The True Tragedy of Three Houses

[Darkmoon6789]

6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

No one will EVER avoid being biased. It's part of human nature. Even if they try not to be, it's rare for that to happen. And even then, some bias can be applied. 

What's important is being able to look at the other side. Believe me, I had a HARD time seeing Dimitri's side for the most part. Toxic fans REALLY killed my ability to like him. But getting away from reddit helps a lot. This place helped me get the worst of the toxins out. 

I do think this place is a lot better when it comes to debates. I have also had some really bad experiences elsewhere, one of them involving a discussion about Edelgard turning into a incredibly toxic debate about theology where I gets called a devil worshipper for being agnostic and not a believer in objective morality. You can probably imagine that made me very angry. Not liking Edelgard is one thing, but where I am starting to have a real problem with people is one they deny her basic humanity and are unable to see any good in her at all. Some people are really starting to sound like Rhea with their insistence that Edelgard deserves to burn in the internal fire for her crimes. Which is a primary reason for why I really don't like the Archbishop I do feel sympathy for her because of her traumatic past, but Rhea is frequently delusional and entirely merciless for anyone going against the church. She immediately jumped on the conclusion that Edelgard wants to make herself a new God, which is ridiculous. Makes me wonder how reliable her word is when it comes to the Agarthans seeing themselves as Gods.

I have a complicated relationship with Dimitri, I do think he is a good character, but his assumption that Edelgard must be behind the tragedy is completely ridiculous and there is basically no evidence to support this assumption. Kind of reminds me of some people I have talked to in the past that blames Edelgard for things she didn't even do. I have even seen people argue that Edelgard was responsible for murdering her siblings to take the throne, which is just completely wrong. But I do also kind of ship Edelgard and Dimitri, they would make a good pair if there ever was a timeline where they could overcome their differences. But this would essentially require end of azure moon Dimitri and crimson flower Edelgard to coexist in the same timeline. I guess I am basically saying that Dimitri at the end is entirely fine, but I despise the person he became when he was obsessed with revenge, the boar is truly dangerous. I really don't like revenge being confused with justice, in my min eye for an eye is a false principle that just leads to the cycle of violence. In that sense Edelgard has a far more noble motive

[Crysta]

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

I wouldn't have Edelgard be tortured by them in the first place. That would make her discontent with the system more her own choice and her willingness to work with the Agrathans require less mental gymnastics to justify.

Not even in the years of the game, they're the ones responsible for implementing the Crest system to begin with.

I don't think you even need mental gymnastics to justify it. It's a clear relationship of convenience.

No they're not. They're responsible for the creation of the crests, not the system that upholds their influence. They did not assign any additional meaning behind them beyond being tools for power.

8 hours ago, Eurydice said:

That's very YMMV though. Personally, at the moment, a guess a good example right now would be that I'm not fond of Edelgard at the moment but I want to get all information and facts before making a final judgement on her. Play all routes and fully understand her and her motives, than just jumping on the Edel or Rhea or whomever sucks train...

Edel as a character doesn't do that, she jumps on the "church sucks", "Rhea is evil" train and doesn't stop. Idiotic ? Maybe, but it's not very wise, and people die because of it. 

That's a strange way of putting it. She wants Rhea out of her position, at the very least, so humanity can reclaim their right to govern themselves and she can uproot the nobility and class system at the heart of a significant amount of Fodlan's problems. Rhea thinks she's upholding peace, but in reality it's just that the multitude of problems her system is responsible for really don't bother her that much; it's better than humanity getting too advanced once again.

The church does suck. With how hard the game hits you over the head with what's wrong with it, it's impressive that this is YMMV.

6 hours ago, Eurydice said:

Though, Claude is highly suspicious of Rhea and the church as well, though he holds back until he gets all the answers.

Claude is new to Fodlan. It makes sense for him to be more cautious. But even so, he's pretty adamantly convinced that Rhea's his primary obstacle.

I wonder why.

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Crysta said:

I don't think you even need mental gymnastics to justify it. It's a clear relationship of convenience.

No they're not. They're responsible for the creation of the crests, not the system that upholds their influence. They did not assign any additional meaning behind them beyond being tools for power.

Yeah. Just like how the Agarthans might be behind Lambert's death, but they didn't tell Faerghus to commit genocide. That's Faerghus being so racist. The Agarthans just leech off of the problems like parasites. 

39 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I do think this place is a lot better when it comes to debates. I have also had some really bad experiences elsewhere, one of them involving a discussion about Edelgard turning into a incredibly toxic debate about theology where I gets called a devil worshipper for being agnostic and not a believer in objective morality. You can probably imagine that made me very angry. Not liking Edelgard is one thing, but where I am starting to have a real problem with people is one they deny her basic humanity and are unable to see any good in her at all. Some people are really starting to sound like Rhea with their insistence that Edelgard deserves to burn in the internal fire for her crimes. Which is a primary reason for why I really don't like the Archbishop I do feel sympathy for her because of her traumatic past, but Rhea is frequently delusional and entirely merciless for anyone going against the church. She immediately jumped on the conclusion that Edelgard wants to make herself a new God, which is ridiculous. Makes me wonder how reliable her word is when it comes to the Agarthans seeing themselves as Gods.

Its why I have a hard time believing what she says. I know the Agarthans are cartoonishly evil, but with how 3H is, everyone has some story behind them. Abyss just reveals that they were not actually thinking themselves as gods. 

