Mark in the remake

[GlitchWarrior]

I (briefly) worked on an Avatar Insertion mod for FE7. The way I talked it up was that you chose a class, affinity (based on birthday), boon, bane, and four supports. I eventually realized that is a horrible way to do things. Plus, it just... doesn't work for characters who already have seven support partners. Wanna support with Lyn? In that case, gotta axe one of her existing supports. They should just give Avatar!Mark any supports that they want, but they need to be careful when expanding supports for the REST of the cast (which, considering modern IntSys, is something they will do).

[Samz707]

Just Artwork.

I actually like Mark for how minor they are (My first FE experience being Awakening probably had something to do with that since I kinda had problems with Robin from the start.), while I would theoritically like Mark to be maybe made a Dancer-style character (Buffs other units but is either unable or really terrible at fighting.), considering how IS have been treating Lyn lately/avatars in general, if they gave Mark an bigger role he'd turn into an overpowered unit who can romance almost everyone and they'd heavily push Mark X Lyn to the point of being obnoxious.

So yeah just Artwork because I do not trust IS to not turn him into the kind of overpowered player-pandering Avatar that I hate with a passion if they start adding to him in any other way.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Samz707

[Deenward]

On 6/8/2020 at 7:21 PM, Samz707 said:

Just Artwork.

I actually like Mark for how minor they are (My first FE experience being Awakening probably had something to do with that since I kinda had problems with Robin from the start.), while I would theoritically like Mark to be maybe made a Dancer-style character (Buffs other units but is either unable or really terrible at fighting.), considering how IS have been treating Lyn lately/avatars in general, if they gave Mark an bigger role he'd turn into an overpowered unit who can romance almost everyone and they'd heavily push Mark X Lyn to the point of being obnoxious.

So yeah just Artwork because I do not trust IS to not turn him into the kind of overpowered player-pandering Avatar that I hate with a passion if they start adding to him in any other way.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly.

I don't want an FE 7 remake to turn into another FE 12. Fire Emblem has enough worldwide notoriety at this point that you don't need a self-insert to help immerse yourself in the mechanics and world. I'd go a step further like a few others here have already and just nix "Mark" entirely. Even Lyn mode stands totally fine on its own. Removing Mark would just require some inconsequential rewrites here and there. 

[Mylady]

On 2/18/2020 at 10:23 PM, Acacia Sgt said:

Oh, right.

EHL: Eliwood, Hector, Lyn

ECD: Edelgard, Claude, Dimitri

Two men, one woman. Men can pair up only with the female avatar, woman can with both.

Yeah, I can see Lyn supporting male and female Mark, and Raven or Lucius supporting both Mark genders as well.

[null]

I wouldn't mind seeing Mark actually become a customizable (but not necessarily playable) avatar character like Robin and Corrin (not Byleth so much because I don't think Mark shouldn't have dialogue choices). Give some extra dialogue between the tactician and the lords and have a custom portrait for them. I don't think it would hurt the story at all. The characters already address Mark pretty often anyway.

[Topaz Light]

For the Mark name issue, they already solved it with Morgan in Awakening; the Japanese names of all three characters are the same. I'd imagine Mark's default name will be changed to Morgan if FE7 is ever remade, though if for some reason they decide to have multiple EarthBound-style "Don't Care" names for them, I'd love to see Mark be one of the ones for at least a male Avatar.

Personally, I would like Mark to become playable, and for their role to be expanded somewhat... in a sense. I'd like for them to be able to weigh in on conversations with dialogue choices that maybe let you get additional bits of worldbuilding and characterization depending on what you say, but I don't think they should get a full-on added subplot like Kris did in FE12. For Supports, I don't really see anything wrong with the "Support Anyone" model, but paired endings between Mark and characters with canon significant others should be either nonexistent or strictly platonic in nature, i.e. no marrying Dorcas, Bartre, Canas, Louise, Pent, or Karla.

As for how Kris would work as a playable character, I'm thinking bringing back New Mystery's class selection (it's just a lot of fun IMO!) as well as the appearance customization that FE12~14 allowed. While I personally find the idea of how New Mystery lets you allocate the Avatar's stat spread to be way cooler than AwaFates' Boon/Bane system, I do concede that the latter is a lot more straightforward and easy to immediate understand the significance of, so it might be the better pick if an FE7 remake were to try to retain the newcomer-friendly design goals of the original.

