The True Tragedy of Three Houses

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Lorewise, Claude indicates that it's us attacking them when he talks to Byleth. To be honest, I hate Gronder Field in both AM/VW. For all the hype it had, it was underwhelming as a story, and horrible as a map.

From what I hear it was apparently suppose to be a fog of war map which... would make a lot of sense if you consider the cutscene to it even has fog and than you have Edelgard mentioning how both of the opposing armies won't be able to tell who is friend or foe.

Edited February 17, 2020 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[Axel987]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

 

It does feel like the community always gets to a case that whether you are praising or criticizing any of the lords of 3H, Edelgard somehow pops up. I'm also to blame for this as well, given how I also bring up Edelgard in plenty of conversations when talking about any of the lords. Working on not getting like that, and it's a struggle worth doing.

Lorewise, Claude indicates that it's us attacking them when he talks to Byleth. To be honest, I hate Gronder Field in both AM/VW. For all the hype it had, it was underwhelming as a story, and horrible as a map.

IIRC the dialogue is the same in VW so could it be that the map was intended for that route primarily? Either way I hate it myself since it just, kinda fucks over Claude and Dimitri in both routes it appears in.

As for the Edelgard thing, honestly it's probably because she's just straight up the game's main character(lol bye Byleth. Good riddance). Major role in every route, poster character of the game, intro and credit song is sung by her, etc. Personally wish we could have more discussions about these characters without people dragging other ones into them and or character assasinating them.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

From what I hear it was apparently suppose to be a fog of war map which... would make a lot of sense if you consider the cutscene to it even has fog and than you have Edelgard mentioning how both of the opposing armies won't be able to tell who is friend or foe.

Instead, all we get is people going, "EDELGARD SET BERNADETTA ON FIRE!"

[eclipse]

5 minutes ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

But my point to you that I've based my argument on in making is not all lack of communication equates. And as you yourself said minor ones get resolved throughout supports and they're not earth-shattering like a full blown war. Of course it drives a lot of characters as that's human nature to have misunderstandings, but a misunderstanding that could have been avoided in at least trying is why I give a lot of credit to Dimitri in Azure Moon with him having a civil conversation with Edelgard as it's a upstanding moment for his character arc in how he himself found the right path again.

It doesn't have to be earth-shattering to illustrate the point.  Or perhaps it IS earth-shattering, but only to one person.  Regardless, if the small things can be resolved by talking it out, then it stands to reason that the bigger things could - except they don't.

This extends beyond the series, into some real-life things.

Spoiler

Ingrid's views on Dedue is an example of this.

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

It does feel like the community always gets to a case that whether you are praising or criticizing any of the lords of 3H, Edelgard somehow pops up. I'm also to blame for this as well, given how I also bring up Edelgard in plenty of conversations when talking about any of the lords. Working on not getting like that, and it's a struggle worth doing.

Edelgard's the easiest to talk about.  It means more work on your part to NOT bring her up, so good luck~!

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Instead, all we get is people going, "EDELGARD SET BERNADETTA ON FIRE!"

Which then I can get for why either maybe Claude or Dimitri's armies thought or vice versa it was them that did that, but yeah not exactly helping too much to paint it as a well written 3 way battle. Though I think Dimitri makes sense to be everyone is my enemy as he does say this earlier about even those that call themselves his ally. Claude's the one that makes no sense what so ever like if anything him waiting to see how things play out is what he should have done which HE EVEN MENTIONS but then later on changes his mind instead to okay let's move in like... what? I could get him moving in if there was a trap that activated on his side of map that forces him and the rest of his side to go forward which causes Dimitri's army to worry that they're getting flanked by both sides.

Edited February 17, 2020 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[Crysta]

Are we just gonna ignore me pointing out what is likely the most blatant example of a lord ignoring communication and common sense due to his own personal shortcomings and selfishness, which is an action that could potentially get most of an allied army killed? We're more bothered by what Claude does?

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

35 minutes ago, Crysta said:

So how about that time when Dimitri/the Kingdom decided to just scrap allying with Claude in AM because of a dead messenger when the guy was already deploying troops to help distract Gloucester's troops while they take the bridge?

That was pretty dumb.

Gronder 2 was a case of someone saying "wouldn't it be cool if", then bending the story to fit it, without changing the story enough to actually justify it. Honestly, scrapping Gronder 2 was part of what allowed Crimson Flower to be the most unique (and IMO most interesting) route.

[eclipse]

2 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Gronder 2 was a case of someone saying "wouldn't it be cool if", then bending the story to fit it, without changing the story enough to actually justify it. Honestly, scrapping Gronder 2 was part of what allowed Crimson Flower to be the most unique (and IMO most interesting) route.

