacticians. That seems amusingly inverse to their surface depiction in the prequel.

This is a bit more clear-cut than I thought it was, but it also seems to indicate that IS changed their minds on how they wanted to handle Eliwood and Hector, with Hector becoming the warrior and Eliwood becoming the tactician.

But you're still right, and the point still stands that post-FE7, Eliwood and Hector lose power. And at their peaks, Hector is the stronger of the two. It doesn't matter what BB says about their standings at that point.

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1 minute ago, Slumber said:

This is a bit more clear-cut than I thought it was, but it also seems to indicate that IS changed their minds on how they wanted to handle Eliwood and Hector, with Hector becoming the warrior and Eliwood becoming the tactician.

But you're still right, and the point still stands that post-FE7, Eliwood and Hector lose power. And at their peaks, Hector is the stronger of the two. It doesn't matter what BB says about their standings at that point.

I disagree. I think Eliwood surpassed Hector. Gonna have to agree to disagree here.

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4 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

I disagree. I think Eliwood surpassed Hector. Gonna have to agree to disagree here.

If Eliwood surpassed Hector, it was AFTER FE7, aka AFTER they both lost the weapons that transformed them into super humans.

Their natural peaks were never going to come close to their peaks with Durandal and Armads.

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2 minutes ago, Slumber said:

This is a bit more clear-cut than I thought it was, but it also seems to indicate that IS changed their minds on how they wanted to handle Eliwood and Hector, with Hector becoming the warrior and Eliwood becoming the tactician.

But you're still right, and the point still stands that post-FE7, Eliwood and Hector lose power. And at their peaks, Hector is the stronger of the two. It doesn't matter what BB says about their standings at that point.

Well Sword of Seals does say several times that Hector is a warrior too. Zealot calls him a true warrior and Lillina says she has to be strong as a warrior's daughter. For the context of Eliwood's claim, in isolation would could say knight doesn't necessarily mean fighter, as it could mean chivalry, but it seems in this case it is referring to martial prowess as it's said in the first chapter derisively by a bandit saying the best knight in Lycia can't even fight off an illness. But even taking that claim to be true, Camus is said to be the most able bodied man alive period and Marth managed to beat him. So if we have a title of "best knight ever" that Eliwood and Camus both belong to, and Marth could beat Camus, then Marth could probably beat Eliwood. So I don't really put much stock in such a claim.

3 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

I disagree. I think Eliwood surpassed Hector. Gonna have to agree to disagree here.

This would still be in a post Durandal setting though, right?

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4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

This would still be in a post Durandal setting though, right?

It would be whatever time their peak was. From what Blazing Blade and Binding Blade both say, I sway to the side of believing it when Eliwood is said to be the best of Elibe.

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6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well Sword of Seals does say several times that Hector is a warrior too. Zealot calls him a true warrior and Lillina says she has to be strong as a warrior's daughter. For the context of Eliwood's claim, in isolation would could say knight doesn't necessarily mean fighter, as it could mean chivalry, but it seems in this case it is referring to martial prowess as it's said in the first chapter derisively by a bandit saying the best knight in Lycia can't even fight off an illness. But even taking that claim to be true, Camus is said to be the most able bodied man alive period and Marth managed to beat him. So if we have a title of "best knight ever" that Eliwood and Camus both belong to, and Marth could beat Camus, then Marth could probably beat Eliwood. So I don't really put much stock in such a claim.

There's also the possibility that Hector was never considered a "knight" to begin with. As the highest ranking person in Lycia, chances are he never attained knighthood.

Who would knight him? Himself?

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11 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

It would be whatever time their peak was. From what Blazing Blade and Binding Blade both say, I sway to the side of believing it when Eliwood is said to be the best of Elibe.

He's said to be the best in Elibe at a time when he can barely get out of bed.

7 minutes ago, Slumber said:

There's also the possibility that Hector was never considered a "knight" to begin with. As the highest ranking person in Lycia, chances are he never attained knighthood.

Who would knight him? Himself?

He did have a brother before he took control of Ostia himself. So it's possible. Can't recall if he was ever identified as a Knight in Blazing Blade though.