41 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I have a complicated relationship with Dimitri, I do think he is a good character, but his assumption that Edelgard must be behind the tragedy is completely ridiculous and there is basically no evidence to support this assumption. Kind of reminds me of some people I have talked to in the past that blames Edelgard for things she didn't even do. I have even seen people argue that Edelgard was responsible for murdering her siblings to take the throne, which is just completely wrong. But I do also kind of ship Edelgard and Dimitri, they would make a good pair if there ever was a timeline where they could overcome their differences. But this would essentially require end of azure moon Dimitri and crimson flower Edelgard to coexist in the same timeline. I guess I am basically saying that Dimitri at the end is entirely fine, but I despise the person he became when he was obsessed with revenge, the boar is truly dangerous. I really don't like revenge being confused with justice, in my min eye for an eye is a false principle that just leads to the cycle of violence. In that sense Edelgard has a far more noble motive

You know, I actually considered HOW Dimitri came to the conclusion, and I think that he's literally been manipulated by Thales the entire time. I think any form of "evidence" that Dimitri finds is just something Thales did on purpose to make him go up against Edelgard. He does indicate that he wants him and Edelgard to kill one another. 

Edelgard is stronger than Dimtiri, due to bearing the Crest of Flames, which is by default the most powerful Crest. But Dimitri's raw strength from his Crest and obsession with killing Edelgard made him someone that can at least wound even Edelgard.

[Ottservia]

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

I wouldn't have Edelgard be tortured by them in the first place. That would make her discontent with the system more her own choice and her willingness to work with the Agrathans require less mental gymnastics to justify.

I don't think the problem really is that it requires mental gymnastics to side with the agarthans because it's made very clear in Hubert's paralogue that it's an enemy of my enemy situation and that Hubert is the one who actually insisted on asking for their aid not Edelgard. If anything she'd rather not work with them. The problem with her backstory is that it's never really relevant within the narrative at least to any meaningful capacity. It sort of explains why she is the way she is and it explains why she views this current system s because if the current system wasn't in place then the agarthans would not be able to get away with what they did at least by her logic. The flaws in the system is what allowed the agarthans to do what they did at least from my understanding. The main problem is that aside from her supports, this torture and the trauma that resulted from it is never really brought up again in the story nor is it really addressed making it feel extremely disconnected from everything else. Her backstory explains the shit we need to know to understand her character but it's not relevant to anything else that happens and that's really the main issue I have with it. It's only brought up like once in a support and that's it. I'd be fine with it if it was a side character like Lysithea but we're talking about the main character here. I'd expect this backstory to be brought up again in a meaningful way but it's not. Like if they want me to truly believe that this backstory is why she thinks she does, it should be brought up more.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Ottservia

[Darkmoon6789]

5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah. Just like how the Agarthans might be behind Lambert's death, but they didn't tell Faerghus to commit genocide. That's Faerghus being so racist. The Agarthans just leech off of the problems like parasites. 

Its why I have a hard time believing what she says. I know the Agarthans are cartoonishly evil, but with how 3H is, everyone has some story behind them. Abyss just reveals that they were not actually thinking themselves as gods. 

You know, I actually considered HOW Dimitri came to the conclusion, and I think that he's literally been manipulated by Thales the entire time. I think any form of "evidence" that Dimitri finds is just something Thales did on purpose to make him go up against Edelgard. He does indicate that he wants him and Edelgard to kill one another. 

Edelgard is stronger than Dimtiri, due to bearing the Crest of Flames, which is by default the most powerful Crest. But Dimitri's raw strength from his Crest and obsession with killing Edelgard made him someone that can at least wound even Edelgard.

Well, Arundel does seem to take quite a bit of amusement from the fact that Dimitri and Edelgard are trying to kill each other, that does suggest he is behind it. 

What does the crest of flames actually do in the lore? I do imagine most crests are stronger in universe than they are in the game as the effect of most including the crest of flames is quite minor, not exactly the sort of thing, that it is worth sacrificing most of your lifespan to get. I am assuming that the crest of flames grant regeneration given its in game effect

[Etrurian emperor]

17 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Edelgard is stronger than Dimtiri, due to bearing the Crest of Flames, which is by default the most powerful Crest. But Dimitri's raw strength from his Crest and obsession with killing Edelgard made him someone that can at least wound even Edelgard.

I think its the other way around actually and that Dimitri is stronger than Edelgard. In the Holy Tomb she's very clearly outmatched and even seems a little nervous about Dimitri easily slaughtering her guards. 

Edelgard's crest might be stronger but that is not the only thing to consider. Having a powerful weapon is handy but your opponent can compensate by being more skilled or more powerful. Aside from seemingly outmatching her in the tombs Dimitri is bigger by a very large margin and he has a much richer combat history all their lives. Fighting is a very core trait of Dimitri. Smollmitri already swung swords around with enough force to break them and Dimitri already had war experience before coming to the academy. Lastly Dimitri's tenure as a crazy hobo was half a decade filled with endless fighting and bloodshed. 

In contrast Edelgard never struck me as that much as a fighter. Unlike Dimitri its never really said she trained much as a child, she has no combat experience before coming to the monastery and its probably for a reason that the flame emperor generally lets the Deathknight do the fighting. That's not to say Edelgard isn't powerful. Even as a student she apparently could slay multiple demonic beasts on her own and with her two crests she's very special. I just don't think she's as naturally gifted as a fighter as Dimitri nor as skillfully trained or experienced. The only time we see them fight from a pure lore perspective Edelgard is on the losing side of things and given the history of both characters I'd say that makes perfect sense. 

