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Von tries to rebalance the 3H class system (WIP)


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So, yeah...  This has been a long time in coming ever since I got Three Houses.  These are my as of yet incomplete ideas for rebalancing Three Houses's class system.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mOaogEEV8IxV-MKTBHFEzkbXNmrBSxdYuRECBcBK-kM/edit?usp=sharing

General changes so far:

  • A larger number of classes are more flexible in their recommendations.  I feel the Fighter and Monk classes' thing of only needing to meet one of multiple possible requirements for a 100% pass rate was sorely underutilized and restricted room for experimentation too much.  Those classes' Skill Level Bonuses have been adjusted to reflect this.
  • New classes (Lancer, Sentinel, Baron) have been added whose further information I have yet to figure out.
  • War Master is now called Master of Arms; Gremory is now called Archsage.
  • Dark Knight and Holy Knight have been merged into Mage Knight to further address the relative overabundance of mounted classes in the Master tier.

Feel free to offer some constructive critiques below.  I'll probably address Class Abilities and Arts next before finally moving on to stats and growth rates.

EDITS:

  • (1/25/2020) Undecided fields are now blank so that people don't get confused like Shanty Pete did.
Edited by Von Ithipathachai
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40 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

A larger number of classes are more flexible in their recommendations.  I feel the Fighter and Monk classes' thing of only needing to meet one of multiple possible requirements for a 100% pass rate was sorely underutilized and restricted room for experimentation too much.  Those classes' Skill Level Bonuses have been adjusted to reflect this.

I particularly like how every tier offered a certain "total" to skill bonuses - 2 in Beginner, 4 in Advanced, etc. Thus making it so Swordmaster gives a much bigger boost in just swords, whereas Assassin gets Swords and Bows, etc. The current system is totally imbalanced in favor of units with movement types and/or multiple weapons.

I like the varied requirement options on Intermediate classes, but I'm not sold on Advanced and Master classes. If I can get into Fortress Knight without ever picking up an Axe, why do I get Axefaire?

44 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

New classes (Lancer, Sentinel, Baron) have been added whose further information I have yet to figure out.

These all sound very good. We got basically no Lance Infantry beyond Soldier and Dimitri. And Armored magic-users have seemed under-utilized.

45 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

War Master is now called Master of Arms; Gremory is now called Archsage.

Archsage is fine, but I'm a no-go on Master of Arms. War Master was the one Master class that required (and specialized in) Brawling, and now that's been taken away. IMO the reqs should stay as-is, but there should be some off-setting (i.e. a unit with A+ Axes and B+ Brawling has 100% pass rate, as does B Axes and S Brawling, etc.).

48 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

Dark Knight and Holy Knight have been merged into Mage Knight to further address the relative overabundance of mounted classes in the Master tier.

Again, not really a fan. The glut of horses in Master tier is fine; the game finally recognizes that being on a horse is a strength in its own right. Plus, the new version is just Dark Knight renamed, with no White Tomefaire (a not-that-great ability that can still be abused with Seraphim or attempted Nosfertanking).

Just my thoughts, I like what you did with the skill rate boosts, and with the new classes (that aren't attempting to replace old ones). Curious to see where this goes!

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3 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I like the varied requirement options on Intermediate classes, but I'm not sold on Advanced and Master classes. If I can get into Fortress Knight without ever picking up an Axe, why do I get Axefaire?

Again, I'm still working out Abilities.  Maybe I should remove that information for now.

4 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Archsage is fine, but I'm a no-go on Master of Arms. War Master was the one Master class that required (and specialized in) Brawling, and now that's been taken away. IMO the reqs should stay as-is, but there should be some off-setting (i.e. a unit with A+ Axes and B+ Brawling has 100% pass rate, as does B Axes and S Brawling, etc.).

I did think about making Brawling the one constant recommendation, but I was not aware of that detail about War Master being the only Master class requiring it in the vanilla class system.  I'll see what can be done about that.

6 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Again, not really a fan. The glut of horses in Master tier is fine; the game finally recognizes that being on a horse is a strength in its own right. Plus, the new version is just Dark Knight renamed, with no White Tomefaire (a not-that-great ability that can still be abused with Seraphim or attempted Nosfertanking).

Again, haven't gotten around to changing Skills yet.  Mage Knight will probably have Black and White Tomefaire, but not Dark Tomefaire.

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Removing the gender lock would increase the unbalance a lot, because guys are the best theorical abusers of pegasus knight and girls are the best theorical abusers of war master. Like, Raphael, i repeat, Raphael, can easily get 30 effective speed while attacking just by going pegasus knight/wyvern rider/wyvern lord. 

