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Where does Byleth place on the canon ranking tier list of Lords?


Jotari
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1 hour ago, Icelerate said:

The quote I used was wrong. I meant to use this one. 

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Riev:
“Valter… You should stop playing around. If you don’t’ finish off Eirika’s forces swiftly… Her brother’s left the capital. He should be arriving here shortly. You don’t want to be fighting her still when he arrives. Trust me. We are equals here in Grado’s army. Would you like me to assist?”

Valter:
“All you need to do is vanish, you disgusting old man. Eirika is mine. I won’t let you have her. She is so strong, so beautiful… She’s the prey I’ve dreamed of.”

 

That quote makes more sense. It definitely implies a certain level of strength, but it is very vague. I have a hard time believing that pre-bracelet Erika could fight against someone like Valter.

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It's tough to reconcile that Valter thinks Eirika is all that strong, since in their only real meeting, an injured Seth and her are struggling to fight off three random bandits like 5 minutes later.

He might mean he thinks she's strong of will, and not necessarily physically strong... which uh, would definitely excite a sadist like Valter.

Edited by Slumber
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4 hours ago, Whisky said:

That quote makes more sense. It definitely implies a certain level of strength, but it is very vague. I have a hard time believing that pre-bracelet Erika could fight against someone like Valter.

Valter also implies that she is strong in a previous chapter so I don't have a hard time believing this.  

Spoiler

Valter:
“Gone already? I’ve sent a gift your way, Eirika, but I trust you can handle it. You’re my girl after all. I need you to be strong for me… Heh heh… ha ha ha ha ha!”

 

21 minutes ago, Slumber said:

It's tough to reconcile that Valter thinks Eirika is all that strong, since in their only real meeting, an injured Seth and her are struggling to fight off three random bandits like 5 minutes later.

He might mean he thinks she's strong of will, and not necessarily physically strong... which uh, would definitely excite a sadist like Valter.

If your argument is that he only saw her fight the bandits. That is false because he wasn't there to see her fight them. The fact that he reacts differently before the prologue and afterwards shows he's changed his mind about Eirika now that she has shown to be strong. 

Furthermore, you claim that Valter can't think Eirika is strong just because he didn't see her but then you contradict yourself by claiming Valter finds her strong due to her willpower because it's not like he saw her will power if he didn't see her fight. 

Valter must have heard stories of Eirika's prowess on the battlefield after the prologue but before his encounter with her to come to the conclusion that she is indeed strong. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Eirika is one of the lords that progress the most in power, 

Exactly! At the beginning of the game, Valter thought of her as a toy but during the middle of the story, he thought highly of her abilities. Then she gets a massive powerup and is able to impress the Demon King with her abilities. She later on defeats Lyon possessed by the Demon King and helped defeat the Demon King. 

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Valter wants her to put up a fight and not just roll over and die, but I think he's still highly confident in is ability to defeat her. He denies Riev's offer to help him. He doesn't seem to think that he needs help. His only statement is very vague. He calls her "strong". How Strong? Physically strong or strong willed? We would need Valter to specify what he means. He doesn't say 'Erika will be a tough fight for me' or 'I don't know if I can win'. He just says she's "strong". He could still think that he's stronger, and in gameplay he's a hell of a lot stronger before she gets the bracelet. This is his battle quote with her:

Valter: Mmm... I've been waiting for you, Eirika!
Eirika: Who are you?
Valter: Have you forgotten? We met once at Castle Renais. No? Look closely, Eirika. Do you not remember the face of he who will master you?
Eirika: Wha–!?
Valter: Yes, resist. It’s much more fun for me that way. Come, Eirika. I should like to tame you.
Eirika: I am here on a mission. One that I swore to my brother I would fulfill. I will not be stopped by the likes of you!

He says that it's more fun if she resists, but he's very confident that he can win.

 

Edit: I'm not denying that she becomes very strong after getting the bracelet and her legendary weapon. And I'm not denying that she has grown between the beginning of the game and when you fight Valter. But I don't think that she has grown enough to be as strong as Valter until after getting the bracelet.

