FEH Pass and what went wrong

[Anacybele]

3 minutes ago, daisy jane said:

I think the interesting thing about this whole to do is, I don't personally think IntSys could have done this anyway without people being mad.

Please, they can't do ANYTHING without some people being mad. There's no pleasing everyone. There's always whiners and complainers... 😕

[Ice Dragon]

14 minutes ago, daisy jane said:

I think the interesting thing about this whole to do is, I don't personally think IntSys could have done this anyway without people being mad.

There will always be someone who is displeased by any decision made that affects this many people. There's nothing special about it.

 

14 minutes ago, daisy jane said:

If they brought the quality of life things (ie:auto start, the turnwheel etc) to everyone, but then included, say more orbs, more SP events, more free summons tickets - something to "justify" the cost to have people subscribed (and more importantly remain subscribed), people would kvetch how those offerings should be available to everyone too.

That's a slippery slope fallacy.

Just looking at the previous posts in this thread, the people who are posting about what should and shouldn't be a part of the Feh Pass all at least have a general idea of where that line should be drawn. The position of that line may be different for each person, but most people I think would agree that there exist things that are justified to be put behind the Feh Pass even if they don't all agree on what those things are.

Edited February 10, 2020 by Ice Dragon

[XRay]

2 hours ago, daisy jane said:

If they brought the quality of life things (ie:auto start, the turnwheel etc) to everyone, but then included, say more orbs, more SP events, more free summons tickets - something to "justify" the cost to have people subscribed (and more importantly remain subscribed), people would kvetch how those offerings should be available to everyone too. Personally - I don't have a problem with FEH creating a subscription/pass thing to make money. I wouldn't have this issue if i didn't subscribe because i wasn't sure if i was, but the fact that I get some heroes, etc - that was enough for me, and I personally like supporting a game I play every day for hours  and i want it to do well. 

I do not think I have seen anybody who is asking for free resources in relation to paying players though. No one is asking for free Feathers, Sacred Coins, Grails, etc. despite Special Orb Packs being a thing for quite a while now. What players have been asking for is to address the huge gap in resources between veteran and new players, not between paying players and free players.

From what I have seen, most people do not have a problem with the subscription as a revenue model. It is what they are offering for sale and how they are advertising it that is kind of the issue.

Edited February 10, 2020 by XRay

[NekoKnight]

10 hours ago, Hilda said:

I dont see anything P2W in the FEH Pass currently.

However what i think they should have done:
For all Players:
- Rewind
- Auto-Battle function
- Stat boost to the Resplendant Hero

For FEH Pass users:
- Summoners support for 2 additional characters seems fine
- Cosmetic change/Resplendend Hero
- Allways double SP and EXP (quadruple during weekends)
- allways double Hero merits
- The quests
 

This seems like a solid compromise. I'd add on an extra free summon for each banner for subscribers.

It's a shame they don't make Resplendent boosts available to all. If they did, I think people would be pretty on board with the pass existing, even if they didn't want to pay for it.

[Othin]

If it was non-intrusive and just skins, quests, and free units, no one would have grounds to complain. They already sell resources and free units, and skins are something other games sell all the time. I also think adding on non-unique stuff like the idea of increased EXP/SP/HM gain would go over fine because it isn't letting pass players access stuff non-pass ones can't, it just means doing the same thing a bit faster and who's to say what the "right" rate would be. It's not locking non-pass players out of features, or stat increases, or certain Summoner Support setups.

[Endriu]

I didn't subscribe to it and it wasn't about the money. Not a lot of money for me, but it might be a lot of money for some people And those people are treated as 2nd class players from now on. I cannot endorse that and am willing to bear the greatest burden of them all: Being constantly reminded that this rubbish-pass exists, it's like a third rate app that is telling you if you pay you won't see any more advertisements. That's just cheap.

I wouldn't exactly call the pass p2w as those stat boosts, or even the summoner support don't provide a huge advantage imo. However, it is a paid advantage and that shouldn't exist in a game published by a family friendly company.

I can live without the qol features but locking them behind a paywall feels just meh. Poor choice. 

Announcing the pass during feh anniversary channel as if its the next big thing was a prime example of how to spoil an anniversary (well, it's an anniversary just in name anyway, lackluster rubbish, thats all).

The units sold via the pass is an interesting feature, it can help with a merge project or save orbs if you seek fodder. 

Even if I wanted/needed those units I wouldn't buy the pass out of spite. In fact this game won't see a dime from me, no matter what.

I understand Nintendo/IS is a business, looking for ways to make money. But there are other possibilities as well. Why not start by making the game better? Yep.

