The True Tragedy of Three Houses

[Crysta]

Just now, MrPerson0 said:

Nah, Verdant Winds was probably the best ending, until Cindered Shadows came along where Hapi takes out TWSitD no matter what in her solo ending, which makes Blue Lions the best ending imo (due to the least amount of main character deaths).

No. We don't know the particulars of Claude's government reform, and there's a reason why he's 100% okay with God Emperor Byleth. In his S rank, he makes it pretty clear how little faith he has in people in general.

CS putting a band-aid on Dimitri's ending by adding a single support chain that deals with the Slitherers doesn't make it good, either. There's the same lack of a general plan and Dimitri is the lord more willing to keep the previous system in place. He wants the merits of the Crestless to be recognized alongside the Crested, but he gives no real plan on just how he's going to make people do this lol. He's a lot of idealistic hot air and sincere good intentions but not much else. You get Archbishop Byleth instead of God Emperor Byleth, but it's a co-rulership that presumably operates the same way a King-Consort Claude would operate. The best you can say for it is that there's at least a separation of power (though I'm not sure what they're arguing about in his paired Byleth ending lol?).

I think people gravitate towards Claude's ending more because he's the least offensive on paper, but I think his theoretical government would be more top-heavy than the others. You probably wouldn't get much Crest emphasis just because he hasn't grown up in a society that covets them, at least, but factional leadership of the Alliance clearly grates on his nerves and he is quick to rebuff the idea of letting said Alliance lords divide the land between them.

15 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

That is a huge assumption to make, especially since Byleth didn't change their personalities in their S supports in CF. Same with the Slitherers getting "a more thorough trouncing".

Just because there isn't an immediate, rapid change in his personality doesn't mean he's not feeling the feels more. Not all of us can be Dimitri.

And the game insinuates pretty strongly that the lack of Byleth reacting to anything is linked to that damn crest stone being there.

16 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Except it is. Things like trying to kill enemies before they can even oppose and trying to conquer other countries as the aggressor more often than not put you in the darker light, especially in Fire Emblem games.

I don't think waiting for the head of a world religion you find corrupt to strike first after you announce your intentions to break away is very smart. And if war is inevitable - and I'm pretty sure it is with one of Rhea's primary motivations being to control Fodlan herself - might as well.

You can make the argument that Edelgard being unwilling to allow the other two nations to co-exist with her versus subjugating them is the more villainous angle that's more in alignment with other FE would-be conquerors, but the motivations are definitely different, and thus the results are. 

 

[MrPerson0]

4 minutes ago, eclipse said:

At the very least, Byleth gets a heartbeat.  That's worth something!

Yeah, that part was clear. Them getting emotions afterward, however, isn't.

1 minute ago, Crysta said:

CS putting a band-aid on Dimitri's ending by adding a single support chain that deals with the Slitherers doesn't make it good, either.

I explicitly mentioned Hapi's solo ending though, not her pairing with Dimitri. Then there's her paired ending with Dimitri and Balthus where she also takes them out. In the end, many people who had an issue with the Blue Lions ending were mainly those who noticed that they never took care of TWSitD, and Hapi simply fixes that.

7 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Just because there isn't an immediate, rapid change in his personality doesn't mean he's not feeling the feels more. Not all of us can be Dimitri.

And the game insinuates pretty strongly that the lack of Byleth reacting to anything is linked to that damn crest stone being there.

Sure, but it's still a pretty big assumption to make, seeing that nothing in the game even pointed to such a thing happening.

8 minutes ago, Crysta said:

I'm pretty sure it is with one of Rhea's primary motivations being to control Fodlan herself - might as well.

Pretty sure she wanted Sothis to rule Fodlan to "fix everything", not so she could try to rule over it herself.

8 minutes ago, Crysta said:

You can make the argument that Edelgard being unwilling to allow the other two nations to co-exist with her versus subjugating them is the more villainous angle that's more in alignment with other FE would-be conquerors, but the motivations are definitely different, and thus the results are. 

