Where does Byleth place on the canon ranking tier list of Lords?

[Icelerate]

1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Truthfully, this is something that can be very subject to what one defines the words.

At least how I interpret it, power isn't just strength. So, being the strongest doesn't mean you're the most powerful if you aren't the most dexterous, fastest, resilient, intelligent, etc.

For your tower definition, it depends if you mean big in height, big in length, big in width, an average of the three dimensions, etc. With large being or not the length and width, or just the height, or all three, etc.

The context is in regards to combat ability. It takes into account all parameters of interest, such as those you listed, and more to give an absolute level in power. For example, in the Naruto manga, Hiruzen having the reputation of being the strongest of the Gokage is talking about his combat ability because the whole point of fighting someone and gauging their power is how well they function in a fight. If it meant the physically strongest, that would be an absurd interpretation unless you want to tell me old man Hiruzen is physically stronger than the Raikage. Now I think Kishi retconned Hiruzen's power level due to Hashirama but that's besides the point. 

When people make tier lists in regards to power level, it's not solely physical strength so I'm not sure why you'd hold such a ridiculous interpretation. 

You don't have to be the most fastest, intelligent, etc to be the strongest. 

Of course, one needs the context of the statement, but physical strength is just one stat and not something one hypes up when talking about overall combat prowess in general. 

Similarly, when people use the term "strongest unit", they are talking about "best unit" from a gameplay perspective, not which unit has the highest str stat. 

[vanguard333]

12 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Truthfully, this is something that can be very subject to what one defines the words.

At least how I interpret it, power isn't just strength. So, being the strongest doesn't mean you're the most powerful if you aren't the most dexterous, fastest, resilient, intelligent, etc.

For your tower definition, it depends if you mean big in height, big in length, big in width, an average of the three dimensions, etc. With large being or not the length and width, or just the height, or all three, etc.

Thank you. Honestly; I think a huge amount of our disagreement on this thread have been our different interpretations of power based on which we see as more important: raw power, physical strength, combat skill, etc. 

 

For instance, I'll admit that I've been placing particular emphasis on combat skill, but I have good reasons for that:

• It's one of the most clearly-defined of these characteristics for at least one of the lords (Ike).
• Fire Emblem is often a world where raw power alone generally isn't enough. Corrin had the most raw power of all the lords pre-Three Houses, and yet they'd probably get their arse handed to them by half of the other lords. 

So, since Ike has by far the most combat skill, and it has been shown to be enough for him to relatively easily beat creatures with far more raw power, Ike still beats every other FE lord. Byleth's only advantage is that he has two tries to beat Ike thanks to Divine Pulse (two because if he loses the second time, no amount of rewinds will change it). 

[Acacia Sgt]

Honestly, at the end of the day, I won't have a definite opinion over who is the most powerful until we have concrete evidence over how any given power, ability, item, weapon, etc. of any given continent would actually fare against each other.

[Whisky]

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

We're not saying he's exactly the same. Yes; he gets the power-up from the wizard, and he gets more used to being on the battlefield. But we don't see any particular feats of strength/skill. We already see him instantly be good at everything he needs to be good at right from the get-go, so there's no sense that he does indeed grow (outside the power-up). For instance, he may have been inexperienced, but there's no sense of that; everything suggests that he is at home on the battlefield right from the get-go. 

For a tactical example, his first time as leader has him win a siege on Zofia's capital city on his first try; it makes so much of what he does in part 3 pale in comparison; hindering any sense of growth. Similarly, for strength, Berkut showing up would've been a good time to have Alm show growth by having Berkut win the first time. Instead, Berkut just keeps getting beat over and over again. No sense of growth for Alm. 

Does that make sense?

No, actually. It seems very inconsistent. How do you decide what a videoGAME character is capable of if you don’t look at what they are capable of in the GAMEplay. This is a video game. What I see characters do in gameplay is what I believe they can do.

I’m genuinely confused how you decide what is canon for a character and what isn’t? You only accept feats that are specifically stated in dialogue? Not ones done in gameplay?

Personally I take everything I see in the game from gameplay, story, dialogue, lore, etc., as long as none of it contradicts itself. If the story implies one thing and the gameplay implies something else, then we have an inconsistency that we need to figure out, called gameplay/story segregation. Gameplay story segregation does not automatically exist without the contradiction.

In the Alm example, you can say that it’s bad writing. You can say that it is presented poorly and that Alm is a Mary Sue. You can say that it isn’t done in a way that properly shows or feels how much stronger Alm has gotten, but you can’t say that he didn’t get stronger. In gameplay, he gains experience and gains stats. In story, logically, we can pretty much just assume that a character would grow stronger from combat experience. Does Alm not have the Scenscale in your canon because that’s only a gameplay skill?

Can’t we say the same thing about Ike? One of Ike’s greatest feats is defeating the Black Knight. That happens in gameplay. We only know that Ike is stronger than the Black Knight because we defeated him first hand in gameplay.

Ike defeats the Black Knight in POR but it is later stated that the Black Knight was holding back. He then defeats him again in RD. What makes that different than the Alm and Berkut example, besides better writing?

I feel that your canon is just decided based on what ever you decide at the time.

I’m not trying to be rude or otherwise difficult, I just genuinely don’t understand how you can basically choose to ignore GAMEplay when analyzing characters from videoGAMES.

 

Edit: It’s generally harder to agree on loose ideas and easier to agree on specific points.

Rather than going back and forth on our own definitions of how we like to analyze characters, in think we should look at specific points.

I have a feeling that we wouldn’t even disagree on most specific feats. You don’t disagree that Alm got stronger throughout the game for example, you just don’t like the way I described or how it handled in the writing of the game.

Is there a specific point that you actually disagree with me on?

