Who are some of the most overrated characters development/character wise.

[Crysta]

1 hour ago, Stephano said:

But why does Edelgard have a lot of people who dislike her and find her overrated while the same type of villain, being Arvis, is widely loved. Arvis is the pivotal reason why the events of Genealogy and Thracia took place (unless you want to blame Ciguyn or Victor which is fine too i guess). 

I don't know, you tell me? He seems to also ally with an evil cult for his own ends and murders the main hero while laughing at him. I could answer "because he's a guy and other guys find him badass", but I have yet to hear a compelling reason for why he's morally superior and therefore easily forgiven and liked. I find Edelgard a far more sympathetic and compelling villain, personally. Respecting the main hero doesn't like... not make you an utter asshole who has done terrible things.

Maybe, just maybe, Arvis is overrated?

Edited February 13, 2020 by Crysta

[Flere210]

Whit Arvis the game does not try to make him loom sympathetic. Hell, it make you want to kill him as painfully as possible. Arvis is "liked" as a villain, whit only few people giving him excuses, wich usually don't hold up when scrutinized. 

Edelgard on the other hand is meant to be sympathetic and kinda "right" wich make certain things harder to accept. 

Arvis joining whit the Loptyr cult is him doing a power move out of ambition and eventually getting outmanuevered and losing everything, Edelgard joining whit the slither is her joining the greater evil to bring down the lesser one.

[Crysta]

Yeah the game not really putting any legwork into developing him significantly kind of makes the case that it's not the game's fault that he's somehow sympathetic and popular lol

[Flere210]

10 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Yeah the game not really putting any legwork into developing him significantly kind of makes the case that it's not the game's fault that he's somehow sympathetic and popular lol

He is popular but i don't think many people actually think that he is right or justify the barbeque.

He is popular in the same way Kefka is popular.

[Crysta]

Just now, Flere210 said:

He is popular but i don't think many people actually think that he is right or justify the barbeque.

He is popular in the same way Kefka is popular.

I don't see anything wrong with believing Edelgard might have a point, even if you find her methods misguided. Particularly if you compare her with Claude or Arvis disfavorably in spite of having similar end goals.

I can see how the game trying to make Edelgard not a completely unapologetic and unfeeling villain may bother people if they're adamant that she is just that and supposed to be just that, but it's silly to pretend a far more underdeveloped anti-villain is better because the game just doesn't bother lol

[Flere210]

My problemnis that i feel the game does not really know what it want to do whit Edelgard, but this is a general problem i have whit 3H writing that make every character change too mich between routes, to the point they don't even feel like themself in certain routes. Her more sympathetic characteristics does not sit well whit how she act in AM for example. I think she would have worked better either as more ruthless or less ruthless.

And mind you, i don't hate her, i just disagree whit her plan and think that people tend to overrate 3H writing in general. Edelgard is just the most controverse character due to her being important and having a strong presence in any route.

 

I also think Arvis is overrated as Hell btw.

[Crysta]

I don't really agree. Edelgard is established as a cold, collected and not trusting or forthcoming character regardless of the route you choose - including the first part of Crimson Flower - but Crimson Flower is naturally the route where you learn more about her and she has more of a motivation to open up towards you. In every other route, you're an enemy, and she treats you as such. She has no reason to give you more than tacit admiration.

I initially thought they'd lean too far into trying to make her cute and cuddly, but after finishing the route, I think it does fine in how it 'uses' her and aligns with my prior assessment of what her character may be like. I get Edelgard and where she's coming from, even if I see some clear flaws in her reasoning (and her flaws as a person), and such characters make the best villains imo.

Her plan is embroiled her in own biases and perceptions. Just like it is with everyone else.

[Sid Starkiller]

4 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

My problemnis that i feel the game does not really know what it want to do whit Edelgard, but this is a general problem i have whit 3H writing that make every character change too mich between routes, to the point they don't even feel like themself in certain routes. Her more sympathetic characteristics does not sit well whit how she act in AM for example. I think she would have worked better either as more ruthless or less ruthless.

And mind you, i don't hate her, i just disagree whit her plan and think that people tend to overrate 3H writing in general. Edelgard is just the most controverse character due to her being important and having a strong presence in any route.

 

I also think Arvis is overrated as Hell btw.

Characters act different because they have different life experiences. That was the Joker's whole thing: He wanted to prove to Batman that anyone, even the best, most noble people, can become a monster like him. Hell, if Hitler had been accepted into art school, he wouldn't have gone on to start World War II and orchestrate the Holocaust.