Edited March 2, 2020 by Etrurian emperor

[Crysta]

idk her dialogue with him in the mock battle (I think?) has her saying they can finally settle the debate on who is stronger, which implies they may have sparred earlier and the subject wasn't settled before. Pretty sure she's at least been instructed in combat.

[omegaxis1]

5 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I don't think the problem really is that it requires mental gymnastics to side with the agarthans because it's made very clear in Hubert's paralogue that it's an enemy of my enemy situation and that Hubert is the one who actually insisted on asking for their not Edelgard. If anything she'd rather not work with them. The problem with her backstory is that it's never really within the narrative at least to any meaningful capacity. It sort of explains why she is the way she is and it explains why she views this current system s because if the current system wasn't in place then the agarthans would not be able to get away with what they did at least by her logic. The flaws in the system is what allowed the agarthans to do what they did at least from my understanding. The main problem is that aside from her supports, this torture and the trauma that resulted from it is never really brought up again in the story nor is it really addressed making it feel extremely disconnected from everything else. Her backstory explains the shit we need to know to understand her character it's not relevant to anything else and that's really the main issue I have with it. It's only brought up like once in a support and that's it. I'd be fine with it if it was a side character like Lysithea but we're talking about the main character here. I'd expect this backstory to be brought up again in a meaningful way but it's not.

Honestly, that's the issue. It's how the details of the Insurrection of the Seven is behind supports and doesn't really get much of an explanation. It's honestly baffling that no one in the Empire ever brought up the fact that several Imperial children just died. Edelgard stated that she had several older siblings. They died, but why didn't Ferdie or the others mention this? 

And why doesn't anyone actually talk about the Insurrection? 

Compare this to Dimtiri, where the Tragedy of Duscur and Dimtiri's trauma is constantly brought up. It's in your face and never lets you forget it. But Edelgard? No, you gotta look for yourself and actually try to remember it yourself. 

4 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Well, Arundel does seem to take quite a bit of amusement from the fact that Dimitri and Edelgard are trying to kill each other, that does suggest he is behind it. 

What does the crest of flames actually do in the lore? I do imagine most crests are stronger in universe than they are in the game as the effect of most including the crest of flames is quite minor, not exactly the sort of thing, that it is worth sacrificing most of your lifespan to get. I am assuming that the crest of flames grant regeneration given its in game effect

Crests in general boosts the abilities of user. For Dimitri, it's very much expressed by how he's physically super strong. He breaks weapons accidentally when he was a kid. He lifted a wagon with one arm. They really highlight that Dimitri has superstrength. Edelgard tends to hold back and hide her true power.

1 minute ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think its the other way around actually and that Dimitri is stronger than Edelgard. In the Holy Tomb she's very clearly outmatched and even seems a little nervous about Dimitri easily slaughtering her guards. 

Edelgard's crest might be stronger but that is not the only thing to consider. Having a powerful weapon is handy but your opponent can compensate by being more skilled or more powerful. Aside from seemingly outmatching her in the tombs Dimitri is bigger by a very large margin and he has a much richer combat history all their lives. Fighting is a very core trait of Dimitri. Smollmitri already swung swords around with enough force to break them and Dimitri already had war experience before coming to the academy. Lastly Dimitri's tenure as a crazy hobo was half a decade filled with endless fighting and bloodshed. 

In contrast Edelgard never struck me as that much as a fighter. Unlike Dimitri its never really said she trained much as a child, she has no combat experience before coming to the monastery and its probably for a reason that the flame emperor generally lets the Deathknight do the fighting. That's not to say Edelgard isn't powerful. Even as a student she apparently could slay multiple demonic beasts as her own and with her two crests she's very special. I just don't think she's as naturally gifted as a fighter as Dimitri nor as skillfully trained or experienced. The only time we see them fight from a pure lore perspective Edelgard is on the losing side of things and given the history of both characters I'd say that makes perfect sense. 

Not quite. Keep in mind that Byleth and Dimitri both defeated Edelgard in the Holy Tomb. She was injured so she wasn't in the same state of power to fight. But the Crest of Flames is regarded as the most powerful Crest that ordinary devices used to analyze Crests cannot even catch the full Crest, but rather only see a part of it. Hence why Byleth's Crest is a mystery.

As I said above just now, Edelgard HIDES her true strength. Dimitri doesn't. 

She doesn't like to show off her power since she prefers to wait things out. 

But the Agarthans literally didn't want to take on Rhea until they had Edelgard with the Crest of Flames. The power of the Crest of Flames is on another level. If Dimitri was actually stronger, they'd have used Dimtiri instead.

[MrPerson0]

5 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Jeritza would basically choose which house to train as well. 

Yes, we know that this is how it would work, but Edelgard and Jeritza do not. Jeritza was simply a training instructor, not a full fledged professor, so there's nothing to show that he would know how the process works.

5 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

And still unlikely for Edelgard to be suspected. 

Like, how "secret" is this? They didn't even talk about their training exercise as being even a big secret. So literally anyone could get that info. 

Not really, since some people would question Edelgard running away instead of helping her two fellow lords and allowing them to get killed.

5 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

In regards that simply having a replacement just resets chosen houses in accordance for the new professor. So that basically pushes the case that Jeritza would choose Black Eagles.

As mentioned above, Edelgard now Jeritza wouldn't know how the process for choosing houses works.

5 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yes, but this is against one ending that DOES make it clear. Out of all the endings, there is one ending that makes it abundantly clear. So now, Jeritza has that.