Just because the motivations are seemingly different doesn't make her any better than people like Walhart. He was essentially trying to do the same thing (stop the revival of Grima, though he apparently never revealed it outside of a private conversation), but he completely went about it the wrong way because a majority of people don't like conquerors and will always try to fight back.

[Crysta]

15 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Yeah, that part was clear. Them getting emotions afterward, however, isn't.

I expect people to read context and make the assumption without needing to have Byleth suddenly very emotional in their S support.

It certainly isn't a huge leap in logic. This sounds like nitpicking.

15 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

I explicitly mentioned Hapi's solo ending though, not her pairing with Dimitri. Then there's her paired ending with Dimitri and Balthus where she also takes them out. In the end, many people who had an issue with the Blue Lions ending were mainly those who noticed that they never took care of TWSitD, and Hapi simply fixes that.

Congratulations, the AM ending has been elevated to almost-CF level of Slitherer engagement. It is a stretch to contend that Dimitri and Hapi have knowledge as thorough as Edelgard and Hubert do, even if they eventually get to the same point. And how much harm they're likely to do and things the Slitherers are likely to mess up in the meantime is relevant.

I don't think it really is that debateable.

15 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Sure, but it's still a pretty big assumption to make, seeing that nothing in the game even pointed to such a thing happening.

Again, it isn't. The game doesn't need to spell out the obvious to me. It's an assumption I feel is well supported in the game.

15 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Pretty sure she wanted Sothis to rule Fodlan to "fix everything", not so she could try to rule over it herself.

It was very cruel, how the people of Fodlan forced Rhea to rule over it via a religion of her own making lmao

15 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Just because the motivations are seemingly different doesn't make her any better than people like Walhart. He was essentially trying to do the same thing (stop the revival of Grima, though he apparently never revealed it outside of a private conversation), but he completely went about it the wrong way because a majority of people don't like conquerors and will always try to fight back.

That's exactly what makes her better than most FE villains. Are you arguing intent and motivations only matter when regarding protagonists? Because that's how you differentiate them, too.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Crysta

[Eurydice]

15 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Obviously, there is a reason I am only considering Crimson Flower Edelgard on how she would be as a ruler after the war because she is the only version of her that lives after the war. Edelgard does need to actually succeed in order to have the impact she hoped for. It is also the reason why I consider Crimson Flower Edelgard to be the true Edelgard as this is her when she is fully realised as a person and when she is at her best. 

You like Edelgard as a character right ? So if you truly liked Edelgard as a character wouldn't you also want to realize her shortcomings and flaws that occur on other routes and her failures, than just trying to block them out and only focus on CF ? The other routes exist in 3H's exist for a reason. Just if you like Edelgard, you should like Edelgard and not just 1/2 of her.

You cannot try and block out what happens on the other routes, because it's still part of Edelgard characterization. It's unfair towards her character. It's fine to have CF as your favourite route, but you seem to really love and adore Edelgard, but also try and ignore what you dislike or don't agree with her character, which exist for a reason. Dimitri, Claude and the Church routes are not just for show, they are important too. Edelgard has her victorious story, but she also has her failures as well.

Not to call you a "fake Edelgard" fan, or anything....

—

About the whole Bernie/ fire thing, Bernie most likely agreed to be placed there on that map, yes, but I don't think that she would've ever agreed to be set on fire. That's the big issue people have a problem with, most people would agree to go into war if they felt it was for the right cause, but very few people would agree to be set on fire as a tactical war strategy, especially somebody like Berine who just wants to hide in her room with her plants.  

[Crysta]

Again, the tile Bernie occupies is never actually set on fire. This is not a thing that ever happens lol.

EDIT: Next time I'm on that map I'm just gonna screenshot it so I can point at it whenever this is brought up

Edited March 1, 2020 by Crysta

[omegaxis1]

3 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

I explicitly mentioned Hapi's solo ending though, not her pairing with Dimitri. Then there's her paired ending with Dimitri and Balthus where she also takes them out. In the end, many people who had an issue with the Blue Lions ending were mainly those who noticed that they never took care of TWSitD, and Hapi simply fixes that.

