The True Tragedy of Three Houses

[Darkmoon6789]

2 minutes ago, Earth Worm Jim said:

Actually one of the books in CS reveals that Sothis was the one who destroyed the Agarthans, and why she did it.

  Hide contents

Sothis annihilated the Agarthans did so to protect the rest of humanity from the Agarthans. The Agarthans thought of themselves as gods and so actually destroyed other continents for not worshiping them. In order to stop them Sothis had to destroy them. They had zero problems will murdering entire continents of innocent people, but Sothis couldn't stand for it.

 

Thanks, I had been searching for the reason Sophis did that. Currently on my second playthrough (guess what I played first) with the golden deer and I haven't reached the point I can access that library yet. 

I was thinking that Sophis didn't seem like the type to commit genocide for no reason based on our interactions with her. 

39 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Whatever her flaws Edelgard is definitely not a tyrant. Even the families that tortured her family to death get away with their existence. Some people get killed or locked up but Ferdinand still becomes her prime minister if he doesn't defect and despite him being in on the plot Edelgard seems to foster very good relations with count Bergliez. Not exactly the acts of a tyrant.

As a whole Edelgard seems to be pretty benevolent for a conquering emperor. The widespread atrocities that other conquering nations such as Bern, Daein and Dohlr engage in are noticeably absent in the Adrestian empire. Even if you don't side with the empire we don't get word on them sacking towns or engaging in other war crimes. The war seems pretty clean aside from the crazy mole people. 

Many of the reasons I kind of admire Edelgard, she isn't your typical conqueror. This is actually another reason why I find her alliance with the Agarthians so regrettable, a pretty much ruined what would otherwise be a pretty clean war. It Edelgard could get rid of them. She should, but it didn't seem to be a realistic possibility. 

[Earth Worm Jim]

52 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Whatever her flaws Edelgard is definitely not a tyrant. Even the families that tortured her family to death get away with their existence. Some people get killed or locked up but Ferdinand still becomes her prime minister if he doesn't defect and despite him being in on the plot Edelgard seems to foster very good relations with count Bergliez. Not exactly the acts of a tyrant.

As a whole Edelgard seems to be pretty benevolent for a conquering emperor. The widespread atrocities that other conquering nations such as Bern, Daein and Dohlr engage in are noticeably absent in the Adrestian empire. Even if you don't side with the empire we don't get word on them sacking towns or engaging in other war crimes. The war seems pretty clean aside from the crazy mole people. 

Actually I believe that a lot of belief that Edelgard is a tyrant comes from the fact that she still forcefully took control of the continent and by conquering other countries  that had neither the want nor need of her to be their leader and then forced them under subjucation. It ultimately doesn't matter what self righteous reason she did it, she still subjugated the continent.  Also some of Hubert's endings are suspect.

Edelgard doesn't blame the other family members for the problems since they don't know about the Insurrection of Seven. Edelgard's war crimes basically amount to her allowing the Slithers to do as they pleased with the people of Hyrm. Also Hubert.

8 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Thanks, I had been searching for the reason Sophis did that. Currently on my second playthrough (guess what I played first) with the golden deer and I haven't reached the point I can access that library yet. 

It was actually revealed in Cindered Shadows, from a book that from the perspective of the Agarthans. It refers to Sothis as a false god, but hilariously enough it's hard not to be understanding of why Sothis felt the need to get rid of the Agarthans after they joyfully recount about how they annihilated 4 other continents.

[Darkmoon6789]

3 minutes ago, Earth Worm Jim said:

Actually I believe that a lot of belief that Edelgard is a tyrant comes from the fact that she still forcefully took control of the continent and by conquering other countries  that had neither the want nor need of her to be their leader and then forced them under subjucation. It ultimately doesn't matter what self righteous reason she did it, she still subjugated the continent.  Also some of Hubert's endings are suspect.

Edelgard doesn't blame the other family members for the problems since they don't know about the Insurrection of Seven. Edelgard's war crimes basically amount to her allowing the Slithers to do as they pleased with the people of Hyrm. Also Hubert.

It was actually revealed in Cindered Shadows, from a book that from the perspective of the Agarthans. It refers to Sothis as a false god, but hilariously enough it's hard not to be understanding of why Sothis felt the need to get rid of the Agarthans after they joyfully recount about how they annihilated 4 other continents.

Addressing the whole Hubert thing, he is always suspect. He frequently disobeys direct orders from Edelgard to show mercy if he believes that doing otherwise is in her best interest. 

Hubert is coldly rational but lacks empathy, he is however frequently right in his assertions. While he can ultimately be blamed for Edelgard's alliance with the Slitherers has Edelgard originally refused until she was convinced to accept by Hubert. What is even worse is that I actually find humorous logic to be flawless, doesn't make sense for Edelgard to go against the Slitherers at this point, doing so after the war is the superior tactical decision. Just another case of Hubert valuing Edelgard's life above any other. He realised the danger she would be in if she went against them, and he is completely correct about that. Hubert also frequently does things in secret without Edelgard's knowledge. I initially assumed him to be evil and a bad influence on Edelgard, but lately I am not so sure, however cold his perspective is it often makes sense.