But Hapi and the others don't.

By that logic for Jeritza, the fact that Hapi has a solo ending where she can solo TWSitD makes it obvious that they are a pushover due to her, which means that they are

5 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Even if you defeat the Agarthans, it doesn't use the terms "true peace" in them, which is a pretty good indication of how the Agarthans aren't actually gone. 

That's a pretty big assumption to make, seeing that, from what I recall, no Fire Emblem game uses that term, which means the villains could make a return, though peace has been achieved.

5 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

As I said above just now, Edelgard HIDES her true strength. Dimitri doesn't. 

It's still a pretty big assumption to make that she is stronger than Dimitri. Dimitri, we have footage of him being ridiculously strong (along with other statements), whereas for Edelgard, the most we have is her taking out demonic beasts on her own.

[Crysta]

Anyone think that maybe not all of the Slitherers show up for the battle? Because even when you kick their asses in game, there's evidence suggesting there's other cells remaining because they pop up again?

Does solo Hapi have a means to find them, that she didn't choose to use before they surfaced for some reason?

[omegaxis1]

15 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Yes, we know that this is how it would work, but Edelgard and Jeritza do not. Jeritza was simply a training instructor, not a full fledged professor, so there's nothing to show that he would know how the process works.

Really? He could just go in and say that he'll train the Black Eagle house. Saying that Jeritza and Edelgard have no way of knowing doesn't mean much. Even IF we go about how Jeritza would be another house's leader, so? Him being a professor STILL gets him the access to records that students can't get, but a professor can. He's still her subordinate, so he can still pass information onto her.

I mean, honestly, even if we go by what you're saying, it still doesn't actually detract her.

15 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Not really, since some people would question Edelgard running away instead of helping her two fellow lords and allowing them to get killed.

What "running away" are you talking about? The ones that "ran" are Claude and Dimitri. Edelgard would be staying put, you know, under the protection of the Knights of Seiros. Which is a logical thing to do. If anything, she was the practical one, and the other two were idiots. 

15 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

As mentioned above, Edelgard now Jeritza wouldn't know how the process for choosing houses works.

And as I have now mentioned, either scenario wouldn't actually detract anything.

15 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

By that logic for Jeritza, the fact that Hapi has a solo ending where she can solo TWSitD makes it obvious that they are a pushover due to her, which means that they are

No, it doesn't. There's a difference between beating them and wiping them out for good. You can beat them, but if they remain, they'll come back. 

17 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

That's a pretty big assumption to make, seeing that, from what I recall, no Fire Emblem game uses that term, which means the villains could make a return, though peace has been achieved.

Yeah, that's why CF has multiple endings actually USING these words. Because Edelgard completely wipes the Agarthans out, because they were the ones that would cause the biggest disasters. The other routes lack the use of "true peace" because the Agarthans aren't wiped out. They live on. The reason only Edelgard succeeds in wiping them out is because not only does she have the resolve and intent to chase them till every last one of them are dead, especially with Hubert, but Edelgard having worked with them gave her all the chances to dig up information on them and learn more about how deep their influence goes than others would. 

It's why Hubert discovered the Shambhala, something that Seteth and Rhea never could. 

19 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

It's still a pretty big assumption to make that she is stronger than Dimitri. Dimitri, we have footage of him being ridiculously strong (along with other statements), whereas for Edelgard, the most we have is her taking out demonic beasts on her own.

It's easily understood simply by how Silver Snow had Gronder turn out. Edelgard was injured. But Dimitri died. Without Byleth, the results of the battle make it clear. 

And once again, the Crest of Flames is by far the most powerful Crest. Dimitri's Crest comes from the his minor Crest of Blaiddyd, but Edelgard bears the Crest of Flames, the Crest of the goddess Sothis herself. Edelgard, as a result, has power comparable to that of Nemesis and BYleth. It's why Byleth is the tipping scale that can defeat Edelgard. Not only does he had the Crest of Flames as well, but he bears the complete power of Sothis herself, that neither Nemesis nor Edelgard can have. 

[MrPerson0]

35 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I mean, honestly, even if we go by what you're saying, it still doesn't actually detract her.

The thing is, there is still nothing that can really point to her wanting to insert Jeritza as a professor because you are making assumptions as to why she would, especially since he is already a part of the faculty there (along with Solon).

35 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Which is a logical thing to do. If anything, she was the practical one, and the other two were idiots. 

Yes, I meant her staying put would be the issue, as people would judge her for not helping them out.

35 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

There's a difference between beating them and wiping them out for good.

My point was Hapi was able to solo them on her own, which makes it obvious that the "resurgence" is a joke, which makes it clear that true/lasting peace would be obtained with this method.

35 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The other routes lack the use of "true peace" because the Agarthans aren't wiped out. They live on.

This is once again you really trying to look into semantics. It's like saying the Grimleal lived on in Awakening because "true peace" isn't mentioned in the endings (which was my original point). With all Fire Emblem games, a lasting peace is assumed unless a direct sequel comes about going against that. Even in the case of a direct sequel not happening, anything can happen down the road (Archanean games into Awakening, for example), but we only look into the near future.

35 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Edelgard was injured. But Dimitri died.

Was he explicitly mentioned to have been killed by Edelgard, or could it have possibly been what happened in VW (killed by her soldiers as he fell unconscious).

35 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Dimitri's Crest comes from the his minor Crest of Blaiddyd, but Edelgard bears the Crest of Flames, the Crest of the goddess Sothis herself. Edelgard, as a result, has power comparable to that of Nemesis and BYleth.