[Gregster101]

Just remove Mark. He's such a non entity in the story to begin with, to the point where you even have the option to play the game WITHOUT Mark

Edited July 23, 2020 by Gregster101

[Benice]

Personally, I feel rather strongly that Mark should be nowhere near an FE7 remake. I've made my distaste for FE7's plot no secret, but I am noticing now that it could have been really good and that a remake could easily fix the plot without changing much of it-Making the Black fang better, making Nergal not the worst villain ever, cut the amount of dialogue, (this game is really wordy) and stopping the attempts to be mysterious would go a long ways. However, if Mark stays in the story, I think that it does not bode well for improving the plot.

 

For example-In my opinion, Lyn is the weakest of the lords in FE7. Not because of her backstory, not because of her personality, but the fact that she's sidelined in every single mode of the game, somewhat barring Hector mode, which is second-playthrough exclusive anyways. Mark, in my opinion, is the biggest perpetrator in Lyn's downfall as a character.

She hardly exists in Eliwood mode-The plot would hardly change if she weren't there-Just a bit of dialogue in some chapters.

In Hector mode, she is badly overshadowed by Hector but at least has that one scene on the boat that gives both of them characterization.

In Lyn mode, her backstory is mentioned a grand total of three times. In the prologue, where it's vaguely touched on, in chapter 3, where we learn of the Ganelon bandits, and in chapter 10, when she's talking to her grandfather. That's it. She talks about Sacae a fair bit, and her grandfather a fair bit, but her character is heavily sidelined by Mark. Her role in Lyn mode is literally to tell Mark how much of a genius he is, and how he's saving everyone. If Lyn mode were to focus more on Lyn as a character, gave us more info about her backstory and whatnot, she'd be massively improved-Instead, she gets one scene in Hector Mode where we learn a lot about her.

 

So, all-in-all, I feel that Mark's not as bad as Kris, but he does make Lyn the series' fist Avatarsexual, and her character is badly damaged because of it.

And, even though this has nothing to do with anything else I said, I felt like pointing out that Mark has nothing to do with the plot at all. Say what you will about Robin, but at least they had a reason to be part of Awakening's plot, so I don't think removing Mark would uproot the story, which, for me, is another reason to get rid of him.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Benice

[Peter The Cool]

An FE7 remake would not be the same if we just start to remove things. I only like to see thing of value added to remakes. I don't see how removing him would add any value to the game. Nor do I see removing him as improving the game ether, since he does not play a huge role. Removing the avatar would not change a lot, but I see why anyone would want to rekt the lore. But for the love of god, don't make him Korrin! I would want mark to be a bit more customizable, and maybe even playable but only the way Khris is. Khris was a good avatar, maybe even the best one, because he is not a huge deal in the plot. Korrin is the worst one imo, since every one sucks him up.

[Samz707]

12 hours ago, Benice said:

Personally, I feel rather strongly that Mark should be nowhere near an FE7 remake. I've made my distaste for FE7's plot no secret, but I am noticing now that it could have been really good and that a remake could easily fix the plot without changing much of it-Making the Black fang better, making Nergal not the worst villain ever, cut the amount of dialogue, (this game is really wordy) and stopping the attempts to be mysterious would go a long ways. However, if Mark stays in the story, I think that it does not bode well for improving the plot.

 

For example-In my opinion, Lyn is the weakest of the lords in FE7. Not because of her backstory, not because of her personality, but the fact that she's sidelined in every single mode of the game, somewhat barring Hector mode, which is second-playthrough exclusive anyways. Mark, in my opinion, is the biggest perpetrator in Lyn's downfall as a character.

She hardly exists in Eliwood mode-The plot would hardly change if she weren't there-Just a bit of dialogue in some chapters.

In Hector mode, she is badly overshadowed by Hector but at least has that one scene on the boat that gives both of them characterization.

In Lyn mode, her backstory is mentioned a grand total of three times. In the prologue, where it's vaguely touched on, in chapter 3, where we learn of the Ganelon bandits, and in chapter 10, when she's talking to her grandfather. That's it. She talks about Sacae a fair bit, and her grandfather a fair bit, but her character is heavily sidelined by Mark. Her role in Lyn mode is literally to tell Mark how much of a genius he is, and how he's saving everyone. If Lyn mode were to focus more on Lyn as a character, gave us more info about her backstory and whatnot, she'd be massively improved-Instead, she gets one scene in Hector Mode where we learn a lot about her.

 

So, all-in-all, I feel that Mark's not as bad as Kris, but he does make Lyn the series' fist Avatarsexual, and her character is badly damaged because of it.

And, even though this has nothing to do with anything else I said, I felt like pointing out that Mark has nothing to do with the plot at all. Say what you will about Robin, but at least they had a reason to be part of Awakening's plot, so I don't think removing Mark would uproot the story, which, for me, is another reason to get rid of him.