Edited by Whisky
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39 minutes ago, Whisky said:

Valter wants her to put up a fight and not just roll over and die, but I think he's still highly confident in is ability to defeat her. He denies Riev's offer to help him. He doesn't seem to think that he needs help. His only statement is very vague. He calls her "strong". How Strong? Physically strong or strong willed? We would need Valter to specify what he means. He doesn't say 'Erika will be a tough fight for me' or 'I don't know if I can win'. He just says she's "strong". He could still think that he's stronger, and in gameplay he's a hell of a lot stronger before she gets the bracelet. This is his battle quote with her:

Valter: Mmm... I've been waiting for you, Eirika!
Eirika: Who are you?
Valter: Have you forgotten? We met once at Castle Renais. No? Look closely, Eirika. Do you not remember the face of he who will master you?
Eirika: Wha–!?
Valter: Yes, resist. It’s much more fun for me that way. Come, Eirika. I should like to tame you.
Eirika: I am here on a mission. One that I swore to my brother I would fulfill. I will not be stopped by the likes of you!

He says that it's more fun if she resists, but he's very confident that he can win.

 

Edit: I'm not denying that she becomes very strong after getting the bracelet and her legendary weapon. And I'm not denying that she has grown between the beginning of the game and when you fight Valter. But I don't think that she has grown enough to be as strong as Valter until after getting the bracelet.

Stick her in a wedding dress and then she can use bows to beat him. Well provided someone steals that Filli Shield.

(Maybe my meaning isnt clear here, but I'm saying it was silly that Erikia was chosen to introduce the Bride class in Awakening given it doesn't use her singular weapon type. The obvious character was, of course, Astrid).

Edited by Jotari
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1 hour ago, Whisky said:

Valter wants her to put up a fight and not just roll over and die, but I think he's still highly confident in is ability to defeat her. He denies Riev's offer to help him. He doesn't seem to think that he needs help. His only statement is very vague. He calls her "strong". How Strong? Physically strong or strong willed? We would need Valter to specify what he means. He doesn't say 'Erika will be a tough fight for me' or 'I don't know if I can win'. He just says she's "strong". He could still think that he's stronger, and in gameplay he's a hell of a lot stronger before she gets the bracelet. This is his battle quote with her:

Valter: Mmm... I've been waiting for you, Eirika!
Eirika: Who are you?
Valter: Have you forgotten? We met once at Castle Renais. No? Look closely, Eirika. Do you not remember the face of he who will master you?
Eirika: Wha–!?
Valter: Yes, resist. It’s much more fun for me that way. Come, Eirika. I should like to tame you.
Eirika: I am here on a mission. One that I swore to my brother I would fulfill. I will not be stopped by the likes of you!

He says that it's more fun if she resists, but he's very confident that he can win.

I'm definitely more in the "strong resistance, but not her own physical strength" camp.

Eirika's act of defying capture by Grado at every turn is strength. Grado is relentless in trying to get her, and she, not to crush Grado but to find her brother, marches directly into their freshly conquered and occupied Renais turf. She even makes to inside Grado's border proper at Renvall. This must be oh so annoying to Valter, the finest army in the world he works for can't catch a naive princess and her small troop.

Afterwards, her mission to Rausten-turned Carcino & Jehanna, is not a big military campaign, she doesn't test herself against the same supposed huge Grado army Ephraim does. Her mission is a more peaceful one not showcasing strength so much, and she likes peace anyhow.

Now, I do not claim that Eirika is a weakling and that Seth and others did all the work for her. I can buy that she might deal the final blow to Lyon or Formortiis. She, by virtue of being an FE lord, generally has to have some above-average measure of martial talent.

But on a shonen power tier list, she is probably one of the weaker lords, at least no stronger than say Marth, and like him, if you forced the emotions out of her she could prevail in a duel vs. a big baddy. Yet, just as I don't seriously believe in the Zephiel vs. Roy CG as reflective of the real thing (even if IS wanted us to believe that), so I think Eirika would need the power of friendship/"4 on 1 garbage" to prevail over someone like Valter.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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16 hours ago, Whisky said:

Valter wants her to put up a fight and not just roll over and die, but I think he's still highly confident in is ability to defeat her. He denies Riev's offer to help him. He doesn't seem to think that he needs help. His only statement is very vague. He calls her "strong". How Strong? Physically strong or strong willed? We would need Valter to specify what he means. He doesn't say 'Erika will be a tough fight for me' or 'I don't know if I can win'. He just says she's "strong". He could still think that he's stronger, and in gameplay he's a hell of a lot stronger before she gets the bracelet. This is his battle quote with her:

Valter: Mmm... I've been waiting for you, Eirika!
Eirika: Who are you?
Valter: Have you forgotten? We met once at Castle Renais. No? Look closely, Eirika. Do you not remember the face of he who will master you?
Eirika: Wha–!?
Valter: Yes, resist. It’s much more fun for me that way. Come, Eirika. I should like to tame you.
Eirika: I am here on a mission. One that I swore to my brother I would fulfill. I will not be stopped by the likes of you!