[Javi Blizz]

Here are my 2 cents on the subject:

As many people here know, I’m F2P. However, I think subscriptions, while done well, are a really good way to support a game that you like. So, I’d  stop being F2P if I found attractive what they offer. However, there would need to be some changes what they currently offer. 
 

As someone pointed out, the 10 orbs included have a value of 5.20$. For me, orbs are pointless. I’ve been playing since launch, so I know that I won’t spend a cent in orbs. 
 

That means that the price would drop to aprox 4.5$ (it’s very unprobable to see a price such as 4.30$) for: 2 guaranteed 5* units (resplandecent heroes), QoL improvements and a few divine dew and divine codes. 
 

For me, it’s a respectable price which is much easier to afford than 10$ per month. If people want the 10 orbs, they can buy them either way. But forcing players to buy orbs and spend more, no thanks, that’s not what I want to support. 

[Ice Dragon]

I feel like if Resplendent Hero stat boosts weren't part of the paid benefits, either the Feh Pass would lose a huge amount of its attractiveness to buy or they would be forced to skip out on giving attention to units in the 4-star pool (which would mean goodbye to any chances of Marth, Eliwood, both Corrins, etc. ever getting the Resplendent Hero treatment).

After all, getting a copy of Cordelia and a skin for her is rather underwhelming compared to also getting a stat boost for her. Furthermore, since they intend to make Resplendent Heroes purchasable after their distribution period, this would significantly reduce revenue that could be made from these purchases since it would simply only be a skin, thus likely both be priced lower and also be less meaningful to purchase overall.

I don't see anything good to come out of making Resplendent Heroes into purely visual changes. Art and voice work aren't free.

[Endriu]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

I feel like if Resplendent Hero stat boosts weren't part of the paid benefits, either the Feh Pass would lose a huge amount of its attractiveness to buy or they would be forced to skip out on giving attention to units in the 4-star pool (which would mean goodbye to any chances of Marth, Eliwood, both Corrins, etc. ever getting the Resplendent Hero treatment).

After all, getting a copy of Cordelia and a skin for her is rather underwhelming compared to also getting a stat boost for her. Furthermore, since they intend to make Resplendent Heroes purchasable after their distribution period, this would significantly reduce revenue that could be made from these purchases since it would simply only be a skin, thus likely both be priced lower and also be less meaningful to purchase overall.

I don't see anything good to come out of making Resplendent Heroes into purely visual changes. Art and voice work aren't free.

People would buy the pass regardless imo. Statboosts or not.

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, Endriu said:

People would buy the pass regardless imo. Statboosts or not.

Some people would, but there would definitely be more people who would consider it not worth the cost, and you'd definitely still lose out on after-distribution sales.

Edited February 10, 2020 by Ice Dragon

[Endriu]

35 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Some people would, but there would definitely be more people who would consider it not worth the cost, and you'd definitely still lose out on after-distribution sales.

It all depends on the total package. If the package is good, people will buy it. Just add a couple more orbs and stuff.

The package as is does more harm then good and is not well received by a lot of players. It is designed to keep you hooked to it, you get used to having 2x more summoner supports and will not want to cancel the sub for fear of losing the extra stats to your favorite units. I think that's the idea behind it. How can we be cool with that?

[AvatarofDiscord]

I completely forgot to explain my problems with the Pass when i made this post, oh well here goes

1: The Price

It's a meme at this point but $10 a month? For two heroes and 5 orbs? Not exactly worth it

Maybe if it was a year I would consider getting it, but the price is too much

2: QoL inserts

Quality of Life things should not have been added to make the pass more enticing, seriously that just pisses off the fanbase alot

Especially when I would LOVE the AUTO BATTLE thing

3: When they announced it

Side note, dont announce it during an anniversary, that was bad marketing at its finest

4: Ads shown in your face

Nobody likes ads, unless they are funny

Seeing the same copy paste adds for 10 minutes is a quick way to annoy someone

[Endriu]

4 minutes ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

I completely forgot to explain my problems with the Pass when i made this post, oh well here goes

1: The Price

It's a meme at this point but $10 a month? For two heroes and 5 orbs? Not exactly worth it

Maybe if it was a year I would consider getting it, but the price is too much

2: QoL inserts

Quality of Life things should not have been added to make the pass more enticing, seriously that just pisses off the fanbase alot

Especially when I would LOVE the AUTO BATTLE thing

3: When they announced it

Side note, dont announce it during an anniversary, that was bad marketing at its finest

4: Ads shown in your face

Nobody likes ads, unless they are funny

Seeing the same copy paste adds for 10 minutes is a quick way to annoy someone

The pass will forever be remembered as a scummy attempt by a greedy company to squeeze out money. That's what they did.