"We're going to mimic the inter-house battle with actual casualties.  We don't have to make a map for it because it will be the exact same location.  How do contort the story to do this?"

Hence why the story feels weakest around that map (whether it be Dimitri's role in VW, or why Dimitri attacked in AM).

Edited February 17, 2020 by eclipse

[Axel987]

21 minutes ago, Crysta said:

It is dumb. The Alliance was already helping out, Gilbert acknowledged "that a man as wise as Claude" wouldn't refuse their request (and honestly he didn't), and when you picked the dialogue questioning if Claude is really capable of slaughtering someone like that and if it could have been the Empire Dimitri actually agrees with your assessment but still concludes that he never expected the Alliance to help anyway and we may have to kill them.

It is also established, before and in that very conversation by Rodrigue, that the Alliance is currently split in two and if it was an Alliance lordling who did it - it could have just been one allied with the Empire and pursuing their own interests, ergo currently also Claude's enemy.

No lord gets more undeserved benefit of the doubt than Dimitri lmao

My point is that they simply have no clue as to whether their message reached Claude in the first place(It did, the soldier was killed on the return journey as implied from the player's perspective by Claude invading imperial territory.) They know that Claude likely wouldn't do that but again, they're just about to hit Gronder and they have other soldiers dispatched in the area that they have to worry about, so they assume the worst case scenario of expecting no further help because they have no way of knowing who was actually behind this.

Gronder in general is dumb as fuck, the lack of Fog of War makes basically everything that happens there make no sense whatsoever.

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by Axel987

[Zapp Branniglenn]

1 minute ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Gronder 2 was a case of someone saying "wouldn't it be cool if", then bending the story to fit it, without changing the story enough to actually justify it. Honestly, scrapping Gronder 2 was part of what allowed Crimson Flower to be the most unique (and IMO most interesting) route.

When Gronder field is explained to you as an event that happens off screen in Silver Snow, I just thought to myself "haha, sucks to be them. Choke on ambush spawns and die." People complain about the narrative in Silver Snow, but not having to deal with that messy chapter is a serious point in the route's favor. Except for the sub plot about Dimitri being dead already, I guess. In VW, it's supposed to be surprising that the guy is still around, but in SS, learning that Dimitri is actually alive from Gilbert is just one dialogue sequence away from us learning he died offscreen. What a waste.

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

12 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Are we just gonna ignore me pointing out what is likely the most blatant example of a lord ignoring communication and common sense due to his own personal shortcomings and selfishness, which is an action that could potentially get most of an allied army killed? We're more bothered by what Claude does?

Except for Dimitri there it wasn't OOC with the information we are given earlier about his paranoia to him telling Gilbert his "my enemies say the same" as we know that apparently he has had assassins after him some in which probably were friendly in gaining his trust where as Claude is OOC for a man who talked about being a perceptive tactician, if he had waited but Edelgard set up a trap where him and the rest of his army has no choice but to move forward which then causes confusion among the Blue Lions army in making them fearful (like a random npc solider can't take the pressure attacks in fear) they are about to be pincer-ed attacked excluding Dimitri than it would make sense due to a misunderstanding caused by Edelgard to make the two begin fighting as Claude would have no choice for himself and his army to defend themselves and vice versa.

Edited February 17, 2020 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 minute ago, eclipse said:

"We're going to mimic the inter-house battle with actual casualties.  We don't have to make a map for it because it will be the exact same location.  How do contort the story to do this?"

Hence why the story feels weakest around that map (whether it be Dimitri's role in VW, or why Dimitri attacked in AM).

The worst part, for me, was - why does Claude (or Byleth, or anyone) have to defeat Dimitri in Verdant Wind? Beating Edelgard makes sense, but he has no incentive to fight Dimitri. IMO once Edelgard was defeated, it should've turned into an "Escape" map. Also fighting Dimitri has no actual impact, considering what happens to him after the battle.

[Crysta]

1 minute ago, Axel987 said:

My point is that they simply have no clue as to whether their message reached Claude in the first place(It did, the soldier was killed on the return journey as implied from the player's perspective by Claude invading imperial territory.)

Claude has already moved his troops to distract Gloucester. The only way he's aware of the Kingdom army is because they've already notified him of their existence and intentions: this is missing in VW and Claude isn't even aware Dimitri is alive, hence why Gronder makes more sense in that route. He's aware of Dimitri in AM.