 

Back to Stephano. Again, this is more about getting you to understand her than like her. You claim she never had a moment of self-reflection like Dimitri and Rhea did. Well, you must have been skipping cutscenes when you played CF, because if you don't think this:

"I'm just...anxious. It feels like the weight of this burden is crushing me. At this very moment, on my orders, I'm starting a war. An army far larger than the one that attacked the Holy Tomb last month will soon be locked in battle. Long-devised strategies are unfolding across Fodlan. Leaders are deciding their loyalties and preparing to fight...So many soldiers and generals will die. It's inevitable that civilians will get caught up in the chaos as well. There will be countless casualties. With a single command, the flames of war will rage across all corners of this realm. And I am the one who is giving the order."

is a moment of self-reflection, then I have to wonder if you know what those words mean. At that moment, the weight of what she's doing has finally hit her. Taking down the church and the Crest system is no longer some far off pipe dream, it's real. It's happening now, it's going to be bloody, and she knows that.

As for the "moment of redemption," I'm assuming you mean like how Dimitri and Rhea have their respective "oh shit I was wrong what have I done" moments (which isn't a moment of redemption, saying sorry isn't a magic ticket to redemption). Edelgard doesn't get one of those because the whole time, right up until the end, she believes what she's doing is right. If you were expecting her to say "Starting the war was wrong," then you missed the entire point of what she was doing.

Which segues into why I personally like her: She's dedicated her life to taking down the most blatant feudalism stand-in I've ever seen. Seriously, the Church of Seiros, by instituting the Crest system, has created a system where those few beings with a supposed "divine gift from the goddess" are allowed to stomp all over anyone they want, do whatever they want, and the commonfolk are expected to just put up with it. Hell, the library in Abyss has a book that talks about how Rhea personally suppressed the development of technology, including the printing press. That is literally a thing that happened in our world during the age of feudalism. Those with power fought tooth and nail against the development and widespread adoption of the printing press, because mass availability of print would allow the commonfolk to learn to read, become educated, realize just how hard the system was screwing them, and fight to end it. Edelgard has dedicated her life to taking this system down, and allowing people from all walks of life to do what they want with their lives, regardless of if they have a Crest or not.

I also happened upon this today, and while I wouldn't use it to argue canon like the author did, it does make an interesting point: https://www.reddit.com/r/Edelgard/comments/f1367v/true_peace/

As far as her starting the war, news flash: change is hard. Those with power will always fight with everything they have to keep it. If you sit around and wait for change to happen, you're wasting your time. Does it suck that she has to start a war to make that change? Of course. Does it suck that people on both sides will die to make it happen? Absolutely. Do I think that automatically makes it wrong? No. I'll leave you with this thought (these numbers are just an example to get the point across):

If the death of a thousand means the freedom of a million, I can live with that.

[Crysta]

She starts the war because she believes a violent and quick overthrow and upending of the system will actually result in less death than a long, drawn out conversation between factions vying for power and pursuing their own interests over the interests of their own people... and she's probably right. People are quick to point out that Claude's method was better, but Claude didn't actually have to deploy his preferred methods (diplomacy and politicking, presumably) because Edelgard started the war and got rid of his primary obstacle for him (the Church)... and I think it wouldn't have been as nice and rosy as people think if he had to.

I'm less convinced that she's entirely ready for the other consequences of suddenly tearing down the foundations of a society, but the game is just not THAT interested in exploring those weeds in any ending.

[AvatarofDiscord]

7 hours ago, Sid Starkiller said:

 

Characters act different because they have different life experiences. That was the Joker's whole thing: He wanted to prove to Batman that anyone, even the best, most noble people, can become a monster like him. Hell, if Hitler had been accepted into art school, he wouldn't have gone on to start World War II and orchestrate the Holocaust.

 

Back to Stephano. Again, this is more about getting you to understand her than like her. You claim she never had a moment of self-reflection like Dimitri and Rhea did. Well, you must have been skipping cutscenes when you played CF, because if you don't think this:

"I'm just...anxious. It feels like the weight of this burden is crushing me. At this very moment, on my orders, I'm starting a war. An army far larger than the one that attacked the Holy Tomb last month will soon be locked in battle. Long-devised strategies are unfolding across Fodlan. Leaders are deciding their loyalties and preparing to fight...So many soldiers and generals will die. It's inevitable that civilians will get caught up in the chaos as well. There will be countless casualties. With a single command, the flames of war will rage across all corners of this realm. And I am the one who is giving the order."

is a moment of self-reflection, then I have to wonder if you know what those words mean. At that moment, the weight of what she's doing has finally hit her. Taking down the church and the Crest system is no longer some far off pipe dream, it's real. It's happening now, it's going to be bloody, and she knows that.

