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2 hours ago, Burklight said:

The flaw from my experience against using someone like Ignatz is that your plan requires getting Ignatz to level 20ish, which in my run was a serious struggle. Either he gets str screwed and you cant make him a passable combat unit, in which case he may not get enough levels for the charm, or he does end up getting enough str to be helpful, in which case he's better as a sniper. Also he has strength in authority, which makes him one of the better candidates in golden deer to try and rush A rank for retribution (Indech Sword Fighters iirc). I think Lorenz makes a lot more sense, as he's less likely to get totally screwed on the leveling aspect, as well as a strength in riding for an easier +1 move.

Might be luck or build or just different expectations but Ignatz has worked out really well for me so far. 
 

Early game he had an easy time getting levels because I was using him so often to chip with Curved Shot. Then he got Break Shot which helped him contribute even more. Also his hit+20 meant he was getting a decent amount of kills since if there was an enemy I wanted to make sure would absolutely 100% die, Ignatz’s high hit rate would be the solution.

His strength base isn’t terrible, but the 35% growth is pretty icky. I think he has a few more work arounds than other low strength units like Ingrid, who you just have to watch be mediocre for pretty large portions of the game. 
First obvious fix was getting Death Blow, and sending him into fighter—>brigand would also give ~1 extra strength Due to growths (doesn’t seem like a lot but w Ignatz it’s really a game of inches). Second was that because his hit rate was higher and because he wasn’t as fast as Claude or Leonie who might have to front line often (and use training weapons), I could give him a lot of heavier weapons like the Steel Bow(+). Next, because he has a boon in authority that meant he could use better gambits than the rest of the units and get a few extra points of strength there. Then, I also gave him Raphael as a guard adjutant. Not everyone is going to do this because a lot of people want to use Raphael as an actual unit, but Raphael as an adjutant boosted his strength by 2 pre timeskip and raised his hit rate, allowing him to use even heavier and less accurate bows. 
 

Finally, once he gets to Sniper the main goal should be rushing Ignatz towards Hunter’s Volley which will dramatically help his damage output. Plus now he has his faire which will help him as well. 
 

In the late game he’s been absolutely insane as a unit. With Hunter’s Volley + Death Blow + Bowfaire x 2 + Raphael that’s an extra 38 damage. Even with a lower strength stat, if you give him a Silver Bow and let him go for it then you’ll have him doing 50+ dmg x 2. It’s insanely good

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3 hours ago, hdawgsizzle said:

It's supposed to be very difficult to reach S+ weapon ranks with units, yet I’m about to take on Ch. 16 and Ignatz is already there with very little investment. 

I'm curious, how often do you do Aux Battles? Or do you use the DLC Sauna at all? Because while I disagree with a great many things Shadow Mir says, this is one thing I find to be accurate.

It takes 3500 Wexp for a unit to go from D -> S+. Even if you assumed that Ignatz was instructed and got a perfect every week (42 Wexp) and had it as one of his goals for weekly training (24 Wexp), that'd be 66 Bow Exp a week. 

By chapter 16, 33 weeks of training would have passed. That gives a total of 2278 Bow Exp, or about 242 away from S Rank. 

Now while you do gain Bow Exp from combat, it's only +3 Bow Exp plus whatever the class bonus they're in. So even if you assumed that Ignatz was a Sniper all game long and earned +6 Bow Exp every fight, it'd still take 221 battles to reach S+ rank.

So in short, it is rather difficult for units to hit S+ without either a substantial amount of Aux battles, broken weapon Grinding, or Sauna usage. 

Edited by LoneRecon400
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26 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

I'm curious, how often do you do Aux Battles? Or do you use the DLC Sauna at all? Because while I disagree with a great many things Shadow Mir says, this is one thing I find to be accurate.

It takes 3500 Wexp for a unit to go from D -> S+. Even if you assumed that Ignatz was instructed and got a perfect every week (42 Wexp) and had it as one of his goals for weekly training (24 Wexp), that'd be 66 Bow Exp a week. 

By chapter 16, 33 weeks of training would have passed. That gives a total of 2278 Bow Exp, or about 242 away from S Rank. 

