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omegaxis1

The True Tragedy of Three Houses

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5 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Additionally, remove the Slitherers and you can no longer say Edelgard is being strong armed or forced to do any of the actions she does in the story. Which I honestly would like better.

The idea of Edelgard being forced or pressured by the Slitherers never really convinced me. She and Thales are very open about their aims to backstab each other so its safe to say Edelgard is largely independent of them. Never did we see Edelgard get forced by them into doing things she otherwise would not have done. Even the alliance with them isn't forced on Edelgard. Its a choice and Hubert's words implies that his arguments rather than any threats from Thales made Edelgard agree to the alliance. 

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Just now, Etrurian emperor said:

The idea of Edelgard being forced or pressured by the Slitherers never really convinced me. She and Thales are very open about their aims to backstab each other so its safe to say Edelgard is largely independent of them. Never did we see Edelgard get forced by them into doing things she otherwise would not have done. Even the alliance with them isn't forced on Edelgard. Its a choice and Hubert's words implies that his arguments rather than any threats from Thales made Edelgard agree to the alliance. 

Yeah I'm in the same camp, but it's a thing people routinely argue when others ding her for affiliating with the Slitherers. That possibility would be entirely gone, even though it may not factor at all in our assessment of her already.

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8 minutes ago, Crysta said:

If you remove the Agarthans from the story, then...

Lonato and the Western Church attacked on their own.

Flayn is never kidnapped. 

Remire is never attacked.

Jeralt is never killed.

No Crest Beasts are made. 

So... some of the biggest factors people like to bring up for not wanting to side with Edelgard are basically gone.

Additionally, remove the Slitherers and you can no longer say Edelgard is being strong armed or forced to do any of the actions she does in the story. Which I honestly would like better.

If you're proposing lift them out of the story with no other changes, it won't work. Edelgard turns against the Crest system because she sees what those who desire their power will do to get it, namely, Slither's Crest experiments. Without that, she has no motivation to do anything she does, and since she drives the entire plot, there would be no plot.

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11 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Additionally, remove the Slitherers and you can no longer say Edelgard is being strong armed or forced to do any of the actions she does in the story. Which I honestly would like better.

I mean, she never even says that she's being forced to. Obviously the Agarthans want her to, but Edelgard makes it clear that what she does is by her own choice that she accepts, because she wants this war to happen for the sake of the revolution she holds for her ideals. 

Simply put, they have a shared interest in taking down the Church/Rhea. 

1 minute ago, Sid Starkiller said:

If you're proposing lift them out of the story with no other changes, it won't work. Edelgard turns against the Crest system because she sees what those who desire their power will do to get it, namely, Slither's Crest experiments. Without that, she has no motivation to do anything she does, and since she drives the entire plot, there would be no plot.

Adding onto this, there'd be no Tragedy of Duscur or successful Insurrection of the Seven. 

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15 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Let's consider something here, really.

If you remove the Agarthans from the story, then...

  • Lonato and the Western Church attacked on their own.
  • Flayn is never kidnapped. 
  • Remire is never attacked.
  • Jeralt is never killed.
  • No Crest Beasts are made. 

So... some of the biggest factors people like to bring up for not wanting to side with Edelgard are basically gone.

 

To what degree are we removing them from the story. Their presence entirely, or their actions in the main story's events? I think that's a pretty important thing to establish before moving onto further hypotheticals.

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Just now, Sid Starkiller said:

If you're proposing lift them out of the story with no other changes, it won't work. Edelgard turns against the Crest system because she sees what those who desire their power will do to get it, namely, Slither's Crest experiments. Without that, she has no motivation to do anything she does, and since she drives the entire plot, there would be no plot.

The experiments make it far more personal and easier to connect with, but they're not necessary for someone to have beef with how the Church conducts itself. Another strong thread in Edelgard's narrative is her belief that humanity doesn't need Gods, and her removing Rhea is also giving humans back control of their destiny.