Is Lyn really an avatar-sexual though? her praise for Mark is still less than Awakening treats Robin and I wouldn't quite call her an Avatarsexual since she can't even romance Mark. (Granted, IS have been trying their hardest to retroactively make her one with Awakening/Heroes/Warriors, which I frankly hate.)

I honestly like how Mark is just a random nobody, most of the FE recruitables could very easily be removed, you could just have Dorcas not show up in Eliwood mode and it would change nothing, Robin meanwhile basically gets worshipped from the start and ends up being super important and is pretty much highly OP as a unit to the point where I frankly find them an obnoxious mary sue-ish character,It bugged me when Awakening was my first game and seeing how FE7 handled Mark, I honestly prefer Mark, who's just a random dude who can't even fight, it actually fits the genre better (Since you technically don't directly control one unit in FE, you're ordering everyone around, a bit like how other strategy games like Command and Conquer handled it.) and I think you can actually,well, insert yourself into Mark rather than Robin, who just feels like a bland character rather than an actual self-insert.

So yeah I think Mark being a bit of a nobody is actually a good thing as it makes them feel more like a natural character rather than some special snowflake who exists so you can marry your waifus and be praised by pretty much everyone.

FE7 also as far as I remember, never dictates what the player should be feeling with the dialogue, it's not like Awakening/Three Houses which insists that you're great pals with the main lord, in FE7 ,sure Lyn/Eliwood/Hector like the Avatar but the game never has Mark state that they're the most important person in their life and they're the best friends ever, which really annoyed me in Awakening since Chrom is kinda terrible and I hate him but the game insists we're best buddies even though I'd frankly rather stab him in the back, I think the only real way it does that is just being vague in saying Mark gave some sort of dirty look at Serra, it doesn't insist you actually find Serra endearing like Awakening does with Lissa for instance. (Which fell flat for me since Lissa is frankly one of the most annoying characters in the series.)

 

Edited August 29, 2020 by Samz707

[Benice]

16 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

Is Lyn really an avatar-sexual though? her praise for Mark is still less than Awakening treats Robin and I wouldn't quite call her an Avatarsexual since she can't even romance Mark.

Less than Robin? Yeah, probably. (Haven't played Awakening, so I wouldn't know that well) He still absolutely gets praised a ton by Lyn, and to me, her dialogue frequently reads as her having feelings for Mark-Her death quotes in both Lyn and Hector mode involve her saying, (If I recall correctly) "But I still so...so much...Oh... [Tactician]..." or "I'm sorry everyone...[Tactician]...I failed..." Not to mention her highly superfluous praise of Mark throughout all of Lyn mode. She can't romance Mark, but boy does she ever lay the praise on thick.

28 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

I honestly like how Mark is just a random nobody, most of the FE recruitables could very easily be removed, you could just have Dorcas not show up in Eliwood mode and it would change nothing,

But then there's absolutely no reason for Mark to exist-All he does is take away even more screentime from Lyn. He adds nothing to the plot, has nothing to do with the plot and never changes the plot-he just gets praised.

31 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

Robin meanwhile basically gets worshipped from the start and ends up being super important and is pretty much highly OP as a unit to the point where I frankly find them an obnoxious mary sue-ish character

But he fits in with the story-Even if they are praised a lot, the story would be different if they weren't there-They are truly steeped in the plot.

37 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

I honestly prefer Mark, who's just a random dude who can't even fight, it actually fits the genre better (Since you technically don't directly control one unit in FE, you're ordering everyone around, a bit like how other strategy games like Command and Conquer handled it.)

That is a personal preference thing, but there isn't anything wrong with how Robin fights and commands.

39 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

and I think you can actually,well, insert yourself into Mark rather than Robin, who just feels like a bland character rather than an actual self-insert.

How? Mark barely exists-You get no dialogue options, no dialogue, no supports, nothing. You can use your imagination, but while Robin also has a defined personality, they also technically get to make important decisions like a real strategist, (something Mark never does,) can choose who you want to support and build relationships with, etc.

44 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

So yeah I think Mark being a bit of a nobody is actually a good thing as it makes them feel more like a natural character rather than some special snowflake who exists so you can marry your waifus and be praised by pretty much everyone.

To me, he really doesn't feel like a natural character simply because of how absent he was-There's nothing wrong with Mark not being, "Ultimate No. 1 Protagonist who needs lords!" but he, especially in Eli/Hector modes, does absolutely nothing.

