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The True Tragedy of Three Houses


omegaxis1
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3 minutes ago, eclipse said:

So who else does this, in your opinion?  Preferably someone that isn't Edelgard/Rhea.

 

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

It isn't just one or the other. It's EVERYONE. 

NO ONE is willing to talk to one another. 

Not just Edelgard or just Rhea. Dimitri and Claude also refuse to talk to anyone. 

Dimitri even outright states that he won't talk to Edelgard or try to reconnect with her because he feels they have changed so much and neither are the same person. He's not wrong, as they are different, with Edelgard seeking to start a war for her ideals, and Dimitri driven to obsess over revenge. But him not approaching her this made him just be the crown prince of Faerghus, a nation that fervently followed the Church and thus has no reason to be trustworthy. 

In regards to how Edelgard doesn't explain herself, you have to consider the circumstances. When she first tells Dimitri she did not have anything to do with Duscur, they are fighting, so not much chance to explain. Then after being beaten, Dimitri is quick to snap and call her a liar after she says again that she had nothing to do with it. Dimitri wasn't showing any willingness to actually listen to anything other than a confession.

And it makes sense. By that point, all that pent up madness that we've seen glimpses throughout the story of Part 1 has FINALLY surfaced. Now we have Dimitri showing how he perceives reality.

Well to answer both of you seeing as how both of them are part of the main conflict with Edelgard being the one who brings the story forward with the characters reacting to it as that's what an antagonist does with the protagonists reacting. Where as Rhea's not giving a completely truthful history while with good intentions over time begins to come to a boil with the water rising out the flood gates with this being the eventual result as Edelgard becomes a victim to it to an extent because of this warped story Rhea gave for everyone. Dimitri also does belongs in this, but he only then comes back to his senses and finally tries to have a open dialogue with Edelgard near the end of Azure Moon. It's just that some more than others with their lack of communication can have dire consequences that range to hurting/killing more people as Edelgard like it or not is the one who initiates the war which does just that. It's why a lot of people are going to naturally have more problems with her as opposed to Lelouch who wasn't acting, but reacting to Britannia and their misdeeds that haven't just affected him, but Japan. Adding onto that Code Geass had more time to make Lelouch sympathetic to agreeing with him given who he was facing and even when his own bad deeds happened they went out in trying to make him a redemption character that paid the price. Edelgard doesn't have that redemption story that Dimitri nor Lelouch have nor does she have the additional chapters that Crimson Flower should have had to better flesh her out in making more easily to side with, but I'm not going to beat a dead horse about it as I think everyone knows which group I'm talking about.

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5 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

Honestly I didn't think it was sexist but I recently saw a thread that straight up said that they'd like her more if she was a male and I finally understood why people said that.

 

Perspective really does make you see things in a different light. From Edelgard's perspective he was refusing to listen to her -actually- telling the truth in that she had nothing to do with it, no matter how many times she said it. From his, a good few bits of circumstantial(Good bit of dramatic irony in that the player definitely would think it wasn't her despite the characters pointing towards it) evidence had piled up, between Thales saying it was all done for her, her continued allegiance with them in the holy tomb despite disowning TWSITD's actions and saying she would've stopped them if she knew what kind of depravity they were up to, her being directly related to one of his own prime suspects.

He just doesn't see any reason to believe her because of those things, especially with how much of a dark, self harming, place his mind is at that moment in time, looping back to the whole point of terrible communication from everyone's side.

I have known since early on when there was talk about character motivations and there was stuff rationalizing actions from the male characters (even Hubert and Thales) but saying that Edelgard was out of line. 
 

And all of that ignores how messed up she is mentally. There’s a small moment in Cindered Shadows that makes everything about her past with Dimitri make sense in a single line:

 

She doesn’t remember meeting him before or realize he is the boy she knew. She also barely remembers a lot of that incident

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9 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Even a massive Edelgard fan like me admits that lack of communication is a weakness of Edelgard. But being flawed doesnt make her a monster, she just is capable of making mistakes

I also think Rhea is a great character, even I often consider some of her actions and attitude. Especially stamping out technological progress and believing opposing the church is worthy of death. But I know why she thinks this and her grief makes you feel sorry for her. 