While I am uncertain if I would consider Hubert evil, he's definitely worse than Edelgard.

Also, my understanding the Hyrm doesn't happen at all in crimson flower. 

While the conquest can easily make people in universe believe Edelgard is a tyrant, I do not think that make it so. She is just too good a ruler to possibly be considered tyrannical. She just kind of suffers from some bad PR due to her unfortunate alliance with the Agarthans, which however unfortunate it is does make tactical sense. Still think it reflects well on Edelgard that she hates having to tolerate these people until the war is over, I can tell how much that bothers her in almost every scene they are in.

[Earth Worm Jim]

17 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Addressing the whole Hubert thing, he is always suspect. He frequently disobeys direct orders from Edelgard to show mercy if he believes that doing otherwise is in her best interest. 

Hubert is coldly rational but lacks empathy, he is however frequently right in his assertions. While he can ultimately be blamed for Edelgard's alliance with the Slitherers has Edelgard originally refused until she was convinced to accept by Hubert. What is even worse is that I actually find humorous logic to be flawless, doesn't make sense for Edelgard to go against the Slitherers at this point, doing so after the war is the superior tactical decision. Just another case of Hubert valuing Edelgard's life above any other. He realised the danger she would be in if she went against them, and he is completely correct about that. Hubert also frequently does things in secret without Edelgard's knowledge. I initially assumed him to be evil and a bad influence on Edelgard, but lately I am not so sure, however cold his perspective is it often makes sense.

Hubert will always be a problem when one is evaluating Edelgard's worth as a leader as no matter what there are always things problems that she never has to evualte because Hubert seems it to be beneath her. It doesn't help that he enables her worst traits.

I wouldn't say that Hubert is a rational person or even say that he's right in his assertions if anything he's very irrational and his assertions are very wrong. Edelgard's beliefs that she shouldn't side with the Slithers was actually correct, as the Agarthans were far worse than the church, and were the ones with the actual god complex. Even worse, Rhea was the only one who stood a chance against the Agarthans' nukes, and Rhea, Claude, and Dimitri (as proven his support with Hapi)would have helped her out if she had actually gone to them. Despite projecting himself as pragmatic Hubert is far from such. Especially after Cindered Shadows I can't help but see Hubert's advice to Edelgard as laughably bad. The pragmatic choice would be to get rid of the people who had undermined the emperor's before, the Agarthans aren't just an Empire problem they're a Fodlan problem. Heck there's no guarantee that they won't just oust Edelgard from power even if she does ally with them. 

35 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Also, my understanding the Hyrm doesn't happen at all in crimson flower. 

It might still be happening. Ferdinand's paralogue was originally meant to be accessible in CF as well, you just weren't allowed to bring along Edelgard and Hubert. And Hanneman still says that Slithers are still doing their experiments are are still the Imperial army. Edelgard just isn't using them in her own personal army and I think that Duke Arundel is still in charge of Hyrm even in CF.

44 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

While the conquest can easily make people in universe believe Edelgard is a tyrant, I do not think that make it so. She is just too good a ruler to possibly be considered tyrannical. She just kind of suffers from some bad PR due to her unfortunate alliance with the Agarthans, which however unfortunate it is does make tactical sense. Still think it reflects well on Edelgard that she hates having to tolerate these people until the war is over, I can tell how much that bothers her in almost every scene they are in.

History is written by the winners. It doesn't matter how well of a leader Edelgard might think she is or how the Empire portrays her. One man's messiah may be another man's tyrant. Especially in this case when we actually do know she or rather Hubert does deal with dissenters. And that Edelgard might not be privy to that because Hubert tends to go behind her back. 

[Etrurian emperor]

15 minutes ago, Earth Worm Jim said:

I wouldn't say that Hubert is a rational person or even say that he's right in his assertions if anything he's very irrational and his assertions are very wrong. Edelgard's beliefs that she shouldn't side with the Slithers was actually correct, as the Agarthans were far worse than the church, and were the ones with the actual god complex. Even worse, Rhea was the only one who stood a chance against the Agarthans' nukes, and Rhea, Claude, and Dimitri (as proven his support with Hapi)would have helped her out if she had actually gone to them. Despite projecting himself as pragmatic Hubert is far from such. Especially after Cindered Shadows I can't help but see Hubert's advice to Edelgard as laughably bad. The pragmatic choice would be to get rid of the people who had undermined the emperor's before, the Agarthans aren't just an Empire problem they're a Fodlan problem. Heck there's no guarantee that they won't just oust Edelgard from power even if she does ally with them. 

Hubert's advice to ally with the Slitherers is pretty rational. Reform for Fodlan and not revenge on the crazy mole people is first on the agenda for Edelgard. They ally with the slitherers because they can't defeat the church and the other two nations with just the empire. In Crimson flower Hubert's advice to use the Slitherers until their use is up and then betrays them pays off with Edelgard defeating all her enemies, Fodlandian and mole people alike. Even in the other routes Edelgard would likely have defeated the Slitherers if she had won the war. 

