Which lords are morally grey?

[Alastor15243]

Claude is definitely morally grey. One thing I noticed is that when he beat Edelgard, he didn't dismantle her empire and give back the parts of the kingdom she took over. He had Byleth keep it and just rule it themselves, because that was more useful to his goals of "tearing down walls". It honestly suggests to me that he might have tried to do something similar to Edelgard if Edelgard doing it first didn't give him the opportunity to just let her do it and then steal it, giving her all the bad PR and him all the good PR and all the power.

I haven't played AM or SS yet though, so maybe he DOES try to take over the world in those routes.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Alastor15243

[omegaxis1]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Alm: Actively desires battle more than any other lord in the series (sans Dimitri).

Personally, I feel that the theme would have worked better if Alm was someone that was like that, but Celica helped him balance himself. Would go with the theme of Duma and Mila, with how they were unable to balance one another.

 

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Personally, I feel that the theme would have worked better if Alm was someone that was like that, but Celica helped him balance himself. Would go with the theme of Duma and Mila, with how they were unable to balance one another.

 

Based on some of his Awakening convos and his portrait in Gaiden (see my sig) and even making Walhart a descendant of Alm, I think that was what they were going for originally before the remake turned Alm into a perfect superman and made Celica practically useless.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Jotari

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Based on some of his Awakening convos and his portrait in Gaiden (see my sig) I think that was what they were going for originally before the remake turned Alm into a perfect superman and made Celica practically useless.

Yeah, Awakening Alm is kind of weird in hindsight. Shame, because I did like him.

[Slumber]

On 1/30/2020 at 8:07 PM, Jotari said:

Based on some of his Awakening convos and his portrait in Gaiden (see my sig) and even making Walhart a descendant of Alm, I think that was what they were going for originally before the remake turned Alm into a perfect superman and made Celica practically useless.

There were two readings of Alm you could get out of his like, 10 lines of dialogue in Gaiden:

• A well-intentioned, but violent and angry guy who believes violence IS a solution
• A goody-two-shoes lord like Marth and Eliwood

Awakening took the former route, Echoes went with the latter. It's a shame, because realizing he's the prince of Rigel could have been an eye-opening experience where he starts to realize he's just like his father and cousin, and try to change his ways. It would have possibly made for some interesting c h a r a c t e r d e v e l o p m e n t.

Edited February 1, 2020 by Slumber

[omegaxis1]

6 minutes ago, Slumber said:

There were two readings of Alm you could get out of his like, 10 lines of dialogue in Gaiden:

• A well-intentioned, but violent and angry guy who believes violence IS a solution
• A goody-two-shoes lord like Marth and Eliwood

Awakening took the former route, Echoes went with the latter. It's a shame, because realizing he's the prince of Rigel could have been an eye-opening experience where he starts to realize he's just like his father and cousin, and try to change his ways. It would have possibly made for some interesting c h a r a c t e r d e v e l o p m e n t.

And would give some meaning to his line to Celica saying that he needs her because he would otherwise lose himself. Which isn't even supported given how he just wins and wins and wins.

[Slumber]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

And would give some meaning to his line to Celica saying that he needs her because he would otherwise lose himself. Which isn't even supported given how he just wins and wins and wins.

I think it would have made Alm a more interesting foil to Berkut, too.

Having him and Berkut be mirrors in that way, instead of the way we got("NOBILITY RULES" vs. "COMMONERS CAN DO ANYTHING NOBLES CAN DO") would have made Berkut waaaay more interesting. Two hot-headed heirs to Rigel. One is the rightful son of the king who wants to destroy and violently overthrow him. The other is a cock, arrogant and aggressive noble who the king doesn't see as the legitimate heir. Once Alm is revealed to be the prince, he strives to be a better person for the sake of himself and the country, while Berkut breaks down and continues down his dark path.

You wouldn't even have to rewrite Berkut all that much, and he'd ultimately still come out better because of it.

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I think it would have made Alm a more interesting foil to Berkut, too.

Having him and Berkut be mirrors in that way, instead of the way we got("NOBILITY RULES" vs. "COMMONERS CAN DO ANYTHING NOBLES CAN DO") would have made Berkut waaaay more interesting. Two hot-headed heirs to Rigel. One is the rightful son of the king who wants to destroy and violently overthrow him. The other is a cock, arrogant and aggressive noble who the king doesn't see as the legitimate heir. Once Alm is revealed to be the prince, he strives to be a better person for the sake of himself and the country, while Berkut breaks down and continues down his dark path.