 

3 hours ago, Crysta said:

Congratulations, the AM ending has been elevated to almost-CF level of Slitherer engagement. It is a stretch to contend that Dimitri and Hapi have knowledge as thorough as Edelgard and Hubert do, even if they eventually get to the same point. And how much harm they're likely to do and things the Slitherers are likely to mess up in the meantime is relevant.

I don't think it really is that debateable.

The funny thing about this is that even WITH Hapi, it's STILL not confirmed whether the Agarthans have even been wiped out. Unlike the Jeritza ending with Byleth, where it states that the Agarthans are gone for good, Hapi's endings are still vague and ambiguous. People are free to believe this means they are gone, sure, but this just proves how Hapi is literally made specifically just to address the plotholes of not just Blue Lions, but also the other routes, so that it's made clear that the Agarthans do return, and who knows how much damage they cause by then.

In comparison to Crimson Flower where it's an unseen struggle. 

4 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

No matter how many flaws you try to look into it (which this game is full of unfortunately), you can't deny it was presented to us in the game as the sole reason for the assassination. Anything else you try to come up with really can't be fact until it's shown in the game.

Yeah, if the surface is all you're willing to look at. But that ain't how Edelgard is Everything about her is to look deeper into the context and analyze things. Because that's Edelgard's character. She's not a simple one dimensional character that has one set of goals. There are layers and layers of context that you gotta look through. 

Hence why your desire to try and think that she really wanted to assassinate Claude and Dimitri is downright silly given how she literally went with them out of the safety of the Knights of Seiros. If she wanted them dead, why did she follow? The only reason they got in trouble is cause Claude ran off like a jackass and Dimitri followed thinking Claude wanted to be a diversion. Her following them only put her in danger. So... yeah. If anything, her following them actually seems like she DIDN'T want them killed.

4 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

And yet, nothing in the game points this to actually being the reason, even when they brought Jeritza on as a character.

Ah yes, thank you for making it clear how people need to have their hands held for everything and need every detail explained. Fans are clearly incapable of actually analyzing context clues.

4 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

Nah, Verdant Winds was probably the best ending, until Cindered Shadows came along where Hapi takes out TWSitD no matter what in her solo ending, which makes Blue Lions the best ending imo (due to the least amount of main character deaths).

As mentioned above, even Hapi isn't like Jeritza that outright confirmed that the Agarthans are wiped out. But more than that, least character death's don't equal best route. I would actually say that Blue Lions holds the bloodiest route of them all. Ironic, the opposite of CF, the least bloody path. 

[Darkmoon6789]

22 minutes ago, Eurydice said:

You like Edelgard as a character right ? So if you truly liked Edelgard as a character wouldn't you also want to realize her shortcomings and flaws that occur on other routes and her failures, than just trying to block them out and only focus on CF ? The other routes exist in 3H's exist for a reason. Just if you like Edelgard, you should like Edelgard and not just 1/2 of her.

You cannot try and block out what happens on the other routes, because it's still part of Edelgard characterization. It's unfair towards her character. It's fine to have CF as your favourite route, but you seem to really love and adore Edelgard, but also try and ignore what you dislike or don't agree with her character, which exist for a reason. Dimitri, Claude and the Church routes are not just for show, they are important too. Edelgard has her victorious story, but she also has her failures as well.

Not to call you a "fake Edelgard" fan, or anything....

—

About the whole Bernie/ fire thing, Bernie most likely agreed to be placed there on that map, yes, but I don't think that she would've ever agreed to be set on fire. That's the big issue people have a problem with, most people would agree to go into war if they felt it was for the right cause, but very few people would agree to be set on fire as a tactical war strategy, especially somebody like Berine who just wants to hide in her room with her plants.  

Did I spend quite a bit of time discussing why I found it Edelgard's death to be quite valiant on her part and how even her transformation into a demonic beast was in the end of honourable? The fact that she is always willing to make the same sacrifices her soldiers do is a thing that applies to her no matter what route

What I am saying is that you cannot act as all timelines occurred simultaneously, Crimson Flower Edelgard straight up haven't done many of the things her counterparts in the other timelines did. So, judging this version of Edelgard for actions that never occurred in this timeline is quite unfair. There is a reason I don't hold burning down the kingdom capital against Rhea on other routes, it only happens in one timeline and therefore only applies to the Rhea of this timeline. Different versions of these characters should be judged separately as a wildly are the same person, different circumstances made them develop in different directions.