As for the "moment of redemption," I'm assuming you mean like how Dimitri and Rhea have their respective "oh shit I was wrong what have I done" moments (which isn't a moment of redemption, saying sorry isn't a magic ticket to redemption). Edelgard doesn't get one of those because the whole time, right up until the end, she believes what she's doing is right. If you were expecting her to say "Starting the war was wrong," then you missed the entire point of what she was doing.

Which segues into why I personally like her: She's dedicated her life to taking down the most blatant feudalism stand-in I've ever seen. Seriously, the Church of Seiros, by instituting the Crest system, has created a system where those few beings with a supposed "divine gift from the goddess" are allowed to stomp all over anyone they want, do whatever they want, and the commonfolk are expected to just put up with it. Hell, the library in Abyss has a book that talks about how Rhea personally suppressed the development of technology, including the printing press. That is literally a thing that happened in our world during the age of feudalism. Those with power fought tooth and nail against the development and widespread adoption of the printing press, because mass availability of print would allow the commonfolk to learn to read, become educated, realize just how hard the system was screwing them, and fight to end it. Edelgard has dedicated her life to taking this system down, and allowing people from all walks of life to do what they want with their lives, regardless of if they have a Crest or not.

I also happened upon this today, and while I wouldn't use it to argue canon like the author did, it does make an interesting point: https://www.reddit.com/r/Edelgard/comments/f1367v/true_peace/

As far as her starting the war, news flash: change is hard. Those with power will always fight with everything they have to keep it. If you sit around and wait for change to happen, you're wasting your time. Does it suck that she has to start a war to make that change? Of course. Does it suck that people on both sides will die to make it happen? Absolutely. Do I think that automatically makes it wrong? No. I'll leave you with this thought (these numbers are just an example to get the point across):

If the death of a thousand means the freedom of a million, I can live with that.

You do realize that the “nobles” that treat everyone like shit are all from the empire right?

Duke Argir, Count Varley, Count Bartels being three examples

Rodrique is a noble that cares for his people, Lorenz is helping stop a dispute of land in the Allience, Ingrids family practically lives off of defending the nobles with their weapon, Hildas family has to deal with Almyran invaders looking to cause trouble, and I can go on

Btw the self reflection both characters (Dimitri and Rhea) has is when they know they messed up and want to change, while Edlegard is more like “MAN IM FUCKING PUMPED”

And yes change is hard, but that doesn’t mean go all Leeroy Jenkins on everyone cause they don’t agree (Famous example Martin Luther King Jr.)

[Strullemia]

2 hours ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

You do realize that the “nobles” that treat everyone like shit are all from the empire right?

Duke Argir, Count Varley, Count Bartels being three examples

Rodrique is a noble that cares for his people, Lorenz is helping stop a dispute of land in the Allience, Ingrids family practically lives off of defending the nobles with their weapon, Hildas family has to deal with Almyran invaders looking to cause trouble, and I can go on

Btw the self reflection both characters (Dimitri and Rhea) has is when they know they messed up and want to change, while Edlegard is more like “MAN IM FUCKING PUMPED”

And yes change is hard, but that doesn’t mean go all Leeroy Jenkins on everyone cause they don’t agree (Famous example Martin Luther King Jr.)

 

Rodrigue reinforces the toxic idealism that is at the core of Fhaergus’s problems and in the alliance many nobles don’t care about the common people and care more about money.

The Martin Luther take is not a good one when the American people only just elected Trump, the whitest president there is.

Speaking off Martin Luther King, he at one point talked about how his biggest roadblock isn’t the KKK clan but the white moderate voter who believes more in order than justice and prefers things to stay just the way things are so that they can preserve that status quo in fear of change.

The church also refuses to change and it is only after Edelgard starts a war that they go through some reforms in the endings. The problem is that Edelgards’s war only happened waaaaaaay after the church was established. They had a long time to make reforms.

 

[AvatarofDiscord]

11 minutes ago, Strullemia said:

 

Rodrigue reinforces the toxic idealism that is at the core of Fhaergus’s problems and in the alliance many nobles don’t care about the common people and care more about money.

The Martin Luther take is not a good one when the American people only just elected Trump, the whitest president there is.