You wouldn't even have to rewrite Berkut all that much, and he'd ultimately still come out better because of it.

Can we take a moment to realize that the entire nobles vs commoner argument does not fit at all in there? Seriously, many of the themes in there actually works marvelously better in Three Houses.

[Slumber]

6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Can we take a moment to realize that the entire nobles vs commoner argument does not fit at all in there? Seriously, many of the themes in there actually works marvelously better in Three Houses.

It works much better in a game like PoR/Radiant Dawn, too. I still like the character writing in Echoes, and still think it gets some aspects of the "Commoners vs. nobles" theme right, since many of the cast still is a bunch of commoners compared to a lot of other FEs, but...

Alm and Celica are still ultimately your leads. You can't have a "Commoner vs. noble" theme when the nobles are still largely the ones leading the charge and winning the day. Like, that shouldn't be the major overarching theme of the game by any stretch of the imagination. And Alm certainly shouldn't be the example the game picks to show this. If you have Gray and Tobin in the back going "Commoners can kick a noble's ass just like anyone else", that would have been totally fine. That's a theme that fits those two characters, and a number of other Echoes characters. But not Alm.

If anything, overcoming your bloodline would have been a much better theme, given that Alm and Celica come from very dysfunctional bloodlines.

Edited February 1, 2020 by Slumber

[omegaxis1]

59 minutes ago, Slumber said:

It works much better in a game like PoR/Radiant Dawn, too. I still like the character writing in Echoes, and still think it gets some aspects of the "Commoners vs. nobles" theme right, since many of the cast still is a bunch of commoners compared to a lot of other FEs, but...

Alm and Celica are still ultimately your leads. You can't have a "Commoner vs. noble" theme when the nobles are still largely the ones leading the charge and winning the day. Like, that shouldn't be the major overarching theme of the game by any stretch of the imagination. If anything, overcoming your bloodline would have been a much better theme, given that Alm and Celica come from very dysfunctional bloodlines.

Three Houses might be the first time we play as more nobles than commoners even.

[Fire Brand]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Three Houses might be the first time we play as more nobles than commoners even.

Genealogy of the Holy War 

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Slumber said:

There were two readings of Alm you could get out of his like, 10 lines of dialogue in Gaiden:

• A well-intentioned, but violent and angry guy who believes violence IS a solution
• A goody-two-shoes lord like Marth and Eliwood

Awakening took the former route, Echoes went with the latter. It's a shame, because realizing he's the prince of Rigel could have been an eye-opening experience where he starts to realize he's just like his father and cousin, and try to change his ways. It would have possibly made for some interesting c h a r a c t e r d e v e l o p m e n t.

I agree with basically all this conversation had. It's not the inaccuracy of it that bothers me, it's the potential to have a way more interesting character over one we've already seen a half dozen times in the series already.

Edited February 2, 2020 by Jotari

[Book Bro]

Micaiah, Edelgard, and Dimitri are the only ones imo.

Corrin tried to be morally grey but the game went out of its way to pretend nothing he did was wrong, so eh.

I considered voting Sigurd but in the end I think he's way more good than questionable. It would be interesting to see a remake make him more complex. Alm pre remake would've fit this definition, but SoV didn't run with it.

Oh and Chrom could've been another but he suffers from a similar problem as Corrin. The game should've called him out more for essentially making excuses for his country's past injustices while condemning others for similar deeds. But in the end it turns out he's justified and Ylisse can do no wrong. 

Edited February 2, 2020 by Book Bro

[Ottservia]

On 2/1/2020 at 3:29 PM, Slumber said:

If anything, overcoming your bloodline would have been a much better theme, given that Alm and Celica come from very dysfunctional bloodlines.

A part of me kinda wants to say this was sort of what they were trying to go for but for some reason wrote the story in a way that leaned more towards the “noble vs commoner” theme. 

[starburst]

Cornflakes, she is definitely grey as Nohr Noble.

[trainer_derp]

Edelgard and Micaiah, definitely. which is why they're two of the most interesting lords imo

Conquest Corrin, to a lesser extent than the above two, because, you know, Fates.

 

Dimitri depends on whether you count mentally ill as morally gray. I'd lean towards no.

[Icelerate]

On 1/30/2020 at 8:57 PM, Jotari said:

I'm going to spin all of the lord's as morally grey. Here we go.

