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Which lords are morally grey?

Which lords are morally grey?  

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  1. 1. Which lords are morally grey?



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On 2/10/2020 at 2:41 PM, Mylady said:

I'm surprised that Robin doesn't have more votes. He is basically the villain of the original timeline 

He gets possessed by Grima in the original timeline so he isn't responsible for everything bad that Grima did. He is obviously not in full control of his body and thus can't stop Grima from doing evil things.

I don't see what's morally grey about this.

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23 hours ago, Thunderstar said:

He gets possessed by Grima in the original timeline so he isn't responsible for everything bad that Grima did. He is obviously not in full control of his body and thus can't stop Grima from doing evil things.

I don't see what's morally grey about this.

I believe it's implied that Robin couldn't resist Grima in the original timeline because he was more inclined  to be corrupted by power and so was possessed by Grima, while in the game timeline Robin wins everything through the power of bonds, love and friendship.

 Robin is not an amnesiac in the original timeline as well. 

Edited by Mylady

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23 hours ago, Thunderstar said:

He gets possessed by Grima in the original timeline so he isn't responsible for everything bad that Grima did. He is obviously not in full control of his body and thus can't stop Grima from doing evil things.

I don't see what's morally grey about this.

As Mylady said, it’s implied Robin willingly gave himself to Grima in the original timeline. The reason is never really stated(Grima said it was always his fate to do so and hanging around with Chrom was more so a formality if anything) but I honestly like to think Robin did it out of pure despair cause he didn’t have amnesia then so he gave in thinking there was no other option but that’s just my theory.

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We ultimately know nothing about original timeline Robin, but one thing of note is that Chrom found Robin by accident in the Game's Timeline. Robin only got amnesia because Grima tried to force a merge too early. Yet despite the inciting incident of being found in a field, Robin still became friends with Chrom. Given this Robin had full memories of being raised as Satan, it seems likely the friendship was false to begin with and Robin was acting as a spy the entire time...for reasons.

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On 2/11/2020 at 5:51 PM, forsettipatty said:

Welll the most fucked up part about Birthright is that Ryoma bitches so hard despite knowing by those god forsaken Mikoto letters that Corrin wasn't even their real sibling. Fates writing lmao

 

Yeah that really didn't reflect well on Ryoma. It made him come off as a scumbag. 

That said I don't hold it against Ryoma because I strongly suspect that Corrin was still Ryoma's actual brother by the time this scene was written and programmed into the game. The idea that Corrin wasn't really related to the Hoshido so that you could safely bang them strikes me as something that happened very, very late in development. 

Edited by Etrurian emperor

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23 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Yeah that really didn't reflect well on Ryoma. It made him come off as a scumbag. 

That said I don't hold it against Ryoma because I strongly suspect that Corrin was still Ryoma's actual brother by the time this scene was written and programmed into the game. The idea that Corrin wasn't really related to the Hoshido so that you could safely bang them strikes me as something that happened very, very late in development. 

Agreed. They literally invalidated the entire premise of Fates just so you could S support the Hoshido siblings. At least with the Nohr siblings, they make it clear from the get go that they aren't blood related to you cuz you're from Hoshido, so you can at least marry them. The Hoshido siblings on the other hand are supposed to be your blood family, and the entire premise of Birthright is siding with your blood family and defending your homeland, hence the name Birthright, and yet they just throw that out the window with the reveal in their S supports just you can safely marry them. It's just so dumb.

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Corrin being able to marry the Hoshidian royals is yet another instance of Fates’s fanservice taking priority over artistic integrity and actual writing quality. I personally don’t think it’s that big of an issue but it certainly presents its problems in the narrative.

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What is even the point of that? A player playing blind has to be on board whit the blood related incest to even unluck the support conversation that tell you that they are not blood related. At that point, they are siscon and brocon that are more likely to be angry that they where cheated out of the incest rather than happy to be able to safely marry their sibling. 

The only people that benefit from that conversation are people that were on the fence about the incest and looked for spoilers.

They should have either made them non-srankable or commit fully to the incest. 

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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

We ultimately know nothing about original timeline Robin, but one thing of note is that Chrom found Robin by accident in the Game's Timeline. Robin only got amnesia because Grima tried to force a merge too early. Yet despite the inciting incident of being found in a field, Robin still became friends with Chrom. Given this Robin had full memories of being raised as Satan, it seems likely the friendship was false to begin with and Robin was acting as a spy the entire time...for reasons.

Actually, Robin's mother took him/her away from Validar as a baby, precisely because she wasn't on board with that idea. So no, the friendship was very likely to still be genuine in the original timeline.

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9 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Yeah that really didn't reflect well on Ryoma. It made him come off as a scumbag. 