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3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

He did have a brother before he took control of Ostia himself. So it's possible. Can't recall if he was ever identified as a Knight in Blazing Blade though.

True, but would Uther knight Hector, when Hector is next in line to become marquess? Isn't that like a king knighting a prince?

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13 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

Which tells me that, before he got sick, he surpassed Hector at his peak.

That wouldn't be their peak.

Their peak is obviously when they have Armads and Durandal. Those aren't just weapons, they cause power to flow through their bodies, and enhance their fighting abilities dramatically. You know, when Hector was the stronger one.

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3 minutes ago, Slumber said:

That wouldn't be their peak.

Their peak is obviously when they have Armads and Durandal. Those aren't just weapons, they cause power to flow through their bodies, and enhance their fighting abilities dramatically. You know, when Hector was the stronger one.

According to what the games say, it is, and Eliwood was stronger. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Like I said, gonna have to just agree to disagree.

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11 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

According to what the games say, it is, and Eliwood was stronger. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Like I said, gonna have to just agree to disagree.

FE7 doesn't say that Eliwood is stronger. It says the opposite.

FE7 is the only game that matters in this discussion because it's the only game where Hector and Eliwood are at their peak. Do you think Eliwood managed to acquire power greater than the power that let him jump 40 feet in the air and carve up dragons after FE7? Because Hector and Eliwood give up that power at the end of FE7.

FE6 Hector/Eliwood is entirely irrelevant to the discussion of them at their peaks.

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34 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

Which tells me that, before he got sick, he surpassed Hector at his peak.

And before he surpassed Hector, Hector was stronger while both of them had legendary weapons enhancing their strength beyond what we can reasonably expect a normal human to achieve.

Eliwood even loses WTA after Binding Blade when he starts to focus on lances instead.

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6 minutes ago, Slumber said:

FE7 doesn't say that Eliwood is stronger. It says the opposite.

FE7 is the only game that matters in this discussion because it's the only game where Hector and Eliwood are at their peak. Do you think Eliwood managed to acquire power greater than the power that let him jump 40 feet in the air and carve up dragons after FE7? Because Hector and Eliwood give up that power at the end of FE7.

FE6 Hector/Eliwood is entirely irrelevant to the discussion of them at their peaks.

According to what the games say, it is, and Eliwood was stronger. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Like I said, gonna have to just agree to disagree.

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5 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

According to what the games say, it is, and Eliwood was stronger. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Like I said, gonna have to just agree to disagree.

Agree to disagree is certainly something people aught do more of, but it shouldn't be done to just completely ignore an argument. Are you honestly not seeing the logic being presented to you here? Because it looks pretty objective. How about a tier list.

 

Hector (FE7) with Armads

Eliwood (FE7) with Durandal

Eliwood (between games)

Hector (between games)

Hector (FE7) without Armads

Eliwood (FE7) without Durandal

Hector (FE6) (able to take on several war dragons, possibly stronger than his FE7 self without Armads)

Eliwood (FE6) bedridden

Lyn

 

What part of that ranking do you dispute?

 

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4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Agree to disagree is certainly something people aught do more of, but it shouldn't be done to just completely ignore an argument. Are you honestly not seeing the logic being presented to you here? Because it looks pretty objective. How about a tier list.

I haven't ignored anything, unlike a certain couple people who don't seem to want to leave me alone. It's late. It's after midnight now, and I've said explicitly three times now that I have no desire to discuss this topic any further. I'm well aware of Blazing Blade, Binding Blade, and Elibe lore as a whole; heck, I replay Blazing on a regular, annual basis. I've clearly read into what Elibe lore says in a different way than you and Slumber, which is far more objective than what either of you have had to tell me. Now stop it. Leave me alone. Take a hint. It's after midnight and I don't have the energy for this. Stop.

