Thoughts on FEH's fanservice

[Ottservia]

1 minute ago, Baldrick said:

The key words here are “at the expense of”. Whatever you think of Tharja and Camilla, there’s no denying they would have a better chance at a proper character arc without the creepy obsession with the player’s avatar.

Yep I can definitely agree to that

[daisy jane]

2 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

The key words here are “at the expense of”. Whatever you think of Tharja and Camilla, there’s no denying they would have a better chance at a proper character arc without the creepy obsession with the player’s avatar. @daisy jane Do you agree with this?

 

To be utterly honest with you. it's been a hot minute and a half since i played either with those games, so I don't know if I could make a wholehearted YES! (or no). I will say - i wasn't so much creeped out by Tharja on Robin, though i was kind of confused why camilla was so well camilla to corrin  🙂 

[eclipse]

9 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

The key words here are “at the expense of”. Whatever you think of Tharja and Camilla, there’s no denying they would have a better chance at a proper character arc without the creepy obsession with the player’s avatar. @daisy jane Do you agree with this?

Camilla might've worked better if the writing focused more on her past, and if she showed that kind of clinginess to others (Elise comes to mind).

Tharja's. . .sort of works, given the context of her other supports.  But I think she'd also need a bit more clinginess to her non-Robin romantic partners for it to be truly convincing.

[Etrurian emperor]

2 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Can’t we all just agree that artists are horny and it’s fine to express that through their characters.

I'm not entirely sure that's the case. I feel that the marketing department is much more responsible for that than the artists. I'm not entirely sure how much leeway the artists get but this being a gatcha game gives the marketing far more incentive to be horny. 

[Ottservia]

Just now, eclipse said:

Camilla might've worked better if the writing focused more on her past, and if she showed that kind of clinginess to others (Elise comes to mind).

Tharja's. . .sort of works, given the context of her other supports.  But I think she'd also need a bit more clinginess to her non-Robin romantic partners for it to be truly convincing.

Camilla you either need to tone down the Corrin obsession or crank up her motherly nature towards Leo and Elise so that it’s on the same level as Corrin. because they really lay the fetish pandering on thick with their supports. It comes off less as motherly big sister is overly concerned and more Onee-chan really wants to fuck Corrin and only Corrin. The supports she has with her other siblings and other characters are fine though because it reflects her overly motherly and doting nature which is essentially what they were going for with her. 
 

Tharja though? It’s better off removed entirely or toned down significantly cause it doesn’t add anything to her character. It just feels really tacked on solely to pander to a fetish.

[eclipse]

4 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Camilla you either need to tone down the Corrin obsession or crank up her motherly nature towards Leo and Elise so that it’s on the same level as Corrin. because they really lay the fetish pandering on thick with their supports. It comes off less as motherly big sister is overly concerned and more Onee-chan really wants to fuck Corrin and only Corrin. The supports she has with her other siblings and other characters are fine though because it reflects her overly motherly and doting nature which is essentially what they were going for with her. 
 

Tharja though? It’s better off removed entirely or toned down significantly cause it doesn’t add anything to her character. It just feels really tacked on solely to pander to a fetish.

If the argument was "Camilla's worried about losing her siblings", then I'd expect her to act that way towards everyone not named Xander. . .but especially Elise.  Kinda wish it had been that, since an older sister that's deathly afraid of losing her younger siblings would've been cool.

Tharja's socially awkward, which means I can see her being weird towards Robin.  I would've liked it if she started being equally weird with the guy she's interested in. . .which never happens, sadly.

[Alkaid]

55 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Because muscles tend to empower men rather than titillate women, whereas skimpy clothing and large breasts tend to appeal to titillate men rather than empower women.

To work out the kind of men meant to appeal to women, look at actors to tend to be cast in romantic comedies. Do they have more in common with bodybuilder types like Hawkeye, or pretty boys like Pent?

Pent is the kind of character stereotypically popular with women, a truer counterpart to characters like Loki. His seasonal version is a groom, which empathises the different way in which straight females are marketed to compared to straight males.

Have you ever seen the women's romance novel section at a book store? There's tons of muscular guys all across the covers. They purposefully select those kind of male models because they tend to sell the books better. However, women have diverse tastes just like men do, but to attempt to say muscles are more for men's interest than women is some strange generalizing. And I don't think I have to explain how common it is for men to gain muscle for the sake of attracting women either. It would also be remiss to disregard the popularity of confident and sexy women among other women, big breast-ed ones included. I get your point, but I think you're generalizing too much off some preconceived notions, and the muscle one is especially questionable.