I have came to the conclusion that Rhea and Edelgard are lawful good and chaotic good respectively, both have good intentions, but one values order and the other freedom. Often extreme lawful or chaotic do consider eachother to be evil

Exactly, she's actually my 2nd favorite antagonist behind Lyon and that is how I exactly see it for them. Again well written but only so much I can tolerate to the point if I had to really choose which lord to side with it wouldn't be her sad to say.

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6 minutes ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

 

Well to answer both of you seeing as how both of them are part of the main conflict with Edelgard being the one who brings the story forward with the characters reacting to it as that's what an antagonist does with the protagonists reacting. Where as Rhea's not giving a completely truthful history while with good intentions over time begins to come to a boil with the water rising out the flood gates with this being the eventual result as Edelgard becomes a victim to it to an extent because of this warped story Rhea gave for everyone. Dimitri also does belongs in this, but he only then comes back to his senses and finally tries to have a open dialogue with Edelgard near the end of Azure Moon. It's just that some more than others with their lack of communication can have dire consequences that range to hurting/killing more people as Edelgard like it or not is the one who initiates the war which does just that. It's why a lot of people are going to naturally have more problems with her as opposed to Lelouch who wasn't acting, but reacting to Britannia and their misdeeds that haven't just affected him, but Japan. Adding onto that Code Geass had more time to make Lelouch sympathetic to agreeing with him given who he was facing and even when his own bad deeds happened they went out in trying to make him a redemption character that paid the price. Edelgard doesn't have that redemption story that Dimitri nor Lelouch have nor does she have the additional chapters that Crimson Flower should have had to better flesh her out in making more easily to side with, but I'm not going to beat a dead horse about it as I think everyone knows which group I'm talking about.

. . .in other words, you can't see beyond Edelgard/Rhea.

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10 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

Honestly I didn't think it was sexist but I recently saw a thread that straight up said that they'd like her more if she was a male and I finally understood why people said that.

The typical, "Are you a Sexist" thread. XD

Like I said, those threads are utterly pointless because that's asking people to admit if they are sexist or not. 

10 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

Perspective really does make you see things in a different light. From Edelgard's perspective he was refusing to listen to her -actually- telling the truth in that she had nothing to do with it, no matter how many times she said it. From his, a good few bits of circumstantial(Good bit of dramatic irony in that the player definitely would think it wasn't her despite the characters pointing towards it) evidence had piled up, between Thales saying it was all done for her, her continued allegiance with them in the holy tomb despite disowning TWSITD's actions and saying she would've stopped them if she knew what kind of depravity they were up to, her being directly related to one of his own prime suspects.

He just doesn't see any reason to believe her because of those things, especially with how much of a dark, self harming, place his mind is at that moment in time, looping back to the whole point of terrible communication from everyone's side.

Yup. Despite the Flame Emperor expression hostility and Thales not denying that he was behind Duscur, it doesn't change that Edelgard works with them, and they do say that they did it for her. So yeah, to his knowledge and awareness, she was behind it, despite how she had to be only 13-14 years old at the time. Not to mention, it's unlikely that Dimitri even knows about the Insurrection of the Seven. The books that contains information about noble houses from other nations are strictly forbidden for students to take or even read. Had he been able to see that, he'd have known that Edelgard couldn't have been behind it, since it would have proof that House Hresvelg lost all political power.

The worst thing is that the Insurrection of the Seven is only barely mentioned. It's mentioned one time by the Flame Emperor in the story, but otherwise, info on it is either in the book or the supports. Hubert's support make it clear when the event happened. 

10 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I thought her male version was named Arvis. 

Nah. Arvis was too dumb in the end and was too easily manipulated. Edelgard on the other hand was smart enough to know that the Agarthans are bad news and had every intention of getting rid of them after the war. 

9 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Even a massive Edelgard fan like me admits that lack of communication is a weakness of Edelgard. But being flawed doesnt make her a monster, she just is capable of making mistakes

I also think Rhea is a great character, even I often consider some of her actions and attitude. Especially stamping out technological progress and believing opposing the church is worthy of death. But I know why she thinks this and her grief makes you feel sorry for her. 