[Crysta]

6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Hence why your desire to try and think that she really wanted to assassinate Claude and Dimitri is downright silly given how she literally went with them out of the safety of the Knights of Seiros. If she wanted them dead, why did she follow? The only reason they got in trouble is cause Claude ran off like a jackass and Dimitri followed thinking Claude wanted to be a diversion. Her following them only put her in danger. So... yeah. If anything, her following them actually seems like she DIDN'T want them killed.

Honestly I'm not sure I buy the theory that Edelgard's assassination plot isn't really a poorly planned assassination plot but is instead a poorly planned attempt to install an ally with piss poor social skills as a professor. She probably could have just used another method to get rid of the professor that didn't involve hiring idiotic bandits; bribery is pretty safe.

I'm more willing to believe it was incautious/bad writing, like a certain scene in AM. 

[Darkmoon6789]

3 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Honestly I'm not sure I buy the theory that Edelgard's assassination plot isn't really a poorly planned assassination plot but is instead a poorly planned attempt to install an ally with piss poor social skills as a professor. She probably could have just used another method to get rid of the professor that didn't involve hiring idiotic bandits; bribery is pretty safe.

I'm more willing to believe it was incautious/bad writing, like a certain scene in AM. 

If assassination is the intent I do think it is rather dumb to include yourself on the list of targets, Edelgard is actually the closest to actually dying in this assassination attempt, if that actually happened, it would be one of the the worst of botched plans of all time. It does the weirdly uncharacteristic of her to make a plan this level of bad. 

[Crysta]

1 minute ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

If assassination is the intent I do think it is rather dumb to include yourself on the list of targets, Edelgard is actually the closest to actually dying in this assassination attempt, if that actually happened, it would be one of the the worst of botched plans of all time. It does the weirdly uncharacteristic of her to make a plan this level of bad. 

They were out together on a training exercise. If she suddenly left before the attack befell them, it would be suspicious. It would also be suspicious if Claude and Dimitri fell but she got out of it unscathed, so I have no doubt she intended to fight them and didn't really care if she killed them. All she has to do is survive and make it look like an incredibly unfortunate turn of events.

Which is still pretty dumb, but so is assuming Jeritza was going to be promoted in the professor's stead because Caspar - not exactly known for his great skill of deduction - thought he was the natural next choice. The guy can fight, so making him a combat instructor is fine, but there was a reason why they were considering the other guy instead, even though we have no idea what his qualifications were or who he was.

 

[Darkmoon6789]

11 minutes ago, Crysta said:

They were out together on a training exercise. If she suddenly left before the attack befell them, it would be suspicious. It would also be suspicious if Claude and Dimitri fell but she got out of it unscathed, so I have no doubt she intended to fight them and didn't really care if she killed them. All she has to do is survive and make it look like an incredibly unfortunate turn of events.

Which is still pretty dumb, but so is assuming Jeritza was going to be promoted in the professor's stead because Caspar - not exactly known for his great skill of deduction - thought he was the natural next choice. The guy can fight, so making him a combat instructor is fine, but there was a reason why they were considering the other guy instead, even though we have no idea what his qualifications were or who he was.

 

The actually don't think either version of the plan makes that much sense, the bandits seems woefully unprepared and was apparently not even warned that the Knights would be present. The fight is really only there as a tutorial and it seems to me like the writers might not have considered the implications. This event would have with the reveal of the identity of the Flame Emperor. 

[Crysta]

10 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

The actually don't think either version of the plan makes that much sense, the bandits seems woefully unprepared and was apparently not even warned that the Knights would be present. The fight is really only there as a tutorial and it seems to me like the writers might not have considered the implications. This event would have with the reveal of the identity of the Flame Emperor. 

Yeah that's more or less my own take. It feels like the writers were looking for a way to go from Point A to Point B without thinking about how realistic Edelgard concocting such a plan would be.