Speaking off Martin Luther King, he at one point talked about how his biggest roadblock isn’t the KKK clan but the white moderate voter who believes more in order than justice and prefers things to stay just the way things are so that they can preserve that status quo in fear of change.

The church also refuses to change and it is only after Edelgard starts a war that they go through some reforms in the endings. The problem is that Edelgards’s war only happened waaaaaaay after the church was established. They had a long time to make reforms.

 

Way to completely ignore the point I was making about Martin Luther King Jr and talk about modern politics

Martin Luther King Jr brought change not by attacking everyone, but with peaceful protests that caused reforms about Black Rights

And one could argue that the church tried to change (See: The church’s civil war in Fódlan) but Rhea was the archbishop and blah blah blah civil war

Bur if we want to talk about Nobles again

Lysithea: Most endings also state her living as a commoner if she lives

Hilda: Family defends the Area they control from Almyrans

Lorenz: Mentions that everyone dislikes Acheron for his ways, with Lorenz even stating he wishes to take care of him Personally

Judith: Hero of Daphene herself, helps Church Route during SN with supplies and even helps them fight to prevent the Empires from completely destroying the continent

Marianne: Was adopted by a Noble who had no reason to adopt her

[Crysta]

No, not all the bad nobles are in the Empire. The kingdom is still dealing with the aftermath of a bloody genocide - sanctioned by the bad nobles - and it's implied the former head of House Riegan was assassinated by Count Gloucester, whose schemes have also endangered the commoners who stepped in his crossfire. Caste systems are generally crappy.

Don't evoke MLK in a silly internet debate. Keep the discussion on in-game politics, lest this devolve even further from the original topic. Edelgard reflects and has made peace with the path she chose. If you're disappointed that she doesn't come to the conclusion you want her to... too bad? Every villain is the protagonist of the story in their head.

She's a good character. She is not a perfect person, nor should she be.

 

Edited February 14, 2020 by Crysta

[Strullemia]

42 minutes ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

Way to completely ignore the point I was making about Martin Luther King Jr and talk about modern politics

Martin Luther King Jr brought change not by attacking everyone, but with peaceful protests that caused reforms about Black Rights

And one could argue that the church tried to change (See: The church’s civil war in Fódlan) but Rhea was the archbishop and blah blah blah civil war

Bur if we want to talk about Nobles again

Lysithea: Most endings also state her living as a commoner if she lives

Hilda: Family defends the Area they control from Almyrans

Lorenz: Mentions that everyone dislikes Acheron for his ways, with Lorenz even stating he wishes to take care of him Personally

Judith: Hero of Daphene herself, helps Church Route during SN with supplies and even helps them fight to prevent the Empires from completely destroying the continent

Marianne: Was adopted by a Noble who had no reason to adopt her

Here’s the thing about that list of nobles, what makes you believe that those nobles would change things? Because ultimately a rich woman/man acting nice or doing their job like defending from invaders is nothing special. Bringing real change is what matters and the fact that even Byleth, Claude and Dimitri need the war to realize their ideals only reinforces that.

Hell, why did the father, grandfather and grandgrandfather of all the nobles not change things in  the almost 1000 years of Fodlan since the war with nemesis? Because it was the convenient thing to do and they didn’t want to bring real, significant change to the common folk.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Strullemia
Crysta is right

[Eurydice]

2 minutes ago, Strullemia said:

Bringing real change is what matters and the fact that even Byleth, Claude and Dimitri need the war to realize their ideals only reinforces that.

I don't think Dimitri needed the war since you know, it made him mentally snap. Claude didn't need it either as he mentions that he would rather have his dreams become a reality, without causing any bloodshed even if that's unrealistic and impossible. Nobody really needed the war. 

[Strullemia]

4 minutes ago, Eurydice said:

I don't think Dimitri needed the war since you know, it made him mentally snap. Claude didn't need it either as he mentions that he would rather have his dreams become a reality, without causing any bloodshed even if that's unrealistic and impossible. Nobody really needed the war. 

Claude at one point in his route says that without the war he wouldn’t be able to bring his dreams to fruition. I’m not saying they wanted it, I’m saying that without it they wouldn’t have had the power in the aftermath to realize their ideals.

[AvatarofDiscord]

11 minutes ago, Strullemia said:

Claude at one point in his route says that without the war he wouldn’t be able to bring his dreams to fruition. I’m not saying they wanted it, I’m saying that without it they wouldn’t have had the power in the aftermath to realize their ideals.