Now while you do gain Bow Exp from combat, it's only +3 Bow Exp plus whatever the class bonus they're in. So even if you assumed that Ignatz was a Sniper all game long and earned +6 Bow Exp every fight, it'd still take 221 battles to reach S+ rank.

So in short, it is rather difficult for units to hit S+ without either a substantial amount of Aux battles, broken weapon Grinding, or Sauna usage. 

Aux Battles mostly once a month (twice in the early game when you can only tutor ~half your units). I'm doing a No NG+, No Online, No DLC, all recruits, all Paralogues run, so no I'm not using the Sauna. And I haven't done any broken weapon grinding this run either. I told a bit of a white lie - Ignatz is <100 wexp from hitting S+, and I'm pretty sure he's going to hit it during Ch 16. He's definitely NOT 242 away from S rank, he hit S rank a while ago. I switched his goals over to Bows only a while ago since he hit A rank authority very quickly, and besides the D+ in axes to get Death Blow, I haven't needed to train anything else with him. 

This month I did do two weeks of battling since I didn't need to tutor that many units super aggressively this month, and this gives me the opportunity to get Caspar some adjutant levels/increase his Lance rank so that he can get Knightkneeler and kill the Death Knight in the upcoming Paralogue. I gave Ignatz the Knowledge gem for some of these Aux battles since he's so close to leveling up his Bow rank, though these aux battles have gone so quickly that's only ~3-4 rounds of combat each.

42 Wexp per week seems like a pretty conservative estimate - with just the Bow+1 statue (I think it's an early statue get from Indech), that would equate to four Good tutoring sessions and one Perfect one. Ignatz has a boon in Bows, and the boon means that he gets Greats and Perfects all the time

Also since I did 10 paralogues before timeskip and Hilda and Cyril's paralogue since, that could be a factor. Paralogues are so much longer than aux battles so that's a lot of extra rounds of combat

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1 hour ago, hdawgsizzle said:

I've been doing Aux Battles mostly once a month, often twice in the early game and some other instances. I've also been doing every Paralogue that's available since I am recruiting everyone. 

42 Wexp per week also seems like a pretty conservative estimate. Ignatz has a boon in Bows, and the boon means that he gets Greats and Perfects all the time. 

Participating in that many Paralogues and Aux Battles is most certainly going to skew a unit's Skill Experience. If we assumed that Ignatz fought 4 battles in 25 Aux Battles as a Archer, that's 500 Bow Exp right there that's not even including the amount obtained from Paralogues. 

Having a boon in the skill does not increase the chance of obtaining perfects or greats, only the amount obtained from them. And while they're some weeks where Ignatz gets multiple prefects in a row, there's going to be some where he doesn't get any at all. 

Plus, what I described previously is assuming Ignatz is being tutored in Bows at every opportunity with +1 Bow Statue Bonus. That's not going to be case with the amount of Aux battles being done, let alone how he needs Axe Training for Death Blow, Authority training for better battalions, or how they're may be some other units in need of instruction. 

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1 minute ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Participating in that many Paralogues and Aux Battles is most certainly going to skew a unit's Skill Experience. If we assumed that Ignatz fought 4 battles in 25 Aux Battles as a Archer, that's 500 Bow Exp right there that's not even including the amount obtained from Paralogues. 

Having a boon in the skill does not increase the chance of obtaining perfects or greats, only the amount obtained from them. And while they're some weeks where Ignatz gets multiple prefects in a row, there's going to be some where he doesn't get any at all. So if anything, I'd say that's a over estimate. 

Whoa whoa whoa dude.... if you're going to quote me you better QUOTE me - don't change what I said. I said that participated in 2 aux battles per month in the earliest chapters (through ~chapter 6). Don't know where you're pulling 25 Aux battles from. Seems arbitrary. It's been ~2 aux battles total per month up until timeskip. (I'd battle twice a month when the professor level was low and I couldn't tutor as many folks per week, and then when my professor level went up, I stopped doing twice a month, but then the game allows you to battle twice on the battle days). I spent most of the battling time in the middle of the game doing paralogues, and those are a lot longer turn count wise, and would allow my units to get a lot more WEXP. Now, post timeskip, I'm able to battle 3 times on the battle days, and I still only elect to battle once per month, but this month I did twice because I'm trying to train Caspar (and honestly Explore days post timeskip are super boring) and a lot of my units have already hit all of the weapon levels they need to hit for this run. I did an exceptional amount of pre-planning before starting this run and so it has been incredibly efficient and I've been hitting a lot of ranks way earlier than I've been able to in earlier runs. This time I made a massive google doc with all of the units' birthdays and I've been keeping track of support points and such so i'll be able to take advantage of the free boost to motivation from support convos. I've been a lot more aggressive about switching a unit's goals when I think they'll level up some of their ranks naturally. 