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12 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

I haven't ignored anything, unlike a certain couple people who don't seem to want to leave me alone. It's late. It's after midnight now, and I've said explicitly three times now that I have no desire to discuss this topic any further. I'm well aware of Blazing Blade, Binding Blade, and Elibe lore as a whole; heck, I replay Blazing on a regular, annual basis. I've clearly read into what Elibe lore says in a different way than you and Slumber, which is far more objective than what either of you have had to tell me. Now stop it. Leave me alone. Take a hint. It's after midnight and I don't have the energy for this. Stop.

If you don't want to discuss it then just don't respond. I'm not putting a gun to your head and forcing you to argue. However I don't think your point has merit and I do think you're ignoring my argument. My argument takes into account the lore you're talking about. That's why Eliwood (between games) is higher than Hector (between games). But lower than both of them with their legendary weapon. So your only course of action is to either directly respond to that point, or ignore me entirely. Responding while simultaneously ignoring the point achieves nothing 

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10 hours ago, Jotari said:

Robin is also the only character with a reasonable recognition of the title of Lord that has absolutely no personal or legendary weapon at all. The closest post Awakening stuff have managed to come up with is Thoron.

The Elibe legendary weapons were so powerful their existence fucked up the seasons of the world. That sounds like it's more potent than even Jugdral's Holy Weapons. And the Sword of Seals is the best of them all. I think a decent case could be made saying the Sword of Seals is on par with the Naga tome (though there is probably some degradation at work in the years since they were created and Roy's army uses them).

I agree about Robin; he shouldn't be S-Tier.

Huh; I did not know that. The Elibe games aren't my area of expertise. Still; Roy without the Sword of Seals should be lower down on the list; one thing I do know about the Elibe games is that they establish Roy to be a poor fighter. Micaiah is probably better in a fight than he is. 

 

10 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

It always just seemed to me that no matter what, Robin succeeded, like he could never TRULY lose. Even without Grima. For that, he's super high.

Binding Blade is canonically one of the strongest swords in the entirety of the franchise, and Roy wrecks with it. It's more than enough to put him at S. He's also certainly higher than Sakura, Elise, and I'd say Micaiah.
 

I did forget an asterisk, actually.
*Ike is only S-tier when he has a super-blessed Ragnall. He's A-tier without. 😉

Yes; Robin's a good tactician. But this isn't a tier list about tactics (if it were, you'd have to place Roy and Micaiah a lot higher than they are now, and Corrin would be at the bottom). As a fighter, all evidence points to him being above-average, but nowhere near a powerhouse. He's a jack-of-all-trades without a legendary weapon. In the story, he has to rely on his versatility in fights as he lacks the raw skill or power otherwise, and, on the rare occasion that he is compared to powerhouse characters like Walhart, it is never favourably. 

Now that I know more about the Sword of Seals, I agree about keeping Roy with the sword at S-Tier. However, Roy without it should be at D-Tier. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Roy's game establish him as a poor fighter? A good tactician, but a poor fighter nonetheless. That fits Micaiah: a good tactician (because she can see the future and is decent at guerilla warfare) but not a good fighter. Micaiah's in D-Tier, so Roy should be as well. 

No; just no. You can't have Robin in S-Tier and Ike in A-Tier. Even without Ragnell, Ike would wipe the floor with Robin. Ike's skills are extremely well-established to be pretty much the best there is. In a world of Mages, Dragon Riders, Shapeshifters, goddesses, a Social-Darwinist Tyrant who started out on the battlefield, Ike is just a guy with a sword, and that's all he needs to be, as he comes out on top anyway. And before you say I'm using the same evidence you used for Robin: 

  1. You used that as justification for keeping Robin at S-Tier, and I'm also using it to say Ike without Ragnell should be at S-Tier
  2. I can use facts and events to show Ike overcoming supernatural obstacles through his skill alone, whereas no such evidence exists for Robin, as his own game establishes him to not be anywhere near the strongest character. 

Ike brings down the Black Knight; only needing Ragnell because of the Black Knight's armour's enchantment. Ike brings Ashera, and while he was channeling Yune's power at the time, the game had made it clear that Yune was in a much weaker state than Ashera because Ashera got to have a proper nap, while Yune was fought and imprisoned in the Medallion against her will, so a fair bit of that was Ike himself. I could list more, but I'll stop there. 

