The True Tragedy of Three Houses

[Jotari]

8 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Let's not forget that Rhea basically conquered the very same region during her war with Nemesis, she was instrumental in the very forming of the Adrestian Empire, many heirs to the Imperial royal line have the crest of Seiros, including Edelgard. So she basically did the exact same thing as Edelgard did once upon a time, uniting the continent under one rule, yes, you could argue she's justified in doing this, due to Nemesis and the Agarthans , but I can make the same argument for Edelgard. Let's not forget that Seiros was originally a warrior and a conqueror. I don't know what happened with Rhea and Almyra, but she obviously did something to make them angry as they do constantly invade and Edelgard does imply it is for religious reasons, citing lack of respect for cultural differences as the reason. Here is the thing with Edelgard though, she has no plans to expand any further than just the main continent of Fodlan. She has shown willingness to make peace with Almyra through cultural understanding, she did give Brigid back their independence. She obviously doesn't care to maintain control of colonies like Brigid and Dagda. Edelgard's expansionist policies pretty much ended with her war against Rhea. Is it weird for me to say that I think that both Seiros were justified with their war of conquest? Nemesis needed to be stopped and Seiros brought a necessary order by reuniting the continent after that war by establishing her religion. But circumstances changed, Rhea lost control over the continent with time and power was often abused by corrupt nobles , relying on the authority their crests gave them. Rhea refused to do anything about this rampant abuse so Edelgard took action to reform this now-defunct system. The problem with Rhea is that she doesn't seem to realise things have changed after 1000 years, she still sees Edelgard as just another Nemesis. Rhea brought this on herself by ignoring all the social unrest throughout the continent and not addressing the problems, revolts happen when people get sufficiently discontent. 

Also, why do you assume that I will automatically consider the aggressive and expansionist one to be a automatically wrong? I think the actual beliefs of said belief system is far more important. The truth is that the only thing Edelgard is forcing on anyone is the removal of inherited social hierarchies and the establishment of a merit-based one. She isn't opressing anyone, she is simply giving the people far more freedom than before by allowing the commoners to reach positions they were previously gated out of. She might have removed the institution of the church, but faith in Sothis and personal spirituality is still perfectly legal, I would argue that religious freedom is actually greater under Edelgard than ever before, as now no one will execute you for having the wrong beliefs.  I should also point out that most of the Western world today is technically defined as a meritocracy, as this is what capitalism is classified under. Does it work? Not really, a lot of incompetent people still managed to get into power(mostly because people are dumb enough to vote them in) but it is a heck of a lot better than theocratic feudalism, which is exactly what Rhea's system is. Ironically, the only thing forced upon the people is freedom.

I never said that. You've made yourself very clear that you think violence is an appropriate solution. I'm just saying that Edelgard is the one that's acting expansionist, while if Rhea had any tendency to be expansionist she would have manifested themselves in the millennium she had control.

Do we have any examples of Rhea killing anyone merely for being an atheist? I remember someone saying something like "careful that could be considered heresy" at one point, but other than that the actual executions Rhea demands are for people openly taking up arms against the Church.

5 minutes ago, Moltz23 said:

Edelgard's plans are also similar to Rhea in that sense, as she has no interest in conquering lands outside of Fodlan, and in her eyes, her goal is less expansionism and more trying to reclaim lost imperial territory. At the end of CF Arundel is like "Hey Edelgard. What of you tried to conquer the world after the war?" and she's like "Nah. I'm fine with Fodlan", and in non-CF routes she gives up pretty quickly about Brigid once Hubert is kicked out by Byleth and co.

The difference is that Rhea already controls Fodlan, while Edelgard only controls her own empire. Serios's conquest wasn't an expansionist affair, it was essentially a rebellion against a ruling class that were themselves acting like tyrants (though for Seiros herself it was most definitely motivated by revenge than political expansionism).

Edited February 22, 2020 by Jotari

[Darkmoon6789]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I never said that. You've made yourself very clear that you think violence is an appropriate solution.

Do we have any examples of Rhea killing anyone merely for being an atheist? I remember someone saying something like "careful that could be considered heresy" at one point, but other than that the actual executions Rhea demands are for people openly taking up arms against the Church.

The difference is that Rhea already controls Fodlan, while Edelgard only controls her own empire. Serios's conquest wasn't an expansionist affair, it was essentially a rebellion against a ruling class that were themselves acting like tyrants (though for Seiros herself it was most definitely motivated by revenge than political expansionism).

