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Harvey

Why support conversations don't refer other characters?

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I've observed many conversations and something struck me. Basically, they don't use other characters as means of conversation but rather just between themselves. Like for example, you have a support conversation like for example, Lyn and Florina talk about each other and yet, Lyn doesn't ask her about her sisters.

As far as I can tell, the only conversations that talked about other characters besides them both were Oswin and Matthew who talked about Hector and some conversations with Roy from other units.

 

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It probably would be awkward in certain situations. Like generally in Fire Emblem non-story important characters can die completely. Especially in three houses where you mix and match who you recruit, and might have to fight the possibly mentioned character at some point.

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I'd blame permadeath and the ability to miss recruiting someone. Nino's support don't mention Jaffar I think- other than theirs' together of course- because it's possible to have Nino, but miss Jaffar entirely.

Read MakalovxAstrid in PoR, and you'll see it is possible to write supports with permadeath taken into consideration. But, this would require extra effort, effort and with as many supports as there are now, permadeath consideration could create a small mountain of additional text. Too much effort methinks for the writers, not enough payoff.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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Story-relevant characters that can't die otherwise game over do get mentioned in support conversations:

In Gatrie and Marcia's support conversations, Gatrie goes off to challenge Ike to a duel hoping to impress Marcia (naturally, Gatrie gets his arse handed to him by Ike and has several injuries owing to Ike not holding back during sparring).

Similarly, in Largo and Muarim's support conversations, they do a weightlifting competition that starts with lifting hams and ends with lifting people: Largo lifting another ham, and Muarim lifting Mist, and they don't know which is heavier so they call it a draw. 

Hubert and Ferdinand's support conversations in Three Houses refer to Edelgard a lot; they argue over what kind of advisor Edelgard needs. 

 

And those are just three examples. 

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They do, but onyl with characters that can't die, usually in later games. For instance, Robin appears in Tharja's support with Frederick, and Chrom will always appear in Lucina's sibling supports. I think they dont have nore than two characters in a support because of the fact that anybody can end up dead, and so it would break the support.

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Lords and avatars usually gets mentioned since they can't die.

For example, Robin, Chrom, Corrin, Alm get mentioned respectively by Tharja, Cordelia, Camilla and Faye in supports.

Many retainers like Jakob, Frederick, Hubert, Oswin and Matthew like you mentioned, etc... also talk about their respective Lords. 

 

5 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

I cannot think of an example in which somebody else is mentioned but that somebody is not a Lord.

Sometimes it happens if one of the characters has a sibling. Thea talks about Juno quickly in her support with Shanna. Xander and Camilla also talk about Leo and Elise in their support. Minerva talks about Maria, Michalis and the whitewings in a few supports in Warriors.

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9 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

I cannot think of an example in which somebody else is mentioned but that somebody is not a Lord.

Above you!  😉

Anyway, for a unit to be mentioned, it's assumed that they're recruited and alive.  Though Shanna/Juno makes an exception (Thea is mentioned in the B support).

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27 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

As is, some of those FE6 & 7 supports that feature someone else don't make much sense if someone died or wasn't recruited. :

Jaffar: …I have a favor I want you to do. If I die…care for Nino.

...And if Nino died already? This needs an alternative version where Jaffar asks Legault to care for Nino's grave, or something.

This actually works fine, because Nino can't die, just retreat,. This is true for most characters who are important to FE6's plot, though I think Rebecca gets permadeath despite being Wolt's mother.

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39 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

I cannot think of an example in which somebody else is mentioned but that somebody is not a Lord.

Largo and Muarim’s support conversations mention Mist. I gave that example two replies above yours.

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1 hour ago, LoneStar said:

It probably would be awkward in certain situations. Like generally in Fire Emblem non-story important characters can die completely. Especially in three houses where you mix and match who you recruit, and might have to fight the possibly mentioned character at some point.

That didn't stop them from having Leonie's B-support with Byleth unlock at probably the worst possible time, lmao

 

But yeah, I think it is to normally avoid characters talking about dead characters as if they were alive.  And if everyone were to only ever talk about the few characters that can't die, then it'd be the same kind of protag-felatio experience that FE:Fates was, and almost nobody liked that.

I wonder if the support system will ever change/evolve beyond the traditional C-A/S conversations system it currently is - and if they'll ever make it more dynamic.

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1 hour ago, Ertrick36 said:

That didn't stop them from having Leonie's B-support with Byleth unlock at probably the worst possible time, lmao

 

But yeah, I think it is to normally avoid characters talking about dead characters as if they were alive.  And if everyone were to only ever talk about the few characters that can't die, then it'd be the same kind of protag-felatio experience that FE:Fates was, and almost nobody liked that.

I wonder if the support system will ever change/evolve beyond the traditional C-A/S conversations system it currently is - and if they'll ever make it more dynamic.

Three houses is about as dynamic as it will ever need to be, B+ supports for some pairings to allow for additional conversations works just fine, any more complex like requiring other characters supports to be cleared would overcomplicate matters and just be a pain when you really just want to see a specific pairing.