Morally the mole people are worse than the church but Edelgard doesn't just want to crush evil but also reform Fodlan to a form she considers better. Defeating the church and unifying the continent are much more important steps to that then defeating some insane mole people. 

[Darkmoon6789]

8 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Hubert's advice to ally with the Slitherers is pretty rational. Reform for Fodlan and not revenge on the crazy mole people is first on the agenda for Edelgard. They ally with the slitherers because they can't defeat the church and the other two nations with just the empire. In Crimson flower Hubert's advice to use the Slitherers until their use is up and then betrays them pays off with Edelgard defeating all her enemies, Fodlandian and mole people alike. Even in the other routes Edelgard would likely have defeated the Slitherers if she had won the war. 

Morally the mole people are worse than the church but Edelgard doesn't just want to crush evil but also reform Fodlan to a form she considers better. Defeating the church and unifying the continent are much more important steps to that then defeating some insane mole people. 

One thing I have to give Hubert credit for is that his plan does end working and he is instrumental in the destruction of the Slitherers after the war. Edelgard most likely couldn't have done this without him.

But it is also good that Edelgard got Byleth as a second advisor, he/she is quite good at balancing out Hubert as he is often times too pragmatic. Byleth helps Edelgard stay in touch with her emotions and Hubert pushes her in a more cold and calculating direction.

I don't really approve of Hubert silencing the dissenters without Edelgard's approval, but I can't blame this on Edelgard as she has no knowledge of this. This is entirely on Hubert. unless, some dissenters are slitherers in which case, screw them, they do need to die.

[Earth Worm Jim]

29 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Hubert's advice to ally with the Slitherers is pretty rational. Reform for Fodlan and not revenge on the crazy mole people is first on the agenda for Edelgard. They ally with the slitherers because they can't defeat the church and the other two nations with just the empire. In Crimson flower Hubert's advice to use the Slitherers until their use is up and then betrays them pays off with Edelgard defeating all her enemies, Fodlandian and mole people alike. Even in the other routes Edelgard would likely have defeated the Slitherers if she had won the war. 

Morally the mole people are worse than the church but Edelgard doesn't just want to crush evil but also reform Fodlan to a form she considers better. Defeating the church and unifying the continent are much more important steps to that then defeating some insane mole people. 

The crazy mole people are a part of the reason why Fodlan wasn't able to reform sooner. Hubert's advice that Edelgard use the Slithers until she depletes their numbers isn't something that Edelgard does in CF, the only route where this is done is actually AM, ironically enough. In other routes she's the one who was used and in CF she doesn't use them at all. In fact, nothing is stopping the Slithers from just nuking Enbar if she gets too uppity. Hubert's plan was risky and just required that Edelgard play with fire. She could have still helped Fodlan without starting a war. The only reason why Edelgard "needed" the Slithers was just because she wanted to conquer Fodlan and didn't think that diplomacy was an option. 

@Darkmoon6789More like Hubert was lucky that the Slithers just didn't decide to nuke Enbar or use suberfudge to ensure her compliance for some reason. 

I actually think of CF Byleth is a non-entity in terms of helping Edelgard reign simply because CF is the most ignorant of the 4 Byleths. And what's ti stop Hubert from hiding things from Byleth as well?

Unfortunately, Hubert is still using Edelgard's authority to do these things so his actions do reflect on her regardless of whether or not she's aware of them. The actions that he performs in her name reflect on her regardless of whether or not she's aware id them. Ignorance is not an excuse. 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Earth Worm Jim

[Darkmoon6789]

18 minutes ago, Earth Worm Jim said:

The crazy mole people are a part of the reason why Fodlan wasn't able to reform sooner. Hubert's advice that Edelgard use the Slithers until she depletes their numbers isn't something that Edelgard does in CF, the only route where this is done is actually AM, ironically enough. In other routes she's the one who was used and in CF she doesn't use them at all. In fact, nothing is stopping the Slithers from just nuking Enbar if she gets too uppity. Hubert's plan was risky and just required that Edelgard play with fire. She could have still helped Fodlan without starting a war. The only reason why Edelgard "needed" the Slithers was just because she wanted to conquer Fodlan and didn't think that diplomacy was an option. 

@Darkmoon6789More like Hubert was lucky that the Slithers just didn't decide to nuke Enbar or use suberfudge to ensure her compliance for some reason. 

I actually think of CF Byleth is a non-entity in terms of helping Edelgard reign simply because CF is the most ignorant of the 4 Byleths. And what's ti stop Hubert from hiding things from Byleth as well?

Unfortunately, Hubert is still using Edelgard's authority to do these things so his actions do reflect on her regardless of whether or not she's aware of them. The actions that he performs in her name reflect on her regardless of whether or not she's aware id them. Ignorance is not an excuse. 