Well, those commandments you linked, does imply this in the very first one "Dare not doubt or deny the power or existence of the goddess". If these were actually enforced like the 10 commandments were in old Testament times, that would mean people were giving the death penalty for breaching one of the commandments. Which in this case would mean that to deny the power or existence of the goddess would be punishable by death. Many of these commandments are actually good rules, that depends entirely on how they are enforced. The biblical commandment to honour your father and mother, a commandment also present on Rhea's list was enforced by the community stoning disobedient children to death. There is also the fact that the reasons that Rhea states for executing both Edelgard and the members of the western church isn't murder, but the desecration of holy places. Which shows that she has a pretty extreme stance on breaches of religious law. Based on this I can take an educated guess how it is enforced. 

"Dare not abuse the power gifted to you by the goddess"

This would also mean that the corrupt nobles of using their crests that Edelgard wants to get rid of art. In fact, in violation of Rhea's doctrine however.

"The goddess will never deny the splendors of love, affection, joy,
peace, faith, kindness, temperance, modesty, or patience."

At least this commandment is something I like, it is essentially an complacent admission that the goddess accepts all types of relationships, whenever it is between people of the opposite sex or not.

I fail to see how the circumstances between Seiros and Edelgard is at all different as I would definitely describe Edelgard as starting a rebellion against a ruling class that is acting like tyrants. I noticed that there are salvageable points with the church of Seiros and their doctrine, it just need to not be enforced by law in an absolute fashion. 

[omegaxis1]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

The difference is that Rhea already controls Fodlan, while Edelgard only controls her own empire. Serios's conquest wasn't an expansionist affair, it was essentially a rebellion against a ruling class that were themselves acting like tyrants (though for Seiros herself it was most definitely motivated by revenge than political expansionism).

False. It was an expansionist. Hell, even the library book states that Wilhelm started the war and destroyed any house that dared to have more power than his. And this war lasted for 66 years. Nemesis never ruled over Fodlan ever. The idea that he and the Elites wanted to conquer the continent was a lie by the Church. 

Also, in regards to those commandments, once you realize the context of the fake religion, you realize that Rhea is everything Lonato called her: an infidel. 

Rhea is not a true believer of the religion. 

[Darkmoon6789]

13 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

False. It was an expansionist. Hell, even the library book states that Wilhelm started the war and destroyed any house that dared to have more power than his. And this war lasted for 66 years. Nemesis never ruled over Fodlan ever. The idea that he and the Elites wanted to conquer the continent was a lie by the Church. 

Also, in regards to those commandments, once you realize the context of the fake religion, you realize that Rhea is everything Lonato called her: an infidel. 

Rhea is not a true believer of the religion. 

In contrast, Edelgard was able to conquer Fodlan in five years, compared to 66 years the casualty rate must have been minimal. 

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

In contrast, Edelgard was able to conquer Fodlan in five years, compared to 66 years the casualty rate must have been minimal. 

The War of Heroes makes Edelgard's war look like a playground scuffle.

[MrPerson0]

3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Nemesis never ruled over Fodlan ever. The idea that he and the Elites wanted to conquer the continent was a lie by the Church. 

Not necessarily. Maurice still calls Nemesis a king, and I doubt that he would follow the church's lie, so it's possible that Nemesis started to take over Fodlan after his attack on Zanado. The Ten Elites apparently accepted some offer from Nemesis (likely ruling over Fodlan) without knowing what he did at Zanado as well (from one of the books in the Shadow Library from the DLC).

Edited February 22, 2020 by MrPerson0

[omegaxis1]

Just now, MrPerson0 said:

Not necessarily. Maurice still calls Nemesis a king, and I doubt that he would follow the church's lie, so it's possible that Nemesis started to take over Fodlan after his attack on Zanado. The Ten Elites apparently accepted some offer from Nemesis (likely ruling over Fodlan) without knowing what he did at Zanado as well.

There's already a HUGE contradiction there.

There's been a long period of time between the Red Canyon massacre and when Seiros arrived in Enbarr, which happened 41 years before the Empire was founded. The War of Heroes would not begin until 31 years after the Empire was founded. That means that there's been 72+ years before any war began. If Nemesis REALLY was out to rule the continent, with his Elites and Relics, and was a king, he'd have conquered it long before Seiros and Wilhelm made their move. 

Nemesis was praised as a King. But Nemesis and the Elites were never indicated to be expansionists.