He says that it's more fun if she resists, but he's very confident that he can win.

 

Edit: I'm not denying that she becomes very strong after getting the bracelet and her legendary weapon. And I'm not denying that she has grown between the beginning of the game and when you fight Valter. But I don't think that she has grown enough to be as strong as Valter until after getting the bracelet.

Strength in general talks about how powerful one is in the context of a fictional story where power levels matter. That's the meaning that is assumed because it is the apparent meaning. None of the physical or mental strength nonsense as that is clearly not the apparent meaning. 

When the game wants to point out her willpower is strong, it says "her will is strong". Not "she is strong". 

Spoiler

An ominous wave of dark creatures washes over the continent… Eirika’s journey to find her brother, Ephraim, grows ever more perilous. Still, she presses on despite the danger. Her will is strong. The town of Serafew, located on the border of Renais and Grado. The people of both countries have long used the town as a meeting place. It stands as testimony to the friendship the two nations have shared these many years. Now, however, Serafew is teeming with Grado troops.

 

Him being confident about beating her doesn't mean she can't put up a good fight against him. Why would he have fun subduing her if she was no match for him?

Edited by Icelerate
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@Whisky I just started another playthrough of Three Houses, and, after the prologue, Edelgard describes Jeralt as, "Former captain of the Knights of Seiros. Oft praised as the strongest knight to ever live." So, we have at least one person saying that he at least has the reputation of being the greatest fighter in Fodlan. 

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2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

@Whisky I just started another playthrough of Three Houses, and, after the prologue, Edelgard describes Jeralt as, "Former captain of the Knights of Seiros. Oft praised as the strongest knight to ever live." So, we have at least one person saying that he at least has the reputation of being the greatest fighter in Fodlan. 

Sadly his feats pale in comparison to RD!Ike, Zelgius and Greil. I wonder if Dimitri post time skip is a stronger fighter than Jeralt. 

Edited by Icelerate
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To me, the fact that Byleth cannot die due to Divine Pulse and is immortal in all but Crimson Flower alone would place them very high on the list, if not the top.

You could only truly defeat Byleth if you had even stronger power over time and space, that can overpower Sothis to prevent Byleth from manipulating the time

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2 hours ago, Icelerate said:

Sadly his feats pale in comparison to RD!Ike, Zelgius and Greil. I wonder if Dimitri post time skip is a stronger fighter than Jeralt. 

Oh, I agree. If the best knight Fodlan ever produced pales in comparison to Ike, Zelgius and Greil, I wonder how Byleth compares in terms of skill level?

 

1 hour ago, Timlugia said:

To me, the fact that Byleth cannot die due to Divine Pulse and is immortal in all but Crimson Flower alone would place them very high on the list, if not the top.

You could only truly defeat Byleth if you had even stronger power over time and space, that can overpower Sothis to prevent Byleth from manipulating the time

The thing is, according to the story, each time Byleth "dies", he has only one chance to prevent it using Divine Pulse; if it happens again the second time, it cannot be undone. Granted, this is one more chance than anyone else would get, but still; it does have its limits. 

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3 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Oh, I agree. If the best knight Fodlan ever produced pales in comparison to Ike, Zelgius and Greil, I wonder how Byleth compares in terms of skill level?

 

The thing is, according to the story, each time Byleth "dies", he has only one chance to prevent it using Divine Pulse; if it happens again the second time, it cannot be undone. Granted, this is one more chance than anyone else would get, but still; it does have its limits. 

What are you basing this off of? The fact that Thales stopped that one attack that one time?

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5 hours ago, Jotari said:

What are you basing this off of? The fact that Thales stopped that one attack that one time?

I'm basing this off of what Sothis said about using the Divine Pulse to change the course of events, which, yes, was something she said to explain that event. 

Suppose, during a hypothetical duel with Ike, Ike managed to stab Byleth right in the chest. He can use Divine Pulse to go back and undo it, but if the same stab happens again, then, by what Sothis said, it can't be undone no matter how many times he tries it. 