Edited January 26, 2020 by Whisky

[Flere210]

Ike get a bunch of 1vs1 fights, the other lords usually does not (corrin kinda does but just once, still, beating Ryoma is not a small feat). He goes from.getting stomped by BK, to defeat a BK that was holding back, to defeat the BK. We also know the BK defeat ranulf and Skrimir, so we have a clear idea where he stand. 

Now, just because the other lords does not have a duel in canon does not mean that they did not gree in th story. 

It just make no sense that, for example, Lyn have a difficult fight againist Batta the Beast and then she goes toe to toe whit the Black Fang finest and morphs, or even just the fact that she is described having a strong quintessence. Unless we assume that Batta is actually a beast in combat. 

It does not make sense that Alm was already able to fight dragon gods when he was sparring whit Gray, unless we assume that Gray was already a master swordsman in his own right. 

It does not make sense that Byleth get ridiculed by Thales twice and then proceed to storm his base and kill him. 

All lords grow while the game progress, and some grow a lot. Even Chrom, that get the best early feats, need to grow a lot, because using lon'qu as a measuring stick, Lucina is either weaker or on par whit Basilio, and Chrom have to defeat Wallmart, that effortlessly destroyed Basilio helped by Flavia.

[vanguard333]

9 hours ago, Whisky said:

Personally I take everything I see in the game from gameplay, story, dialogue, lore, etc., as long as none of it contradicts itself. If the story implies one thing and the gameplay implies something else, then we have an inconsistency that we need to figure out, called gameplay/story segregation. Gameplay story segregation does not automatically exist without the contradiction.

I am well aware of what Gameplay & Story Segregation is.

 

9 hours ago, Whisky said:

No, actually. It seems very inconsistent. How do you decide what a videoGAME character is capable of if you don’t look at what they are capable of in the GAMEplay. This is a video game. What I see characters do in gameplay is what I believe they can do.

I’m genuinely confused how you decide what is canon for a character and what isn’t? You only accept feats that are specifically stated in dialogue? Not ones done in gameplay?

I'll admit that communication is not a strong point of mine, but I'll give it a go: I do in fact look at what they're able to accomplish in the gameplay.

The thing is that I don't include stuff like level-up because it can be so widely-variable and non-reflective of what the story says about the characters' power levels. I could refuse to level up Ike while levelling up Gatrie and feeding him every stat-boosting item; he still loses soundly to Ike in his B-Support with Marcia. I could have an RNG-Blessed Ferdinand that turns out better than Edelgard in every stat (which almost happened to me), and he still loses soundly to her in their support conversations. 

9 hours ago, Whisky said:

In the Alm example, you can say that it’s bad writing. You can say that it is presented poorly and that Alm is a Mary Sue. You can say that it isn’t done in a way that properly shows or feels how much stronger Alm has gotten, but you can’t say that he didn’t get stronger. In gameplay, he gains experience and gains stats. In story, logically, we can pretty much just assume that a character would grow stronger from combat experience. Does Alm not have the Scenscale in your canon because that’s only a gameplay skill?

I would say that Alm does have Scenscale in canon, in the same way that Ike has Aether as a technique. Of course, I doubt that Scenscale actually damages Alm in the context of the story (otherwise it would be a stupid technique). 

There's the thing; that's what I've been saying this whole time: there's nothing to go on that properly conveys how much stronger Alm himself gets. I would say level-up doesn't count because it can be completely non-reflective. For example, Marth levels up in Shadow Dragon, but everything in that game's barebones story suggests that he doesn't get any stronger or more skilled; just more used to being in the middle of a war. 

I'm not saying it's guaranteed 100% conclusive that Alm doesn't grow stronger; I'm saying that there's hardly any evidence of it, so I can't say definitively that he does get stronger. 

 

9 hours ago, Whisky said:

Can’t we say the same thing about Ike? One of Ike’s greatest feats is defeating the Black Knight. That happens in gameplay. We only know that Ike is stronger than the Black Knight because we defeated him first hand in gameplay.

Ike defeats the Black Knight in POR but it is later stated that the Black Knight was holding back. He then defeats him again in RD. What makes that different than the Alm and Berkut example, besides better writing?

Here's the difference: Ike overcoming the Black Knight is reflected in the presentation and the story. In both games, it is established as a one-on-one fight, and a one-on-one fight that he could not win before. This is reflected in both the gameplay and the plot: Ike overcomes a tremendous feat that he could not beforehand singlehandedly. It is established as a feat of skill.

By contrast, if we look at Alm vs Berkut, Alm never takes him on singlehandedly. The first time, it's three people vs Alm's forces in what amounts to a skirmish. It is established as tough, but it is also the first time their army's fighting Rigelians as opposed to Zofians. The second time, it is a pitched battle: one army vs another army, and they are more used to fighting Rigelian forces. The third time, it is Alm's army vs powered-up-and-crazy Berkut and a pack of monsters. I would say that that counts as growth for the army: growing harder and more cohesive and able to bring down tougher forces as a result, but it isn't contextualized as a personal achievement based on skill. Does that make sense?

10 hours ago, Whisky said:

I feel that your canon is just decided based on what ever you decide at the time.

Whatever you may feel about how I'm interpreting the games, it isn't based on "whatever I decide at the time". I do have rules. The thing is though that this stuff can get complicated; it all comes down to context. 

 

10 hours ago, Whisky said:

Edit: It’s generally harder to agree on loose ideas and easier to agree on specific points.

Rather than going back and forth on our own definitions of how we like to analyze characters, in think we should look at specific points.

I have a feeling that we wouldn’t even disagree on most specific feats. You don’t disagree that Alm got stronger throughout the game for example, you just don’t like the way I described or how it handled in the writing of the game.