In fact, adding to how the info box on him states that he rallied the people to fight in the War of Heroes, which was started by Seiros and Wilhelm. So we know that if Nemesis wanted an army, he had more chances and opportunity to take over the continent. 

So yeah, for all intents and purposes, Nemesis never once sought world domination. 

[MrPerson0]

8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

If Nemesis REALLY was out to rule the continent, with his Elites and Relics, and was a king, he'd have conquered it long before Seiros and Wilhelm made their move. 

Do you not think that this happened within that timeframe? He was working with TWSitD after all, and they gave him an immense amount of power since they wanted to take out the Nabateans and rule Fodlan. There has to be a reason that he is called a "King",  I doubt a bunch of bandits (the ten Elites) would give him that title for the sake of it.

11 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

In fact, adding to how the info box on him states that he rallied the people to fight in the War of Heroes, which was started by Seiros and Wilhelm. So we know that if Nemesis wanted an army, he had more chances and opportunity to take over the continent. 

That would simply mean that anyone loyal to him would have joined him, especially if they viewed him as a King already.

[Etrurian emperor]

I was under the impression that Nemesis pretty much already ruled the continent by the time of the War of Heroes. Emperor Wilhelm was said to be a former ally of his which meant Nemesis already held sway over southern Fodlan. The domains of the 10 elites were likely founded by the original ones who held allegiance to Nemesis so he likely ruled most important places in Fodlan. We know for a fact that Nemesis held the title of king so he was certainly ruling over something. 

A battle hungry bandit with a ton of all powerful weapons at his disposal seems unlikely to just have been chilling in peace before Seiros enacted her revenge. I'd be really surprised if he hadn't taken control of Fodlan after his little genocide. 

[omegaxis1]

7 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Do you not think that this happened within that timeframe? He was working with TWSitD after all, and they gave him an immense amount of power since they wanted to take out the Nabateans and rule Fodlan. There has to be a reason that he is called a "King",  I doubt a bunch of bandits (the ten Elites) would give him that title for the sake of it.

That would simply mean that anyone loyal to him would have joined him, especially if they viewed him as a King already.

You're just proving my point. 

If Nemesis literally ruled over the land, there never would have been any chance for Adrestia to have even been created as a nation, nor would it have even been possible for Rhea and Wilhelm to have raised an army to wage war against Nemesis.

So there's absolutely no way for Nemesis to not have already conquered Fodlan for himself within that time period.

1 minute ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I was under the impression that Nemesis pretty much already ruled the continent by the time of the War of Heroes. Emperor Wilhelm was said to be a former ally of his which meant Nemesis already held sway over southern Fodlan. The domains of the 10 elites were likely founded by the original ones who held allegiance to Nemesis so he likely ruled most important places in Fodlan. We know for a fact that Nemesis held the title of king so he was certainly ruling over something. 

A battle hungry bandit with a ton of all powerful weapons at his disposal seems unlikely to just have been chilling in peace before Seiros enacted her revenge. I'd be really surprised if he hadn't taken control of Fodlan after his little genocide. 

This is false. Not ONCE was Wilhelm ever indicated to be Nemesis's ally. I don't know how this rumor came about, but Wilhelm never held any sort of connection to Nemesis. 

[MrPerson0]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

If Nemesis literally ruled over the land, there never would have been any chance for Adrestia to have even been created as a nation, nor would it have even been possible for Rhea and Wilhelm to have raised an army to wage war against Nemesis.

So there's absolutely no way for Nemesis to not have already conquered Fodlan for himself within that time period.

True about Adrestia forming, which likely wouldn't happen if Nemesis had an iron grip over the continent. The fact remains that Nemesis had some rule over Fodlan, we just don't know how much. This falls in line with his followers calling him "King". The Ten Elites formed their own houses/clans after all (possibly over northern Fodlan, which is where their houses still reside), and Rhea even mentioned that he had followers (when she reveals the truth in Verdant Wind).

[Etrurian emperor]

The 10 Elite houses all being in the north with the exception of Lamine could indicate that Nemesis mostly ruled over northern Fodlan.

11 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

This is false. Not ONCE was Wilhelm ever indicated to be Nemesis's ally. I don't know how this rumor came about, but Wilhelm never held any sort of connection to Nemesis. 

I thought I saw it mentioned in the library but after looking back apparently not. The wiki does say so for some reason. 