And I don't see how Pent being a groom means anything special for being marketed towards women. Because he's in a nice suit and not half-naked, and you assume women prefer that? Why do the brides, also not half-naked, do well with men if they prefer less clothes in contrast? Where do shirtless summer alts of males aimed at women fit in? Sure a groom should be popular with women, but so are half-naked men as well, or nicely-clothed women with men. They're really not exclusive forms of catering to either sex, and both are widely liked.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Alkaid

[Othin]

A comparison:

Of these three, Corrin is the least covered. But her outfit is really the most normal of the three. She's wearing a common enough type of swimsuit, people wear stuff like that to the beach all the time.

Hinoka is wearing a towel. Not nearly as common to wear in public, but it's still something people actually wear.

But what the hell is Lyn wearing? It's like a tabard, but with nothing under it. Who does that?

I don't mind Heroes having revealing outfits, and I've got no complaints about those arts for Corrin and Hinoka. But it's stuff like this Lyn art that I do have a problem with. Outfits that make no sense for someone to wear other than to titillate themselves or someone watching them, that the characters treat as just... normal clothes. It makes them seem less like people, and more like fetishistic caricatures. And I'm certainly not going to tell people not to enjoy that stuff, but I don't like seeing an FE game undermine its characters like that.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Othin

[Sunwoo]

In all fairness @Othin FE7!Lyn basically wore that too, so if the artist wanted to be true to the source material, they didn't have much choice in that regard I guess @[email protected]

A better comparison might be de-pantsing Maribelle in Heroes when she originally had pants.

[Othin]

Just now, Sunwoo said:

In all fairness @Othin FE7!Lyn basically wore that too, so if the artist wanted to be true to the source material, they didn't have much choice in that regard I guess @[email protected]

A better comparison might be de-pantsing Maribelle in Heroes when she originally had pants.

Yeah, that's why I said FE in general rather than Heroes specifically. That's a case of FE7 being the originator, but as you said, Heroes has plenty of its own examples.

[Sunwoo]

4 minutes ago, Othin said:

Yeah, that's why I said FE in general rather than Heroes specifically. That's a case of FE7 being the originator, but as you said, Heroes has plenty of its own examples.

Fair enough.

And yeah, in the main game series every series had its own share of questionable and less questionable outfit choices. The Tellius pegasus knights wearing pants was great. What they did to female paladins and great knights in Awakening and Fates was very highly questionable (and stupid-looking). As are the Ilian pegasus knights wearing miniskirts and short sleeves even though they come from:

Edited February 6, 2020 by Sunwoo

[Alkaid]

19 minutes ago, Othin said:

But what the hell is Lyn wearing? It's like a tabard, but with nothing under it. Who does that?

I don't mind Heroes having revealing outfits, and I've got no complaints about those arts for Corrin and Hinoka. But it's stuff like this Lyn art that I do have a problem with. Outfits that make no sense for someone to wear other than to titillate themselves or someone watching them, that the characters treat as just... normal clothes. It makes them seem less like people, and more like fetishistic caricatures. And I'm certainly not going to tell people not to enjoy that stuff, but I don't like seeing an FE game undermine its characters like that.

Lyn's dress is literally inspired by the the real Chinese Cheongsam or Qipao styles of dress. It's real and worn in China. Being very leggy is basically their thing. I can understand your point for some FE outfits, but Lyn's not really one of the offenders. Her character's even treated as being from a Mongolian steppe-like place, so the Chinese style makes some sense.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Alkaid

[Othin]

7 minutes ago, Alkaid said:

Lyn's dress is literally inspired by the the real Chinese Cheongsam or Qipao styles of dress. It's real and worn in China. Being very leggy is basically their thing. I can understand your point for some FE outfits, but Lyn's not really one of the offenders. Her character's even treated as being from a Mongolian steppe-like place, so the Chinese style makes some sense.

Those outfits can cover normal underwear. If Lyn's did that, I wouldn't be complaining about it. It doesn't.

[Wonderie]

2 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Because muscles tend to empower men rather than titillate women, whereas skimpy clothing and large breasts tend to appeal to titillate men rather than empower women.

To work out the kind of men meant to appeal to women, look at actors to tend to be cast in romantic comedies. Do they have more in common with bodybuilder types like Hawkeye, or pretty boys like Pent?

Pent is the kind of character stereotypically popular with women, a truer counterpart to characters like Loki. His seasonal version is a groom, which I think has a emotional rather than sexual appeal, even compared to brides. 