49 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

FE7 also as far as I remember, never dictates what the player should be feeling with the dialogue,

Eeeeeehh...Mark lacks dialogue, but the game does push you being friends with the lords. I'll stick to Lyn, since the dialogue for Mark in Hec/Eli modes is few and far between.

Spoiler

• Lyn: Thank you. I'm better now. Tactician, I want—I must become stronger so I may avenge my father's death! Yesterday's battle taught me something. I won't become stronger by sitting here alone. Tactician, tell me you'll train me, that you'll let me travel with you!

(Mark speaks to Lyn)

• Lyn: You will? That's wonderful! Thank you! Oh, thank you! We'll be better off working together, I know it. You'll be my master strategist, and I'll be your peerless warrior! We can do it! Right?

Spoiler

• Lyn: Tactician... I'm sorry. This changes everything. What will you do, Tactician? You...want me to decide? Of course, your companionship would do much to ease my journey, but... It's going to be so dangerous.

(Mark speaks to Lyn)

• Lyn: You'll come? Are you sure? Thank you! Let me ask once again for your friendship and your aid.

Spoiler

• Lyn: I am not running away. I will be back...someday. I'll be stronger... I will break their swords beneath me like twigs beneath a stallion's hooves. I will avenge my people. I'll do everything in my power.
• Sain: When the time comes, bring me with you.
• Lyn: Sain.
• Kent: Don't forget me, either.
• Lyn: Kent...Oh! You, too, Tactician? I... You're... Thank you.

Spoiler

I am Wil, master marksman. No, the pleasure is mine!

Etc. The game does seem to heavily imply that everybody loves you and you love everyone...Barring Serra, who is a comedic relief character.

1 hour ago, Samz707 said:

it doesn't insist you actually find Serra endearing like Awakening does with Lissa for instance. (

That's because their roles are different-Serra is the over-the-top, ridiculous comedic relief character. You're not supposed to find her endearing. Lissa isn't-I can't speak to whether I like Lissa or not, (again, haven't played FE13,) but comparing a character you're not supposed to like and a character you are supposed to like isn't that fair.

[Samz707]

2 hours ago, Benice said:

Less than Robin? Yeah, probably. (Haven't played Awakening, so I wouldn't know that well) He still absolutely gets praised a ton by Lyn, and to me, her dialogue frequently reads as her having feelings for Mark-Her death quotes in both Lyn and Hector mode involve her saying, (If I recall correctly) "But I still so...so much...Oh... [Tactician]..." or "I'm sorry everyone...[Tactician]...I failed..." Not to mention her highly superfluous praise of Mark throughout all of Lyn mode. She can't romance Mark, but boy does she ever lay the praise on thick.

But then there's absolutely no reason for Mark to exist-All he does is take away even more screentime from Lyn. He adds nothing to the plot, has nothing to do with the plot and never changes the plot-he just gets praised.

But he fits in with the story-Even if they are praised a lot, the story would be different if they weren't there-They are truly steeped in the plot.

That is a personal preference thing, but there isn't anything wrong with how Robin fights and commands.

How? Mark barely exists-You get no dialogue options, no dialogue, no supports, nothing. You can use your imagination, but while Robin also has a defined personality, they also technically get to make important decisions like a real strategist, (something Mark never does,) can choose who you want to support and build relationships with, etc.

To me, he really doesn't feel like a natural character simply because of how absent he was-There's nothing wrong with Mark not being, "Ultimate No. 1 Protagonist who needs lords!" but he, especially in Eli/Hector modes, does absolutely nothing.

Eeeeeehh...Mark lacks dialogue, but the game does push you being friends with the lords. I'll stick to Lyn, since the dialogue for Mark in Hec/Eli modes is few and far between.

  Reveal hidden contents

• Lyn: Thank you. I'm better now. Tactician, I want—I must become stronger so I may avenge my father's death! Yesterday's battle taught me something. I won't become stronger by sitting here alone. Tactician, tell me you'll train me, that you'll let me travel with you!

(Mark speaks to Lyn)

• Lyn: You will? That's wonderful! Thank you! Oh, thank you! We'll be better off working together, I know it. You'll be my master strategist, and I'll be your peerless warrior! We can do it! Right?

  Reveal hidden contents

• Lyn: Tactician... I'm sorry. This changes everything. What will you do, Tactician? You...want me to decide? Of course, your companionship would do much to ease my journey, but... It's going to be so dangerous.

(Mark speaks to Lyn)

• Lyn: You'll come? Are you sure? Thank you! Let me ask once again for your friendship and your aid.