[omegaxis1]

Just now, MrPerson0 said:

True about Adrestia forming, which likely wouldn't happen if Nemesis had an iron grip over the continent. The fact remains that Nemesis had some rule over Fodlan, we just don't know how much. This falls in line with his followers calling him "King". The Ten Elites formed their own houses/clans after all (possibly over northern Fodlan, which is where their houses still reside), and Rhea even mentioned that he had followers (when she reveals the truth in Verdant Wind).

Being called "King" does not mean he controlled the entire continent or even most of it. At BEST you can say northern Fodlan, ie. pre-Faerghus, was where he ruled over.

Which follows what I'm overall saying. Nemesis was never out for world conquest or anything of the sort. 

This actually falls in line with certain theories that some things the religion teaches holds kernels of truth, in that there were invaders from the north and Nemesis used the Relics to ward them off. Nemesis was manipulated by the Agarthans to slaughter the Nabateans in exchange for power. But Nemesis never once told any of his Elites what he did to attain that power. 

It might be possible that Nemesis only did what he did so that he had the power to ward off the invaders from the north. 

3 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I thought I saw it mentioned in the library but after looking back apparently not. The wiki does say so for some reason. 

It never was. I read the library books multiple times and even recorded the texts. Not once was Wilhelm ever Nemesis's ally. I removed the info from the wiki where it says that about Wilhelm.

[MrPerson0]

6 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The wiki does say so for some reason.

It's best not to trust the wiki on info such as this. The page on Nemesis has been wrong before I brought it up.

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Which follows what I'm overall saying. Nemesis was never out for world conquest or anything of the sort. 

This actually falls in line with certain theories that some things the religion teaches holds kernels of truth, in that there were invaders from the north and Nemesis used the Relics to ward them off. Nemesis was manipulated by the Agarthans to slaughter the Nabateans in exchange for power. But Nemesis never once told any of his Elites what he did to attain that power. 

It might be possible that Nemesis only did what he did so that he had the power to ward off the invaders from the north.

Still would be hard to say since the Agarthans were the ones who wanted to conquer Fodlan, and, as you said, he worked with them. I highly doubt he just wanted power to take out invaders, or else he wouldn't have gone through drastic measures such as killing the god of Fodlan and killing the Nabateans with a massacre.

Edited February 22, 2020 by MrPerson0

[omegaxis1]

9 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Still would be hard to say since the Agarthans were the ones who wanted to conquer Fodlan, and, as you said, he worked with them. I highly doubt he just wanted power to take out invaders, or else he wouldn't have gone through drastic measures such as killing the god of Fodlan and killing the Nabateans with a massacre.

The Agarthans likely had their own plans, but Nemesis only is indicated to rule over Faerghus region. If world domination was in Nemesis's agenda, he'd have conquered it in less than a year the second he raised an army. With the power him and his Elites commanded, it's hard to believe he couldn't have rallied an army in a short time and start conquering. There's no way for Rhea or Wilhelm would have been able to oppose him. 

[MrPerson0]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

The Agarthans likely had their own plans, but Nemesis only is indicated to rule over Faerghus region. If world domination was in Nemesis's agenda, he'd have conquered it in less than a year the second he raised an army. With the power him and his Elites commanded, it's hard to believe he couldn't have rallied an army in a short time and start conquering. There's no way for Rhea or Wilhelm would have been able to oppose him. 

If Nemesis wasn't unwilling to tell the Ten Elites about how he obtained his power, he likely was still working with TWSitD, who he had to have known were willing to take over the continent. It doesn't make sense that someone would hire you to kill the supposed god of this land without wanting to have power.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, MrPerson0 said:

If Nemesis wasn't unwilling to tell the Ten Elites about how he obtained his power, he likely was still working with TWSitD, who he had to have known were willing to take over the continent. It doesn't make sense that someone would hire you to kill the supposed god of this land without wanting to have power.

Again. With the power he commanded, how would he NOT be able to take over the continent before Rhea or Wilhelm could raise an army to oppose Nemesis? There's absolutely no sense behind it. In the end, whether he was still working with the Agarthans or not, it's not clear. What is clear is that conquest of Fodlan was already child's play for Nemesis during the years after the massacre of Zanado. 

No matter how much you go about it, world conquest simply wasn't in Nemesis's cards at all. He likely did not care for the lands beyond his own.

[MrPerson0]

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

With the power he commanded, how would he NOT be able to take over the continent before Rhea or Wilhelm could raise an army to oppose Nemesis?

Depends. It's possible that he did, and Wilhelm chose to betray him so he could control Fodlan instead . That being said, there is nothing that contradicts the church saying that Fodlan is suffering under Nemesis, and Maurice calling him a "King" is what backs this up. He might not have had a government, but he seemed to have chaos wherever he went.