I’m a fan of both Fire Emblem and Langrisser, one gives me my fill of strategy games with good character development and the other gives me my fill of strategy games with sexy fanservice. When the Fire Emblem series starts to focus on sexy fanservice at the expense of good character development... I go through withdrawal.

I can look at Hawkeye and believe he's sexy while you may think its empowering. You see skimpy clothes and large breast to appear to titillate men while I can look at it as lady confident in their own body. It's a mean of difference in taste and perspective; and also low key double standard. I've stated this before that was replied to you, that you didn't highlight but I will state it again: the justification you given to Hawkeye, someone else may put equal value justification for Loki and Camilla. I am here to say I disagree with the double standard which have been unfortunately normalized.

You say Pent is stereotypically popular popular with women, and it is what you just said, stereotypically. I'll leave it at that.

I'm sorry you go through withdrawal due to skin exposure or a close up of a female body parts. But at least it saved the series from being buried in the coffin. 
 

Edited February 6, 2020 by Wonderie

[Alkaid]

21 minutes ago, Othin said:

Those outfits can cover normal underwear. If Lyn's did that, I wouldn't be complaining about it. It doesn't.

There's higher cut ones too. The point is, yes this is a real kind of dress and it's not just a made up fetish outfit. You can say it's not sensible for battle or whatever, but still, real. (plenty of more mild stuff from mounted girls' miniskirts to shirtless bezerkers could be called ill-fitting for battle as well on that note, so not much point when it's a light-fantasy-medieval type of series anyway. I don't think it really undermines them within the context the games' world)

Spoiler

 

Edited February 6, 2020 by Alkaid

[Othin]

Another character I want to talk about is Kronya.

Kronya's outfit is extremely weird and blatantly sexual. The thing is that Kronya herself is also extremely weird. So on her, I'd say it doesn't come off as being portrayed as much as regular clothes as it would on a more "normal" character, or as undermining other aspects of her characterization. It's possible to overdo on these types of characters, but I don't mind deliberately sexual outfits as much on characters that they come off as more reasonable on.

8 minutes ago, Alkaid said:

There's higher cut ones too. The point is, yes this is a real kind of dress and it's not just a made up fetish outfit. You can say it's not sensible for battle or whatever, but still, real.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Alright, it's not something FE made up. I would still say that type comes off as deliberately sexual in a way a swimsuit or towel does not.

[Ice Dragon]

3 hours ago, eclipse said:

Mages would most likely be in back, so I'm more forgiving of them, too. . .except Serra.  That skirt impedes her walking, and that's a little too much.

That's why she needs Erk to carry her.

[eclipse]

1 hour ago, Othin said:

Alright, it's not something FE made up. I would still say that type comes off as deliberately sexual in a way a swimsuit or towel does not.

Compare what she's wearing to Guy.  They're similar.  It's a little silly that she's not wearing pants, though.  Her Blazing Sword official art has the side slits lower, enough where she might be able to get away with undies (albeit undies that I'd expect a dancer to wear).

[Ice Dragon]

13 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Compare what she's wearing to Guy.  They're similar.  It's a little silly that she's not wearing pants, though.

That's likely because the female version of the changsan is normally not worn with pants whereas the male version of it is.

[thanny]

5 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Which sure sounds to me like you're implying said fictional women can express themselves.

It's very black and white. Real women are sentient and can make decisions such as how to express themselves. Fictional women are not sentient and cannot make such decisions. Interpreting a criticism of one as a criticism of the other is a rather underhanded argument.

Yep, that's exactly what I was saying, no implications or anything. Art itself is a form of expression, so in a way the characters are expressing themselves in the way they are designed by their creator.

I am fully aware that real women are real sentient people with their own conscious, but I'm not sure when we ever needed consent from fictional female characters (or any gender in that matter) on how they want to be portrayed, especially in the context of the Fire Emblem franchise.

11 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Personally I always believe that context matter a lot when it comes to fanservice. Hawkeye could technically be seen in a highly sexual light but its likely not happening. The ''bara'' fandom doesn't seem to be all that large and I suspect they'd rather flock to a more conventionally pretty muscle boi like Grima than an ''old man'' like Haywkeye. With Hawkeye very few fans are being served so there's no reason to be suspicious.

He is though, I could post numerous examples of provocative Hawkeye depictions, but those pictures would be inappropriate here. In my perspective, he is not as prominently drawn as other characters because the character nor the franchise were nowhere as relevant and mainstream as now, hence why I believe why there is a scarce source of lewd Hawkeyes, but they do exist. Also he's getting more exposure in Heroes at least. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

11 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Societal norms do play a big part of that. One could argue that they shouldn't but they very much do. Loki having her tits hang out has a very different meaning than Niime having the same outfit. With Loki its a safe bett that the devs want to players to imagine getting into Loki's pants.