If it wasn't for the scummy parts of the pass nobody would have cared if they broke the news during anniversary or not. People would have just voiced how they like the package. Adding A VERY lackluster anniversary event (can we even call it an event?) just added insult to injury.

The funniest part for me is how its advertised on google:

The new Feh Pass subscription service is now available.
Plus, the 3rd Anniversary celebration is in full swing!

Lmfao! 

Full swing mode indeed! 

 

[EricaofRenais]

4 hours ago, Othin said:

If it was non-intrusive and just skins, quests, and free units, no one would have grounds to complain. They already sell resources and free units, and skins are something other games sell all the time. I also think adding on non-unique stuff like the idea of increased EXP/SP/HM gain would go over fine because it isn't letting pass players access stuff non-pass ones can't, it just means doing the same thing a bit faster and who's to say what the "right" rate would be. It's not locking non-pass players out of features, or stat increases, or certain Summoner Support setups.

This is my view.  My main problem is the QoL stuff and the ads.  I have sent feedback about both and I will not be buying anymore orbs now because of this as well, not that I bought enough to really make a statement but I will still make my stand.

Edited February 10, 2020 by EricaofRenais

[Ice Dragon]

18 minutes ago, Endriu said:

Just add a couple more orbs and stuff.

There are only so many orbs you can add before you're literally just giving stuff out for free. In fact, if you increase the number of orbs in the quests by just 1 orb per set of quests (half month), you're already at $9.40 worth of orbs for players that switch on and off the subscription to get 3 sets of rewards for each subscription period.

Maybe you should actually try doing the math.

[Zeo]

21 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

There are only so many orbs you can add before you're literally just giving stuff out for free. In fact, if you increase the number of orbs in the quests by just 1 orb per set of quests (half month), you're already at $9.40 worth of orbs for players that switch on and off the subscription to get 3 sets of rewards for each subscription period.

Maybe you should actually try doing the math.

For me, the additional orbs would be justified if we were to remove certain things from the pass without changing the price.

If we removed the QoL changes (that really shouldn't be there) and the additional summoner supports while doubling the orb amount to make up the difference then I wouldn't see the problem. I still wouldn't personally purchase it, but free *5 heroes and the orbs would still be a better deal than any of the packs.

Realistically speaking, just reducing the pass price to $5 or offering a $30-60 deal for the year would be perfectly fine. But I've already stated my opinion on this.

At this point in time, I think that removing those 2 QoL perks and replacing them with something else while simultaneously making them F2P is more realistic than reducing the price of the pass. I really doubt they're going to do the latter.

[Endriu]

33 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

There are only so many orbs you can add before you're literally just giving stuff out for free. In fact, if you increase the number of orbs in the quests by just 1 orb per set of quests (half month), you're already at $9.40 worth of orbs for players that switch on and off the subscription to get 3 sets of rewards for each subscription period.

Maybe you should actually try doing the math.

You assume 10 more free orbs equals 10 less orbs sold. Fair enough. 

That would mean feh's continued decline in revenue could be solved by cutting down on free orbs. Instead of 300 we should only get like 100. That would be 200 orbs sold more per month.

 

 

[Ice Dragon]

50 minutes ago, Zeo said:

For me, the additional orbs would be justified if we were to remove certain things from the pass without changing the price.

I think you may have missed the point of my post? (I'm honestly not sure.)

The problem with adding additional orbs is the fact that the Feh Pass just becomes the exact same price as those orbs. The price of 18 orbs ($9.40 when buying the most efficient orb pack) is almost exactly the current price of the Feh Pass subscription ($9.50).

It would be an absolutely amazing deal for players by default, but that's because everything else included in the subscription would literally be free.

 

50 minutes ago, Zeo said:

At this point in time, I think that removing those 2 QoL perks and replacing them with something else while simultaneously making them F2P is more realistic than reducing the price of the pass.

I honestly would not be surprised if they made the 2 quality of life features free without replacing them at all.

 

34 minutes ago, Endriu said:

You assume 10 more free orbs equals 10 less orbs sold. Fair enough. 

For minnows and dolphins, who are the most conscious about the amount of small purchases, 10 more free orbs (especially those coming from a paid source) is pretty much exactly equal to 10 fewer orbs sold.

For free-to-players, some may be tempted to buy into the package, resulting in pure profit. However, how many more that "some" would be by increasing the value of orbs in the pack so that the rest of the features cost less I do not think is anywhere near enough to offset the loss from minnows and dolphins.

For whales, 10 more free orbs is just a drop in the bucket.