  Reveal hidden contents

• Lyn: I am not running away. I will be back...someday. I'll be stronger... I will break their swords beneath me like twigs beneath a stallion's hooves. I will avenge my people. I'll do everything in my power.
• Sain: When the time comes, bring me with you.
• Lyn: Sain.
• Kent: Don't forget me, either.
• Lyn: Kent...Oh! You, too, Tactician? I... You're... Thank you.

  Reveal hidden contents

I am Wil, master marksman. No, the pleasure is mine!

Etc. The game does seem to heavily imply that everybody loves you and you love everyone...Barring Serra, who is a comedic relief character.

That's because their roles are different-Serra is the over-the-top, ridiculous comedic relief character. You're not supposed to find her endearing. Lissa isn't-I can't speak to whether I like Lissa or not, (again, haven't played FE13,) but comparing a character you're not supposed to like and a character you are supposed to like isn't that fair.

Yeah but Serra actually comes off as more endearing frankly because characters react to her being a brat, while Lissa acts like a brat for frankly more annoying reasons yet nah it's just endearing apparently. (and just in general, the character quirks in Awakening are just flat-out annoying instead of endearing unlike how the devs clearly intended considering Robin's reactions are more of amusement rather than "Oh god please shut up".)  So the game trying to dictate what I feel falls flat and only serves to further make me hate the characters.

Robin literally even has a skill from the start to level up 50 percent faster so they'll quickly surpass the rest of the playable cast very quickly in stats, become frankly relatively OP considering how kinda terrible your starting line up is, they can also use both magic and swords from the start in their "Tactician" class, which is less about being a Tactician and more just being an Unit with both magic and Swords, from the start. (So they're even more versatile than any of your starting characters and can do something that used to be a promoted class in other games.)

Pretty much most of the starting characters declare Robin an "Tactician" for the first level, where you defeat 7-ish bandits in a simple stage that lacks even have a single tile bonus, it's literally just a basic bandit fight but somehow Robin is all great and a valuable asset and should be trusted to lead the Shepards despite being highly suspicious beforehand, being someone who claims to not know who they are yet know's Chrom's name and suspected of being an Assassin.

Lissa
Lucky for the town, we were close by. But holy wow, Robin! You were incredible! Swords, sorcery, AND tactics! Is there anything you can't do?"

Chrom
Frederick, the Shepherds could use someone with Robin's talents. We've brigands and unruly neighbors, all looking to bloody our soil. Would you really have us lose such an able tactician? Besides, I believe his/her story, odd as it might be.

By that Logic, Lyn is an Tactician considering how she's defeated 2 bandits without tile bonuses in the prologue of FE7, the stage is pretty much as simple as an FE stage can be outside of RNG elements, she's already most of the way to what the Shepards consider an "Able Tactician", again ,the level is pretty simple aside from having to adapt to the fact the Awakening cast are weaker than your average FE cast. 

Remember, this is literally the first level, against 7 bandits, with no real room for Tactical stuff, it's practically a JRPG battle where you just take turns hitting each other.

Again, Robin is a highly suspicious individual but they stepped in to fight Bandits exactly once, CLEARLY we should all praise them and have them lead our army, clearly fighting 7 bandits that one times means they cannot be any sorta of foul-intended individual.

 

As for Dialogue options, yeah sure they could enhance it, if done well, Three Houses has dialogue options and they're frankly so bad they only serve to make me feel even more disconnected:

• Ignoring certain dialogue choices as characters clearly react to a different choice.
• Choices where an option that would annoy the other person but being something I'd imagine alot of people would say not being avaliable, (Like telling Rhea to stop treating you like a member of the Church.) seemingly because the devs have no idea how the game would proceed if you antagonized certain characters so they just didn't give you the option.
• "Choices" where obvious options are flat out lacking, like having to 50/50 guess where a character I've never interacted with (Felix) is because another character (Sylvian) asked me where they were and I don't know but a "I don't know" option isn't avaliable so it's a 50/50 coin toss between the locations.
• More than a handful (Infact every single one so far to be blunt) where it's clearly a "Get a support point." moment, where it's less about actual roleplay and more the game wanting you to say the "correct" choice that will get you a support point. (Such as student's asking questions, where it's blatantly clear you're supposed to say what they WANT to hear, instead of what they should do, which is all the more obvious when you're supposed to be a Teacher.)
• Lacking obvious choices, of course I have to wait til' after 
  Spoiler

  Jeralt dies

  to find how Leonie and Jeralt met, heaven forbid I go ask my Virtual-Dad "Hey this person claims to know you, how'd you meet?" because that has to be locked behind a support after a certain moment in the plot despite the circumstances meaning most people would probably ask Jeralt about it.