That was one of the main parts of my post, to point out the societal norm and the double standards when it comes to male and female character depictions.

People are allowed to feel disgruntled and voice their resentment against Loki's design, but it is not fair to exclude half naked men like Hawkeye out of the argument just because he wasn't originally intended to be sexualized like she was. Both of them are designed the same way, just one is widely accepted and the other is controversial.

Sure, she is probably designed like that in mind, but she's also a full-fledged character next to any Fire Emblem character, not just a blatant sexually objectified money maker, as some claim.

11 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Sometimes a man without a shirt is just a man without a shirt. Sometimes a woman wearing practically nothing at all isn't just a woman wearing practically nothing at all, but a woman specifically wearing nothing at all because the marketing departments wants your money. One scenario is inherently more off putting than the other. This being a gatcha game can further make fanservice more off putting because its used to get people hooked on gambling. 

I understand and agree with you, and there's nothing wrong with feeling iffy about female characters being sexualized for money, I completely respect your opinion. My other main point is that most of the posts are indicating that only female characters are the only ones being sexually objectified in the game and industry, which simply aren't true.

6 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Can’t we all just agree that artists are horny and it’s fine to express that through their characters.

That's a statement that I can get behind! What's not fine is belittling them as people and artists, that ain't cool.

Just like @Alkaid has stated, there are female artists who objectify female characters for the sake of passion or monetisation. One prominent artist that comes in mind is sakimichan.

9 hours ago, eclipse said:

The reason why I specifically brought up miniskirts in the older games is because the ones that wear them tend to be the mounted ladies.  This really is fanservice

I don't know if it's deliberately or totally fanservice at the time, but I can see where you're coming from. Sure, miniskirts were probably there to give the lads to peek back in the day, but I'd also weigh in that the design choice of a miniskirt is to display femininity to draw in girls who like cute, frilly and feminine characters and designs too.

[eclipse]

9 minutes ago, thanny said:

I don't know if it's deliberately or totally fanservice at the time, but I can see where you're coming from. Sure, miniskirts were probably there to give the lads to peek back in the day, but I'd also weigh in that the design choice of a miniskirt is to display femininity to draw in girls who like cute, frilly and feminine characters and designs too.

Serenes Forest is more than a forum.  There's also official artwork of the games, including the older ones.  I invite you to take a look, and draw your own conclusion (hint: it's not frilly).

[Interdimensional Observer]

4 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Tharja though? It’s better off removed entirely or toned down significantly cause it doesn’t add anything to her character. It just feels really tacked on solely to pander to a fetish.

Or, they add a magical explanation for the attraction. A really weird response to Reflet's being Gimle thing (I'll randomly use their Japanese names just because). She was a Plegian Dark Mage, she might have spent time in the Grimleal, I guess, maybe. Not in any real role, but having become attuned to the darkness, does she now detect its succulent presence in the innocent amnesiac soul of this random guy/girl who preaches tactics?

 

Just now, eclipse said:

Serenes Forest is more than a forum.  There's also official artwork of the games, including the older ones.  I invite you to take a look, and draw your own conclusion (hint: it's not frilly).

Speaking of which with those cheongsams:

Ye olde Eff Eeee Thre.

Though, male pantslessness was not unheard of in this pre-FE4 world, FE4 being the first game where FE got serious about its artwork. Well, with Treasure and the original TCG at least.

[eclipse]

2 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Speaking of which with those cheongsams:

Ye olde Eff Eeee Thre.

Though, male pantslessness was not unheard of in this pre-FE4 world, FE4 being the first game where FE got serious about its artwork. Well, with Treasure and the original TCG at least.

My issue with miniskirts was because of mounts.  Linde isn't mounted, but I question the lack of shoes!

[Ottservia]

6 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Speaking of which with those cheongsams:

Ye olde Eff Eeee Thre.

Though, male pantslessness was not unheard of in this pre-FE4 world, FE4 being the first game where FE got serious about its artwork. Well, with Treasure and the original TCG at least.

This looks like something straight out of an 80’s or 90’s magical girl anime ngl

Edited February 6, 2020 by Ottservia

[Ice Dragon]

20 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Speaking of which with those cheongsams:

That's just a dress with a side slit.

 

17 minutes ago, eclipse said:

My issue with miniskirts was because of mounts.  Linde isn't mounted, but I question the lack of shoes!

Playing as Corrin in Warriors and having her run on gravel or cobblestones makes my feet hurt just watching it.