The only way she could help Fodlan without starting a war is if she first managed to deal with Thales and his organisation, something I don't think she could do alone at the point in time the war started. Her only real alternative would be to turn to Rhea for help and hope she is more understanding after explaining Thales was behind everything. I don't know how high the chances of this happening actually is after the Flame Emperor reveal. She is otherwise under real pressure from the Slitherers start the war. 

Byleth in crimson flower actually serves primarily as an emotional support for Edelgard, but that is actually vital as this Edelgard does become a lot less ruthless as a result. I am guessing she refuses to use the Slitherers out of principle in this case .

Maybe Hubert's actions do reflect on her reputation, but ultimately she isn't technically culpable. Not any more culpable than she is for the tragedy of Duskur just because Thales claims it was done to her benefit. Edelgard has been loudly condemning that action even to his face. I also really doubt it was beneficial to Edelgard because of what it did to Dimitri.

But in the end, maybe we should just agree on that. The circumstances in this game are very complicated and things aren't that black-and-white. Edelgard isn't all innocent or all guilty, the answer is somewhere in between. She is somewhat culpable for the slitherers actions due to the alliance, but not fully responsible, as a lot of these actions isn't something she really wants. 

I am willing to overlook a lot of Edelgard's less ideal actions because I do know she has good intentions, and that she can be better than she often comes across. In the end. Edelgard's rule isn't all that bad for the people in general, most of the problems exist only during the war. And I do have to give credit for successfully reforming the system and making something better, as well as getting rid of the slitherers, even if the game isn't very clear how exactly that was accomplished. 

[omegaxis1]

3 hours ago, Earth Worm Jim said:

Actually one of the books in CS reveals that Sothis was the one who destroyed the Agarthans, and why she did it.

  Reveal hidden contents

Sothis annihilated the Agarthans did so to protect the rest of humanity from the Agarthans. The Agarthans thought of themselves as gods and so actually destroyed other continents for not worshiping them. In order to stop them Sothis had to destroy them. They had zero problems will murdering entire continents of innocent people, but Sothis couldn't stand for it.

 

This is false. Read the dialogue better.

Spoiler

 

It's the Agarthans THINKING that Sohis would destroy them, not that she WOULD destroy them. Not to mention that the Agarthans that wrote that text never ONCE thought themselves as gods, but rather just calling Sothis the False God. In fact, the Agarthans refer to themselves as the "children of man" which is the exact opposite of what one that consider themselves gods would refer to themselves. In other words, no, what Rhea claimed about them thinking themselves as gods is false.

Likely the Agarthans wished to return the world to the "children of man", ie. humans, which Rhea simply takes as them thinking themselves as gods. Either way, what you said about them is blatantly false.

 

@Darkmoon6789

Here's a link to the contents of the library books from the Abyss:

Spoiler

https://imgur.com/a/IbluWTg

 

[Darkmoon6789]

29 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

This is false. Read the dialogue better.

  Hide contents

 

It's the Agarthans THINKING that Sohis would destroy them, not that she WOULD destroy them. Not to mention that the Agarthans that wrote that text never ONCE thought themselves as gods, but rather just calling Sothis the False God. In fact, the Agarthans refer to themselves as the "children of man" which is the exact opposite of what one that consider themselves gods would refer to themselves. In other words, no, what Rhea claimed about them thinking themselves as gods is false.

Likely the Agarthans wished to return the world to the "children of man", ie. humans, which Rhea simply takes as them thinking themselves as gods. Either way, what you said about them is blatantly false.

 

@Darkmoon6789

Here's a link to the contents of the library books from the Abyss:

  Hide contents

https://imgur.com/a/IbluWTg

 

Thanks, will read that once I have time. I have been kind of wondering for a while now which of these two factions technically struck first. Could be either as all sources we have on this are incredibly biased.
 

Spoiler

I wonder what Sothis did to be considered a threat

 

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Darkmoon6789 said:

Thanks, will read that once I have time. I have been kind of wondering for a while now which of these two factions technically struck first. Could be either as all sources we have on this are incredibly biased.
 

  Hide contents

I wonder what Sothis did to be considered a threat

 

A friend of mine actually looks up at quite a few references to Sothis, and there's a connection to Sothis to Tiamat in Babylonia myths, which find of steers the idea that Sothis is neither benevolent nor malevolent. In fact, the Nabateans worship Sothis as a god, but the Agarthans have their own beliefs. Their own gods, in fact. 

So if these random creatures came and said that Sothis was a god, that's basically pushing their beliefs onto the Agarthans. The huge draconic creatures telling them that their beliefs are wrong and Sothis is the true god.

[Darkmoon6789]

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

A friend of mine actually looks up at quite a few references to Sothis, and there's a connection to Sothis to Tiamat in Babylonia myths, which find of steers the idea that Sothis is neither benevolent nor malevolent. In fact, the Nabateans worship Sothis as a god, but the Agarthans have their own beliefs. Their own gods, in fact. 