The way you phrased it makes it seem as though I've done an additional 25 battles on top of whatever is "normal" for a run and that's why Ignatz's bow Rank is way higher than your calculations. That's just blatantly false. As far as target levels and such go, my units are still below the "Suggested Level" on main missions. I'm not exceptionally overlevelled or anything... 

Perhaps the source I had was wrong, but I did read online that having a boon in a skill makes it more likely to get greats and perfects and having a bane in a skill makes it more likely to get bads. It seems to be pretty in line with what I've seen so far. From my experience it is exceptionally rare to go a week without a single great or perfect, especially if you are tutoring a boon, so I'd still say that 42 WEXP per week is a conservative estimate since it so rarely will ever be less than that. Plus, you only added 24 to that to get 66 total WEXP per week, and I switched his goals to Bows only a while ago - it's been at least a few months of 36 per week from Bows. I've also only tutored Ignatz ~once every other week, so it's not as if I'm super favoring him - Claude's Hit A+ Bows, A+ Flying, A Authority and that's all I need from him, Lysithea is at S Reason, A Faith, A+ Authority, Leonie's at A+ Bows, B+ Authority, A Riding... I'm just a few ranks off of where I want to be with everyone for the most part. 

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6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Personally, I'd like my dancer to be able to get the needed charm through level ups and the dance lesson alone (and to be female, because I don't give a whit about pretty much all the males in this game). The tea parties the likes of Lorenz, Ignatz, or (insert low charm unit here) would need are more resources than I care to dole out to that end.

I've found that your prospective Dancer wants to have enough Charm to win the Heron Cup, but beyond that, they don't really care. Making a super-high-Charm unit your Dancer is arguably a waste - they want their high Charm for powerful offensive gambits (and good avoid against enemy gambits). Your Dancer, optimally, should just be dancing - gambit avoid is nice, but in most cases they should be out of range of enemies who could gambit them.

Also preferring female units to be your dancer, while a valid personal preference (play the game however you want), doesn't really have anything to do with a potential dancer's objective viability or utility.

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8 hours ago, hdawgsizzle said:

Might be luck or build or just different expectations but Ignatz has worked out really well for me so far. 
 

Early game he had an easy time getting levels because I was using him so often to chip with Curved Shot. Then he got Break Shot which helped him contribute even more. Also his hit+20 meant he was getting a decent amount of kills since if there was an enemy I wanted to make sure would absolutely 100% die, Ignatz’s high hit rate would be the solution.

His strength base isn’t terrible, but the 35% growth is pretty icky. I think he has a few more work arounds than other low strength units like Ingrid, who you just have to watch be mediocre for pretty large portions of the game. 
First obvious fix was getting Death Blow, and sending him into fighter—>brigand would also give ~1 extra strength Due to growths (doesn’t seem like a lot but w Ignatz it’s really a game of inches). Second was that because his hit rate was higher and because he wasn’t as fast as Claude or Leonie who might have to front line often (and use training weapons), I could give him a lot of heavier weapons like the Steel Bow(+). Next, because he has a boon in authority that meant he could use better gambits than the rest of the units and get a few extra points of strength there. Then, I also gave him Raphael as a guard adjutant. Not everyone is going to do this because a lot of people want to use Raphael as an actual unit, but Raphael as an adjutant boosted his strength by 2 pre timeskip and raised his hit rate, allowing him to use even heavier and less accurate bows. 
 

Finally, once he gets to Sniper the main goal should be rushing Ignatz towards Hunter’s Volley which will dramatically help his damage output. Plus now he has his faire which will help him as well. 
 