The second messenger is presumably the official allying up, but the Kingdom has already been assisted by the Alliance and it's pretty out of character of Claude to suddenly decide to murder the messenger.

Can't say I'm surprised that we're dismissing Dimitri's mistake due to clear narrative shortcomings, but it's like... still there.

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

3 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Claude has already moved his troops to distract Gloucester. The only way he's aware of the Kingdom army is because they've already notified him of their existence and intentions: this is missing in VW and Claude isn't even aware Dimitri is alive, hence why Gronder makes more sense in that route. He's aware of Dimitri in AM.

The second messenger is presumably the official allying up, but the Kingdom has already been assisted by the Alliance and it's pretty out of character of Claude to suddenly decide to murder the messenger.

Can't say I'm surprised that we're dismissing Dimitri's mistake due to clear narrative shortcomings, but it's like... still there.

It's not a narrative short coming from Dimitri, it's in character if you paid attention to how his character has turned out after the timeskip the same way Edelgard can't find it in herself to trust people that could have made a lot of blood not having to have been spilled the way it did but she's trying to make sure she can reach her goal just like Dimitri can live for his goal which she too is in character. One fine example of how they're foils of each other.

Edited February 17, 2020 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Crysta said:

Claude has already moved his troops to distract Gloucester. The only way he's aware of the Kingdom army is because they've already notified him of their existence and intentions: this is missing in VW and Claude isn't even aware Dimitri is alive, hence why Gronder makes more sense in that route. He's aware of Dimitri in AM.

The second messenger is presumably the official allying up, but the Kingdom has already been assisted by the Alliance and it's pretty out of character of Claude to suddenly decide to murder the messenger.

Can't say I'm surprised that we're dismissing Dimitri's mistake due to clear narrative shortcomings, but it's like... still there.

Probably cause post-Gronder is the memorable moment of Dimitri's redemption. I mean, they have 5 CG scenes made for it. 3 for Rodrigue's death, and then 2 for the Rain moment. 

[Darkmoon6789]

29 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Instead, all we get is people going, "EDELGARD SET BERNADETTA ON FIRE!"

Not my Edelgard anyway, Bernadetta is fine. I don't know the full context of this line. Havn't finished Azure Moon, but it is irrelevant to Crimson Flower Edelgard, not fair to blame a girl for something that never happened in her timeline

[Crysta]

6 minutes ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

It's not a narrative short coming from Dimitri, it's in character if you paid attention to how his character has turned out after the timeskip the same way Edelgard can't find it in herself to trust people that could have made a lot of blood not having to have been spilled the way it did but she's trying to make sure she can reach her goal just like Dimitri can live for his goal which she too is in character. One fine example of how they're foils of each other.

He certainly is dumber for the narrative. You're right, he wants the shortest route to Edelgard's head and has little interest in taking the time to communicate with Claude further when Edelgard is marching towards them. Sure, the narrative doesn't spell it out for you right then and there, but I don't think it has to.

He gets better, but it's important to remember that the Boar persona is still very much the other Dimitri half. Or at least that's what the story and Dimitri stans tell me, that the voices are still there and he still struggles with them. He doesn't get a pass because he was allowed to be a murder hobo and later gets a chance to redeem himself because Rodrigue takes a stab for him lol

Edited February 17, 2020 by Crysta

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

1 minute ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Not my Edelgard anyway, Bernadetta is fine. I don't know the full context of this line. Havn't finished Azure Moon, but it is irrelevant to Crimson Flower Edelgard, not fair to blame a girl for something that never happened in her timeline

Er... but it happens after Bernadetta dies which it depends on your view of it like say if you don't approve of Edelgard burning Bernadetta's corpse when she should be given a proper burial instead.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

10 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

When Gronder field is explained to you as an event that happens off screen in Silver Snow, I just thought to myself "haha, sucks to be them. Choke on ambush spawns and die." People complain about the narrative in Silver Snow, but not having to deal with that messy chapter is a serious point in the route's favor. Except for the sub plot about Dimitri being dead already, I guess. In VW, it's supposed to be surprising that the guy is still around, but in SS, learning that Dimitri is actually alive from Gilbert is just one dialogue sequence away from us learning he died offscreen. What a waste.

It's funny that you say this - gameplay-wise, I found both iterations of Gronder to be a fun challenge. I like how it has options (split up vs. stay together, take the ballista vs. head east vs. head west), and named units are always more interesting to fight than generic enemies. I just don't think it fits well in the story. I'll have to play Silcer Snow myself to fairly assess how they handle it.

[Crysta]

It doesn't actually happen: the tile ballista Bernadetta is on isn't set on fire.