I have came to the conclusion that Rhea and Edelgard are lawful good and chaotic good respectively, both have good intentions, but one values order and the other freedom. Often extreme lawful or chaotic do consider eachother to be evil

Yeah, since Rhea uses lies and deceit to maintain her form of order, Edelgard tries to make people open their eyes by ensuing chaos and discord. Reminds me of the Tellius series, where they explain that both chaos and order are necessary to live life. Too much order and you're basically a statue. Too much chaos and it's a bloody violence. 

3 minutes ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

Well to answer both of you seeing as how both of them are part of the main conflict with Edelgard being the one who brings the story forward with the characters reacting to it as that's what an antagonist does with the protagonists reacting. Where as Rhea's not giving a completely truthful history while with good intentions over time begins to come to a boil with the water rising out the flood gates with this being the eventual result as Edelgard becomes a victim to it to an extent because of this warped story Rhea gave for everyone. Dimitri also does belongs in this, but he only then comes back to his senses and finally tries to have a open dialogue with Edelgard near the end of Azure Moon. It's just that some more than others with their lack of communication can have dire consequences that range to hurting/killing more people as Edelgard like it or not is the one who initiates the war which does just that. It's why a lot of people are going to naturally have more problems with her as opposed to Lelouch who wasn't acting, but reacting to Britannia and their misdeeds that haven't just affected him, but Japan. Adding onto that Code Geass had more time to make Lelouch sympathetic to agreeing with him given who he was facing and even when his own bad deeds happened they went out in trying to make him a redemption character that paid the price. Edelgard doesn't have that redemption story that Dimitri nor Lelouch have nor does she have the additional chapters that Crimson Flower should have had to better flesh her out in making more easily to side with, but I'm not going to beat a dead horse about it as I think everyone knows which group I'm talking about.

It's annoying how it needs the Abyss events to make the Church be viewed much more in a negative light. Cause apparently Part 1 is just too subtle. 

But overall, we see evidence of how Edelgard is trying hard to reform the world, but is burdened with so many problems. One of the main issues is that the Insurrection of the Seven is not brought up enough in the main story itself, and therefore, people don't take it into account.

But the problem is that non-CF Edelgard didn't have someone reach their hand out to her in her most critical moment. Dimitri trying to open talks with Edelgard doesn't go far when Edelgard explains too little, and Dimitri also doesn't give her that many chances to explain much either since he replies and makes her have to reply as well. 

Her story isn't about redemption, unlike Dimitri, because Dimitri's the one that loses themselves entirely. Edelgard's about trusting and opening up more and regaining the lost humanity. Cause the Edelgard we know in non-CF routes isn't the true Edelgard. 

3 minutes ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

Exactly, she's actually my 2nd favorite antagonist behind Lyon and that is how I exactly see it for them. Again well written but only so much I can tolerate to the point if I had to really choose which lord to side with it wouldn't be her sad to say.

Honestly, she's one of my most favorite protags in FE and most stories in general. A proactive and truly morally grey character, where you are fighting a war of no absolutes in black and white, but just grey. Hence why I always choose to side with her.

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1 minute ago, eclipse said:

. . .in other words, you can't see beyond Edelgard/Rhea.

What exactly are you asking me then? I gave you an answer to how this lack of communication spiraled out of control until there was a full blown war which again some have more consequences than others. I wasn't even excluding Dimitri from the equation of this and as much as I like Dimitri's character arc narrative wise if I had to choose someone to follow it would be Claude.

 

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

But overall, we see evidence of how Edelgard is trying hard to reform the world, but is burdened with so many problems. One of the main issues is that the Insurrection of the Seven is not brought up enough in the main story itself, and therefore, people don't take it into account.

But the problem is that non-CF Edelgard didn't have someone reach their hand out to her in her most critical moment. Dimitri trying to open talks with Edelgard doesn't go far when Edelgard explains too little, and Dimitri also doesn't give her that many chances to explain much either since he replies and makes her have to reply as well. 