So if these random creatures came and said that Sothis was a god, that's basically pushing their beliefs onto the Agarthans. The huge draconic creatures telling them that their beliefs are wrong and Sothis is the true god.

That does seem consistent with Rhea's behaviour in later ages. The old gods of the Agarthans is another thing I know absolutely nothing about. But it does seem like Thales is some kind of high priest for his people, so he obviously had a lot of faith in whatever their religion is. 

I also did look up the origin of the name Rhea quite a while back, it is apparently from Greek mythology, Rhea is actually the wife of Kronos and the mother of Zeus. Not sure how that is relevant to this character, but that seems to be where the name comes from.

Edelgard is a Germanic name simply meaning "noble protector", so very good connotations with that name. Hresvelg is a reference to Hresvelger, a giant in Norse mythology who had the power to turn into an eagle. Makes sense with the eagle on the imperial regalia

[omegaxis1]

13 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

That does seem consistent with Rhea's behaviour in later ages. The old gods of the Agarthans is another thing I know absolutely nothing about. But it does seem like Thales is some kind of high priest for his people, so he obviously had a lot of faith in whatever their religion is. 

I also did look up the origin of the name Rhea quite a while back, it is apparently from Greek mythology, Rhea is actually the wife of Kronos and the mother of Zeus. Not sure how that is relevant to this character, but that seems to be where the name comes from.

Edelgard is a Germanic name simply meaning "noble protector", so very good connotations with that name. Hresvelg is a reference to Hresvelger, a giant in Norse mythology who had the power to turn into an eagle. Makes sense with the eagle on the imperial regalia

What's interesting is that Thales is the Agastya, which is stated to be a "high-ranking" member of the Agarthan society. What's interesting is that "high-ranking" assumes that there's still a higher rank than that. This makes me believe that there are Agarthans out there with equal or even higher rank than that.

It might be a reference to how the mother of Zeus also birthed the other gods, and the last child she birthed is the one that became the ruler of the gods. Rhea created bodies to be Sothis's vessel, and the last one produced Byleth, which became the vessel.

[Darkmoon6789]

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

What's interesting is that Thales is the Agastya, which is stated to be a "high-ranking" member of the Agarthan society. What's interesting is that "high-ranking" assumes that there's still a higher rank than that. This makes me believe that there are Agarthans out there with equal or even higher rank than that.

It might be a reference to how the mother of Zeus also birthed the other gods, and the last child she birthed is the one that became the ruler of the gods. Rhea created bodies to be Sothis's vessel, and the last one produced Byleth, which became the vessel.

If there is anyone out of the surviving Agarthans with a higher rank than Thales and that is very bad news for crimson flower Edelgard. I would hope she would be able to make it

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

If there is anyone out of the surviving Agarthans with a higher rank than Thales and that is very bad news for crimson flower Edelgard. I would hope she would be able to make it

Well... actually, that's good for Edelgard. That just means that, where others generally stop, Edelgard doesn't. She would seek them all out, and one tat would take out the true leader of the Agarthans.

And there IS a possibility of that. 

Several of the Agarthans are named after the 7 Sages:

• Solon
• Bias
• Myson
• Thales
• Chilon
• Pittacus

Notice something? That's only 6. 

The last one is named Cleobulus, who is the grandfather or father-in-law of Thales with the Seven Sages.

[Darkmoon6789]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Well... actually, that's good for Edelgard. That just means that, where others generally stop, Edelgard doesn't. She would seek them all out, and one tat would take out the true leader of the Agarthans.

And there IS a possibility of that. 

Several of the Agarthans are named after the 7 Sages:

• Solon
• Bias
• Myson
• Thales
• Chilon
• Pittacus

Notice something? That's only 6. 

The last one is named Cleobulus, who is the grandfather or father-in-law of Thales with the Seven Sages.

Interesting idea, considering I do plan to write a story taking place during Edelgard's shadow war with the Slitherers. This is a concept I could use

[Earth Worm Jim]

3 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

The only way she could help Fodlan without starting a war is if she first managed to deal with Thales and his organisation, something I don't think she could do alone at the point in time the war started. Her only real alternative would be to turn to Rhea for help and hope she is more understanding after explaining Thales was behind everything. I don't know how high the chances of this happening actually is after the Flame Emperor reveal. She is otherwise under real pressure from the Slitherers start the war. 

Byleth in crimson flower actually serves primarily as an emotional support for Edelgard, but that is actually vital as this Edelgard does become a lot less ruthless as a result. I am guessing she refuses to use the Slitherers out of principle in this case .

Maybe Hubert's actions do reflect on her reputation, but ultimately she isn't technically culpable. Not any more culpable than she is for the tragedy of Duskur just because Thales claims it was done to her benefit. Edelgard has been loudly condemning that action even to his face. I also really doubt it was beneficial to Edelgard because of what it did to Dimitri.