Varying the weapon requirement is again an unbalancing move because it open up other abuses, in particular the painless transition from pegasus knight to wyvern lord. The only way i can see to avert the WL meta being even more overwhelming is if the other classes get skills so broken they make maddening a joke. 

Edited by Flere210
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29 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Removing the gender lock would increase the unbalance a lot, because guys are the best theorical abusers of pegasus knight and girls are the best theorical abusers of war master. Like, Raphael, i repeat, Raphael, can easily get 30 effective speed while attacking just by going pegasus knight/wyvern rider/wyvern lord.

I had some mild concerns of gender-lock removal increasing unbalance (e.g. Dark Bishop Lysithea), but I'm not entirely sure how what you describe works.  Could you explain some more?

30 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Varying the weapon requirement is again an unbalancing move because it open up other abuses, in particular the painless transition from pegasus knight to wyvern lord. The only way i can see to avert the WL meta being even more overwhelming is if the other classes get skills so broken they make maddening a joke. 

Ditching varying weapon requirements for some classes may be a good idea, as some admittedly don't make a whole lot of sense.  But also keep in mind I haven't revised class stats and growth rates yet.  Wyvern Lord (among other classes) will probably get some nerfs in those areas.  I may also have to include changes to what Abilities and Arts are learned from increasing Skill Levels.  Close Counter should not be that easy to obtain.

21 minutes ago, darkblade2814 said:

will you work with the dlc classes?

also, is Yuri one of the house lords?

I have no plans to work with the DLC classes.  And I have no clue yet if Yuri is a house leader.

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Darting blows help the most units whit average or low speed, wich often are guys. People like sylvain have very little reason to go cavaliers and risking a speed screw when they can get darting blow and get guaranteed doubling.  And units like Raphael have an out of their weak point, wich leave them whit above average str/def while keeping competitive spd.

As for war master, it's because all the axe relicsare use by girls. War master strike is usually just a nice bonus to quick riposte, but stack it on top of the 24 might Freikugel and you have better atrocity. Also, magic WMS on annette look scary. Dark Bishop Lysithea imo is 100% fine and imo bishop would still be better on her. 

As for the different weapon requirement, my only problem is the pegasus/wyvern transition. Pegi are the best intermediate class held back by the lack of an easy access to any Advanced Class, taking that away would make it straight up the best intermediate whitout some nerfing.

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12 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Darting blows help the most units whit average or low speed, wich often are guys. People like sylvain have very little reason to go cavaliers and risking a speed screw when they can get darting blow and get guaranteed doubling.  And units like Raphael have an out of their weak point, wich leave them whit above average str/def while keeping competitive spd.

If Darting Blow on Pegasus Knights is that bad, then I'll just replace it with something else when I get to their Abilities.  And their rebalanced stats may even include a negative Str bonus.

16 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

As for war master, it's because all the axe relicsare use by girls. War master strike is usually just a nice bonus to quick riposte, but stack it on top of the 24 might Freikugel and you have better atrocity. Also, magic WMS on annette look scary. Dark Bishop Lysithea imo is 100% fine and imo bishop would still be better on her.

Now that's less easy to solve, being heavily tied to lore and all.  Since War Masters (or rather, Masters of Arms) don't necessarily specialize in Axes anymore, they probably won't have Axefaire.  I wonder how viable "generic" Combat Arts (i.e. ones that can be used with any weapon type) could be?  I don't think generic War Master's Strike would be that objectionable.  Anything to give an infantry class something their pesky mounted competition can't do.

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1 hour ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

Again, I'm still working out Abilities.  Maybe I should remove that information for now.

That is fair, perhaps I assumed too much. I do think mono-weapon specialists (Swordmaster, Grappler, Warrior, Sniper, Warlock) should keep their faires. Fortress Knights and Paladins, it's hard to say. Wyvern Rider is the one Advanced class that I affirmatively think, yes, should lose its Faire skill. But again, curious to see what you do.

1 hour ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

I did think about making Brawling the one constant recommendation, but I was not aware of that detail about War Master being the only Master class requiring it in the vanilla class system.  I'll see what can be done about that.

Hm... maybe if Mortal Savant were changed to also specialize in Brawling, and take it as an alternate Req to Swords (A Swords/Brawling, plus A Reason/Faith)? That way it can also function as an option for Grapplers who want the option of ranged magic. Still not 100% on Master-of-Arms, but at least then Gauntlet users aren't left out to dry.