Her story isn't about redemption, unlike Dimitri, because Dimitri's the one that loses themselves entirely. Edelgard's about trusting and opening up more and regaining the lost humanity. Cause the Edelgard we know in non-CF routes isn't the true Edelgard. 

While that may be so with her not having one I've simply given you an explanation why while Edelgard and Lelouch are comparable that's a big reason why Lelouch has been met with a lot of praise to the point that I've seen not many people dislike him as opposed to Edelgard where it's 50/50 or something in that proximity. Also that Code Geass was an anime that spanned with a lot of episodes to flesh out Lelouch where as 3H only has so much especially in CF's case of having only 6 chapters compared to the others like it's bad enough that... 

Spoiler

Cindered Shadows has 7 chapters... a side story has more chapters than a main story path...

 

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1 minute ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

What exactly are you asking me then? I gave you an answer to how this lack of communication spiraled out of control until there was a full blown war which again some have more consequences than others. I wasn't even excluding Dimitri from the equation of this and as much as I like Dimitri's character arc narrative wise if I had to choose someone to follow it would be Claude.

Show an example of the lack of communication, without mentioning Edelgard/Rhea.

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2 minutes ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

So... you want me to pull from other sources of media with lack of communication leading to events happening where bloodshed/tragedy could have been avoided?

Nope.  Use other 3H characters to illustrate the lack of communication.

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8 minutes ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

While that may be so with her not having one I've simply given you an explanation why while Edelgard and Lelouch are comparable that's a big reason why Lelouch has been met with a lot of praise to the point that I've seen not many people dislike him as opposed to Edelgard where it's 50/50 or something in that proximity. Also that Code Geass was an anime that spanned with a lot of episodes to flesh out Lelouch where as 3H only has so much especially in CF's case of having only 6 chapters compared to the others like it's bad enough that...

It wasn't just 6 chapters, though. Her development has been from the first time you meet her to the very end. The entire point of her story is that you have to get to know her by going through her support and going to her coronation, and how she's trying to make you aware of the problems of society. And that coronation scene shows how Edelgard handles power with the prime minister. Rather than kill him, someone that is very much responsible for both her and her father's torment, she merely imprisons him and strips him of power. She doesn't go for the kill or allow personal emotions to dictate her actions. 

It's these traits of how she looks at the bigger picture, while still struggling with her humanity that she needs someone to support her. 

Especially since she's the only one that respects Byleth to always offer him a choice. No other character ever really lets Byleth have a choice. 

 

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8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The typical, "Are you a Sexist" thread. XD

Like I said, those threads are utterly pointless because that's asking people to admit if they are sexist or not. 

Yup. Despite the Flame Emperor expression hostility and Thales not denying that he was behind Duscur, it doesn't change that Edelgard works with them, and they do say that they did it for her. So yeah, to his knowledge and awareness, she was behind it, despite how she had to be only 13-14 years old at the time. Not to mention, it's unlikely that Dimitri even knows about the Insurrection of the Seven. The books that contains information about noble houses from other nations are strictly forbidden for students to take or even read. Had he been able to see that, he'd have known that Edelgard couldn't have been behind it, since it would have proof that House Hresvelg lost all political power.

The worst thing is that the Insurrection of the Seven is only barely mentioned. It's mentioned one time by the Flame Emperor in the story, but otherwise, info on it is either in the book or the supports. Hubert's support make it clear when the event happened.

Didn't know about the library thing, when is that stated?(Is it just an NPC line?) Dimitri had been researching Lord Arundel pretty freely there, so you'd think everything in the main section is largely open access. Either way, a good thing to note is that the age thing probably isn't too big a factor for him, remember that he grew up in the harsh north of Faerghus and had himself been putting down rebellions at only 14-15 years old himself, again a point where I feel dramatic irony tends to crop up, ESPECIALLY for players that went through Black Eagles for obvious reasons.

The Insurrection of the Seven is super underplayed by the game despite honestly in theory being one of the most interesting events in the lore. Funnily enough you could completely take TWSITD out of it and it'd still stand on it's own if expanded on.

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Just now, Darkmoon6789 said:

Dimitri and Edelgard? Most do involve Edelgard

Only if that's who your focus in on. . .in which case, it's time to look away from Edelgard.  The inability to say what needs to be said is a running theme, even if it's resolved.