She still sets the platform on fire with her own troops on it so this has always been a dumb point of contention and I'm not sure why people keep bringing it up.

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

8 minutes ago, Crysta said:

It certainly is dumber for the narrative. He wants the shortest route to Edelgard's head and has little interest in taking the time to communicate with Claude further when Edelgard is marching towards them. Sure, the narrative doesn't spell it out for you right then and there, but I don't think it has to.

He gets better, but it's important to remember that the Boar persona is still very much the other Dimitri half. Or at least that's what the story and Dimitri stans tell me, that the voices are still there and he still struggles with them. He doesn't get a pass because he was allowed to be a murder hobo and later gets a chance to redeem himself because Rodrigue takes a stab for him lol

When you're obsess with revenge you don't think rationally especially when you've been alone for 5 years on the run with assassins some of whom tried gaining your trust only to backstab you to then not being able to trust even prior allies fully. Also remember before that chapter in Azure Moon they come across Lorenz a Golden Deer/Leicester Alliance member the same as Claude who was their enemy in that fight as far as Dimitri is concerned that piles up on him not wanting to chance allying with Claude as to him probably just another obstacle that's keeping him away from his goal Edelgard.

Edited February 17, 2020 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[Axel987]

15 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Claude has already moved his troops to distract Gloucester. The only way he's aware of the Kingdom army is because they've already notified him of their existence and intentions: this is missing in VW and Claude isn't even aware Dimitri is alive, hence why Gronder makes more sense in that route. He's aware of Dimitri in AM.

The second messenger is presumably the official allying up, but the Kingdom has already been assisted by the Alliance and it's pretty out of character of Claude to suddenly decide to murder the messenger.

Can't say I'm surprised that we're dismissing Dimitri's mistake due to clear narrative shortcomings, but it's like... still there.

I do hope I'm not coming across like I'm dismissing it, I just think it's genuinely a player perspective thing. They think Claude didn't do it but don't have the time or resources to check, given that whoever -could- have done it is possibly still in the area. Assuming the worst case scenario and not attempting any more communication is largely a bad move, but given his paranoia, single minded focus and the circumstances I don't think it's out of character either.

Again, I hope I didn't come across as thinking it was 100% the right thing to do or whatever. As I said, basically everything surrounding Gronder is one of my -least- favourite parts about the game, including this lol.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Axel987

[Crysta]

Just now, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

When you're obsess with revenge you don't think rationally especially when you've been alone for 5 years on the run with assassins some of whom tried gaining your trust only to backstab you to then not being able to trust even prior allies fully. Also remember before that chapter in Azure Moon they come across Lorenz a Golden Deer/Leicester Alliance member the same as Claude who was their enemy in that fight as far as Dimitri is concerned that piles up on him not wanting to chance allying with Claude as to him probably just another enemy that's keeping him away from his goal Edelgard.

Yes, I'm aware that you're fine with Dimitri being cruel and dumb because he's irrationally hellbent on revenge, and you're apt to overlook his previous mistakes and shortcomings - which actually strike me as far more self-destructive and potentially dangerous to his own people than anything Edelgard has done until that point - because he gets better. I'm less thrilled about how easily everyone but Dimitri himself forgives himself for it.

This thread, like the billion before it, is fixated on Edelgard and how she's wrong. I'm bringing up how Dimitri is wrong, since apparently we're having difficulty arguing about something else somehow.

 

[Darkmoon6789]

5 minutes ago, Crysta said:

It doesn't actually happen: the tile ballista Bernadetta is on isn't set on fire.

She still sets the platform on fire with her own troops on it so this has always been a dumb point of contention and I'm not sure why people keep bringing it up.

8 minutes ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

Er... but it happens after Bernadetta dies which it depends on your view of it like say if you don't approve of Edelgard burning Bernadetta's corpse when she should be given a proper burial instead.

So either makeshift funeral pyre or absolutely nothing? Don't seem evil at at to me if this is true. Why is this always a major argument? Seems desperate to me

[Zapp Branniglenn]

5 minutes ago, Crysta said:

It doesn't actually happen: the tile ballista Bernadetta is on isn't set on fire.

She still sets the platform on fire with her own troops on it so this has always been a dumb point of contention and I'm not sure why people keep bringing it up.

Every time somebody brings up Bernadetta being set on fire, they're expressing annoyance at how often it's brought up against Edelgard's character, which I personally have never encountered. The only people who seem to make a big deal of it are the ones trying hard to defend it and just end up drawing attention to it anyway. I certainly never thought of it as malicious until I was being told not to make a big deal out of it.