Can't see anyone looking at Kostas and going "yeah, this guy looks competent enough to carry out this high risk objective".

Edited March 1, 2020 by Crysta

[Darkmoon6789]

5 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Yeah that's more or less my own take. It feels like the writers were looking for a way to go from Point A to Point B without thinking about how realistic Edelgard concocting such a plan would be.

Can't see anyone looking at Kostas and going "yeah, this guy looks competent enough to carry out this high risk objective"... though to be fair he almost succeeds because Edelgard suddenly decides to drop her axe and use a dagger because ?????

That course of action almost made it seem like the real objective was to get herself killed so that she doesn't have to fulfil her role in Thales plan. Why would she drop the weapon? I am not buying for a second that she knew that Byleth would be able to save her. 

[Crysta]

2 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

That course of action almost made it seem like the real objective was to get herself killed so that she doesn't have to fulfil her role in Thales plan. Why would she drop the weapon? I am not buying for a second that she knew that Byleth would be able to save her. 

I think Byleth not jumping in between them would have ended better assuming she had the time to dodge or parry.

But that's not nearly as cinematic.

[Darkmoon6789]

10 minutes ago, Crysta said:

I think Byleth not jumping in between them would have ended better assuming she had the time to dodge or parry.

But that's not nearly as cinematic.

I guess it is a good bonding moment between them. If nothing else. I have read a theory that the game is deliberately trying to get the player to feel attached to Edelgard more so than the other house leaders. There is also the fact that nearly every tutorial is using Edelgard as the example character, is the game trying to tell us something? Almost makes me think that the player is kind of meant to do Crimson Flower first

[Crysta]

5 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I guess it is a good bonding moment between them. If nothing else. I have read a theory that the game is deliberately trying to get the player to feel attached to Edelgard more so than the other house leaders. There is also the fact that nearly every tutorial is using Edelgard as the example character, is the game trying to tell us something? Almost makes me think that the player is kind of meant to do Crimson Flower first

CF is their attempt to do an alternative, "darker" path where you side with the lord who is the primary antagonist in the other routes, so I'm not surprised that they may have herded people in that direction.

Should have put actual cutscenes in it, though, and not just at the bookends.

 

[Darkmoon6789]

5 minutes ago, Crysta said:

CF is their attempt to do an alternative, "darker" path where you side with the lord who is the primary antagonist in the other routes, so I'm not surprised that they may have herded people in that direction.

Should have put actual cutscenes in it, though, and not just at the bookends.

 

The route isn't perfect, definitely needs more cutscenes, but I think it is pretty strong overall. The best aspect is the chemistry between Edelgard and Byleth, to me it kind of feels like this is the way things are meant to be. Edelgard even hints at this during her death scene in verdant wind, that she hoped they could walk this path together. It is almost like Edelgard even in other routes feels like something is off without Byleth and her side. 

It is also kind of interesting that for the supposedly "darker" path, Crimson Flower is the one that for me feels the most bright and hopeful. The one that feels the darkest to me is Azure Moon, which is all about things going to crap and Dimitri's descent into madness. By the same point that Dimitri loses his mind, in Crimson Flower, Edelgard is saved by Byleth "reaching out their hand", preventing her from going down the dark path altogether. I also feel like Crimson Flower had very few setbacks and were quite smooth sailing for the most part for Edelgard, no real sign of an uphill struggle. Not to mention a ending showcasing what is in my opinion the brightest future.

The way I interpret the edge of dawn song is that it is about the importance of whenever Byleth reached out their hand to Edelgard or not. It is a decision that shapes the entire game and the future of the continent. In my mind. This entire game is about showing how much of a difference one person's support can really do, which is why Byleth's actions shape the game so drastically

[Crysta]

3 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

The route isn't perfect, definitely needs more cutscenes, but I think it is pretty strong overall. The best aspect is the chemistry between Edelgard and Byleth, to me it kind of feels like this is the way things are meant to be. Edelgard even hints at this during her death scene in verdant wind, that she hoped they could walk this path together. It is almost like Edelgard even in other routes feels like something is off without Byleth and her side. 