Chapter 12: Claude mentions that Edlegard ruined all his plans with her war

Yeah sure....

Edited February 14, 2020 by AvatarofDiscord
Other points to be made

[Eurydice]

2 minutes ago, Strullemia said:

Claude at one point in his route says that without the war he wouldn’t be able to bring his dreams to fruition. I’m not saying they wanted it, I’m saying that without it they wouldn’t have had the power in the aftermath to realize their ideals.

 

Not sure if I agree though, as the war and the truth about Edelgard being the Flame Emperor makes Dimitri mentally snap and Claude loses everybody, or dies. They only come out of it okay if the professor is with them, if Byleth isn't with them, then the war completely destroys them both. Maybe if they both came out of the war somewhat okay with or without Byleth then I would agree. 

[AvatarofDiscord]

33 minutes ago, Strullemia said:

Here’s the thing about that list of nobles, what makes you believe that those nobles would change things? Because ultimately a rich woman/man acting nice or doing their job like defending from invaders is nothing special. Bringing real change is what matters and the fact that even Byleth, Claude and Dimitri need the war to realize their ideals only reinforces that.

Hell, why did the father, grandfather and grandgrandfather of all the nobles not change things in  the almost 1000 years of Fodlan since the war with nemesis? Because it was the convenient thing to do and they didn’t want to bring real, significant change to the common folk.

Nice argument from silence there btw

Arguing things because we should have seen *insert whatever shit* here if the nobles were not that bad

Oh and also with your Claude point

[Crysta]

Rhea is the obstacle for both Edelgard and Claude, and she isn't going down without a fight: which one of them comes out the victor is dependent on who Byleth chooses to tutor. Claude anticipates having to fight her, but Edelgard acts first and he no longer has to.

Or they both fail and Dimitri gets to be king and... I'm not sure what his game plan is beyond "reform things to not suck quite as much as before" lol.

[Strullemia]

12 minutes ago, Eurydice said:

 

Not sure if I agree though, as the war and the truth about Edelgard being the Flame Emperor makes Dimitri mentally snap and Claude loses everybody, or dies. They only come out of it okay if the professor is with them, if Byleth isn't with them, then the war completely destroys them both. Maybe if they both came out of the war somewhat okay with or without Byleth then I would agree. 

Oh I should’ve specified that I’m talking about their routes where they do have Byleth. 

 

[AvatarofDiscord]

2 minutes ago, Strullemia said:

Oh I should’ve specified that I’m talking about their routes where they do have Byleth. 

 

Except no they still didn’t need the war then

Claude already was on his way to get Almyra and Fódlan to stop fighting while Dimitri has to have someone else die from his actions, but with a helping hand to get rid of his problems

7 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Rhea is the obstacle for both Edelgard and Claude, and she isn't going down without a fight: which one of them comes out the victor is dependent on who Byleth chooses to tutor. Claude anticipates having to fight her, but Edelgard acts first and he no longer has to.

Or they both fail and Dimitri gets to be king and... I'm not sure what his game plan is beyond "reform things to not suck quite as much as before" lol.

Claude anticipates having to fight as a last resort, he doesn’t want to fight, while Edlegard plunges the world into war and thinks “I’m helping”

[Strullemia]

8 minutes ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

Nice argument from silence there btw

Arguing things because we should have seen *insert whatever shit* here if the nobles were not that bad

Oh and also with your Claude point

? 
We’re not supposed to question why things never changed in the hundreds of years before we took magical control of Byleth?

As for Claude, look @Crysta’s post

[Crysta]

4 minutes ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

Except no they still didn’t need the war then

Claude already was on his way to get Almyra and Fódlan to stop fighting while Dimitri has to have someone else die from his actions, but with a helping hand to get rid of his problems

Claude anticipates having to fight as a last resort, he doesn’t want to fight, while Edlegard plunges the world into war and thinks “I’m helping”

So do you think Rhea is just going to change the way she does things over crumpets and tea, given how well she handles criticism and dissent?

He anticipates having to fight as an inevitability. Because it probably is. But he's a cad in a strange land who just recently got a hint of political power, whereas Edelgard was born an Imperial princess and had been plotting for years. He wasn't "already on his way" - he was just starting on a very, very long road.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Crysta

[Eurydice]

 Claude knows that fighting the church and Rhea is just going to trigger bloodshed and he's not about that, while Edelgard is willing to go all the way. 

 

Edited February 14, 2020 by Eurydice