Edelgard isn't comparable to Nemesis and Byleth because they had a Crest Stone to use the Sword of the Creator, while Edelgard does not. That means that we still have no clue what Edelgard's strength is other than assumptions.

43 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Does solo Hapi have a means to find them, that she didn't choose to use before they surfaced for some reason?

It's pretty clear that it's a generic ending that IS made to make it so TWSitD are taken care of in all routes, because many people were saying that they weren't taken care of in BL It's unknown/doubtful that there are other cells after Hapi takes care of them.

Edited March 2, 2020 by MrPerson0

[Crysta]

17 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

It's pretty clear that it's a generic ending that IS made to make it so TWSitD are taken care of in all routes, because many people were saying that they weren't taken care of in BL It's unknown/doubtful that there are other cells after Hapi takes care of them.

It takes Claude x Byleth two armies to defeat the remnants who pop up to join with the shambles of the Empire resistance (so lol at them being pushovers). It's entirely contingent on how many choose to show up to fight, except with Edelgard and Hubert who have greater means to track them in the shadows.

I don't think it's clear at all in any of the generic endings lol

[omegaxis1]

18 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

The thing is, there is still nothing that can really point to her wanting to insert Jeritza as a professor because you are making assumptions as to why she would, especially since he is already a part of the faculty there (along with Solon).

Repeat that. Solon. The Agarthan. 

You expect Edelgard to trust Solon?

18 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Yes, I meant her staying put would be the issue, as people would judge her for not helping them out.

... Why?

How is that Edelgard's responsibility? Is she responsible for Dimitri and Claude? 

Nope. The responsibility would lie in the teacher. 

Edelgard's hands were clean. Because there's absolutely no way that Edelgard can be held responsible for this when she's a student and the professor is the teacher. What happens to Dimitri or Claude would be pinned on the teacher. Simple as that. 

19 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

My point was Hapi was able to solo them on her own, which makes it obvious that the "resurgence" is a joke, which makes it clear that true/lasting peace would be obtained with this method.

... No. Not at all. 

Look at how the Agarthans have been throughout history.

1) Originally destroyed 4 entire lands to try and defeat Sothis.

2) Genocide of the Nabateans and creation of Relics.

3) Destruction of Aillel.

4) Loog rebellion.

5) Possibly the assassination of the ruler that caused the Crescent Moon War.

6) Insurrection of the Seven.

7) Tragedy of Duscur.

😎 Edelgard's war.

Like, their actions affects a LOT of things on a great scale. Hell, still doens't refute Claude/Byleth's ending where the Agarthans nearly take Derdriu until Claude arrives, and all the Agarthans had was the help of some Imperial army remnants. If they are around, they will cause a lot of suffering. Just cause Hapi beat them herself, if she did, doesn't mean much if they survive to cause ruination another day. Hapi isn't immortal after all.

22 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

This is once again you really trying to look into semantics. It's like saying the Grimleal lived on in Awakening because "true peace" isn't mentioned in the endings (which was my original point). With all Fire Emblem games, a lasting peace is assumed unless a direct sequel comes about going against that. Even in the case of a direct sequel not happening, anything can happen down the road (Archanean games into Awakening, for example), but we only look into the near future.

Using other games logic doesn't apply here. Because here, the Agarthans have taken active roles in causing problems. So long as they are around, they will always cause widespread chaos. Hence why CF endings use the words "true peace" specifically because they know the only way to ensure that is to wipe every last Agarthan.

Trying to apply other games cults here is a fallacy.

24 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Was he explicitly mentioned to have been killed by Edelgard, or could it have possibly been what happened in VW (killed by her soldiers as he fell unconscious).

You know how even in VW, Felix isn't sure how Dimitri died? He mentions decapitation, despite how Hilda witnessed it. It's cause in the end, VW is just a copy and paste of SS, with SS being just known as a bloody conflict and Dimitri having died in it.

26 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Edelgard isn't comparable to Nemesis and Byleth because they had a Crest Stone to use the Sword of the Creator, while Edelgard does not. That means that we still have no clue what Edelgard's strength is other than assumptions.

That's the power of the Relic, but the Crests give powers even without the Relic. But there's already many instances where it's proven that Edelgard is stronger. Byleth is the literal tipping point of the war, where he is the reason whether Edelgard loses or not. 

Not to mention that if Dimitri was really stronger, the Agarthans would have used him instead of Edelgard. But they specifically made Edelgard bear the Crest of Flames before they would move forward with opposing Rhea. It's abundantly clear that Edelgard was always stronger by default thanks to the Crest of Flames. The only one stronger than her is Byleth, the incarnation of Sothis herself.

28 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

It's pretty clear that it's a generic ending that IS made to make it so TWSitD are taken care of in all routes, because many people were saying that they weren't taken care of in BL It's unknown/doubtful that there are other cells after Hapi takes care of them.

Really? So Hapi can track down the Shambhala in CF? Interesting. Funny how no one else could until Hubert tracked it down. So no, BL, even Hapi doesn't make the Shambhala be discovered.

[Crysta]

5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Not to mention that if Dimitri was really stronger, the Agarthans would have used him instead of Edelgard. But they specifically made Edelgard bear the Crest of Flames before they would move forward with opposing Rhea. It's abundantly clear that Edelgard was always stronger by default thanks to the Crest of Flames. The only one stronger than her is Byleth, the incarnation of Sothis herself.