In the late game he’s been absolutely insane as a unit. With Hunter’s Volley + Death Blow + Bowfaire x 2 + Raphael that’s an extra 38 damage. Even with a lower strength stat, if you give him a Silver Bow and let him go for it then you’ll have him doing 50+ dmg x 2. It’s insanely good

You're kind of making my point for me. If you have to go brigand for deathblow and extra strength to reliably do damage to keep getting levels, why would you then turn around and make him a dancer after going to all that trouble? You either put in the effort to make him a usable unit, or you almost immediately bench him. Lorenz is a much better case because he falls off more gradually if you kinda ignore him because you're planning on making him a dancer.

My initial post was more or less agreeing that you can pretty easily make anyone a dancer, but a decentish combat unit who can spam utility gambits probably shouldn't be a dancer if you've got him rolling already.

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12 minutes ago, Burklight said:

You're kind of making my point for me. If you have to go brigand for deathblow and extra strength to reliably do damage to keep getting levels, why would you then turn around and make him a dancer after going to all that trouble? You either put in the effort to make him a usable unit, or you almost immediately bench him. Lorenz is a much better case because he falls off more gradually if you kinda ignore him because you're planning on making him a dancer.

My initial post was more or less agreeing that you can pretty easily make anyone a dancer, but a decentish combat unit who can spam utility gambits probably shouldn't be a dancer if you've got him rolling already.

Yea I definitely see what you're saying. I guess I don't particularly factor in that as "investment" in my mind because it's become so second nature for me - if a unit is a physical unit I'm making them a Brigand for Death Blow no matter what, if they are a magical unit, they have to be a mage to get Fiendish Blow. Even Marianne, my dancer this run has Fiendish Blow and she'll use it approximately twice in the entire run. Hell, I sent Hilda through Brigand and Archer and Pegasus Knight because I really think she'd fall off without Death Blow and Darting Blow and Hit+20. Also I'm definitely the type of person to pick which unit is going to be the dancer before I start the run, and I know that's not the way everyone plays - a lot of people like to assess who's performing the worst and make that unit their dancer, and in that case I'd see why what I've said isn't relevant to how you play

I do slightly contest classifying Ignatz as "decentish" for all of the reasons I brought up in the last post though. He's great - maybe not my best unit on my team, but certainly above a bunch of those losers I used on my BE and BL runs. But people either seem to think he's great or be married to the idea that he's mediocre. I'm not sure I'm going to change anyone's mind about him

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I think you're underestimating the amount of grinding you're doing. I do all paralogues and auxiliary quest battles, and none of my units hit S+ in any skill by the end of the game (all routes). One or two might have made it if I didn't go for master classes, but it would have been too late to be significant.

Snipers and Bow Knights are good units by default. Hunter's Volley + Leicester Mercs/Goneril Valks + crit ring + Killer Bow+ give Snipers 70+ crit rate on most enemies in the game. Bow Knights have great move and are good for any chapters where the power of Hunter's Volley is not necessary. It doesn't take a whole lot for anyone to be a good Sniper/Bow Knight. That being said, it's not surprising that Ignatz does well as a Sniper.

His early game is pretty solid. Hit+20 is nice when everyone else can't hit the broad side of a barn.

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8 hours ago, hdawgsizzle said:

Yea I definitely see what you're saying. I guess I don't particularly factor in that as "investment" in my mind because it's become so second nature for me - if a unit is a physical unit I'm making them a Brigand for Death Blow no matter what, if they are a magical unit, they have to be a mage to get Fiendish Blow. Even Marianne, my dancer this run has Fiendish Blow and she'll use it approximately twice in the entire run. Hell, I sent Hilda through Brigand and Archer and Pegasus Knight because I really think she'd fall off without Death Blow and Darting Blow and Hit+20. Also I'm definitely the type of person to pick which unit is going to be the dancer before I start the run, and I know that's not the way everyone plays - a lot of people like to assess who's performing the worst and make that unit their dancer, and in that case I'd see why what I've said isn't relevant to how you play

I do slightly contest classifying Ignatz as "decentish" for all of the reasons I brought up in the last post though. He's great - maybe not my best unit on my team, but certainly above a bunch of those losers I used on my BE and BL runs. But people either seem to think he's great or be married to the idea that he's mediocre. I'm not sure I'm going to change anyone's mind about him

When I say "decentish," I'm basically saying he's going to be able to do serious PH damage with hunter's volley eventually, and he's going to have access to excellent utility battalions. Absolute crap enemy phase, and you need to keep him protected. So he'll almost never have a dead turn, but he's also never going to be your MVP. If I had to rank all the golden deer units, he'd be somewhere near the middle.