Is there a specific point that you actually disagree with me on?

Okay. Can you please provide me a specific point?

[Flere210]

Alm finish off Duma, it's not something the army could have done for him.

[Whisky]

3 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I am well aware of what Gameplay & Story Segregation is.

I may have misunderstood you before. I just don’t think that there is any Gameplay Story Segregation without a specific contradiction between them, and I do not think that levels usually contradict anything. There are exceptions like what you pointed out, but that gets complicated.

I think it’s safe to say that characters grow throughout the game. I agree with Flere’s above post. I think that characters would grow from experience, and the levels in game don’t contradict that. They support it.

We can look at a characters feats and ask, would Alm at the beginning of the game be able to defeat Duma? (Not on his own. I do not agree that Alm could defeat Duma 1v1.) His feats at the end of the game compared to the beginning seem to imply growth.

I agree that it could have been written better, but that doesn’t mean that he didn’t grow stronger canonically because he always wins all of his battles throughout the game. You can grow without failure.

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I'll admit that communication is not a strong point of mine, but I'll give it a go: I do in fact look at what they're able to accomplish in the gameplay.

Thank you. This is an interesting discussion.

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The thing is that I don't include stuff like level-up because it can be so widely-variable and non-reflective of what the story says about the characters' power levels. I could refuse to level up Ike while levelling up Gatrie and feeding him every stat-boosting item; he still loses soundly to Ike in his B-Support with Marcia. I could have an RNG-Blessed Ferdinand that turns out better than Edelgard in every stat (which almost happened to me), and he still loses soundly to her in their support conversations. 
 

What if in canon, characters are expected to have grown a certain amount? In game, you can choose how much to use a character, how many levels they gain etc. But character endings in most FE games talk about all of the characters as if they’ve grown a lot and become strong even if you didn’t use them, like Guy being stated as a great swordman at the end of FE7 even if you never used him.

In the Dimitri / Raphael support, Dimitri is stronger than Raphael. I think this is a great example of Gameplay Story Integration because Dimitri does indeed have higher Str base and growth. You could have been training only Raphael and he could be stronger than Dimitri in game, but most of the time, Dimitri should be stronger if you train both of them.

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I would say that Alm does have Scenscale in canon, in the same way that Ike has Aether as a technique. Of course, I doubt that Scenscale actually damages Alm in the context of the story (otherwise it would be a stupid technique). 
 

I mean, I’d say that it uses energy in some way or another. I don’t think he could just spam it for free in canon.

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There's the thing; that's what I've been saying this whole time: there's nothing to go on that properly conveys how much stronger Alm himself gets. I would say level-up doesn't count because it can be completely non-reflective. For example, Marth levels up in Shadow Dragon, but everything in that game's barebones story suggests that he doesn't get any stronger or more skilled; just more used to being in the middle of a war. 
 

There is dialogue in Shadow Dragon that implies that Marth doesn’t grow stronger or more skilled? Like Flere said above, I think we can logically conclude that characters wouldn’t be able to defeat dragons and gods and such at the beginning the game. I don’t know about the specific Shadow Dragon example though. But if there isn’t dialogue implying that he doesn’t get stronger then I would say that he does. Like I said, in my opinion, Gameplay Story Segregation only exists once there is a contradiction. If there is nothing in story or dialogue contradicting Marth gaining levels in game, then I think that the levels are a way of seeing how much stronger he has gotten.

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I'm not saying it's guaranteed 100% conclusive that Alm doesn't grow stronger; I'm saying that there's hardly any evidence of it, so I can't say definitively that he does get stronger. 

This actually seems to be where our disagreement is then. Like Flere said, I think we can logically conclude that Alm has gotten stronger throughout the game. I do not think that Alm In the village at the beginning of the game would be able to defeat Duma, or Berkut for that matter. We see him go from fighting bandits to fighting elite soldiers and monsters. Also like I said, if the story and dialogue do not specifically contradict leveling up, then I think leveling up is a way for us to see how much stronger characters get. This is a video game, and I think that our first hand experience of playing through the game tells us a lot.

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Here's the difference: Ike overcoming the Black Knight is reflected in the presentation and the story. In both games, it is established as a one-on-one fight, and a one-on-one fight that he could not win before. This is reflected in both the gameplay and the plot: Ike overcomes a tremendous feat that he could not beforehand singlehandedly. It is established as a feat of skill.

By contrast, if we look at Alm vs Berkut, Alm never takes him on singlehandedly. The first time, it's three people vs Alm's forces in what amounts to a skirmish. It is established as tough, but it is also the first time their army's fighting Rigelians as opposed to Zofians. The second time, it is a pitched battle: one army vs another army, and they are more used to fighting Rigelian forces. The third time, it is Alm's army vs powered-up-and-crazy Berkut and a pack of monsters. I would say that that counts as growth for the army: growing harder and more cohesive and able to bring down tougher forces as a result, but it isn't contextualized as a personal achievement based on skill. Does that make sense?
 

I don’t know. I think it could be both. All of Alm’s forces have grown including Alm himself. Learning how to fight against Regelian forces is a type of growth too. Like I said, I agree that it could have been presented better in the story but that doesn’t mean that Alm doesn’t grow. Has Ike gotten stronger and more skilled or has he just gotten more used to fighting the Black Knight? Has Alm gotten stronger and more skilled or has he just gotten more used to fighting Regelians? Is Alm ever stated to surpass Sir Mycen? That would be a clear statement of growth.

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Whatever you may feel about how I'm interpreting the games, it isn't based on "whatever I decide at the time". I do have rules. The thing is though that this stuff can get complicated; it all comes down to context. 

Sorry. I didn’t mean to be rude. Just trying to understand. I agree that it gets complicated and it depends on the context.