But in the end, maybe we should just agree on that. The circumstances in this game are very complicated and things aren't that black-and-white. Edelgard isn't all innocent or all guilty, the answer is somewhere in between. She is somewhat culpable for the slitherers actions due to the alliance, but not fully responsible, as a lot of these actions isn't something she really wants. 

I am willing to overlook a lot of Edelgard's less ideal actions because I do know she has good intentions, and that she can be better than she often comes across. In the end. Edelgard's rule isn't all that bad for the people in general, most of the problems exist only during the war. And I do have to give credit for successfully reforming the system and making something better, as well as getting rid of the slitherers, even if the game isn't very clear how exactly that was accomplished. 

The hilarious thing is Rhea actually hates the Agarthans so Edelgard would have had help if she actually sought help. Up until Edelgard tried to raid the tomb, Rhea actually did like Edelgard. Claude also similarly expresses disappointment that Edelgard didn't think to ask for help, and Dimitri's support with Hapi just seems to mock her unwillingness to ask him for help as he offers it to a total stranger when she tells him about what the Slithers have done to innocent people. Edelgard was legitimately in a position where she was surrounded by potential allies but she refused to step out of her comfort.

That's just it though, Edelgard doesn't just need emotional support she needs a person who will challenge her to step out of her comfort zone. Who will look at her willingness to sacrifice innocent lives and question whether or not there was a more peaceful method and question her on why she doesn't seek it out. A person who treats her like the flawed teenager that she is.  Because Byleth may be emotional support but Byleth doesn't do this for Edelgard. Because Byleth in CF doesn't understand the situation themselves and so doesn't know that they should question her actions. Ferdinand is no good as he puts Edelgard on a pedestal and doesn't even starts to do it when it's far too late. 

I think that that's the problem that I have with Edelgard is that she's very much a means justify the ends character but in this case they really don't since there were literally mutual means of reaching the end the only thing she would have to do is accept that she can't personally be in control of everything. Which isn't a loss in my book. If one teenage girl stepping out of her comfort zone can make the world a better place with no sacrifices then she will just have to put up with being uncomfortable. If she truly wants to make the world a better place then sacrificing some potential control and comfort should be nothing. 

[Moltz23]

53 minutes ago, Earth Worm Jim said:

The hilarious thing is Rhea actually hates the Agarthans so Edelgard would have had help if she actually sought help. Up until Edelgard tried to raid the tomb, Rhea actually did like Edelgard. Claude also similarly expresses disappointment that Edelgard didn't think to ask for help, and Dimitri's support with Hapi just seems to mock her unwillingness to ask him for help as he offers it to a total stranger when she tells him about what the Slithers have done to innocent people. Edelgard was legitimately in a position where she was surrounded by potential allies but she refused to step out of her comfort.

That's just it though, Edelgard doesn't just need emotional support she needs a person who will challenge her to step out of her comfort zone. Who will look at her willingness to sacrifice innocent lives and question whether or not there was a more peaceful method and question her on why she doesn't seek it out. A person who treats her like the flawed teenager that she is.  Because Byleth may be emotional support but Byleth doesn't do this for Edelgard. Because Byleth in CF doesn't understand the situation themselves and so doesn't know that they should question her actions. Ferdinand is no good as he puts Edelgard on a pedestal and doesn't even starts to do it when it's far too late. 

I think that that's the problem that I have with Edelgard is that she's very much a means justify the ends character but in this case they really don't since there were literally mutual means of reaching the end the only thing she would have to do is accept that she can't personally be in control of everything. Which isn't a loss in my book. If one teenage girl stepping out of her comfort zone can make the world a better place with no sacrifices then she will just have to put up with being uncomfortable. If she truly wants to make the world a better place then sacrificing some potential control and comfort should be nothing. 

The situation Edelgard usually ends up in does reek of self-fulfilling prophecy, but at the same time, you're asking something that any normal and healthy person would do and get over with almost instantly.

Edelgard is NOT that sort of person.

She's a paranoid and distrustful wreck of a woman who has already dug too deep in shady shenanigans, and her conscience is the main reason she will never back down from her plan, as it would be more or less admitting she killed a ton of people for literally no noble reason. Unlike Dimitri, there's no one left she unconditionally trusts that could tell her "Live for yourself, not for others", while convincing her in the process, so the chances of her getting past her mentality are slim to none (you could argue to have Byleth take that role, but I see that being way too unrealistic).

Also, even if she asked help for the agarthan situation Fodlan has, at best it would be only for a temporary truce. Once they were dealt with, she would go back to her original plan of taking down the church and conquering Fodlan by force, which is still gonna end up forcing eveyone to take sides, and I don't see the other actors involved willingly siding with her when it happens.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Moltz23

[omegaxis1]

55 minutes ago, Earth Worm Jim said:

The hilarious thing is Rhea actually hates the Agarthans so Edelgard would have had help if she actually sought help. Up until Edelgard tried to raid the tomb, Rhea actually did like Edelgard. Claude also similarly expresses disappointment that Edelgard didn't think to ask for help, and Dimitri's support with Hapi just seems to mock her unwillingness to ask him for help as he offers it to a total stranger when she tells him about what the Slithers have done to innocent people. Edelgard was legitimately in a position where she was surrounded by potential allies but she refused to step out of her comfort.