So Three Houses actually takes me out of the experience with it's frankly terrible implementation of dialogue while in Awakening, the game is blatantly trying to heavily pander your ego from the start, to the point where as my first game, before I even really knew what the term "Avatar worship" was, it felt incredibly awkward and forced and then Robin is also blatantly overpowered compared to your other units, which again makes it feel like the game is trying to suck up to you in an obnoxious fashion, Even three Houses feels like its trying to pander when everyone acts like you're oh so great for winning the mock battle and how even Berndetta, the character with a persecution complex and a deep fear of others, can have their C support where they warm up to Byleth before you even get your first battle where characters can actually die (And I'm not joking, I accidently unlocked Bernie's C Support before I even took her into a single battle that wasn't the mock battle.) and the decision to skip Byleth's first month teaching, then retroactively have characters try to suggest your pals now feels like contrived forced BS to make everyone again, like Byleth not because they're Byleth but because they're player one and everyone needs to be practically best buddies with them right away, you get one-two interactions with most characters then oh woops, sudden time-skip and they like you now! (Even though Byleth has the personality of a plank of wood, minus the usefulness of a plank of a wood.), Oh sorry Bernie, you used to hide in the corner during class? too bad I've literally never seen this since it's pre-time skip so I don't care at all. 

So yeah, I feel the way choices and the "More in-depth" character interactions were handled in newer games are so bad they're actually worse than Mute Mark and constantly take me out of the game, I don't feel like I'm a character in this setting with Three houses, I feel like I'm a terrible video game protagonist who everyone loves for merely existing and all of my choices just dictate whenever or not someone will start being pals with me sooner rather than later.

 

Mark's praise feels more earned . (And the fact it's coming from a relatively inexperienced in combat character and Mark NOT being suspected of being a possible assassin before-hand, in additon to actually fufilling a more proper Commander roll instead of an OP Commando who can do almost anything like Robin , makes it fit alot more.)

Plus, I feel like the "Tactician" character actually hiding behind the army instead of leading the charge and actually having to rely on the other for protection actually makes them feel less Mary-sueish than Robin (Who I've even seen consistently claimed to be one of the best Units in FE.) and actually fits the "Tactican" class.

 

Edited August 29, 2020 by Samz707

[Benice]

I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree here.

5 hours ago, Samz707 said:

Yeah but Serra actually comes off as more endearing frankly because characters react to her being a brat, while Lissa acts like a brat for frankly more annoying reasons yet nah it's just endearing apparently.

That is very much a matter of taste; For me, I'd rather have the self-insert not be very self-inserty than be a character who doesn't exist in the plot and is irrelevant.

5 hours ago, Samz707 said:

As for Dialogue options, yeah sure they could enhance it, if done well, Three Houses has dialogue options and they're frankly so bad they only serve to make me feel even more disconnected:

Doesn't mean they couldn't have done it at least once. I feel like Mark was very half-assed, to be honest. Again, my biggest problem with him is that he does nothing for the plot and hinders other characters a lot.

5 hours ago, Samz707 said:

Even though Byleth has the personality of a plank of wood,

And what kind of personality does Mark have?

5 hours ago, Samz707 said:

Mark's praise feels more earned .

Why? I've killed off well over two-thirds of the cast in my ironman, and Oswin is still telling me that I'm doing a great job.

Also, the fact that you think Mark>Robin still kinda doesn't change that Mark is a negative influence on the plot.

[Samz707]

17 hours ago, Benice said:

I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree here.

That is very much a matter of taste; For me, I'd rather have the self-insert not be very self-inserty than be a character who doesn't exist in the plot and is irrelevant.

Doesn't mean they couldn't have done it at least once. I feel like Mark was very half-assed, to be honest. Again, my biggest problem with him is that he does nothing for the plot and hinders other characters a lot.

And what kind of personality does Mark have?

Why? I've killed off well over two-thirds of the cast in my ironman, and Oswin is still telling me that I'm doing a great job.

Also, the fact that you think Mark>Robin still kinda doesn't change that Mark is a negative influence on the plot.