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They are a minority of support conversations, but there are quite a few of them once you start looking. I think I will add one yet to be mentioned support for each game with supports except Three Houses as they don't have transcripts of the support convos on the main page yet (and I am not going to waste time searching without ctrl f):

Bors x Barth (FE6) - They have a discussion about Barth's choice to protect Lilina instead of dying by Hector's side.

Serra x Sain (FE7) - They start shipping the three Lords of FE7 and it is kinda funny.

Eirika x Tana (FE8) - They both start complaining about how over protective their brothers Ephraim and Innes are...

Ike x Oscar (FE9) - Oscar talk about almost all of the Greil Mercenaries in their C Support and continues to mention them as it continues.

Bord x Kris & Cord x Kris (FE12) - In which they both talk about how similar Bord and Cord are, try to find ways of distinguishing them, and how irritated they are that people confuse them. Seeing both conversation at the same time makes the whole thing even funnier.

Noire x Robin F (FE13) - Noire talk about wishing she had Robin F as a mother instead of Tharja...

Odin x Laslow (FE14) - They reminisce about how odd it is the two of them and Selena have grown so used to the world they arrived in, and even remember all three of their real names...

Delthea x Clair (FE15) - Delthea makes things a bit awkward by letting Clair know she has the hots from Clair's brother Clive, and Clair has to break the news about Mathilda. As the support continues Clair begins asking after Delthea's brother Luthier at first to make Delthea realize how awkward her crush is, and latter to connect with how much they care about their siblings.

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1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

They are a minority of support conversations, but there are quite a few of them once you start looking. I think I will add one yet to be mentioned support for each game with supports except Three Houses as they don't have transcripts of the support convos on the main page yet (and I am not going to waste time searching without ctrl f):

Bors x Barth (FE6) - They have a discussion about Barth's choice to protect Lilina instead of dying by Hector's side.

Serra x Sain (FE7) - They start shipping the three Lords of FE7 and it is kinda funny.

Eirika x Tana (FE8) - They both start complaining about how over protective their brothers Ephraim and Innes are...

Ike x Oscar (FE9) - Oscar talk about almost all of the Greil Mercenaries in their C Support and continues to mention them as it continues.

Bord x Kris & Cord x Kris (FE12) - In which they both talk about how similar Bord and Cord are, try to find ways of distinguishing them, and how irritated they are that people confuse them. Seeing both conversation at the same time makes the whole thing even funnier.

Noire x Robin F (FE13) - Noire talk about wishing she had Robin F as a mother instead of Tharja...

Odin x Laslow (FE14) - They reminisce about how odd it is the two of them and Selena have grown so used to the world they arrived in, and even remember all three of their real names...

Delthea x Clair (FE15) - Delthea makes things a bit awkward by letting Clair know she has the hots from Clair's brother Clive, and Clair has to break the news about Mathilda. As the support continues Clair begins asking after Delthea's brother Luthier at first to make Delthea realize how awkward her crush is, and latter to connect with how much they care about their siblings.

to add to this, Fir and Shin's supports make an indirect reference to Sue, and a direct reference to Dayan. Sue's supports with Shin make a direct reference to Dayan, and Shin's supports with Dayan make a direct reference to Sue. Kent's supports with Fiora make a direct reference to Florina, and pretty much answer why Lyn doesn't ask Florina about her sisters. Farina's supports with Kent make an indirect reference to Fiora, and mention Marcus, Oswin, and Merlinus by name.

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Ward and Lot mention each other in their Echidna supports because FE6 supports are, in fact, top tier.

9 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

...Nothing about recruiting Lugh or Hugh requires recruiting or keeping Raigh alive. The entire, if short, C Support needs a rewrite.

Technically, it is canonical that Raigh got a nosferatu tome from Hugh. So Hugh has met Raigh whether you recruit him or not.

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10 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Technically, it is canonical that Raigh got a nosferatu tome from Hugh. So Hugh has met Raigh whether you recruit him or not.

*Rereads the RaighxHugh Support old translation version*

Hugh: There you are! I never would’ve guessed you’d be here in this army. I’ve been looking all over for you!

Okay, I see how this would mean a long while ago and pre-C12 FE6. It's just kinda easy to forget the specifics. Add a little more clarification to HughxLugh that explains the first meeting of Hugh with Raigh then. Not like FE6's supports can't be longer, but IDK if there is actually a difference here compared to later games. And measuring the average Support convo length for each FE with them sounds too complicated and lengthy to do it myself.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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16 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I'd blame permadeath and the ability to miss recruiting someone. Nino's support don't mention Jaffar I think- other than theirs' together of course- because it's possible to have Nino, but miss Jaffar entirely.

 

I wonder because Rebecca would still mention her brother if he gets killed.

I don't know..I mean, part of me thinks that if they mention other characters, it could improve their personality a bit? Geitz mentioned his brother Geese once and that its part of his backstory.

I feel if they don't mention other characters, part of the social life is like not there. And if at all the character is dead, they could simply just lock the support and make it so that for that conversation to be unlocked, a specific character must be alive? Heck, FE would have casual mode added at this point so why would they avoid doing it?

 

Edited by Harvey

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