Dimitri is easier to manipulate but I wouldn't consider him easy to control and it'd be pretty clear to them. Their willingness to work with Edelgard and tolerate her unsubtle threats stems from their overconfidence that they could reign her in due to her not completely lacking impulse control. I'm not sure they'd see much use for Dimitri beyond being a battering ram even if he did have two crests like Edelgard, or had comparable/greater strength.

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Dimitri is easier to manipulate but I wouldn't consider him easy to control and it'd be pretty clear to them. Their willingness to work with Edelgard and tolerate her unsubtle threats stems from their overconfidence that they could reign her in due to her not completely lacking impulse control. I'm not sure they'd see much use for Dimitri beyond being a battering ram even if he did have two crests like Edelgard, or had comparable/greater strength.

It'd be easier than you'd think, given how Dimitri is a battering ram, they just steer him to Rhea. Pin the blame of the Tragedy on her, and boom. Thing is, the Western Church actually thought that Rhea was behind the Tragedy of Duscur.

[Crysta]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

It'd be easier than you'd think, given how Dimitri is a battering ram, they just steer him to Rhea. Pin the blame of the Tragedy on her, and boom. Thing is, the Western Church actually thought that Rhea was behind the Tragedy of Duscur.

That's really just a strategic shove and letting the cards fall where they naturally may. Since he has a penchant for uselessly getting himself killed in his rages, he still is not a very good tool in any long term capacity.

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Crysta said:

That's really just a strategic shove and letting the cards fall where they naturally may. Since he has a penchant for uselessly getting himself killed in his rages, he still is not a very good tool in any long term capacity.

That depends. All it takes it leading Dimitri on until the time was right. 

[Crysta]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

That depends. All it takes it leading Dimitri on until the time was right. 

It's not a very smart idea to depend on Boar Dimitri.

[MrPerson0]

7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

You expect Edelgard to trust Solon?

Seeing that she is working with them, she has to trust them for the time being. How else would she have done everything she did in the pre-timeskip era?

7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

What happens to Dimitri or Claude would be pinned on the teacher. Simple as that. 

Seeing that they had to stick around

9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

If they are around, they will cause a lot of suffering. Just cause Hapi beat them herself, if she did, doesn't mean much if they survive to cause ruination another day. Hapi isn't immortal after all.

Really? So Hapi can track down the Shambhala in CF? Interesting. Funny how no one else could until Hubert tracked it down. So no, BL, even Hapi doesn't make the Shambhala be discovered.

Sure, but there's a reason they introduced Hapi with her endings, and that is to close the book with TWSitD, also, seeing that you want to point to one ending being indicative of a whole, Hapi's ending with Dimitri explicitly states that they "relentlessly pursue TWSitD", so it's very possible that they did, indeed, find their base, and this would extend to Hapi's other endings

13 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Hence why CF endings use the words "true peace" specifically because they know the only way to ensure that is to wipe every last Agarthan.

Even though this was never explicitly stated? Even in Edelgard x Byleth's ending, they say "lasting peace" after they mention TWSitD, which is the same term used in previous titles.

15 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

It's cause in the end, VW is just a copy and paste of SS, with SS being just known as a bloody conflict and Dimitri having died in it.

That's exactly what I am saying. If he died the same way as in VW, then you really can't use that as saying "she's stronger" when it was her soldiers who managed to kill an unconscious Dimitri.

17 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Not to mention that if Dimitri was really stronger, the Agarthans would have used him instead of Edelgard.

I'm pretty sure it was easier for them to experiment on Edelgard due to how the Empire was separated from the Church at the time (to the point where the Church didn't question what happened to Edelgard's siblings), as opposed to the Kingdom still being in close contact with it. As for the Crest of Flames, Edelgard still never showed its use in any capacity in a one on one battle with Dimitri, which is the issue with you making it out to seem she is stronger than him.

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Seeing that she is working with them, she has to trust them for the time being. How else would she have done everything she did in the pre-timeskip era?

Working with someone doesn't equate to "trust" at all. Especially with people you intend to kill later on. 

Edelgard and the Agarthans don't share an equal relationship.

Jeritza getting information is far more beneficial to her than the Agarthans.

4 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Seeing that they had to stick around

The teacher ran off. But the thing is, again, my point is that your belief that Edelgard would be suspected is a silly fallacy given that she bears no responsibility for their actions.

 

8 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Sure, but there's a reason they introduced Hapi with her endings, and that is to close the book with TWSitD, also, seeing that you want to point to one ending being indicative of a whole, Hapi's ending with Dimitri explicitly states that they "relentlessly pursue TWSitD", so it's very possible that they did, indeed, find their base, and this would extend to Hapi's other endings

Hapi literally exists just to make it clear that the Agarthans DO return, that you DON'T actually take care of them, and to actually address the massive plothole of Blue Lions. 

But she isn't there to make it clear that the Agarthans have been wiped out. At all. 

Also, that Dimtiri ending ALSO ends with finding a spell to delete her powers. Doesn't state that they destroyed the Shambhala or track it. 

Overall, all you're doing is believing in a fallacy. We know for a fact that the only reason the Agarthans are found is cause of Hubert tracking the missiles. No missiles, no base tracking. So all you're doing is more guesswork and fallacies with no actual evidence to back it up. 

But you know what IS made clear?

Jeritza's ending with Byleth stating the the Agarthans are gone for good. What you said is a possibility, not a guarantee. What Jeritza says is a guarantee, not a possibility. The difference is as clear as heaven and earth.