That said I don't hold it against Ryoma because I strongly suspect that Corrin was still Ryoma's actual brother by the time this scene was written and programmed into the game. The idea that Corrin wasn't really related to the Hoshido so that you could safely bang them strikes me as something that happened very, very late in development. 

That's no doubt true, but I find it hard not to hold it against Ryoma when it's in the final version of the game. It's something they signed off on when they released the game that both those events were true. Ignoring the fact that he knows because, well because it just makes more sense, means you're ignoring an actual part of the game (granted a part relegated to S supports that the player could miss as Ryoma is as silent as any other route on Revelations too). If we just ignore everything we think is bad then Fates is suddenly a masterpiece.

8 hours ago, Gregster101 said:

Agreed. They literally invalidated the entire premise of Fates just so you could S support the Hoshido siblings. At least with the Nohr siblings, they make it clear from the get go that they aren't blood related to you cuz you're from Hoshido, so you can at least marry them. The Hoshido siblings on the other hand are supposed to be your blood family, and the entire premise of Birthright is siding with your blood family and defending your homeland, hence the name Birthright, and yet they just throw that out the window with the reveal in their S supports just you can safely marry them. It's just so dumb.

IMO marrying the Nohrian siblings is worse even if the Hoshidons were blood related. Single generation of sibling incest doesn't have a massive chance of birth defects, but marrying someone who you actually grew up with as a family member would result in an unbalanced relationship. 

7 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Actually, Robin's mother took him/her away from Validar as a baby, precisely because she wasn't on board with that idea. So no, the friendship was very likely to still be genuine in the original timeline.

I do vaguely recall something of that. Why does Lucina's Robin kill Chrom then? And how do the two even meet?

Edited by Jotari

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5 hours ago, Jotari said:

That's no doubt true, but I find it hard not to hold it against Ryoma when it's in the final version of the game. It's something they signed off on when they released the game that both those events were true. Ignoring the fact that he knows because, well because it just makes more sense, means you're ignoring an actual part of the game (granted a part relegated to S supports that the player could miss as Ryoma is as silent as any other route on Revelations too). If we just ignore everything we think is bad then Fates is suddenly a masterpiece.

I guess I feel poor Ryoma is the victim here. He's taking a hit so we can all bang our red haired sisters and husbando brothers.The hero Fates deserved but really, really didn't need. 

To some extend I always go softer on characters who came off terribly because the writing team massively failed them, rather than being terrible on their own merits. 

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6 hours ago, Jotari said:

I do vaguely recall something of that. Why does Lucina's Robin kill Chrom then? And how do the two even meet?

I think the most plausible reason is that, without the amnesia, Robin likely told them stuff about him/her self, like the "I was born to be the vessel of the fell dragon" bit. This meant that Frederick was more justified in his suspicions of Robin, which likely led to some persistence friction between Robin and the Shepherds. So while Robin may have still becomes friends with Chrom, get married and stuff, the bonds between Robin and the group as a whole weren't strong enough to shake off Validar's control attempt, so it succeeds in the original timeline and thus gets possessed by Grima. In the new timeline, with the amnesia, there wasn't much reasons for others to suspect Robin of anything (outside Frederick just doing his job), so s/he's more approachable. This, stronger bonds are formed that help Robin fight off the control.

Of course, it also helps that Validar's magic wasn't as strong in the new timeline, since Robin, having "dreamed" the events of the original timeline, knew beforehand to plot with the "pretending to be dead" Basilio to not bring the gemstones so Validar wouldn't be able to use them. Then again, the subject of bonds is still brought up, as Validar mocks the very subject; and the chapter's title is "Invisible Ties", so they still played a hand, I'd bet.

As for how they met... well, considering Grima's attempt to possess Robin happens shortly before Chrom, Lissa, and Frederick find him/her lying on the field... likely happened the same way. Just, without Robin lying on the ground. Simply met each while walking.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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19 hours ago, Jotari said:

IMO marrying the Nohrian siblings is worse even if the Hoshidons were blood related. Single generation of sibling incest doesn't have a massive chance of birth defects, but marrying someone who you actually grew up with as a family member would result in an unbalanced relationship. 

Personally I just don’t think Corrin should be able to marry any of their siblings. I wouldn’t call it an outright contradiction but it certainly muddles the familial trust theme the game has going. Fates’s fanservice really is too much at times.

 

As for the original awakening timeline, well it isn’t too far of a stretch they simply met under similar circumstances only this time Robin isn’t sleeping on the floor. The reason for why Robin joined Chrom in the first place is certainly up for debate but I suppose it wouldn’t be too Farfetch’d to say that he bumped into them by sheer coincidence one day and was roped into the shepherds by Chrom’s insistence. Seeing as how in awakening they met shortly after Grima’s failed possession, it isn’t too far of a stretch to say Robin was already nearby when it happened. What is he was doing or why he was there is another debate entirely though.