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2 hours ago, msterforks said:

I think you're underestimating the amount of grinding you're doing. I do all paralogues and auxiliary quest battles, and none of my units hit S+ in any skill by the end of the game (all routes). One or two might have made it if I didn't go for master classes, but it would have been too late to be significant.

RIP to your S+ ranks but I’m different

Seriously I don’t know how so many of y’all get such a thrill from coming online and trying to pick holes in the way another person plays the game.

Let me make this VERY clear: I use aux battles once per month. Looking at the calendar, I elected to battle twice during months 6 and 1. I did not do any battles at all during month 10. If you did all paralogues like you claim you did, you’d need to battle twice a month in at least one of the months too. Post timeskip I battle once per month except the most recent month. My units are still under the suggested level, so it’s not as if I’ve received some massive boost from extra battles. If you want to look at online stats, I battle less often than other players. Sorry if my completely average number of battles has tainted my run for you. Should I forgo aux battles the rest of my playthrough? Should I start over and do a blindfolded, upside-down, behind my back run? Seriously if you pay attention to a unit’s ranks it’s not super hard to get to S+, especially if it’s a single weapon unit like a Sniper. The game gives you two knowledge gems... use them. In the context of the original argument, I don’t know what y’all’s fascination with the amount of battles I’m doing is supposed to prove. I said that Ignatz was about to hit S+ in bows and the unfounded accusation was that I MUST be battling too much or doing something wrong, but if I were to battle twice in a month that would mean that I’d be unable to fill up Ignatz’s motivation one of those weeks and wouldn’t be able to tutor him in back to back weeks. The amount of wexp gained from a week of battling would essentially be negated by the inability to tutor him. Even then, I’m not tutoring Ignatz every week. I’ve been pretty good about cycling through all of my units. Here’s what happened: the other dude on the forum made a terrible back of the envelope calculation on how much wexp gets accumulated per week, and so the expectations for where Ignatz’s bow rank “should be” are wildly off base. That’s it. 
 

When I played CF and AM I had a hard time hitting any S+ ranks so I made major adjustments this time around to how I was tutoring and what I was doing with units’ goals and I’ve seen better results. Last play through I made some naive mistakes like trying to get my Wyverns to S+ in both axes and flying and stuff like that... That’s not feasible. This time I’m not tutoring any unit in any rank they don’t need. I haven’t needed to tutor Claude in the past three chapters at all because he had already hit A+ bows and was at A flying and so I just let his flying level up naturally. I’ve forgone Master classes on a lot of units (Ignatz, Sylvain, Marianne, Mercedes), I’ve been better about using things like choir practice and group tasks, and I’ve been a lot more aggressive with switching a unit’s goals to single focus. This play through has been an incredibly well oiled machine. What I’m doing isn’t witchcraft or breaking the game...

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41 minutes ago, hdawgsizzle said:

RIP to your S+ ranks but I’m different

Seriously I don’t know how so many of y’all get such a thrill from coming online and trying to pick holes in the way another person plays the game.

Let me make this VERY clear: I use aux battles once per month. Looking at the calendar, I elected to battle twice during months 6 and 1. I did not do any battles at all during month 10. If you did all paralogues like you claim you did, you’d need to battle twice a month in at least one of the months too. Post timeskip I battle once per month except the most recent month. My units are still under the suggested level, so it’s not as if I’ve received some massive boost from extra battles. If you want to look at online stats, I battle less often than other players. Sorry if my completely average number of battles has tainted my run for you. Should I forgo aux battles the rest of my playthrough? Should I start over and do a blindfolded, upside-down, behind my back run? Seriously if you pay attention to a unit’s ranks it’s not super hard to get to S+, especially if it’s a single weapon unit like a Sniper. The game gives you two knowledge gems... use them. In the context of the original argument, I don’t know what y’all’s fascination with the amount of battles I’m doing is supposed to prove. I said that Ignatz was about to hit S+ in bows and the unfounded accusation was that I MUST be battling too much or doing something wrong, but if I were to battle twice in a month that would mean that I’d be unable to fill up Ignatz’s motivation one of those weeks and wouldn’t be able to tutor him in back to back weeks. The amount of wexp gained from a week of battling would essentially be negated by the inability to tutor him. Even then, I’m not tutoring Ignatz every week. I’ve been pretty good about cycling through all of my units. Here’s what happened: the other dude on the forum made a terrible back of the envelope calculation on how much wexp gets accumulated per week, and so the expectations for where Ignatz’s bow rank “should be” are wildly off base. That’s it. 
 