13 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Even though this was never explicitly stated? Even in Edelgard x Byleth's ending, they say "lasting peace" after they mention TWSitD, which is the same term used in previous titles.

Oh please tell me where in the other routes that it's stated that the Agarthans have been wiped out. Do you have that? No. You don't. 

14 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

That's exactly what I am saying. If he died the same way as in VW, then you really can't use that as saying "she's stronger" when it was her soldiers who managed to kill an unconscious Dimitri.

Uh, yeah, problem with that. VW is the copy of SS, not SS is a copy of VW. Meaning what happens in VW isn't what happens in SS. What happens in SS happens in VW. VW adds the case that Dimitri fell unconscious and got killed. It's not the same in SS. WHy? Because of Felix's dialogue, where he talks of Dimitri being decapitated, which contradicts what Hilda says.

16 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

I'm pretty sure it was easier for them to experiment on Edelgard due to how the Empire was separated from the Church at the time (to the point where the Church didn't question what happened to Edelgard's siblings), as opposed to the Kingdom still being in close contact with it. As for the Crest of Flames, Edelgard still never showed its use in any capacity in a one on one battle with Dimitri, which is the issue with you making it out to seem she is stronger than him.

Yeah once again, Edelgard doesn't show off her power. She hides it. Dimitri DOES show off his strength. 

And again, if the Agarthans waited for so long until they had the Crest of Flames on Edelgard, then it's abundantly clear that they the Crest of Blaiddyd is not something necessary for Rhea. As stated, the Crest of Flames is to give Edelgard the power to oppose even the gods. 

Cause once again, the Crest of Flames is Sothis's Crest, the goddess. 

If all they needed was Blaiddyd, then they didn't need to use Dimitri They could have easily used Loog years ago. Pan literally was an Agarthan agent, but all they used Loog for was his rebellion. 

In the end, the Crest of Blaiddyd is inferior against Rhea's might. But Edelgard bearing the Crest of Flames? Different story. Edelgard was meant to be Nemesis 2.0.

[MrPerson0]

20 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Jeritza getting information is far more beneficial to her than the Agarthans.

Sure, but still, thinking the bandit plan was all so she could get Jeritza a teaching position (though he already has a one there) seems to be jumping into way too many things whereas the easier idea is she meant to get them killed, and was hoping to do that by following them (seeing that she is stronger than them as you say), especially with her view that she will spill as much blood as possible to get what she wants.

22 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The teacher ran off. But the thing is, again, my point is that your belief that Edelgard would be suspected is a silly fallacy given that she bears no responsibility for their actions.

And the teacher was judged for their actions (by not helping the students). Edelgard would be judged by not helping them and if she didn't tell the Knights where they ran off to.

24 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Doesn't state that they destroyed the Shambhala or track it. 

None of the endings outright state that Shambhala is tracked down. This is assumed, and even was in the CF endings until it was shown with Jeritza's ending picture. There's only so much of Fodlan that they could cover, especially since they know that Jeritza is linked to them (Hrym is where the base is), they are bound to find their base and it's clear the none of the remaining members could even do things such as use the nukes (likely linked to Thales).

29 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

What Jeritza says is a guarantee, not a possibility. The difference is as clear as heaven and earth.

Oh please tell me where in the other routes that it's stated that the Agarthans have been wiped out. Do you have that? No. You don't. 

No, it isn't, because you have to specifically pair off Byleth with Jeritza for the "forever vanquished" part. You can't transplant that to his solo ending, or his other pairings (such as Mercedes where they are "finally defeated", which is the same as Hapi's endings).

This is exactly my point. None of the endings point out that all Agarthans have been wiped out other than Jeritza x Byleth, but that pairing is only a possibility because the same term isn't used for his other endings. If you wish to move that to his other endings, you have to do this for all endings that mention TWSitD getting taken out.

38 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Because of Felix's dialogue, where he talks of Dimitri being decapitated, which contradicts what Hilda says.

So he says this only in SS, and not in VW? Then I guess that would make her outright stronger than him, and the Crest of Flame is supposed to be the Fire Emblem as well.

[CatManThree]

5 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

Yes, we know that this is how it would work, but Edelgard and Jeritza do not. Jeritza was simply a training instructor, not a full fledged professor, so there's nothing to show that he would know how the process works.

Pretty sure I recall him having been referred to as "professor Jeritza at one point or another by a student or students during the conversations you can have with them while exploring the monastery.

8 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Its why I have a hard time believing what she says. I know the Agarthans are cartoonishly evil, but with how 3H is, everyone has some story behind them. Abyss just reveals that they were not actually thinking themselves as gods. 

Whether or not they did consider themselves that is a little up for debate and speculation if we are to not trust Rhea on the matter. All that we know about the Agarthans outside of what Rhea tells us or their involvement with conspiracy in Fodlan is that they despise the Nabateans, despise Sothis seemingly referring to her as the "fell star", have highly advanced technology which combines magic and technology, view all non-Agarthans as mindless, feral, creatures (or "beasts") that are far bellow them in. We also receive some interesting but cryptic and vague information from the Shadow Library book "Romance of the World's Perdition", where the book neither confirms nor denies the concept of the Agarthans becoming so full of it they thought they were gods. The only thing the book kind of confirms is that the Fodlan seams to have been originally called "Thinis" (the name of the real world city large importance from ancient egypt that has never been uncovered archaeologically but is known to exist through prominent reference to it in other archaeological finds) by the Agarthans at some point. However due to how its worded, this may not even be the case depending on how you look at it.