Therefore, changing the number of orbs in the pack will not significantly change the spending habits of whales and free-to-players, but it will change the spending habits of minnows and dolphins at a roughly one-to-one ratio.

 

34 minutes ago, Endriu said:

That would mean feh's continued decline in revenue could be solved by cutting down on free orbs. Instead of 300 we should only get like 100. That would be 200 orbs sold more per month.

Uh huh. Yep. Everything in this world is linearly proportional. Yep.

Nice try.

Edited February 10, 2020 by Ice Dragon

[Zeo]

15 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I think you may have missed the point of my post? (I'm honestly not sure.)

I didn't, actually.

15 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I think you may have missed the point of my post? (I'm honestly not sure.)

The problem with adding additional orbs is the fact that the Feh Pass literally just becomes the exact same price as those orbs. The price of 18 orbs ($9.40 when buying the most efficient orb pack) is almost exactly the current price of the Feh Pass subscription ($9.50).

That's not even the slightest problem. You're giving users what they'd normally pay for plus a plethora of added bonuses on top of that to sweeten the deal further. That sounds like a fairly nonsensical deal. But there's one huge difference between this and the standard pack. You don't have to buy the orb pack every single month. We aren't going to count whales in this equation. They'll pay max price for whatever will give them a leg up. We're going to talk about Minnows, Dolphins and the F2P users that IS wants to convert with this Pass.

Those players will compare the orb pack with the pass and see the pass as an amazing deal (because it actually would be) and potentially buy it. The difference is where as a minnow might buy the 18 orb pack once because they want a leg up pulling a certain unit, they're going to pay the price every month for the pass. Not specifically for the orbs, but for the added benefits. The orbs would be the icing on the cake, but the comparison to the standard orb pack alone would give incentive to purchase the pass. Whale's lives are unchanged and anyone below them get a nice QoL increase for a somewhat reasonable price (not that I think $9.49 is a good price for 18 orbs. I think the orb prices in general are pretty horrible, but that's another discussion entirely).

Basically... the deal would be amazing and actually worth purchasing and there's nothing wrong with that. It would actually cause people to pay consistently that wouldn't otherwise over a period of time which is still more money in IS's pocket in the end. Ironic, really.

15 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I honestly would not be surprised if they made the 2 quality of life features free without replacing them at all.

I'd hope so, even if it would just mean pass users got to "preview" the features.

 

Edited February 10, 2020 by Zeo

[Endriu]

34 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I think you may have missed the point of my post? (I'm honestly not sure.)

The problem with adding additional orbs is the fact that the Feh Pass just becomes the exact same price as those orbs. The price of 18 orbs ($9.40 when buying the most efficient orb pack) is almost exactly the current price of the Feh Pass subscription ($9.50).

It would be an absolutely amazing deal for players by default, but that's because everything else included in the subscription would literally be free.

 

I honestly would not be surprised if they made the 2 quality of life features free without replacing them at all.

 

For minnows and dolphins, who are the most conscious about the amount of small purchases, 10 more free orbs (especially those coming from a paid source) is pretty much exactly equal to 10 fewer orbs sold.

For free-to-players, some may be tempted to buy into the package, resulting in pure profit. However, how many more that "some" would be by increasing the value of orbs in the pack so that the rest of the features cost less I do not think is anywhere near enough to offset the loss from minnows and dolphins.

For whales, 10 more free orbs is just a drop in the bucket.

Therefore, changing the number of orbs in the pack will not significantly change the spending habits of whales and free-to-players, but it will change the spending habits of minnows and dolphins at a roughly one-to-one ratio.

 

Uh huh. Yep. Everything in this world is linearly proportional. Yep.

Nice try.

You don't know if minnows/dolphins wouldn't buy more orbs to make up for the loss of 200 f2p orbs. It hasn't been tried yet. Why wouldn't they?

Lol

They would not only not make up for the loss they would most likely not buy any orbs at all. Totally understandable. I bought 200Eur worth of orbs in December. I wasn't disinclined to buy more but when I saw the pass revealed I felt like this company doesn't deserve any money from me. 

We will see next year. My bet is revenue will further decline (not because of the pass)

Edited February 10, 2020 by Endriu

[XRay]

5 hours ago, Endriu said:

I wouldn't exactly call the pass p2w as those stat boosts, or even the summoner support don't provide a huge advantage imo. However, it is a paid advantage and that shouldn't exist in a game published by a family friendly company.

Stat boosts are huge and extremely important, especially in Aether Raids where an entire strategy is just pumping up your super tank with as much stats as possible, and not having Summoner Support on your super tank is just asking for failure since that is a +13 to total stats. For non competitive modes, most PvE modes are piss easy so stats do not matter as much. For competitive modes though, those stats are crucial to making certain strategies work.