Edited by eclipse
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So how about that time when Dimitri/the Kingdom decided to just scrap allying with Claude in AM because of a dead messenger when the guy was already deploying troops to help distract Gloucester's troops while they take the bridge?

That was pretty dumb.

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5 minutes ago, Crysta said:

So how about that time when Dimitri/the Kingdom decided to just scrap allying with Claude in AM because of a dead messenger when the guy was already deploying troops to help distract Gloucester's troops while they take the bridge?

That was pretty dumb.

A lot of AM makes me scratch my head, TBH.

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Just now, eclipse said:

Nope.  Use other 3H characters to illustrate the lack of communication.

Well as I brought up Dimitri earlier in a previous post adding onto him in his support with Ingrid which he does rectify later on in their A support as in their B support he explains himself at first poorly with Glen's death. I'm simply not getting your point at how other 3H characters illustration of of their lack of communication is what leads to consequences that have major re-precautions in you know... leading to people getting hurt like how

Spoiler

Aelfric's grief with Sitri because of Rhea not explaining or Hubert not explaining to Claude when it was too late with his letter

or people dying.

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1 minute ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

Well as I brought up Dimitri earlier in a previous post adding onto him in his support with Ingrid which he does rectify later on in their A support as in their B support he explains himself at first poorly with Glen's death. I'm simply not getting your point at how other 3H characters illustration of of their lack of communication is what leads to consequences that have major re-precautions in you know... leading to people getting hurt like how

  Reveal hidden contents

or people dying.

It's because a lot of the minor ones get resolved.  Or the consequences don't appear to be earth-shattering.  But it's still there, and it drives several characters.

Spoiler

Like the entire reason why Ignatz is in the academy, for one.

 

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1 minute ago, Quillmonger said:

Um Claude and Dimitri in Golden Deer. 

Except we know Dimitri is crazed and dies of it do due his recklessness. Where as Claude if I recall doesn't he try? Heck he even tells Edelgard he doesn't want to kill her to try and patch things up. How exactly can Claude's be put in a worse light? Unless you're referring to him keep secret about his heritage but that doesn't really throw Fodland into a state of chaos as the other two girls that I mentioned.

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3 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

Didn't know about the library thing, when is that stated?(Is it just an NPC line?) Dimitri had been researching Lord Arundel pretty freely there, so you'd think everything in the main section is largely open access. Either way, a good thing to note is that the age thing probably isn't too big a factor for him, remember that he grew up in the harsh north of Faerghus and had himself been putting down rebellions at only 14-15 years old himself, again a point where I feel dramatic irony tends to crop up, ESPECIALLY for players that went through Black Eagles for obvious reasons.

The Insurrection of the Seven is super underplayed by the game despite honestly in theory being one of the most interesting events in the lore. Funnily enough you could completely take TWSITD out of it and it'd still stand on it's own if expanded on.

Yup. Says it right here in the library book:

Quote

A register of prominent noble houses of the Adrestian Empire. This document is expressly for official use by the Church of Seiros. Students are forbidden to remove or peruse this documentation. 1179 edition. 

- House Hresvelg
The most distinguished noble house of the Empire, tracing its roots back all the way back to Great Emperor Wilhelm. It has been the governing house of the Empire for 1,100 years. In addition to the first emperor, its lineage can be traced back to Saint Seiros herself, which is why generations of emperors are believed to bear the Crest of Seiros. 

House Hresvelg resides in Enbarr, the Imperial Capital, claiming all of the surrounding territory as its domain. It boasted supreme authority both within the Empire and without until the Insurrection of the Seven in 1171, in which much of its power was stripped away by the nobility. In recent years, a series of misfortunes has plagued this storied house, and some believe dark clouds hover over the future of the Hresvelg reign. 

I would say Church donations from Arundel isn't the same as actual personal info about noble houses. 

However, it's one thing to be a fighter. It's another to be skilled at planning an assassination on the King of Faerghus like that. It's not possible without plenty of other factors in there. Based on what Edelgard said, likely everything Dimitri experienced was part of Thales's manipulation. He was likely following leads that Thales/Cornelia placed themselves to lead him to suspect the Empire. Likely also to manipulate him into fighting Edelgard as well. 