The chemistry angle is going to be different for everyone. I was a pretty big troll to her when I played it, but that's because I like snarky dialogue options. It was the second to last route I played (currently on Silver Snow) so I didn't feel like something was amiss there. Not sure if I would feel like there was even if I did play CF first, though; I appreciate her role in the other routes, too.

6 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

It is also kind of interesting that for the supposedly "darker" path, Crimson Flower is the one that for me feels the most bright and hopeful. The one that feels the darkest to me is Azure Moon, which is all about things going to crap and Dimitri's descent into madness. By the same point that Dimitri loses his mind, in Crimson Flower, Edelgard is saved by Byleth "reaching out their hand", preventing her from going down the dark path altogether. I also feel like Crimson Flower had very few setbacks and were quite smooth sailing for the most part for Edelgard, no real sign of an uphill struggle. Not to mention a ending showcasing what is in my opinion the brightest future.

In the most literal sense, Verdant Wind is visually the "brightest" with its imagery and dialogue.

Azure Moon is about starting in the dark and eventually emerging into the light and the post-timeskip reunion cutscene and ending cutscene captures that essence well. Can't say I'm a fan of how messily they resolved Dimitri's arc, but it does what it sets out to do.

Edelgard, by contrast, feels like she's steeling her resolve for what's to come next. The route makes it clear that she's aware of the puddle of blood growing beneath her feet, but she finds her ideals worth pursuing in spite of that. The ending arguably being the "best" one for Fodlan lends credence to that belief. But, you know, I'm still brutally murdering my former students to get there lol

18 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

The way I interpret the edge of dawn song is that it is about the importance of whenever Byleth reached out their hand to Edelgard or not. It is a decision that shapes the entire game and the future of the continent. In my mind. This entire game is about showing how much of a difference one person's support can really do, which is why Byleth's actions shape the game so drastically

I don't like Byleth as a pseudo-self-insert and part of the reason why I naturally gravitated towards Claude was because I didn't sense I needed to be his emotional crutch to not do war crimes

And because I have little emotional investment in fixing Dimitri or Edelgard and being their moral compass, it's easier for me not to romanticize either of them.

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

Nah, Verdant Winds was probably the best ending, until Cindered Shadows came along where Hapi takes out TWSitD no matter what in her solo ending, which makes Blue Lions the best ending imo (due to the least amount of main character deaths)..

Honestly all the the endings really lean on my suspension of disbelief. As I said earlier I think Edelgard seizing absolute power set a bad precedent to the extent that even with her reforms things would quickly break down as soon as she'd dead. Claude's ending seems even more optimistic. The Almyrians have been raiding Fodlan for centuries and Fodlan's have a really dim view of Almyrians. Opening up to trade is definitely a good thing, but I feel like those prejudices won't die quickly and a lot of conflict will brew in the meantime. Silver Snow depends entirely on how one views Byleth's character, It can either be maintaining the status quo only with Byleth having a kinder touch than Rhea, or it oculd mean Rhea has been replaced with an emotionless sociopath who might have good intentions but won't hesitate to be just as authoritarian as she was. Especially if Byleth is immortal. Then there's Azure Moon which is just what?

6 hours ago, Crysta said:

You can make the argument that Edelgard being unwilling to allow the other two nations to co-exist with her versus subjugating them is the more villainous angle that's more in alignment with other FE would-be conquerors, but the motivations are definitely different, and thus the results are. 

 

Edelgard might be a nicer person than Ashnard, but I really can't see any difference in their politics at all.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Jotari

[Crysta]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Honestly all the the endings really lean on my suspension of disbelief. As I said earlier I think Edelgard seizing absolute power set a bad precedent to the extent that even with her reforms things would quickly break down as soon as she'd dead. Claude's ending seems even more optimistic. The Almyrians have been raiding Fodlan for centuries and Fodlan's have a really dim view of Almyrians. Opening up to trade is definitely a good thing, but I feel like those prejudices won't die quickly and a lot of conflict will brew in the meantime. Silver Snow depends entirely on how one views Byleth's character, It can either be maintaining the status quo only with Byleth having a kinder touch than Rhea, or it oculd mean Rhea has been replaced with an emotionless sociopath who might have good intentions but won't hesitate to be just as authoritarian as she was. Especially if Byleth is immortal. Then there's Azure Moon which is just what?