When I played CF and AM I had a hard time hitting any S+ ranks so I made major adjustments this time around to how I was tutoring and what I was doing with units’ goals and I’ve seen better results. Last play through I made some naive mistakes like trying to get my Wyverns to S+ in both axes and flying and stuff like that... That’s not feasible. This time I’m not tutoring any unit in any rank they don’t need. I haven’t needed to tutor Claude in the past three chapters at all because he had already hit A+ bows and was at A flying and so I just let his flying level up naturally. I’ve forgone Master classes on a lot of units (Ignatz, Sylvain, Marianne, Mercedes), I’ve been better about using things like choir practice and group tasks, and I’ve been a lot more aggressive with switching a unit’s goals to single focus. This play through has been an incredibly well oiled machine. What I’m doing isn’t witchcraft or breaking the game...

I was not claiming that it's impossible to reach S+ on a unit nor was am I saying that you're playing the game wrong by doing so. I was just trying to see how you got Ignatz to that point since it really differs from my Personal Experience and numbers I provided didn't seem to accurately reflect your experience.

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40 minutes ago, hdawgsizzle said:

Seriously if you pay attention to a unit’s ranks it’s not super hard to get to S+, especially if it’s a single weapon unit like a Sniper.

I strongly disagree. It most likely ain't gonna happen unless you go completely out of your way to make it happen, even with Knowledge Gem use. Not that I consider it worth it, because I don't.

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5 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I strongly disagree. It most likely ain't gonna happen unless you go completely out of your way to make it happen, even with Knowledge Gem use. Not that I consider it worth it, because I don't.

Ignatz is about to get it and Felix hasn’t even promoted to War Master yet... if you consider Quick Riposte a feasible goal you should (at least in certain cases) consider S+ a feasible goal

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54 minutes ago, hdawgsizzle said:

RIP to your S+ ranks but I’m different

Seriously I don’t know how so many of y’all get such a thrill from coming online and trying to pick holes in the way another person plays the game.

You're free to play the game how you want, and do what you think is fun. However, every Fire Emblem player's experience is different, and as such, we need some sort of standard if we're making comparisons. In general, grinding is not allowed in these standards because once units are all trained up to their max potential, they start looking very similar and are difficult to compare. Even with 1 aux battle a month, any unit can hit their S+/A+/other benchmarks very easily. Where does that leave Ignatz then? 

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21 minutes ago, msterforks said:

You're free to play the game how you want, and do what you think is fun. However, every Fire Emblem player's experience is different, and as such, we need some sort of standard if we're making comparisons. In general, grinding is not allowed in these standards because once units are all trained up to their max potential, they start looking very similar and are difficult to compare. Even with 1 aux battle a month, any unit can hit their S+/A+/other benchmarks very easily. Where does that leave Ignatz then? 

Dude what the hell are you even talking about? The discussion was about if hitting S+ was viable, not Ignatz’s viability as a unit. He’s being used as an example because he’s my unit closest to hitting S+ but I could use Lysithea who is also close and the conversation is the same. The only mention about S+ with regards to viability is that I said it’s easier to get with Ignatz because I made him a Sniper and so I only need to focus on his bow rank. I said double Bowfaire would be nice because of Hunter’s Volley and I stand by that. That’s not me arguing for Ignatz in particular - it’s saying that low strength units can still excel as Snipers. The same holds for any other unit you want to make a Sniper/single weapon class: it’s easier to get to S+ with them. Swordmasters, Warriors, Grapplers, whatever...