 

Anyway, my point is that there isn't a significant amount of evidence or any real damning evidence to support it either way. Outside of what Rhea tells us, we only have extremely vague and unclear information that could be interpreted either way. 

 

[Jotari]

11 hours ago, Ottservia said:

I don't think the problem really is that it requires mental gymnastics to side with the agarthans because it's made very clear in Hubert's paralogue that it's an enemy of my enemy situation and that Hubert is the one who actually insisted on asking for their aid not Edelgard. If anything she'd rather not work with them. The problem with her backstory is that it's never really relevant within the narrative at least to any meaningful capacity. It sort of explains why she is the way she is and it explains why she views this current system s because if the current system wasn't in place then the agarthans would not be able to get away with what they did at least by her logic. The flaws in the system is what allowed the agarthans to do what they did at least from my understanding. The main problem is that aside from her supports, this torture and the trauma that resulted from it is never really brought up again in the story nor is it really addressed making it feel extremely disconnected from everything else. Her backstory explains the shit we need to know to understand her character but it's not relevant to anything else that happens and that's really the main issue I have with it. It's only brought up like once in a support and that's it. I'd be fine with it if it was a side character like Lysithea but we're talking about the main character here. I'd expect this backstory to be brought up again in a meaningful way but it's not. Like if they want me to truly believe that this backstory is why she thinks she does, it should be brought up more.

Suspension of disbelief will be different for everyone, but I, and I'm sure many, have to do some mental gymnastics to justify blaming someone else for your torture and allying with the people who actually tortured you to carry that out. Aside from that I agree with what you're saying. Edelgard's torture backstory manages to obviously be very important to her and inform her actions...while simultaneously being somewhat superfluous. I could more easily buy Edelgard's entire actions without the torture, if her view of Rhea and the crest system was simply her own way of looking at the world (possibly with some of being raised by Ionus). I'm quite sure the real reason for the backstory is a meta one to derive sympathy for Edelgard from the player.

[omegaxis1]

6 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

Sure, but still, thinking the bandit plan was all so she could get Jeritza a teaching position (though he already has a one there) seems to be jumping into way too many things whereas the easier idea is she meant to get them killed, and was hoping to do that by following them (seeing that she is stronger than them as you say), especially with her view that she will spill as much blood as possible to get what she wants.

Jeritza was a sword instructor. That isn't the same as being an actual professor, hence why Caspar noted that Jeritza is a natural replacement for the position when the last professor ditched his job. 

Also, NOTHING in Edelgard's actions speaks that she was hoping that Dimitri or Claude get killed. Actions speaks louder than words, and everything about Edelgard's actions in the prologue indicate that she wasn't actually trying to get them killed.

6 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

And the teacher was judged for their actions (by not helping the students). Edelgard would be judged by not helping them and if she didn't tell the Knights where they ran off to.

... What? Are you serious here? First off, you're ASSUMING that Edelgard wouldn't tell, but that means absolutely nothing cause one thing is that Edelgard would have to remain behind. But again, she followed them as well. 

You're making more leaps in logic here that you are trying to accuse me of.

Not to mention the fact that the teacher wasn't even judged, but rather ran away.

6 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

None of the endings outright state that Shambhala is tracked down. This is assumed, and even was in the CF endings until it was shown with Jeritza's ending picture. There's only so much of Fodlan that they could cover, especially since they know that Jeritza is linked to them (Hrym is where the base is), they are bound to find their base and it's clear the none of the remaining members could even do things such as use the nukes (likely linked to Thales).

Actually, the Shambhala is located close to House Goneril territory, which is what Hilda points out. And even Balthus's CF ending mentions the "Battle of Shambhala" too. Either way, there's been efforts from Seteth and Rhea to uncover the group behind Nemesis, and found nothing. Saying that there's "only so much" to cover is pointless when they are GOOD at hiding. Knowing Jeritza is connected means nothing. So no, there's no actual way of finding their base without the nukes being launched. 

We already could surmise that they'd track the Shambhala. If Hubert tracked the nukes off screen in SS/VW, why WOULDN'T he track it down in CF? 

7 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

No, it isn't, because you have to specifically pair off Byleth with Jeritza for the "forever vanquished" part. You can't transplant that to his solo ending, or his other pairings (such as Mercedes where they are "finally defeated", which is the same as Hapi's endings).

This is exactly my point. None of the endings point out that all Agarthans have been wiped out other than Jeritza x Byleth, but that pairing is only a possibility because the same term isn't used for his other endings. If you wish to move that to his other endings, you have to do this for all endings that mention TWSitD getting taken out.

Okay, let me get this straight. So because Jeritza and Byleth getting paired gives us the end, the other endings are as a result impossible or irrelevant? 

So... does this mean that because Claude/Byleth pairing back then was the only pairing that proved the Agarthans survived, if you don't have it, does that mean you assume they didn't survive? 

Really? That's where you're going with that line of logic? 

You've already dug your grave with that. 

Jeritza/Byleth is the pairing that simply make it clear what defeating them in CF entails. 

But this is something that is translated into all the other endings as a default. Just as Claude/Byleth's ending in VW is proof that the Agarthans survived, meaning that they'd obviously come back. 

Sorry, but your line of reasoning does not apply here.

7 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

So he says this only in SS, and not in VW? Then I guess that would make her outright stronger than him, and the Crest of Flame is supposed to be the Fire Emblem as well.

That's the entire point of it. The only reason Edelgard ever loses is cause Byleth is in the scales against her.