Marth: Launches a campaign to retake his homeland that reignites a war that was winding down creating far more casualties than was necessary. He also never treats with Medeus so everything he decides about the world under Doluna rule is based on hearsay and Racism.

Alm: Actively desires battle more than any other lord in the series (sans Dimitri).

Celica: Hypocrite.

Sigurd: "We come in peace, shoot to kill, shoot to kill."

Seliph: Blood inheritance in bollock, Julius is the rightful prince because he appears to be. Also has children in his army below acceptable fighting age.

Leif: His recklessness born from hate gets everyone killed.

Roy: Child soldiers.

Eliwood: Abandons his poor mother.

Hector: That soldier in Chapter 12 did nothing wrong!

Lyn: Carries massive hatred for honest privateers.

Erika: Outright sells the world out to demons for her waifu.

Ephraim: Has no value for the life of his soldiers. That three man's assault was a miracle.

Ike: Blood knight. Also child soldiers. And he launched a war of aggression when he knew the entire safety of the world was at risk.

Chrom: Takes way too much vacation time off when he's meant to be saving the world.

Robin: Is a literal incarnation of evil.

Corrin: Inconsistent loyalties.

Byleth: More inconsistent loyalties. I'll throw in a complete absence of any philosophy too. Basically a psychopath.

Claude, Dimitri and Edelgard. Don't even need to say anything about them.

Interesting post but you're missing Micaiah but I suppose it was too obvious. 

Celica was okay with a world full of fear and chaos. Sigurd helped Granvale conquer two countries instead of installing an independent friendly government in them.  

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Icelerate said:

Interesting post but you're missing Micaiah but I suppose it was too obvious. 

Celica was okay with a world full of fear and chaos. Sigurd helped Granvale conquer two countries instead of installing an independent friendly government in them.  

You're right. I did miss Micaiah. Most people would point to burning oil, but I judge her on the completely independent choice of RAISING HER OWN HUSBAND FROM CHILDHOOD!

[shanni20]

birthright corrin is a big "fuck you" to anyone who is adopted

that being said, the alternative is Conquest Corrin who literally gets away with genocide

 

anyway Sigurd conquers an entire continent I feel like we should talk about that

[Jotari]

44 minutes ago, forsettipatty said:

anyway Sigurd conquers an entire continent I feel like we should talk about that

It was only half a continent. And it was an accident! 

[shanni20]

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It was only half a continent. And it was an accident! 

This is exactly what Sigurd would say judging by his response to Shannan if he seizes after killing Ayra lmao

[Mylady]

I'm surprised that Robin doesn't have more votes. He is basically the villain of the original timeline 

[AnonymousSpeed]

14 hours ago, forsettipatty said:

birthright corrin is a big "fuck you" to anyone who is adopted

that being said, the alternative is Conquest Corrin who literally gets away with genocide

On that same note, Hans is a pretty indecent rejection of the idea that criminals can actually reform. Dang ol' Fates, man.

***

Most Fire Emblem games clearly don't want the lord to be perceived as morally grey. Most of them are bad people and bad characters but that's because the writing sucks. I haven't finished FE4 yet but it seems Sigurd and his reckless invasions are supposed to subvert this somewhat.

[Mylady]

On 2/10/2020 at 12:48 AM, forsettipatty said:

birthright corrin is a big "fuck you" to anyone who is adopted

that being said, the alternative is Conquest Corrin who literally gets away with genocide

 

anyway Sigurd conquers an entire continent I feel like we should talk about that

I'm adopted and I always chose Conquest because I think it's the more realistic choice despite being a fucked up scenario, but my family is not that messed. That said I think Corrin situation is a bit more complicated because of the political implications and  the situation of choosing between an adopted toxic family but with siblings that she loved, and strangers that she didn't care at all and she didn't know about their true nature. 

 

Sigurd is a well written but very flawed character and even his creator, Kaga recognises that he is dumb and naive.  I find his romance with Deirdre cringey and stupid as well. 

Edited February 11, 2020 by Mylady

[shanni20]

Welll the most fucked up part about Birthright is that Ryoma bitches so hard despite knowing by those god forsaken Mikoto letters that Corrin wasn't even their real sibling. Fates writing lmao

 

Anyway I like the idea of Sigurd and I think he's very good for his game, and his flaws make him a better character. The Deirdre romance is supposed to be stupid, I think