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58 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I'm basing this off of what Sothis said about using the Divine Pulse to change the course of events, which, yes, was something she said to explain that event. 

Suppose, during a hypothetical duel with Ike, Ike managed to stab Byleth right in the chest. He can use Divine Pulse to go back and undo it, but if the same stab happens again, then, by what Sothis said, it can't be undone no matter how many times he tries it. 

If the stab is part of the nebulous predestined events then they can't. But if the stab hit Byleth because their second attempt at blocking wasn't the best laid out strategy, then they can go back and try for as many times as they have divine pulses. Sothis's line was basically "Please don't say why didn't Byleth use timepulse when ever anything happens in the story." So unless you think Ike's victory is literally part of some preordained order of the universe (which considering this is just power speculation, so it's not), it's not relevant.

Edited by Jotari
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On 2/14/2020 at 9:14 AM, Icelerate said:

Strength in general talks about how powerful one is in the context of a fictional story where power levels matter. That's the meaning that is assumed because it is the apparent meaning. None of the physical or mental strength nonsense as that is clearly not the apparent meaning. 

When the game wants to point out her willpower is strong, it says "her will is strong". Not "she is strong". 

  Reveal hidden contents

An ominous wave of dark creatures washes over the continent… Eirika’s journey to find her brother, Ephraim, grows ever more perilous. Still, she presses on despite the danger. Her will is strong. The town of Serafew, located on the border of Renais and Grado. The people of both countries have long used the town as a meeting place. It stands as testimony to the friendship the two nations have shared these many years. Now, however, Serafew is teeming with Grado troops.

 

Him being confident about beating her doesn't mean she can't put up a good fight against him. Why would he have fun subduing her if she was no match for him?

I still don’t agree on the translation but I’ll accept it. So Valter calls Erika “strong”. That doesn’t say anything about her being almost as strong as him. Strong is relative. Valter is sadistic. He wants is prey to resist and put up a fight against him. He probably has a certain degree of respect for her strength. But he’s still Valter, The Moon Stone. There isn’t any evidence to suggest that Erika is as strong as Valter. She can be strong, and he could still be stronger.

Plus I think the gameplay more or less contradicts her being as strong as him, but I don’t know if you care about that.

 

On 2/15/2020 at 4:13 PM, vanguard333 said:

@Whisky I just started another playthrough of Three Houses, and, after the prologue, Edelgard describes Jeralt as, "Former captain of the Knights of Seiros. Oft praised as the strongest knight to ever live." So, we have at least one person saying that he at least has the reputation of being the greatest fighter in Fodlan. 

Alright. I guess he is meant to be among the strongest people on the continent. I would say that the game has a gameplay/story segregation problem here because he doesn’t really display the level of power that he’s hyped up to be, however, he could very well be past his prime or just rusty.

 

On 2/15/2020 at 7:18 PM, Timlugia said:

To me, the fact that Byleth cannot die due to Divine Pulse and is immortal in all but Crimson Flower alone would place them very high on the list, if not the top.

You could only truly defeat Byleth if you had even stronger power over time and space, that can overpower Sothis to prevent Byleth from manipulating the time

Divine Pulse is certainly a huge plus for Byleth but it is not an end all argument like you seem to be saying. He needs to be at least at close enough level to his opponent for multiple chances to actually make the difference. If he is fighting an opponent too much stronger than himself, he could just keep losing every time he uses Divine Pulse, and he can’t use it an unlimited number of times. Being immortal doesn’t mean anything here. Immortal isn’t the same thing as invincible.

 

On 2/16/2020 at 6:07 AM, vanguard333 said:

I'm basing this off of what Sothis said about using the Divine Pulse to change the course of events, which, yes, was something she said to explain that event. 

Suppose, during a hypothetical duel with Ike, Ike managed to stab Byleth right in the chest. He can use Divine Pulse to go back and undo it, but if the same stab happens again, then, by what Sothis said, it can't be undone no matter how many times he tries it. 

I agree with Jotari here. Byleth can use Divine Pulse another chance and he could change things. But it is possible for him to still get defeated again if his opponent is too much stronger than him.

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As much as i hate Byleth as a character, i have to say he/she is probably the best unit in FE history, beating out characters like Seth and Sigurd. As a Wyvern, he/she is just so dang powerful that not even my other lords (who are also really good when compared to lords in other games) don't even come close to what Byleth can do.

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