That's just it though, Edelgard doesn't just need emotional support she needs a person who will challenge her to step out of her comfort zone. Who will look at her willingness to sacrifice innocent lives and question whether or not there was a more peaceful method and question her on why she doesn't seek it out. A person who treats her like the flawed teenager that she is.  Because Byleth may be emotional support but Byleth doesn't do this for Edelgard. Because Byleth in CF doesn't understand the situation themselves and so doesn't know that they should question her actions. Ferdinand is no good as he puts Edelgard on a pedestal and doesn't even starts to do it when it's far too late. 

I think that that's the problem that I have with Edelgard is that she's very much a means justify the ends character but in this case they really don't since there were literally mutual means of reaching the end the only thing she would have to do is accept that she can't personally be in control of everything. Which isn't a loss in my book. If one teenage girl stepping out of her comfort zone can make the world a better place with no sacrifices then she will just have to put up with being uncomfortable. If she truly wants to make the world a better place then sacrificing some potential control and comfort should be nothing. 

 

2 minutes ago, Moltz23 said:

The situation Edelgard usually ends up in does reek of self-fulfilling prophecy, but at the same time, you're asking something that any normal and healthy person would do and get over with almost instantly.

Edelgard is NOT that sort of person.

She's a paranoid and distrustful wreck of a woman who has already dug too deep in shady shenanigans, and her conscience is the main reason she will never back down from her plan, as it would be more or less admitting she killed a ton of people for literally no noble reason. Unlike Dimitri, there's no one left she unconditionally trusts that could tell her "Live for yourself, not for others", while convincing her in the process, so the chances of her getting past her mentality are slim to none (you could argue to have Byleth take that role, but I see that being way too unrealistic).

Also, even if she asked help for the agarthan situation Fodlan has, at best it would be only for a temporary truce. Once they were dealt with, she would go back to her original plan of taking down the church and conquering Fodlan by force, which is still gonna end up forcing eveyone to take sides, and I don't see the other actors involved willingly siding with her when it happens.

I think  BOTH of you are ignoring something serious.

The Insurrection of the Seven, an event that stripped Edelgard's family of all political power. The Agarthans are in CONTROL of the Empire. That's why I presented this thread with the beginning that if people were willing to talk, accept each other's beliefs and reality, and willing to all work together to change things for real, the story would be about going to war against the Empire to free it from the Agarthans, which would be to put Edelgard back in power. So basically like a Nyna situation. But the problem is that NO ONE is willing to talk to each other and overall pushes their own reality and never accepting each other's.

Dimitri refuses to talk to Edelgard, so Edelgard never has a chance to seeing Dimitri as anyone but a crown prince of a nation that is obedient to the Church. Edelgard tried to talk to Claude, and Claude basically made an unreasonable demand for even a chance to learn something. And Rhea's been lying to humanity for over a thousand years, and is in the habit of keeping many secrets. Why would she ever tell anyone something like the truth when she's been in the business of keeping the truth from people's hands?

Also, you're further getting the issue of relying so much on meta knowledge that you ignore how much info a realistic situation lacks. 

How is Edelgard supposed to know that Rhea hates the Agarthans? How is she supposed to know anything if the truth has been constantly kept secret from everyone by others? 

Speaking that everything could work out if people talked ignores how no one in the story is really willing to talk or actually try to see each other's point of view. 

[MrPerson0]

10 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

How is Edelgard supposed to know that Rhea hates the Agarthans?

Shouldn't that be a valid assumption to make seeing that the Agarthans hate Rhea/the Church? If Edelgard actually bothered to talk it to Rhea about this, things would have drastically changed.

[omegaxis1]

39 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Shouldn't that be a valid assumption to make seeing that the Agarthans hate Rhea/the Church? If Edelgard actually bothered to talk it to Rhea about this, things would have drastically changed.

Here's the other thing. Why should Edelgard trust someone that's lied and deceived humanity for over a thousand years? It's not false that Rhea HAS lied and deceived humanity for over a thousand years.

And Edelgard's seen how Rhea responds to people that opposes the Church, proving Rhea's own hypocrisy in how she tries to preach the goodness of the Church, but doesn't even allow actual fairness to anyone that threatens her. Or how she willingly protects nobles by hiding information from the commoners. Or how she was the one that made the doctrine that put Crests up to worship in the first place. 

So no, Rhea of all people proved why Edelgard can never trust her. 

People are willing to believe that Agarthans were arrogant people that thought themselves as gods, but the report in the Abyss speaks the complete opposite, where the Agarthans were rather humble enough in regards to themselves, in that they were "children of man", so they did not view themselves as gods, and that they even acknowledged that they fight a lot. Instead, they were simply scared of Sothis and the power she held and how she would kill them all.