I admit I never really felt like Mark dragged down the plot massively, I felt like his existence kinda justified how Lyn and her group were able to have an organized proper group (Though I'm sure you could argue Kent and Sain could easily fill that role since they're also military.), I kinda feel like Lyn/Mark sorta justify each other in the plot a bit, Mark justifies how a nomadic woman with no real military training is able to lead a group while Lyn's story kinda justifies why exactly Eliwood would trust this random no-name tactician since he's known for helping the rightful heir that one time. (As opposed to Awakening, where Robin is highly suspicious but they killed exactly 7  bandits therefore must be a cool dude and a good Tactician despite Robin never even calling themselves a Tactician before that point if I remember.), I admit I'm a bit biased here since I'm kinda thinking of how Awakening managed to completely screw it's self-insert character over so when I played FE7 later, I was kinda impressed with how I felt it was handled much better, I also would not object to an FE7 Remake making Mark fully optional, even for Lyn mode.

I think Mark having no personality works? one of my problems with self-insert characters is that they sometimes feel like a really generic personality character,  Mark's hinted to be a little bit of I guess the Straight man (Serious person in a group of misfits) with Serra (and maybe being from Bern and wanting to hide it.) but other than that you're free to imagine what they're like, yeah it's not as much as a proper RPG game with choices but I feel it kinda works how you're left to imagine what exactly they're saying generally as opposed to other attempts at player-inserts,  for me, an FE avatar would either need to be a blank slate or require ALOT of dialogue choices for more than a good few potential personalties to work and for a small GBA game I'm not surprised they went with the first option, Two different people's interpretations of Mark can be different characters while Robin/Byleth are mostly the exact same character except for who they S-ranked, I feel, so I feel like I can headcanon my own Mark while Robin/Byleth feel more like fixed characters that I can change their lover/apperance and that's it, so I feel the kinda "Mystery" around Mark lets you actually think up your own character for them.

Okay bit admittingly personal here, but in the case of FE7 (I presume you're referencing the ranking system as I don't remember Oswin praising you during the plot but I admit I could be wrong.), you can get insulted in the ending if you do poorly enough and certain characters (depending on who you gave the Afra's drops to) will insult you in the stats screen after beating the game if you're low enough, I fully admit it's a very wonky system and it's way too easy to avoid getting insulted but for me, there's at least the potential of doing poorly enough, Awakening and to my knowledge of Three Houses, do not have any sort of ranking system, Robin can get their support with Virion where they're praised for "Not making sacrifices" after you've lost people and in general Awakening is seemingly written with Casual mode entirely in mind and not classic, I would like an FE7 remake to take elements of Echoes, and have characters get angry with Mark (Like Clive does with Alm) if their friends/lovers die but IS don't seem to want to put that effort in, I admit it's a bit of a problem but I think it's more justified in FE7's case, you can get insulted and have "To this day, historians look back and question how these incomprehensible strategies ever led to victory." as your ending card, it's way too easy to stay high in the ranking system I admit, but it's also the only FE game with a self-insert to actually be willing to insult the player like this, I would love a Remake to have Fiora or Lyn tear into Mark if Florina dies and other death reactions but I think it's more a case of IS simply not wanting to do those at all. 

I kinda get what you mean with Lyn but I think that's more due to her having to step down from Main character once Eliwood/Hector get involved (Since well, they're the ones who are actually in FE6.) than just Mark being around, considering how Mark can be removed on a new-game plus yet I think only Eliwood/Hector get a small amount of extra dialogue in that situation and not Lyn.

 

 

 

[Paper Jam]

I'd say "Bigger role, more interactions with the lords" specifically because he should have been present in chapter 11H, and Hector and Matthew (and Uther, really) should have known him from there.

[GlitchWarrior]

Wait, no, we've been thinking about this all wrong.

I say, keep Mark, make them more customizable, I like having a personal character. Heck, give them Bioware-style dialogue options. But don't make them PLAYABLE. Between chapters, you'll be at various "base camps" that control sorta like the Monastery. However, Mark never takes the field themself. You could even build support like this. While most characters build support with each other the traditional way, Mark would build support with them based on how "well" they're used. They'd have much slower support gains than the rest, but instead, depending on who was fielded and how many of the rating benchmarks they hit, they'd build more support. For example, say you got 5* Tactics, 5* Combat, and 5* Experience on a given chapter, you'd get the maximum support gain for that map. It would scale by chapter, so a map like "Birds of a Feather" wouldn't be a lot. However, it would scale based on chapter, and maps like "Cog of Destiny" and "Victory or Death" would have massive support yields for those maps if getting three 5* ratings.
You could also build support at the Base Camps, by appealing to each unit's interests: setting Sain up with Fiora, calling the third magic type "Elder" magic in front of Canas, and complimenting Guy's bladework would all build support in some way.

[Samz707]

.

On 9/1/2020 at 6:58 PM, GlitchWarrior said:

Wait, no, we've been thinking about this all wrong.