And yeah. The Insurrection hardly ever gets brought up, but it's a serious event.

 

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11 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Only if that's who your focus in on. . .in which case, it's time to look away from Edelgard.  The inability to say what needs to be said is a running theme, even if it's resolved.

I do admit I do have tunnelvision on Edelgard, the opposite kind to Dimitri. But I still focus quite alot on her. That is the nature of love

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14 minutes ago, Crysta said:

So how about that time when Dimitri/the Kingdom decided to just scrap allying with Claude in AM because of a dead messenger when the guy was already deploying troops to help distract Gloucester's troops while they take the bridge?

That was pretty dumb.

Just rewatched that scene and it...doesn't seem that dumb? They're literally just about to head into a major battle when they find this out, they requested aid  from the Alliance once again, but their messenger ends up dead with no clue as to what happened, who killed them or if their message was delivered. They don't have the reason to expect help from them, nor the time to investigate it all properly. The actual weird thing is that Claude attacks you regardless of if you actually go after him.

Edited by Axel987
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11 minutes ago, eclipse said:

It's because a lot of the minor ones get resolved.  Or the consequences don't appear to be earth-shattering.  But it's still there, and it drives several characters.

  Hide contents

Like the entire reason why Ignatz is in the academy, for one.

 

But my point to you that I've based my argument on in making is not all lack of communication equates. And as you yourself said minor ones get resolved throughout supports and they're not earth-shattering like a full blown war. Of course it drives a lot of characters as that's human nature to have misunderstandings, but a misunderstanding that could have been avoided in at least trying is why I give a lot of credit to Dimitri in Azure Moon with him having a civil conversation with Edelgard as it's a upstanding moment for his character arc in how he himself found the right path again.

Edited by AbsoluteZer0Nova
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2 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I do admit I do have tunnelvision on Edelgard, the opposite kind to Dimitri. But I still focus quite alot on her. That is the nature of love

 

15 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Only if that's who your focus in on. . .in which case, it's time to look away from Edelgard.  The inability to say what needs to be said is a running theme, even if it's resolved.

It does feel like the community always gets to a case that whether you are praising or criticizing any of the lords of 3H, Edelgard somehow pops up. I'm also to blame for this as well, given how I also bring up Edelgard in plenty of conversations when talking about any of the lords. Working on not getting like that, and it's a struggle worth doing.

1 minute ago, Axel987 said:

Just rewatched that scene and it...doesn't seem that dumb? They're literally just about to head into a major battle when they find this out, they requested aid  from the Alliance once again, but their messenger ends up dead with no clue as to what happened, who killed them or if their message was delivered. They don't have the reason to expect help from them, nor the time to investigate it all properly. The actual weird thing is that Claude attacks you regardless of if you actually go after him.

Lorewise, Claude indicates that it's us attacking them when he talks to Byleth. To be honest, I hate Gronder Field in both AM/VW. For all the hype it had, it was underwhelming as a story, and horrible as a map.

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8 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

Just rewatched that scene and it...doesn't seem that dumb? They're literally just about to head into a major battle when they find this out, they asked for request from the alliance once again, but their messenger ends up dead with no clue as to what happened, who killed them or if their message was delivered. They don't have the reason to expect help from them. The actual weird thing is that Claude attacks you regardless of if you actually go after him.

It is dumb. The Alliance was already helping out, Gilbert acknowledged "that a man as wise as Claude" wouldn't refuse their request (and honestly he didn't), and when you picked the dialogue questioning if Claude is really capable of slaughtering someone like that and if it could have been the Empire Dimitri actually agrees with your assessment but still concludes that he never expected the Alliance to help anyway and we may have to kill them.

It is also established, before and in that very conversation by Rodrigue, that the Alliance is currently split in two and if it was an Alliance lordling who did it - it could have just been one allied with the Empire and pursuing their own interests, ergo currently also Claude's enemy.

No lord gets more undeserved benefit of the doubt than Dimitri lmao

Edited by Crysta
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