Expecting the ending to include the nitty gritty details of what unfolds afterwards is probably unrealistic, so they go with the broad strokes and since you spent so much time playing the game give you a pseudo happily-ever-after ending. Because going for the far more realistic "everything goes to shit about a decade later because of the sheer amount of variables at play and how much could go wrong" probably wouldn't go over well.

I have yet to play a Fire Emblem that takes that tack.

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Edelgard might be a nicer person than Ashnard, but I really can't see any difference in their politics at all.

Alright. You also consider her an idiot because she operates on biases and limited knowledge like a normal person realistically would, so I'm reluctant to trust your judgment but also not willing to play another game just to see where you're probably wrong. I'll leave someone else to do that.

[Jotari]

21 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Expecting the ending to include the nitty gritty details of what unfolds afterwards is probably unrealistic, so they go with the broad strokes and since you spent so much time playing the game give you a pseudo happily-ever-after ending. Because going for the far more realistic "everything goes to shit about a decade later because of the sheer amount of variables at play and how much could go wrong" probably wouldn't go over well.

I have yet to play a Fire Emblem that takes that tack.

That's one way to see things, another is that depicting great social change and upheaval with an ending of "Everything was great afterwards!" is a bit disingenuous.

21 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Alright. You also consider her an idiot because she operates on biases and limited knowledge like a normal person realistically would, so I'm reluctant to trust your judgment but also not willing to play another game just to see where you're probably wrong. I'll leave someone else to do that.

I don't consider her an idiot because she works off of limited knowledge. It's because I think she's being very blatantly manipulated and doesn't realize it. Not that that really has anything at all to do with comparing her politics to Ashnard's (who by the by was also being manipulated).

Edited March 1, 2020 by Jotari

[Crysta]

Just now, Jotari said:

That's one way to see things, another is that depicting great social change with an ending of "Everything was great afterwards!" is a bit disingenuous.

It's the standard.

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I don't consider her an idiot because she works off of limited knowledge. It's because I think she's being very blatantly manipulated and doesn't realize it.

Okay, where should it be blatantly obvious to her? Remember she hasn't played the other routes like you have.

[Darkmoon6789]

21 minutes ago, Crysta said:

The chemistry angle is going to be different for everyone. I was a pretty big troll to her when I played it, but that's because I like snarky dialogue options. It was the second to last route I played (currently on Silver Snow) so I didn't feel like something was amiss there. Not sure if I would feel like there was even if I did play CF first, though; I appreciate her role in the other routes, too.

In the most literal sense, Verdant Wind is visually the "brightest" with its imagery and dialogue.

Azure Moon is about starting in the dark and eventually emerging into the light and the post-timeskip reunion cutscene and ending cutscene captures that essence well. Can't say I'm a fan of how messily they resolved Dimitri's arc, but it does what it sets out to do.

Edelgard, by contrast, feels like she's steeling her resolve for what's to come next. The route makes it clear that she's aware of the puddle of blood growing beneath her feet, but she finds her ideals worth pursuing in spite of that. The ending arguably being the "best" one for Fodlan lends credence to that belief. But, you know, I'm still brutally murdering my former students to get there lol

I don't like Byleth as a pseudo-self-insert and part of the reason why I naturally gravitated towards Claude was because I didn't sense I needed to be his emotional crutch to not do war crimes

And because I have little emotional investment in fixing Dimitri or Edelgard and being their moral compass, it's easier for me not to romanticize either of them.

That is fine, I am just describing my subjective experience and why the Crimson Flower route made me feel way I did. 

As for the murdering former students thing, there is a reason. I tried to spare as many as possible, but is someone insists on dying for their cause I will not deny them the right to make that decision, I am also quite sure you end up killing fellow students in any route. I think the Edelgard thing to do is to show respect to those willing to die for a cause, even if it is in opposition to ours. 