I wouldn’t refer to battling once a month as “grinding” when the vast majority of players do that and then some. If you want to have a serious discussion about how viable it is to hit S+ ranks then maybe you should put it in the context of how people actually play the game and not some arbitrarily sterile no aux battle restriction. The game gives you one free day every month without a tutoring session after it... it’s very much encouraging you to use that week to battle. The vast majority of players take that opportunity. You even claimed to do all the paralogues so YOU took that opportunity to battle too. Now if your saying that it’s “super EZ” to get units to hit their benchmarks when you actually battle with them and I told you I did every paralogue and it’s been easy to hit benchmarks then what the hell are you even trying to argue about?

And cut the pedantic “you’re welcome to play how you think is fun but...” garbage. Your argument needs to make sense before you can say things like that. 

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1 hour ago, hdawgsizzle said:

Ignatz is about to get it and Felix hasn’t even promoted to War Master yet... if you consider Quick Riposte a feasible goal you should (at least in certain cases) consider S+ a feasible goal

Well, I don't, because to be blunt, it involves more effort than I can consider reasonable. And I don't consider mastering Master tier classes feasible either (at least unless you're willing to repeatedly let yourself get attacked without countering). On the run I finished the other day, only two units iirc managed to get the mastery skill for their master class - and one of those was Lysithea.

On 2/12/2020 at 11:41 AM, Burklight said:

He also hasn't beat the game yet

News flash: that's no longer true.

On 2/12/2020 at 11:29 AM, hdawgsizzle said:

Did you not pay attention??

Ignatz and Lorenz would both end up with 15 charm through level ups at the time of the dance competition. They don’t NEED the tea parties at all. The tea parties are just a failsafe (as they are with EVERY unit that you want to make a dancer). 

Plus even if they get charm screwed AND you can’t spare one measly activity point, you can also plant white flowers, which I know you’ll say is “using up a week of gardening” or whatever but you need the flowers anyways and white is good on GD because they give Anemones which Hilda likes. But the point stands: you have a LOT of options for IF Lorenz or Ignatz gets charm screwed which is already unlikely in the first place!

It honestly just seems like you’re very unfamiliar with the game and the resources that are available. Earlier you were saying that it’s impossible to reach S+ weapon ranks with units and I’m about to take on Ch. 16 and Ignatz is already there with very little investment. Lysithea is almost there as well

That assumes they get there, which if they don't grow well, might not be feasible. On the other hand, if they grow too well, it might be a waste. I found Lorenz to lag behind my other units even before the month of the dance competition came along.

RE: S+ rank, mentioning Lysithea doesn't really help your case, considering she has accelerated skill growth.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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17 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:
On 2/12/2020 at 1:41 PM, Burklight said:

He also hasn't beat the game yet

News flash: that's no longer true.

I like how you correct the part about having not beaten the game, but ignore the parts that suggest you haven't played maddening mode and can't/don't read. A+ as usual.

inb4 "Why in the seven hells would I invest that much time in playing a mode that takes more time and investment and time than posting nonsense on a form with zero point of reference to any of the things I'm pretending to be an expert on?!?"

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12 minutes ago, Burklight said:

I like how you correct the part about having not beaten the game, but ignore the parts that suggest you haven't played maddening mode and can't/don't read. A+ as usual.

inb4 "Why in the seven hells would I invest that much time in playing a mode that takes more time and investment and time than posting nonsense on a form with zero point of reference to any of the things I'm pretending to be an expert on?!?"

I don't bother to correct the part about not having played maddening mode because it'd make no sense for me to deny it. Even you should have been able to come to that conclusion on your own. Or is it hard for you to come to such a simple conclusion because you're blinded by rage?

Edited by Shadow Mir
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8 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I don't bother to correct the part about not having played maddening mode because it'd make no sense for me to deny it. Even you should have been able to come to that conclusion on your own.

I'm going to go against my better instincts and humor you here with an actual argument. Given that you haven't played maddening, you wouldn't know that weapon ranks are significantly easier to unlock than in normal or hard, simply because you end up going through so many more rounds of combat on everyone. So the guy who's talking about maddening mode S+ ranks not being a problem that you're arguing with stating that it takes too long and can't be done. Yeah, that comes off as super ignorant, because what you're saying is basically true for NM and HM, but this topic is on MM, which you have zero frame of reference on. And yet you keep doubling down as though you're an expert.

I have no doubt you're going to cherry pick this and claim you know better than everyone who has actual experience, or say something about how you play the game differently, or some other bit of nonsense about how what you're saying is an exception. I'm just pointing out that a tiny bit of humility from someone with absolutely no knowledge of the mode you're giving advice on would go a long way.