I think that it is very hard to compare characters from different games.

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Okay. Can you please provide me a specific point?

I guess the only thing we disagree on is the levels and Alm growing. Do you agree that seeing characters fight dragons in game means that those characters are indeed able to fight dragons? 

Edited January 26, 2020 by Whisky

[Whisky]

21 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Because it's common sense based on what happen in the lore. If mundane weapons used by average joes can kill dragon, then they would not cause all that destruction because a battalion of archers would be their end.  Also, at least in echoes the shield that give the most defense is made of dragon scales, wich imply that the scales of Archaneia dragons are at least harder than steel. 

Actually people with regular weapons can kill dragons. In the Scouring, the dragons said that they were losing because the humans outnumbered them. I don’t remember the exact dialogue, if the Divine Weapons were created before or after the War Dragons, but I do remember that the humans outnumbering the dragons is specifically cited as a reason why the dragons were losing and needed to create the War Dragons.

A normal weapon will normally have little effect on a dragon, but if there are enough people attacking the dragon, it would be possible for them to take it down eventually. A lot of them would probably die in the process though.

Edit: A lot more humans were involved in the Scouring than just the eight heroes. And most of them wouldn’t have Divine Weapons.

Edited January 26, 2020 by Whisky

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

Alm finish off Duma, it's not something the army could have done for him.

True. I will agree to that. I will just point out two caveats: beating Duma comes after the power-up from the wizard, and Alm can only do it because he has the Falchion; much like Marth, and the dragon Marth went up against wasn't rotting. As I established before, the plot of Shadow Dragon almost-explicitly indicates that Marth doesn't grow stronger over the course of the game; just more used to war. But, Duma was fed a bunch of souls and was a divine dragon, which could balance out the whole rotting vs relatively fresh...

It's a toss-up. How much of it is Alm, and how much of it is him having the sword that makes slaying Duma a lot more possible... I don't know; it's hard to tell. I give him credit that it's a feat he achieves, and one that he would not have been able to do at the beginning. But the falchion creates such a potentially huge caveat when you think about it...

 

Side Note: personally, I think it would've been far more thematically appropriate if Alm pointed out the core problem with Rudolph's plan (it, like all plans stemming from Duma's philosophy, focuses solely on individual power) and he rejects that philosophy in favour of strength through working-together as a moment of character growth, and then, when it came to Duma, it took both Alm and Celica working together: Celica striking a critical blow and Alm finishing Duma off, like how it takes both Eowyn and Merry to defeat the Witch-King in Return of the King. 

 

Anyway.

1 hour ago, Whisky said:

I may have misunderstood you before. I just don’t think that there is any Gameplay Story Segregation without a specific contradiction between them, and I do not think that levels usually contradict anything. There are exceptions like what you pointed out, but that gets complicated.

I think it’s safe to say that characters grow throughout the game. I agree with Flere’s above post. I think that characters would grow from experience, and the levels in game don’t contradict that. They support it.

We can look at a characters feats and ask, would Alm at the beginning of the game be able to defeat Duma? (Not on his own. I do not agree that Alm could defeat Duma 1v1.) His feats at the end of the game compared to the beginning seem to imply growth.

I agree that it could have been written better, but that doesn’t mean that he didn’t grow stronger canonically because he always wins all of his battles throughout the game. You can grow without failure.

Perhaps. I guess I just extend gameplay and story segregation to anything in gameplay that doesn't correlate to story and vice-versa; for example: do any of us believe that every iron axe breaks after exactly 40 swings of it? I admit that that is a probably a bit too broad of a definition; still, I haven't found any other word for the more broad version. 

See what I typed above for the thing about Alm. 

1 hour ago, Whisky said:

Thank you. This is an interesting discussion.

You're welcome.

1 hour ago, Whisky said:

What if in canon, characters are expected to have grown a certain amount? In game, you can choose how much to use a character, how many levels they gain etc. But character endings in most FE games talk about all of the characters as if they’ve grown a lot and become strong even if you didn’t use them, like Guy being stated as a great swordsman at the end of FE7 even if you never used him.

In the Dimitri / Raphael support, Dimitri is stronger than Raphael. I think this is a great example of Gameplay Story Integration because Dimitri does indeed have higher Str base and growth. You could have been training only Raphael and he could be stronger than Dimitri in game, but most of the time, Dimitri should be stronger if you train both of them.

For the epilogue thing, I would say that that would indicate characters growing, but the statement that the characters have grown would be the evidence in that scenario, would it not?

Huh; that is an interesting way to look at that. Yes; characters' base stats and growths do tend to reflect their level of power (see Rhys' 5% strength growth for details). I was talking about the act of levelling up specifically, but you are right about that with character bases and growths. 

1 hour ago, Whisky said:

I mean, I’d say that it uses energy in some way or another. I don’t think he could just spam it for free in canon.

I guess it depends on what HP is supposed to represent. It's always described as representing the health of the unit, and I always interpreted that to mean stuff like whether or not they're bleeding or have been hit in the head or stuff like that, since, if exhaustion did deplete HP, late-game chapters would be all the more grueling. This interpretation is supported in Shadows of Valentia by HP and Fatigue be two different things. 

1 hour ago, Whisky said:

There is dialogue in Shadow Dragon that implies that Marth doesn’t grow stronger or more skilled? Like Flere said above, I think we can logically conclude that characters wouldn’t be able to defeat dragons and gods and such at the beginning the game. I don’t know about the specific Shadow Dragon example though. But if there isn’t dialogue implying that he doesn’t get stronger then I would say that he does. Like I said, in my opinion, Gameplay Story Segregation only exists once there is a contradiction. If there is nothing in story or dialogue contradicting Marth gaining levels in game, then I think that the levels are a way of seeing how much stronger he has gotten.