I think part of the reason I am so attached to Edelgard is in fact that I do like feeling like my support is needed, she truly relies on Byleth and that makes her very human. I do like Claude, he's charming, intelligent and quite funny, if I were gay. He would be the type of guy I would like to date.

About Byleth and Edelgard, I did get a description once that fits why I think the two works so well together. They both have muted emotions in a sense as Edelgard is quite detached and have trust issues due to her trauma. They are both experiments, the supposed "chosen ones" for two opposing sides meant to bring "salvation". But in Crimson flower they do decide that they have more in common with each other, people who were meant to be mortal enemies, joining forces to reject the destiny thrust upon them by others. 

[Jotari]

7 minutes ago, Crysta said:

It's the standard.

That doesn't make it good. Three Houses is one of the games in the series that attempts to be more nuanced than its predecessors, so the fact that its reluctant to actually commit to the nuance (a lot of it I imagine stemming from the multiple delays in production more than anything else) is why I'm quite critical of it. If you try to give me a nuanced conflict but neglect to give me nuanced results of the conflict, then I'm going to question things.

7 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Okay, where should it be blatantly obvious to her? Remember she hasn't played the other routes like you have.

Well in the fact that every one of her actions are being done in service of the people she believes to be are her enemies. And the whole reason she has the opinions she does stems from what they've done to her too. And her only method of rationalizing this is just assuming she can kill them all after the war is over.

6 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I do like Claude, he's charming, intelligent and quite funny, if I were gay. He would be the type of guy I would like to date.

Shame Claude himself isn't gay.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Jotari

[Crysta]

20 minutes ago, Jotari said:

That doesn't make it good.

What endings would you propose that are better?

20 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well in the fact that every one of her actions are being done in service of the people she believes to be are her enemies. And the whole reason she has the opinions she does stems from what they've done to her too. And her only method of rationalizing this is just assuming she can kill them all after the war is over.

No, she believes she is using them to achieve her own ends. At no point does she take orders from them. In fact, they seem to get in the way of her plans and piss her off more than anything else. They're allies simply because they have a common enemy: they do not have aligned end goals.

And yeah it turns out trauma has an effect on her motivations. How does that make her an idiot? My trauma plays an indelible role in how I make decisions, too.

That said, I have not been tortured by mole people and I can rationalize her actions. You may not like them, but they're not coming from a completely outlandish place.

23 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

As for the murdering former students thing, there is a reason. I tried to spare as many as possible, but is someone insists on dying for their cause I will not deny them the right to make that decision, I am also quite sure you end up killing fellow students in any route. I think the Edelgard thing to do is to show respect to those willing to die for a cause, even if it is in opposition to ours. 

I went the for the whole warlord experience and didn't recruit outside of Manuela/Hanneman/Mercedes for Jeritza supports. It was a deliberate choice, but recruiting everyone just kind of dulls the impact of the narrative, imo. You DO have to kill a few people in every route, but they don't yell at you about how could you betray them quite so much.

23 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I think part of the reason I am so attached to Edelgard is in fact that I do like feeling like my support is needed, she truly relies on Byleth and that makes her very human.

yay for codependency

Support is cool and all but what matters more to me is that the other person is capable of loving and trusting themselves without seeking my validation. I don't think Edelgard actually needs Byleth in this manner so it feels kind of off that Byleth not being there is the thing that makes her go off the deep end, tbh. Doesn't help that Byleth reacts more than offers any, you know, sage advice or constructive criticism.

But whatever. Self-inserts are like that.

23 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

About Byleth and Edelgard, I did get a description once that fits why I think the two works so well together. They both have muted emotions in a sense as Edelgard is quite detached and have trust issues due to her trauma. They are both experiments, the supposed "chosen ones" for two opposing sides meant to bring "salvation". But in Crimson flower they do decide that they have more in common with each other, people who were meant to be mortal enemies, joining forces to reject the destiny thrust upon them by others. 

I guess lol. I could see it if I ascribe additional personality traits to Byleth that don't really manifest in game.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Crysta