Edited by Ottservia

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8 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Personally I just don’t think Corrin should be able to marry any of their siblings. I wouldn’t call it an outright contradiction but it certainly muddles the familial trust theme the game has going. Fates’s fanservice really is too much at times.

 

As for the original awakening timeline, well it isn’t too far of a stretch they simply met under similar circumstances only this time Robin isn’t sleeping on the floor. The reason for why Robin joined Chrom in the first place is certainly up for debate but I suppose it wouldn’t be too Farfetch’d to say that he bumped into them by sheer coincidence one day and was roped into the shepherds by Chrom’s insistence. Seeing as how in awakening they met shortly after Grima’s failed possession, it isn’t too far of a stretch to say Robin was already nearby when it happened. What is he was doing or why he was there is another debate entirely though.

I wouldn't say Robin was probably in the area, I'd say they were definitely in the area given the timeline is unchanged until Grima went back (well, actually until Laurent went back, but I doubt that butterfly effect is of any consideration). However, the difference of amnesia, well it makes a difference. Robin without amnesia has a history, somewhere to go, maybe even a place to live. Chrom just taking a random stranger into his ranks is kind of weird. While Chrom helping a random stranger who literally has no other options, that's, well still a bit weird for royalty, but significantly less weird than "Hey, I just met you. Be my best friend!" "Well I'm part of a satanic cult hell bent on destroying your bloodline, but okay!" All that is to say Robin has significantly less reason to need to join Chrom (unless intentionally intending to hurt him) and Chrom has less reason to bring Robin into his inner circle without amnesia being a factor.

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On 2/13/2020 at 4:57 AM, Jotari said:

IMO marrying the Nohrian siblings is worse even if the Hoshidons were blood related

Actually the hoshidans shouldn't even be an option due to the fact that they are related by MARRIAGE!!!

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39 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I wouldn't say Robin was probably in the area, I'd say they were definitely in the area given the timeline is unchanged until Grima went back (well, actually until Laurent went back, but I doubt that butterfly effect is of any consideration). However, the difference of amnesia, well it makes a difference. Robin without amnesia has a history, somewhere to go, maybe even a place to live. Chrom just taking a random stranger into his ranks is kind of weird. While Chrom helping a random stranger who literally has no other options, that's, well still a bit weird for royalty, but significantly less weird than "Hey, I just met you. Be my best friend!" "Well I'm part of a satanic cult hell bent on destroying your bloodline, but okay!" All that is to say Robin has significantly less reason to need to join Chrom (unless intentionally intending to hurt him) and Chrom has less reason to bring Robin into his inner circle without amnesia being a factor.

Thing is though I doubt Robin even knew much about his true heritage cause it is stated that his mom took him from his crib and he likely lived a mostly sheltered life in hiding. I doubt his mother ever wanted to tell him that he was supposed to be a vessel for some kind of evil dragon god. She likely never told him. As to how Chrom and Robin wound up together well it could be for a number of reasons. Perhaps Robin was just sort of wandering and wound up there when bandits attacked. He defended himself. Chrom saw his talent and decided to recruit him. That’s all baseless speculation but it’s a possibility 

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How many times has that Fates point been rehashed? I tire of it. It's the same thing every time.

 

...Moral greyness doesn't matter to me besides being an avenue to make someone possibly more interesting.

And, a certain kind of mundane greyness I want to see probably will ever get into FE. Namely, a lord who uses deadly force to put down a rebellion of violent, but starving, famine-suffering peasants, because the rule of law must prevail. Meanwhile, the lord aggressively negotiates with local merchants to sell grain to the government at a below market value price, which the government will later distribute to the starving peasants for free once they've been quelled.

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1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

Thing is though I doubt Robin even knew much about his true heritage cause it is stated that his mom took him from his crib and he likely lived a mostly sheltered life in hiding. I doubt his mother ever wanted to tell him that he was supposed to be a vessel for some kind of evil dragon god. She likely never told him. As to how Chrom and Robin wound up together well it could be for a number of reasons. Perhaps Robin was just sort of wandering and wound up there when bandits attacked. He defended himself. Chrom saw his talent and decided to recruit him. That’s all baseless speculation but it’s a possibility 

Thing is, we don't know, but it's bound to be quite different from what we see in the main game and it will mean Robin is a different character.

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22 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Thing is, we don't know, but it's bound to be quite different from what we see in the main game and it will mean Robin is a different character.

I doubt Robin would be that different. The largest difference is that he’d be a lot less trusting and far more cynical. A little more closed off if you will. He’d also be a lot less naive and friendly. Other than that though, everything else about his character remains the same(love of books, a knack for strategy, terrible chef, bad handwriting, etc.) honestly I peg original timeline Robin as an introvert

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