Ike is above S-Tier; he's SS-Tier. 

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Being the best in your world in crossover means nothing. Dracule Mihawk is the best swordsman in the one piece universe, but put him in the Bleach universe and he dies againist any high tier because island level is the top of One Piece and Planet level is the top of Bleach. Being the best in a weak game still means you likely getting bodied by a mid tier of the strongest universe.

Ike beating the Black Knight does not mean much if the BK best feats is veating Greil, whose best feats are hype and defeating featless people. A better feat is that Kurthnaga destroyed a castle, and we know for sure that Ike can beat him, meaning he is at least at Large building level. We could go farther if we assume that ike did the heavy lifting while fighting Ashnard and Rajaon(wich are above Kurt whitout counting Ashnard at all, and he is likely just a litle behind the BK). 

We don't know how many characters can survive canonically the attacks of Grima, a being that on size alone is at least Mountain level, but i would bet my money on the lords being among then. So it's not that farfetched to compare Robin to Ike whitout the blessings of Yune. 

The immaculate one is proved to be city block level at least by a cutscene. In the same cutscene some demonic beast corner her and byleth Byleth kill them, meaning both the beasts and Byleth are strong enought to be fight a city block level character. Again, not that far from ike whitout blessings. But i feel that those are an huge power jump, while Byketh was already more or less at their peak.

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56 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Being the best in your world in crossover means nothing. Dracule Mihawk is the best swordsman in the one piece universe, but put him in the Bleach universe and he dies againist any high tier because island level is the top of One Piece and Planet level is the top of Bleach. Being the best in a weak game still means you likely getting bodied by a mid tier of the strongest universe.

Ike beating the Black Knight does not mean much if the BK best feats is veating Greil, whose best feats are hype and defeating featless people. A better feat is that Kurthnaga destroyed a castle, and we know for sure that Ike can beat him, meaning he is at least at Large building level. We could go farther if we assume that ike did the heavy lifting while fighting Ashnard and Rajaon(wich are above Kurt whitout counting Ashnard at all, and he is likely just a litle behind the BK). 

We don't know how many characters can survive canonically the attacks of Grima, a being that on size alone is at least Mountain level, but i would bet my money on the lords being among then. So it's not that farfetched to compare Robin to Ike whitout the blessings of Yune. 

The immaculate one is proved to be city block level at least by a cutscene. In the same cutscene some demonic beast corner her and byleth Byleth kill them, meaning both the beasts and Byleth are strong enought to be fight a city block level character. Again, not that far from ike whitout blessings. But i feel that those are an huge power jump, while Byketh was already more or less at their peak.

True. I just didn't want to list those things because I was listing examples of things that Ike was explicitly shown in the story to overcome through his skill. We know for sure that Ike can beat Kurthnaga, but we don't see it, so I didn't list it. 

Robin and them survived Grima's attack because of Naga. The story goes out of its way to show that she saved them. Besides, I think we can all agree that Ike vs Robin, Ike wins. 

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How do we know for certain that Kurthnaga loses to Ike in a fight? Kurthnaga's presence alone caused the Laguz Allaince, including Ike to retreat despite having routed the Daein army. Even the BK's mere presence can't do that. Kurthnaga is on a higher power level than Tibarn, Black Knight and Ike. 

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14 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

True. I just didn't want to list those things because I was listing examples of things that Ike was explicitly shown in the story to overcome through his skill. We know for sure that Ike can beat Kurthnaga, but we don't see it, so I didn't list it. 

Robin and them survived Grima's attack because of Naga. The story goes out of its way to show that she saved them. Besides, I think we can all agree that Ike vs Robin, Ike wins. 

Well not necessarily. Ike has a low res stat and Robin uses magic (and while stats shouldn't be taken as evidence for canon, I think the trends in them should be reliable enough to determine what this person is capable of. Like we can determine Lyn is speedy and skillful from her stats). Ike probably ranks higher than Robin over all, but depending on how Ike handles magic, Robin could be the winner on a 1 on 1.

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