Rhea only acts like things were perfect when Sothis is around, but this is the woman that worships Sothis and thinks that Sothis is perfect in every way. But we know that that is just not true. Fire Emblem has taught us many times that gods are far from perfect. 

[MrPerson0]

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

It's not false that Rhea HAS lied and deceived humanity for over a thousand years.

This was to protect the remaining Nabateans from persecution (since telling the truth about Nemesis and the Hero Relics would have to mention them).

And also, it's better to trust her over people who are threatening you with nukes.

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

but the report in the Abyss speaks the complete opposite

Just like you believe that Rhea isn't really trustworthy, the Agarthans themselves aren't really trustworthy, especially seeing with what they are willing to do to get what they want.

Edited February 24, 2020 by MrPerson0

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, MrPerson0 said:

This was to protect the remaining Nabateans from persecution.

Except no one knows Nabateans exist. Even during the War of Heroes. Nemesis is the only one that knew too. His Elites didn't. So if no one knows the Nabateans, then simply put, they were already fine. The entire religion and the lie about the Crests and such were just ways to make Rhea gather followers to fight a crusade against Nemesis for her revenge. 

In fact, it's never ONCE stated in the game that the lie about Crests was ever for the sake of protection. People really like to say that like it is, but it really isn't. 

3 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

And also, it's better to trust her over people who are threatening you with nukes.

First, meta knowledge. They never used nukes in routes until five years into the war. So Edelgard doesn't know anything about that.

Second, the Agarthans proved that they literally would not take on the church without Edelgard. That pretty much proves how they are not as strong as the Church either. Because the fact is that they aren't. The Church is far stronger. 

4 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Just like you believe that Rhea isn't really trustworthy, the Agarthans themselves aren't really trustworthy, especially seeing with what they are willing to do to get what they want.

Because the game has proven that everything is in regards to perspective. Rhea is already a  liar that HAS lied longer than any Agarthans have. That's a fact. And we know that she has a fanatical worship of Sothis, and believes that Sothis is perfect. 

So again, why should we actually believe for a fact that Agarthans back in the ancient past were actually people that thought themselves as gods? Hell, even Arundel and Myson never consider themselves as gods. 

In CF Chapter 18, Arundel regards how humans will finally be free of the false goddess Rhea. Myson states that the world will return to mortal hands.

Again, the Agarthans never once thought themselves as gods. They is arrogance, obviously, but they never once call themselves gods. And the report only adds to that.

To Rhea, the Agarthans not worshipping Sothis and instead wants to have humans run the world is the humans thinking themselves as gods. 

To Agarthans, someone coming to their land and calling themselves a god is just gonna piss anyone off. 

[MrPerson0]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Except no one knows Nabateans exist.

That is exactly the point of the lies and cover ups. It's to make sure the public didn't know about them, or can potentially discover them.

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

First, meta knowledge. They never used nukes in routes until five years into the war. So Edelgard doesn't know anything about that.

In that case, she really didn't need to work with them if she feared them having a grip over the Empire. She could have simply started a civil war in her own country and push her ideals there without affecting the rest of Fodlan. The issue is she believes that only she could fix Fodlan.

5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Rhea is already a  liar that HAS lied longer than any Agarthans have.

Except the Agarthans have been around just as long as she has been, and thus, have been lying for as long as her. There's a reason that they are the outright villains of the game.

6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

To Agarthans, someone coming to their land and calling themselves a god is just gonna piss anyone off. 

And, as far as we know, the Agarthans were the ones who started the war against Sothis instead of simply trying to coexist with her.

[Hardric62]

5 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

In that case, she really didn't need to work with them if she feared them having a grip over the Empire. She could have simply started a civil war in her own country and push her ideals there without affecting the rest of Fodlan. The issue is she believes that only she could fix Fodlan.

 

Civil war a little tiny bitty too much of dirty business to ever be called 'simple' things. And if she began taking the axe to Crest Nobility within Adrestia, what exactly are the odds of Rhea ignoring the leader of half of Foldan taking said axe to the social system she is enforcing by virtue of being the head of the continent's religion, when her track records for reactions to opposition to her rule... is rather blunt and cutting straight to the point? The Refrom's wars started for even less than that in reality.

Oh, and they are all these corrupt nobles in Faerghus (the same ones who killed Lambert) and Leicester (Which was on the way to bloody self-destruction before Calude played the miracle heir), who once they have looked at these sorts of measures within Adrestia, reailze it might make the peasants at home get some nasty ideas, will sure as duck play that heresy angle to get a nice crusade to erase this stupid idea that the nobility is anything else than the divinely mandated elite meant to rule Fodlan. And these people already proved they are ready to assassinate their way through uncooperative leaders if someone thinks of Claude and Dimitri.

 

And let's not forget the Mole Men, who will most certainly stir the pot for maximum carnage (assuming they didn't just putch Faerghus right after losing Adrestia).

Edited February 24, 2020 by Hardric62
Misclick led to way too early post.