Ah; it's been a while since I played that game. I'll see if I can find it, but it'll have to be a quick search as I have tests to study for...

Okay; I didn't find one during my (quick and incomplete) search of Shadow Dragon's script, but I did find this interesting bit of dialogue from the sequel game: 

Jagen: This is the path depicted in the Anri Saga. The first obstacle in Anri's Way: The Desert of Death. With its scorching sun, raging sandstorm, savage clansmen of the sands and wyverns that soar and dominate the skies. As the city of illusion shimmers in the distance, we can only stand and gaze... Or so the legend has it.

Marth: So Anri came through here as well. And by himself, too...

Jagen: That's right. Your ancestor and Altea's founder, King Anri... To save Princess Artemis, he set out on a journey to seek the divine sword Falchion.

Marth: King Anri was strong. I wouldn't be able to cross through here alone. I'm truly grateful to those who offered to accompany me through this desert.

Chris: You are strong, sire. Everyone wants to be with you. Wherever you go, they will follow. That's what I believe. That's something you have that King Anri never did.

Marth: Thank you. I don't have Anri's power. But I have all of you. Wonderful companions like you, Chris. That's why I won't give up. Let's go, Chris.

It's not exactly what I was talking about, but it's interesting food for thought. 

1 hour ago, Whisky said:

This actually seems to be where our disagreement is then. Like Flere said, I think we can logically conclude that Alm has gotten stronger throughout the game. I do not think that Alm In the village at the beginning of the game would be able to defeat Duma, or Berkut for that matter. We see him go from fighting bandits to fighting elite soldiers and monsters. Also like I said, if the story and dialogue do not specifically contradict leveling up, then I think leveling up is a way for us to see how much stronger characters get. This is a video game, and I think that our first hand experience of playing through the game tells us a lot.

I don’t know. I think it could be both. All of Alm’s forces have grown including Alm himself. Learning how to fight against Regelian forces is a type of growth too. Like I said, I agree that it could have been presented better in the story but that doesn’t mean that Alm doesn’t grow. Has Ike gotten stronger and more skilled or has he just gotten more used to fighting the Black Knight? Has Alm gotten stronger and more skilled or has he just gotten more used to fighting Regelians? Is Alm ever stated to surpass Sir Mycen? That would be a clear statement of growth.

See above for what I have to say about Alm vs Duma. 

With Ike, it is made painfully clear in much of the dialogue throughout Path of Radiance that he grows stronger and more skilled; he is repeatedly shown sparring with new allies, working to get stronger, getting help from other swordsmen (most notably Stefan), etc. It's conveyed so thoroughly (because of how strongly tied it is to his character arc) that I don't expect other FE games to go that far, even though, purely from a writing standpoint, it would help if more recent FE games gave a better sense of power-escalation and power scaling. 

I agree that Alm surpassing Mycen would be a clear statement of growth. It doesn't happen, but if it did happen, it would've helped.

1 hour ago, Whisky said:

Sorry. I didn’t mean to be rude. Just trying to understand. I agree that it gets complicated and it depends on the context.

I think that it is very hard to compare characters from different games.

I guess the only thing we disagree on is the levels and Alm growing. Do you agree that seeing characters fight dragons in game means that those characters are indeed able to fight dragons? 

It's okay. I figured that you weren't trying to be rude. 

That it is; it is rather difficult. For me, I try to find things that they share, and I use that to get an approximation. For instance, when I was comparing Ike to Byleth, I pointed out that both were raised by fathers that were once the greatest fighter in their respective continent; using Jeralt and Greil as an approximation helps. The difference is that Ike is compared to his dad constantly, while Byleth's skills are never really compared to Jeralt's; making that point of comparison pretty much void. So, yeah; it is complicated. 

It depends on what you mean by "seeing characters fight dragons in game". Even dragons in FE can vary in power level and what it takes to actually be able to fight one and survive, let alone win. It also depends on the context in which the dragon is fought; stuff like, "It can beat one of us, but not all of us!", "It's pinned down! Now's our chance!", etc., make interpreting the level of achievement more complicated in different ways. 

[Icelerate]

On 1/25/2020 at 5:46 PM, Slumber said:

That aside, the rest seems accurate. Eirika doesn't have any explicit combat feats and isn't really considered anything crazy, especially compared to her brother.

Eirika in her route beats Lyon possessed by the Demon King. You can beat him with any unit in the army but the dialogue makes it clear that canonically, it was her fight, in her route, and Ephraim's fight, in his route.

Spoiler

(Light dims slightly, Lyon’s speech bubble becomes black)

Evil Lyon:
“Oh, please…Are you done turning your failings into some sad epic of personal tragedy… It’s time we started then. I have a ritual to complete…and some nuisances to kill.”

Eirika:
“Shut your mouth. I won’t allow you to desecrate Lyon’s body any further. You will not return to this world. I will stop you myself if I must.”

Evil Lyon:
“Ah, is that so… And do you honestly think yourself capable, wench… You once prayed for this fool’s salvation. Can you bring yourself to kill him…”

Eirika:
“I can and I will. I made a promise to Lyon, and I intend to honor it.”

 

On her route, the developers actually removed Ephraim's boss conversation with Lyon intentionally despite not doing such a thing in other instances so it gives credence to the fact that she was the one to beat him solo.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Eirika vs. Lyon (Eirika Final Chapter)

Eirika:
“Lyon… I hope you’re watching. I will defeat the Demon King.”

Lyon:
“Hah, do you really think your blade can hurt me? Cut me and see! If you can even hit me, that is.”

 

Also, you bring up her brother, but he disagrees with you and thinks his sister is a good match for him. 

Spoiler

Ephraim: No, not at all! Rather, I am surprised at your rapid progress after such a short time! I think you would give me an excellent match were we to spar.