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52 minutes ago, NobodiePichu said:

 

id say the problem there is that even with the slitherers around edelgards kind of a dick, and instead of leaning into her as a sympathetic villain the likes of zephiel or her inspiration arvis the game bends over backwards to maker her more cutesy marketable. it would be one thing if it was framed as a tragic battle between two deeply flawed individuals with trust issues, but instead its framed as this weird yas queen thing that feels incredibly disingenuous especially when taken in conjunction with the other routes.

I guess we just have to agree to disagree, I don't see it that way at all. Battle between two deeply flawed individual is pretty much exactly what I consider this to be.

Edelgard might be cute, but that is not the main reason I like her. If you pay attention she also some really good policies. Her policy of open discourse with Almyra being one of them. Then we have things like free education and the removal of the division between noble and commoner. The question is just if these reforms are worth the war. But Edelgard is the most progressive leader in the entire game so us that seek change naturally would gravitate towards her. 

42 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Let's consider something here, really.

If you remove the Agarthans from the story, then...

  • Lonato and the Western Church attacked on their own.
  • Flayn is never kidnapped. 
  • Remire is never attacked.
  • Jeralt is never killed.
  • No Crest Beasts are made. 

So... some of the biggest factors people like to bring up for not wanting to side with Edelgard are basically gone.

 

That was basicly what I was trying to say. Granted none of these actions did actually stop me from supporting Edelgard because I don't consider them her doing. Her blatant disgust for the actions of the slitherers does distance her from them, for me it is enough that she hated working with them. Hubert is the one responsible for that arrangement anyway, but I have a hard time arguing with his logic

But I don't think Lonato and the western church really need the involvement of the slitherers as their motived are strong enough on their own. Killing Lonato's son for a crime he didn't commit should be more than enough fot him to go against Rhea

Edited by Darkmoon6789
Spelling error and unfinished sentence

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2 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

That was basicly what I was trying to say. Granted none of these actions did actually stop me from supporting Edelgard because I don't consider them her doing. Her blatant disgust for the actions of the slitherers does distance her from them, for me it is enough that she hated working with them. Hubert is the one responsible for that arrangement anyway, but I have a hard time arguing with his logic

But I don't think Lonato and the western church really need the involvement of the slitherers as their motived are strong enough on their own. Killing Lonato's son for a crime he didn't commit should be more than enough fot him to go against Rhea

Yeah. But we have to realize that without the Agarthans, Chapters 6, 8, and 9 don't happen. But if you want the story to happen as it does without the Agarthans being involved, then we need to wonder who caused Flayn's kidnapping, Remire, and then Jeralt's death. 

Was it the Church? Or Edelgard? 

Would you be able to still make this morally grey if that was the case? I think it would simply cast more black to the morally grey characters.

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24 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

So... some of the biggest factors people like to bring up for not wanting to side with Edelgard are basically gone.

Eh, she still hired the bandits to try to get Dimitri and Claude killed, along with trying to kill her former teacher and students in the Holy Tomb on her own, which I'd say are still very big reasons to not join her.

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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Would you be able to still make this morally grey if that was the case? I think it would simply cast more black to the morally grey characters.

Yes. That is the purpose of the standard evil cult/beings in FE games: to make sure the good guys don't get too dark. Something else has to push all the evil buttons.

I tend to be fond of narratives that focus on human evil because it's something uncomfortable for people to confront, let alone play with... and if done right, feels more realistic.

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3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I mean, she never even says that she's being forced to. Obviously the Agarthans want her to, but Edelgard makes it clear that what she does is by her own choice that she accepts, because she wants this war to happen for the sake of the revolution she holds for her ideals. 

Simply put, they have a shared interest in taking down the Church/Rhea. 

Adding onto this, there'd be no Tragedy of Duscur or successful Insurrection of the Seven. 

These could both still happen, though.

Insurrection of the Seven occurs among the nobles, when Ionius IX attempts to concentrate power. All the nobles turn against him, favoring Duke Aegir, and the Emperor becomes a figurehead. There's no awful Crest torture anymore, though. Rather, Edelgard hates the Church because it supported the Insurrection, after Ionius pushed several anti-clerical measures.