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You've played an aux battle? tainted game 0/10 you might as well be playing new game+

Personally, I don't think it's impossible: I got my Ignatz and Felix to an S without the two Knowledge Gems and did aux battles at roughly the same rate because I find grinding boring af. Didn't recruit everyone for every paralogue or play optimally at all: I imagine if I did put in the effort to do so with outlines and plans, I suspect it's perfectly doable with units who don't need to branch out into three-four different skills and you can easily streamline.

Not gonna be testing it out any time soon myself, though.

 

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2 hours ago, Burklight said:

I'm going to go against my better instincts and humor you here with an actual argument. Given that you haven't played maddening, you wouldn't know that weapon ranks are significantly easier to unlock than in normal or hard, simply because you end up going through so many more rounds of combat on everyone. So the guy who's talking about maddening mode S+ ranks not being a problem that you're arguing with stating that it takes too long and can't be done. Yeah, that comes off as super ignorant, because what you're saying is basically true for NM and HM, but this topic is on MM, which you have zero frame of reference on. And yet you keep doubling down as though you're an expert.

I have no doubt you're going to cherry pick this and claim you know better than everyone who has actual experience, or say something about how you play the game differently, or some other bit of nonsense about how what you're saying is an exception. I'm just pointing out that a tiny bit of humility from someone with absolutely no knowledge of the mode you're giving advice on would go a long way.

That’s simple logic. Even knowing that it takes more rounds of combat to down enemies and you overall see more combat rounds, which is as simple as watching someone else on YT, which I do for the sake of learning what I can do to give myself an advantage for when I do tackle it (which means I’d say your assessment about me having no knowledge is incorrect, especially since it implies that hands-on experience is the only way to learn about something), I don’t consider it very reasonable unless you either glue the Knowledge Gem onto someone instead of passing it around so multiple units can benefit and/or do auxiliary battles, which the OP admitted he did. He also admitted to recruiting everyone, which I would consider impractical as fuck on a non-NG+ run no thanks to Ferdinand. You might need to focus exclusively on one skill to the exclusion of everything else, which I do not find reasonable either. Logically speaking, I would consider it more feasible to just raise Authority and use a higher-end battalion instead, considering E to B authority takes about 1/3 the effort it would take to go from A+ to S+.

TL;DR version: I don’t think it’s impossible, but I most definitely think it’s an extremely impractical notion. Which is what I was telling the OP earlier.

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Use your Knowledge Gem on the units you intend to use and want to get an S+ rank in, you don't need (and probably shouldn't) use it on everyone. Using flowers to recruit everyone (not necessarily use them) for paralogues also is not that great of a chore: Ferdie is the only one that requires you to meet a stat/skill requirement.

Your "simple logic" isn't very good.

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33 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Use your Knowledge Gem on the units you intend to use and want to get an S+ rank in, you don't need (and probably shouldn't) use it on everyone. Using flowers to recruit everyone (not necessarily use them) for paralogues also is not that great of a chore: Ferdie is the only one that requires you to meet a stat/skill requirement.

Your "simple logic" isn't very good.

I guess it isn’t. But I don’t consider it worth it to go out of my way to recruit all the students out of the other houses. Caspar also has his B support locked until after the time skip, so that’s two students I have to recruit the hard way (Caspar requires Brawling, so he’s easier to recruit; that being said, if I’m leading the Black Eagles, it’s easier since I don’t have to worry about them). Also, the “simple logic” I was referring to was what Burklight brought up - looking at the playthroughs I saw, I know full well I can expect to have to mob an enemy with several units before killing them in pretty much all instances. Regarding the Knowledge Gems, I'd rather use them to reach certain skill benchmarks, notably getting increased magic range for mages.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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I mean you just talk to them and dump a bunch of flowers you naturally get from gardening onto them. It's not a huge investment or waste of time: it's literally just using what you're given.

forgot about Caspar but who cares about Caspar

Not sure if your assessment of a LP is really a good source, particularly because you still seriously make arguments like "Lorenz has bad base charm so he's a bad dancer" or "Ignatz has noodle arms so he's a bad unit".

Edited by Crysta
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