 

Her strength is hyped by Valter despite not promoting with the bracelet or wielding the Sieglinde just yet.

Spoiler

️

Spoiler

Valter:

“You there, with the girl. Tell me, would that be the wayward princess of Renais? Well, this must be my lucky day. You’re a dead man. The wench goes with me.”

Which is made more impressive by the fact that both the bracelet and the Sieglinde contain immense power so imagine how strong Eirika is afterwards when even before she's on the same level as Valter. 

Spoiler

Eirika:
“…Huh? Brother, look! Our bracelets, they’re…”

Ephraim:
“What is this? Are they reacting to the light of the stone? Eirika’s Lunar Brace and Ephraim’s Solar Brace glow in response to the Sacred Stone. With the power of the bracelets, the twins can now change classes.”

(A confirmation message will appear, asking you if you want to change the classes of the twins. If not, instead of changing class, you will receive a Lunar Brace for Eirika and a Solar Brace for Ephraim, which you can use on them anytime you want)

(Back to the chamber with the twins and Seth)

Eirika:
“I can’t believe the bracelets contain so much power…”

Spoiler

Eirika:
“These are the ancient weapons of our ancestors–the weapons of heroes. They were enshrined generations ago, to be used only by the king… and only in times of dire need. Such an awful power they possess, and yet we need them to restore peace. I’ve seen enough of the horrors of war, but I can’t turn my back on it. If we merely turn our eyes away, we surrender our world to atrocity. And so, I must fight. I’ll do whatever I must do to bring back the peace we once knew.”

 

After she promotes and wields the Sieglinde, the Demon King acknowledges her strength as well. 

Spoiler

 

 

 

Spoiler

Eirika:
“Hold, Lyon!”

Evil Lyon:
“Now, I know your strength. It is time to leave. I sacrifice this flesh and return to my body of old. This does not end. The world will drown again in darkness.”

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Icelerate

[Etrurian emperor]

About the Alm and Ike thing. I think that what Alm lacks compared to Ike is a solid measuring stick. 

The Black Knight is actually a really good measuring stick for Ike's journey. He starts out as an unstoppable force when compared to Ike but he has to flee for Caineghis and he fights Tibarn inconclusively two times. This means that he's likely on the same level as Tibarn, and that he's weaker than the Lion King but stronger than just about everyone else. After Ike's first victory he isn't the equal of the Black Knight but that the knight recognizes Ike as Greil's promising successor is a sign of how far he came. Later when he does surpass the Black Knight we can safely assume Ike is stronger than Tibarn too. That Caineghis recognizes Ike as a fun sparring partner further suggest Ike is now on the Lion king's level as the strongest Beorc sparring with the strongest Laguz. 

Alm doesn't have this. He has a rival in Berkut but Berkut has no feats and is kind of a pathetic loser. Alm struggles against Berkut the first time but in the end every time they fought and whatever help Berkut has it always ends in a victory for Alm. We don't even seem to see Berkut defeat people that aren't Alm to hype him up. And the way Echoes is written means there aren't many villains that can serve as a benchmark. Most of the bosses are nobodies. Alm doesn't really have the achievement on par with defeating the Black Knight, killing the four Fang or Grado generals. The lack of a villainous presence for Alm to overcome means he lacks real feats until facing Duma. Though I do think he is one of the stronger lords, its just that the lack of villains doesn't make this as clear as it should logically be. 

What defines the power of the heroes is usually the power of the villains they defeat. The Fates royals also suffers from this to some extend. Growing stronger than team Garon isn't exactly a feat in their favor because its barely a feat at all. In a sense this goes for the Three Houses cast too. The Slitherers aren't impressive villains so defeating them doesn't feel impressive for the heroes. Meanwhile the fights between the classmates has narrative weight but they are all very young when the war starts and the older generation doesn't come off as particularly strong. 

One strong point of Awakening is that we can see Chrom's growth through the villains he defeat. Killing Gangrel the mad clown is a fine feat but nothing groundbreaking, then he promotes to defeating all powerful emperors before finally graduating by defeating dragon Cthulhu. The villains grow in power and so we can assume that Chrom grows too. 

[Jotari]

16 hours ago, Whisky said:

Actually people with regular weapons can kill dragons. In the Scouring, the dragons said that they were losing because the humans outnumbered them. I don’t remember the exact dialogue, if the Divine Weapons were created before or after the War Dragons, but I do remember that the humans outnumbering the dragons is specifically cited as a reason why the dragons were losing and needed to create the War Dragons.

A normal weapon will normally have little effect on a dragon, but if there are enough people attacking the dragon, it would be possible for them to take it down eventually. A lot of them would probably die in the process though.

Edit: A lot more humans were involved in the Scouring than just the eight heroes. And most of them wouldn’t have Divine Weapons.

Not that I necessarily disagree, but Wyrmslayers were used during the scouring and taking stats into account magic being more effective than weapons against dragons seems a reasonable assumption.

[Flere210]

8 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

About the Alm and Ike thing. I think that what Alm lacks compared to Ike is a solid measuring stick. 

The Black Knight is actually a really good measuring stick for Ike's journey. He starts out as an unstoppable force when compared to Ike but he has to flee for Caineghis and he fights Tibarn inconclusively two times. This means that he's likely on the same level as Tibarn, and that he's weaker than the Lion King but stronger than just about everyone else. After Ike's first victory he isn't the equal of the Black Knight but that the knight recognizes Ike as Greil's promising successor is a sign of how far he came. Later when he does surpass the Black Knight we can safely assume Ike is stronger than Tibarn too. That Caineghis recognizes Ike as a fun sparring partner further suggest Ike is now on the Lion king's level as the strongest Beorc sparring with the strongest Laguz. 