I think paid advantage is fine, within reason of course. If you go to Disneyland, they offer a variety of tickets, and the more you pay for your ticket, the more benefits you get. At least Heroes is playable for free, whereas Disneyland is a completely paid experience and they still treat everyone as first, second, third, etc. class citizens depending on how much the person paid.

2 minutes ago, Endriu said:

You don't know if minnows/dolphins wouldn't buy more orbs to make up for the loss of 200 f2p orbs. It hasn't been tried yet. Why wouldn't they?

That is going to push players away and reduce the player base even further. Reducing free Orbs is a big no-no. Having things taken away from you will not go down well with players. Maybe you might still stick around and play this game, but a lot of players might just stop playing and move on. If enough players quit, I will probably quit too, and that is not an outcome I want.

Edited February 10, 2020 by XRay

[Endriu]

9 minutes ago, XRay said:

Stat boosts are huge and extremely important, especially in Aether Raids where an entire strategy is just pumping up your super tank with as much stats as possible, and not having Summoner Support on your super tank is just asking for failure since that is a +13 to total stats. For non competitive modes, most PvE modes are piss easy so stats do not matter as much. For competitive modes though, those stats are crucial to making certain strategies work.

I think paid advantage is fine, within reason of course. If you go to Disneyland, they offer a variety of tickets, and the more you pay for your ticket, the more benefits you get. At least Heroes is playable for free, whereas Disneyland is a completely paid experience and they still treat everyone as first, second, third, etc. class citizens depending on how much the person paid.

That is going to push players away and reduce the player base even further. Reducing free Orbs is a big no-no. Having things taken away from you will not go down well with players. Maybe you might still stick around and play this game, but a lot of players might just stop playing and move on. If enough players quit, I will probably quit too, and that is not an outcome I want.

Sh... I thought everyone would get my point. Ofc I wasn't seriously implying orb reduction would help generate revenue.  Maybe it wasn't obvious enough.

Alright then, in that case scenario it is directly p2w. I am stuck in tier20, not uberinterested in pvp, so might have underestimated +13 stats.

It's even crazy to think about you could whale for thousands and yet if you refuse to pay 10$ you'd be at a severe disadvantage.

It only strengthens any pass-opponents point. The pass is forced upon us, not just by obnoxious in-game ads but also by limiting our competitiveness.

Like I said I don't care about pvp, but feel for anyone who has spent hundreds of hours dedicated all their resources to become somewhat competitive and now the game laughs in their face.

 

[Humanoid]

The "value" in the included orbs is only relevant an individual if they value the orbs at their nominal price. If the deal instead was $1005 and included a designer handbag with a sticker price of $1000 alongside the Resplendent Heroes I'm not going to think that's a good deal unless I agree that the handbag is worth $1000 and was going to buy it anyway. It's the same with the orbs - I don't value them at the sticker price and would rather just have them removed with a pro-rata reduction in the subscription price.

I don't know how many people are like me. People who are done buying orbs but would be theoretically open to other forms of purchase. But because of what I've described, I don't feel like the Pass is going to be converting very many F2P players into subscribers. $5, no orbs and removal of the QoL restrictions and I might be in.

[XRay]

7 minutes ago, Endriu said:

It's even crazy to think about you could whale for thousands and yet if you refuse to pay 10$ you'd be at a severe disadvantage.

I think most whales would probably just buy it for the resources anyways at that price, with or without the quality of life features. I bought it for the resources and extra copies of Heroes, and I would still buy it if they offered only those things at the same price. I am not sure if there are any whales who got no issue with spending $1,000+ on Orbs but got an issue with spending $10 monthly on a subscription.

[Endriu]

13 minutes ago, XRay said:

I think most whales would probably just buy it for the resources anyways at that price, with or without the quality of life features. I bought it for the resources and extra copies of Heroes, and I would still buy it if they offered only those things at the same price. I am not sure if there are any whales who got no issue with spending $1,000+ on Orbs but got an issue with spending $10 monthly on a subscription.

I should probably change my way of getting my points across. Not everything I say is meant inthe literal sense. 

Anyway, what I meant is the pass becomes first and foremost if you wanna be competitive. Unlike orbs, which you can buy on and off and take monthlong breaks, the pass becomes a mandatory investment each month.

Of course, it isn't MANDATORY with capital letters as some f2p's will manage to stay in top tiers regardless and would prove me wrong if said it was mandatory in the sense you cannot be top tier without. 

Forget it, it's not mandatory. It just provides an advantage and leaves others at a disadvantage.

🙂

Edited February 10, 2020 by Endriu