Edited February 23, 2020 by MrPerson0

[omegaxis1]

Just now, MrPerson0 said:

Depends. It's possible that he did, and Wilhelm chose to betray him so he could control Fodlan instead. That being said, there is nothing that contradicts the church saying that Fodlan is suffering under Nemesis.

Now you're trying to go for the fan-theory that Wilhelm was allied with Nemesis, which is outright false. Wilhelm never once was indicated to be allied with him. In fact, the way Rhea talks of him, and the stories associated about them, it seems that Wilhelm and Rhea were possibly romantically involved. If Wilhelm was actually Nemesis's ally, Rhea would not have half as close as that. 

I won't deny that Fodlan was not in the best state, but we're talking about a period of time before nations were a thing after the Agarthan war. Meaning no Adrestia, no Faerghus, and now Leicester. There's no nations overall. So obviously there'd be widespread chaos as a result, especially if you consider how bad Faerghus's region's conditions are like. 

In the end, it's far too inconsistent to even claim that Nemesis wanted world conquest. If he did, Wilhelm never would have been able to oppose Nemesis i the first place. 

[MrPerson0]

16 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Now you're trying to go for the fan-theory that Wilhelm was allied with Nemesis, which is outright false.

That is true, I was just pointing it out as a possibility, seeing that it is as much as it's a theory that Nemesis wanted power to protect Fodlan from Sreng.

16 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

In fact, the way Rhea talks of him, and the stories associated about them, it seems that Wilhelm and Rhea were possibly romantically involved.

Just wondering, which stories showed that they are possibly romantically involved? The closest I could find was a stage play being reference in one of the DLC books, but that likely wasn't really accurate.

16 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I won't deny that Fodlan was not in the best state, but we're talking about a period of time before nations were a thing after the Agarthan war. Meaning no Adrestia, no Faerghus, and now Leicester. There's no nations overall. So obviously there'd be widespread chaos as a result, especially if you consider how bad Faerghus's region's conditions are like. 

In the end, it's far too inconsistent to even claim that Nemesis wanted world conquest. If he did, Wilhelm never would have been able to oppose Nemesis i the first place. 

I wouldn't say it's inconsistent to say he wanted world conquest because it's clear that he wanted power, and apparently had no lines in terms of getting it. I do admit that he didn't obtain conquest, but it's clear that he had some sort of control over Fodlan (seeing that he likely kept on creating war/strife).

Edited February 23, 2020 by MrPerson0

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

I wouldn't say it's inconsistent to say he wanted world conquest because it's clear that he wanted power, and apparently had no lines in terms of getting it. I do admit that he didn't obtain conquest, but it's clear that he had some sort of control over Fodlan (seeing that he likely kept on creating war/strife).

Like I said.

Wanting power does not equate to wanting to rule the world. Wanting power can extend to a VARIETY of things. Hell, many stories have people simply want power to do good, or just protect the things that matter to them. As I theorize, if there were actually invaders from the north, which there may be some merit given that present Faerghus suffers from Sreng invasions, it's very easy to believe that Nemesis was desperate for power and the Agarthans offered it to him. 

So he went to willingly perform the atrocious actions for the sake of protecting his home.

Yeah, Nemesis IS called a thief by the Agarthans and Rhea, but as Byleth says to Dimitri, even bandits might have stories behind them. 

As the point of this thread is, everyone lives under their own reality. Nemesis has his own.

[Crysta]

If you had the following choices, what would you bet on:

A) Nemesis wanting power for world domination

B) Nemesis wanting power for world peace

C) Nemesis wanting power for great justice

[omegaxis1]

15 minutes ago, Crysta said:

If you had the following choices, what would you bet on:

A) Nemesis wanting power for world domination

B) Nemesis wanting power for world peace

C) Nemesis wanting power for great justice

D) Just wanting to protect his home from invaders. 

[Crysta]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

D) Just wanting to protect his home from invaders. 

Great moniker to choose then, if that's the case.

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Great moniker to choose then, if that's the case.

Either you mean that in regards to how Nemesis is the name of the goddess of Retribution and Revenge, or you mean the "King of Liberation", which you CAN actually regard to how his home was invaded, and with the power of the Crests and Relics, liberated his home. 

In which case, both could apply, in that he attained retribution and revenge for the invasion of his home. But the thing about revenge is that it is objectively wrong and can cause dire consequences.