Alm doesn't have this. He has a rival in Berkut but Berkut has no feats and is kind of a pathetic loser. Alm struggles against Berkut the first time but in the end every time they fought and whatever help Berkut has it always ends in a victory for Alm. We don't even seem to see Berkut defeat people that aren't Alm to hype him up. And the way Echoes is written means there aren't many villains that can serve as a benchmark. Most of the bosses are nobodies. Alm doesn't really have the achievement on par with defeating the Black Knight, killing the four Fang or Grado generals. The lack of a villainous presence for Alm to overcome means he lacks real feats until facing Duma. Though I do think he is one of the stronger lords, its just that the lack of villains doesn't make this as clear as it should logically be. 

What defines the power of the heroes is usually the power of the villains they defeat. The Fates royals also suffers from this to some extend. Growing stronger than team Garon isn't exactly a feat in their favor because its barely a feat at all. In a sense this goes for the Three Houses cast too. The Slitherers aren't impressive villains so defeating them doesn't feel impressive for the heroes. Meanwhile the fights between the classmates has narrative weight but they are all very young when the war starts and the older generation doesn't come off as particularly strong. 

One strong point of Awakening is that we can see Chrom's growth through the villains he defeat. Killing Gangrel the mad clown is a fine feat but nothing groundbreaking, then he promotes to defeating all powerful emperors before finally graduating by defeating dragon Cthulhu. The villains grow in power and so we can assume that Chrom grows too. 

Imo a messuring stick for Alm may be camus. He was likely the strongest man back in Arkaneia, hyped up to be comparable to Anri himself(overblown, as Anri is FE Saitama). He is the one guy i can't see being defeated cleanly by Marth or Hardin. Alm can take on him whit a smaller force that lack a character as hyped as Hardin. 

I think for fates the best measuring stick for Corrin is the duel where he best Ryoma, as i find the alternative wincon of that map to be disonhourable and i can't see Ryoma doing what he did after the fight if he was canonically defeated that way. And that's whit a relatively weak Yato, the Omega version would boost them even further. Or even when berserk dragon Corrin defeat the masked guy that defested Ryoma and totally isn't Sumeragi. Because i seriously doubt that Berserk Dragon is Corrin peak. Anankos also is kinda impressive, but not much as Ashera or Grima, at least not unless you take some interdimensional bullshit in Heirs of Fates at face value.

 

Also, i think Thales was kinda impressive in part 1. He just failed to deliver when we actually fought him.

[Jotari]

34 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Imo a messuring stick for Alm may be camus. He was likely the strongest man back in Arkaneia, hyped up to be comparable to Anri himself(overblown, as Anri is FE Saitama). He is the one guy i can't see being defeated cleanly by Marth or Hardin. Alm can take on him whit a smaller force that lack a character as hyped as Hardin. 

I think for fates the best measuring stick for Corrin is the duel where he best Ryoma, as i find the alternative wincon of that map to be disonhourable and i can't see Ryoma doing what he did after the fight if he was canonically defeated that way. And that's whit a relatively weak Yato, the Omega version would boost them even further. Or even when berserk dragon Corrin defeat the masked guy that defested Ryoma and totally isn't Sumeragi. Because i seriously doubt that Berserk Dragon is Corrin peak. Anankos also is kinda impressive, but not much as Ashera or Grima, at least not unless you take some interdimensional bullshit in Heirs of Fates at face value.

 

Also, i think Thales was kinda impressive in part 1. He just failed to deliver when we actually fought him.

Canonically though it's more likely Alm never fought Zeke at all, unless you believe Tatiana just isn't a character that ever appears in canon. The relative size of the forces between Marth and Alm should also be treated as an unknown.

[Flere210]

Canonically Corrin never beat Ryoma either has it does not happen in revelation, but it is still something that a version of the character, wich is equal or weaker than the canon version, can do.

[Jotari]

4 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Canonically Corrin never beat Ryoma either has it does not happen in revelation, but it is still something that a version of the character, wich is equal or weaker than the canon version, can do.

Hmm, I;d be more inclined to say Fates has three canons than to suggest Birthright and Conquest aren't canonical.

[Tryhard]

my fictional character could beat up your fictional character

[vanguard333]

23 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

About the Alm and Ike thing. I think that what Alm lacks compared to Ike is a solid measuring stick. 

The Black Knight is actually a really good measuring stick for Ike's journey. He starts out as an unstoppable force when compared to Ike but he has to flee for Caineghis and he fights Tibarn inconclusively two times. This means that he's likely on the same level as Tibarn, and that he's weaker than the Lion King but stronger than just about everyone else. After Ike's first victory he isn't the equal of the Black Knight but that the knight recognizes Ike as Greil's promising successor is a sign of how far he came. Later when he does surpass the Black Knight we can safely assume Ike is stronger than Tibarn too. That Caineghis recognizes Ike as a fun sparring partner further suggest Ike is now on the Lion king's level as the strongest Beorc sparring with the strongest Laguz. 

Alm doesn't have this. He has a rival in Berkut but Berkut has no feats and is kind of a pathetic loser. Alm struggles against Berkut the first time but in the end every time they fought and whatever help Berkut has it always ends in a victory for Alm. We don't even seem to see Berkut defeat people that aren't Alm to hype him up. And the way Echoes is written means there aren't many villains that can serve as a benchmark. Most of the bosses are nobodies. Alm doesn't really have the achievement on par with defeating the Black Knight, killing the four Fang or Grado generals. The lack of a villainous presence for Alm to overcome means he lacks real feats until facing Duma. Though I do think he is one of the stronger lords, its just that the lack of villains doesn't make this as clear as it should logically be. 