1 hour ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

Again, haven't gotten around to changing Skills yet.  Mage Knight will probably have Black and White Tomefaire, but not Dark Tomefaire.

Problem there is, then Hubert and Lysithea lose out. Ideally, there would be a single "Reasonfaire" skill, but absent that, I don't see a way to make a Mage Knight that works for all magic users.

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24 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

If Darting Blow on Pegasus Knights is that bad, then I'll just replace it with something else when I get to their Abilities.  And their rebalanced stats may even include a negative Str bonus.

Now that's less easy to solve, being heavily tied to lore and all.  Since War Masters (or rather, Masters of Arms) don't necessarily specialize in Axes anymore, they probably won't have Axefaire.  I wonder how viable "generic" Combat Arts (i.e. ones that can be used with any weapon type) could be?  I don't think generic War Master's Strike would be that objectionable.  Anything to give an infantry class something their pesky mounted competition can't do.

WMS whit Freikugel is like 50 might, not having a faire won't prevent it from one shotting a lot of shit.

Lance of ruin WMS is 2 might short of Freikugel WMS, and Silvain has swift strike anyway, so i don't think it change much. I am 99% sure that LoR is the non-axe relic whit the most might.

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1 hour ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

I had some mild concerns of gender-lock removal increasing unbalance (e.g. Dark Bishop Lysithea), but I'm not entirely sure how what you describe works.  Could you explain some more?

Ditching varying weapon requirements for some classes may be a good idea, as some admittedly don't make a whole lot of sense.  But also keep in mind I haven't revised class stats and growth rates yet.  Wyvern Lord (among other classes) will probably get some nerfs in those areas.  I may also have to include changes to what Abilities and Arts are learned from increasing Skill Levels.  Close Counter should not be that easy to obtain.

I have no plans to work with the DLC classes.  And I have no clue yet if Yuri is a house leader.

in the japanese fire emblem twitter it's confirmed on yuri's bio he is the leader of the Ashen Wolves, and about the DLC classes let's awit until they are realised on the game

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1 minute ago, darkblade2814 said:

I would also give Emperor and Armor lord Magic

Eh.  I think the addition of Barons makes it less necessary.

Also, you might want to avoid double-posting so much.  The mods don't like it when people do that on others' threads.

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I thought of a different approach to rebalance the system that would go in a different direction. Characters could get up to four classes per tier, limiting their skill development, but the benefits for all of them would be active at the same time (if a class gives you an art or faire skill, you have it active no matter what).

Now, to balance this out, a few more things would have to be implemented:

  • Classes start with no skills. You get them when you master each of its levels, like in a three-star-mastery system, where you unlock a different art or skill with each star (with the first one you get the class stat bonus and the other ones class-related skills and arts).
  • You only get class exp when using the appropriate weapon/armor/mount mix. Of you have a swordmaster/warrior/hero, you'd only get SW exp when using swords and warrior when using axes. Hero exp would come from either weapon but with a reduced quantity.
  • Mounts and armor become equipable items like balloons, with pros and cons (heavy armor reduces speed, but its the only way of getting armor exp).
  • Some maps allow battalions and some don't. It make sense for them to appear in some maps, but not in others, like the map where you rescue Flayn.

I have some more ideas in mind, like infantry only arts, a different approach to forging... But it would take too long to describe everything without sounding dull.

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11 minutes ago, EdeaCreamer said:

Absolutely remove all gender-locks.  If your system's balance is dependent on having them, then it's a bad system and needs re-designing.

 

It's not necessarily gender. It's that a system need some sanity checks because if everything can be combined whit everything the playerbase will quickly figure out something strong enought to break the game in pieces. It's the rationale why after FFT class system ended up being a broken mess, FFTA had a bunch of races each whit it's own set of Classes. 

On paper you could have a class system that is actually balanced whit no exploits... if you dedicate 5 years or so to playtest it.

Edited by Flere210
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Then make the sanity checks about something other than gender.

In particular, make them about something that can be obtained or realized in-game, with a degree of effort suitable to the system in question.

...also, FFT's class system blows FFTA's and FFTA2's out of the water; the segregation of the classes by race was one of the series's biggest back-steps (and the primary reason you have no business running anything other than all-Viera parties).

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I wonder if certain heavy handed balance measures might be necessary to balance flying classes.

 

Namely, I'd make mounted/flying units weaker while mounted (-4 to all non-hp stats). Being mounted would also disable follow up attacks from the user (though Brave Weapons would still work), and the user would have to dismount to gain access to follow-up attacks. It could be integrated into the Canto skill description.

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