I say, keep Mark, make them more customizable, I like having a personal character. Heck, give them Bioware-style dialogue options. 

This would probably only work in an adaptation more than a Remake (Unless they that idea of giving Mark Dialogue options like GlitchWarrior suggested and do it well.) but in chapter 24, a Woman in a house says ""Do you know anyone named Mark? You see, I once helped out a weary traveler... who just so happened to be a brilliant tactician! Cared for the soldiers... Won battle after battle with no casualties... Ah, I wonder if we'll meet again..."  which is kinda interesting considering how Mark is implied to have told Eliwood they weren't in Bern before when Eliwood asked Mark where they were born in Chapter 22.

“Hello, Mark. So you’re still awake. Mark, do you know Bern well? No, nor do I… Nothing more than I’ve heard at the court. I’m sure that, with all of your travels, you know more than I. By the way, Mark, where were you born? Before you met Lyndis in Sacae, where were you? If it’s difficult to speak about, you needn’t worry. It’s just that we’ve been together for so long, and I really know almost nothing about you. If you don’t mind, won’t you tell me about yourself? I would like to learn more about you and your life.”

I've always kinda personally head-canon'd this as Mark actually being a Defector of some sort from Bern, kinda like Heath, Bern is a highly military country and Mark is supposed to be a good Tactician. (and probably is on your average playthrough.)

So maybe if you get that conversation in a remake with in-depth dialogue /in an non-game adaptation where Mark has a personality (Since vague-voiceless self-inserts only really work in games.), maybe the Lords hear about this and confront Mark about it.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Samz707

[Wolfgang]

Tbh Mark is so irrelevant to the story, that you can play the game without them. The only thing they have is the tactician bonus, and that isn't that important anyway. If they got deleted I wouldn't miss them, however, just making them stay the same would be fine for me as well.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Wolfgang

[Seazas]

On 9/2/2020 at 1:44 PM, Wolfgang said:

Tbh Mark is so irrelevant to the story, that you can play the game without them. The only thing they have is the tactician bonus, and that isn't that important anyway. If they got deleted I wouldn't miss them, however, just making them stay the same would be fine for me as well.

Unfortunately, dear cultured user (Wolfgang deserve all the love). We're stuck with Mark purely due to the devs making Lyn borderline obsessive over him.

[ping]

Remove them. Mark exists only as a medium for characters to tell the player how smart and genius and awesome they are and doesn't add anything to the story. Even in Lyn Mode, Mark doesn't really contribute anything - there's no reason why Kent and Sain wouldn't run into Lyn without her meeting Mark beforehand, and that was his only real contribution to the plot.

[Samz707]

14 hours ago, Seazas said:

Unfortunately, dear cultured user (Wolfgang deserve all the love). We're stuck with Mark purely due to the devs making Lyn borderline obsessive over him.

Yeah I like Mark personally but I do worry that any FE7 remake is going to go full Heroes-Lyn on us and just have her become Faye-levels of obessed, where her critical hit/level up quotes constantly mention Mark.

[RomanFlour]

Mark I'd be somewhat fine with, though he could work more as a more proper character instead of an Avatar. Also he should be an archer if playable.

[Samz707]

I know this is really dumb but the thought came to me, what if Mark could actually die in the FE7 remake if he's a unit, the lords/characters get unique grieving dialogue (Hopefully EVERYONE would have grieving dialogue for deaths in general rather than it for some reason not existing like in TH...) but then the story mostly continues as if you didn't have Mark aside from the occasional mention.

Just have the Player Character be disposable in the end like most other units.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Samz707

[Benice]

3 hours ago, Samz707 said:

what if Mark could actually die in the FE7 remake if he's a unit

I am sold, let me kill the avatar. Please. It is unironically a good idea, though.

On 9/4/2020 at 11:57 AM, Samz707 said:

Yeah I like Mark personally but I do worry that any FE7 remake is going to go full Heroes-Lyn on us and just have her become Faye-levels of obessed, where her critical hit/level up quotes constantly mention Mark.

This is extremely late, but I'd argue that she already is like this-She constantly talks about Mark in her mode, and her death quotes always mention them. Mark really drags her down as a character already, honestly.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Benice

[joevar]

6 hours ago, Benice said:

I am sold, let me kill the avatar. Please. It is unironically a good idea, though.

Yes please. if we cant remove him, make him disposable

9 hours ago, Samz707 said:

Just have the Player Character be disposable in the end like most other units.

FE7 have always been about the lord near endgame to me, the game should be able to move on without Mark midgame

Edited October 14, 2020 by joevar