What defines the power of the heroes is usually the power of the villains they defeat. The Fates royals also suffers from this to some extend. Growing stronger than team Garon isn't exactly a feat in their favor because its barely a feat at all. In a sense this goes for the Three Houses cast too. The Slitherers aren't impressive villains so defeating them doesn't feel impressive for the heroes. Meanwhile the fights between the classmates has narrative weight but they are all very young when the war starts and the older generation doesn't come off as particularly strong. 

This. Very much this.

Although, it is unclear how strong the Black Knight is compared to Caineghis; yes, he does flee when he hears Caineghis approaching, but he sounds more annoyed by the inconvenience to his goal than anything else:

Quote

Black Knight: “I won’t check my hand again. Give me what I am after. If you offer no more resistance, I will leave your child alive.”

Greil: “S-stop…You will not touch my son!”

(A roar is shouted in the distance)

Black Knight: “…What is this? The king of beasts? How bothersome. Do I retreat? Eh?”

Ike: “You’re not going anywhere.”

Black Knight: “Tell me, is the son as stupid as the father?”

Greil: “…Nng…Ahh…”

Ike: “Father!”

Greil: “Ike, stop. There’s no way you can win.”

Ike: “But…”

Greil: “Ike!”

Black Knight: “You will not continue? Then I will finish…”

(Another roar, louder this time)

Black Knight: “…So close. Now is not the time for me to deal with him. Hmph. You get to keep your head today, boy.”

Later on in Path of Radiance, when he first encounters Ranulf, he's actually excited by the opportunity to fight him; hoping it will give him a better sense of how strong Caineghis is (implying that he has no idea how powerful Caineghis is compared to him). 

Quote

Black Knight: Ha ha! So you were the one traveling with the beast king, eh? Interesting. By measuring his aide's strength, I will naturally learn more of the king's true power.

Ranulf: Hate to tell you this, but my king is not to be measured against the likes of me. He is far beyond that.

Black Knight: All the better. Now then, let us begin.

 

[darkblade2814]

On 1/27/2020 at 8:59 AM, Jotari said:

Hmm, I;d be more inclined to say Fates has three canons than to suggest Birthright and Conquest aren't canonical.

sorry to break it to you but IS confirmed Revelatuions is the canon route

[trainer_derp]

This may or may not be a hot take, but IMO while Ike is most likely the strongest lord, he's not overwhelmingly superior to the rest. If the likes of Alm, Seliph, and Ephraim are "A-tier", then Ike at his best is an A+. This means that, ignoring invincibility, all the "A-tier" lords would at worst put up a very strong fight against Zelgius/BK. 

Purely subjective, but:

A+: Ike

A : Alm, Seliph, Hector, Ephraim, Chrom, Corrin (Rev), Byleth, Edelgard, Dimitri

A-: Marth (post-FE12), Sigurd, Eliwood, Lucina, Xander, Ryoma, Corrin (CQ)

B+: Leif, Roy (w/BB), Lyn, Eirika, Claude, Corrin (BR)

B : above average fighters who don't have a legendary weapon

B-: Micaiah (w/o Yune)

C : your average soldier

C-: Roy (w/o BB)

TBH, with a few exceptions, I don't think the power gap between the lords is all that big. Anyone from A or A- would give Ike a good fight (and potentially even defeat him), so the three A-tiers are more or less interchangeable. Same for the B-tiers. 

Edited January 28, 2020 by trainer_derp

[Deathcon]

I find Alm and Ike pretty comparable, though I think Byleth can beat both them due to having magic and divine pulse with only Alm having anything near a Divine Pulse with Mila's Turnwheel and not having magic also the awakened Sword of the Creator may be stronger than the Flachion as it can cut a mountain in half!, especially since this reddit post shows how strong Camus/Zeke/Sirius is and says he is one of the strongest characters canon wise and could perhaps go toe to toe with the Death Knight. He even has evidence! Be mindful this was posted a year ago.

http://reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/84f5yr/fire_emblem_power_level_analysis_camus/

[vanguard333]

46 minutes ago, Deathcon said:

I find Alm and Ike pretty comparable, though I think Byleth can beat both them due to having magic and divine pulse with only Alm having anything near a Divine Pulse with Mila's Turnwheel and not having magic also the awakened Sword of the Creator may be stronger than the Flachion as it can cut a mountain in half!, especially since this reddit post shows how strong Camus/Zeke/Sirius is and says he is one of the strongest characters canon wise and could perhaps go toe to toe with the Death Knight. He even has evidence! Be mindful this was posted a year ago.

http://reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/84f5yr/fire_emblem_power_level_analysis_camus/

Divine Pulse only gives Byleth two tries to beat Ike. If he fails the second time, then the failure is guaranteed. Granted; it's one more try than Ike would have, but still. 

The Sword of the Creator definitely gives Byleth more power than Ike, but it's very hard to tell what Byleth's skill level is. We get a clear sense of Ike's level of skill with a blade thanks to it being tied to his character arc. By contrast, we don't even know how Byleth compares to Jeralt: his own dad who taught him how to fight. 

[Flere210]

Go toe to toe? I think Camus would beat the Death Knight whitout even trying. 

[Alastor15243]

4 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Divine Pulse only gives Byleth two tries to beat Ike. If he fails the second time, then the failure is guaranteed. Granted; it's one more try than Ike would have, but still. 

The Sword of the Creator definitely gives Byleth more power than Ike, but it's very hard to tell what Byleth's skill level is. We get a clear sense of Ike's level of skill with a blade thanks to it being tied to his character arc. By contrast, we don't even know how Byleth compares to Jeralt: his own dad who taught him how to fight. 

We do know he's worse at swordfighting than Lucina is at the start of their respective games at least. But we don't know how much they both improve by in that time.