As for the Tragedy of Duscur, this one could be done by making Lambert... kind of a dick. He's still nice to Dimitri, but he makes poor financial choices, and makes it up with taxes, especially levied against the people of Duscur. Some Kingdom nobles rile them up, and a group from Duscur kills the King. Dimitri spares Dedue's life, knowing that he was not responsible, but treats him cruelly as a servant.

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2 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Yes. That is the purpose of the standard evil cult/beings in FE games: to make sure the good guys don't get too dark. Something else has to push all the evil buttons.

I tend to be fond of narratives that focus on human evil because it's something uncomfortable for people to confront, let alone play with... and if done right, feels more realistic.

Agreed. When most people say to remove the Agarthans, they don't mean to remove the chapters that they drive, just to shift responsibility over onto a different main character so they don't have the whole "these people no one really knows anything about made me do it" excuses. Personally I feel it would make Edelgard and Rhea both all the more interesting for it.

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2 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Agreed. When most people say to remove the Agarthans, they don't mean to remove the chapters that they drive, just to shift responsibility over onto a different main character so they don't have the whole "these people no one really knows anything about made me do it" excuses. Personally I feel it would make Edelgard and Rhea both all the more interesting for it.

To be fair, the fanbase has trouble with nuance in regard to one Edelgard. I can't imagine what these threads would devolve into if we had several.

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2 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

These could both still happen, though.

Insurrection of the Seven occurs among the nobles, when Ionius IX attempts to concentrate power. All the nobles turn against him, favoring Duke Aegir, and the Emperor becomes a figurehead. There's no awful Crest torture anymore, though. Rather, Edelgard hates the Church because it supported the Insurrection, after Ionius pushed several anti-clerical measures.

As for the Tragedy of Duscur, this one could be done by making Lambert... kind of a dick. He's still nice to Dimitri, but he makes poor financial choices, and makes it up with taxes, especially levied against the people of Duscur. Some Kingdom nobles rile them up, and a group from Duscur kills the King. Dimitri spares Dedue's life, knowing that he was not responsible, but treats him cruelly as a servant.

Experimentation aside, yeah the Insurrection of the Seven could 100% happen just fine without TWSITD.

Tragedy could also happen in the form of a power struggle within the kingdom itself. House Kleiman was already notoriously against whatever King Lambert's reforms were. Could simply have them plot an assasination during the trip to Duscur to remove him from power, while making it look like it was done by people from Duscur. The events largely still play out the same, Dimitri barely survives, tries to stop the ensueing massacre but nobody believes him. House Kleiman takes over Duscur lands and bleeds it dry of it's resources. Dimitri still meets Dedue and their relationship acts out the same. All that'd be necessary is maybe make Kleiman into a bigger house so them being capable of something like this is more understandable.

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7 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Eh, she still hired the bandits to try to get Dimitri and Claude killed, along with trying to kill her former teacher and students in the Holy Tomb on her own, which I'd say are still very big reasons to not join her.

I mean, for one thing, said bandits never once learned about the Knights of Seiros, which is odd, since such information would be vital, given how they are comprised of the elites. And she never seems to be interested in anyone surviving, but only in the fact that Byleth was made professor. But even with that, it's something that no one really knows about either way.

And in regards to the last thing, maybe. She does attack, but she even tells her students in the BE route that she never intended to actually kill any of them, so it's pretty much a bluff. 

So in that case, take it like you will.

But if she's trying to oppose the Church, and did little harm to people, then there's not much moral grey on her. She'd be more on the purer side. Not completely, but still.

7 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

As for the Tragedy of Duscur, this one could be done by making Lambert... kind of a dick. He's still nice to Dimitri, but he makes poor financial choices, and makes it up with taxes, especially levied against the people of Duscur. Some Kingdom nobles rile them up, and a group from Duscur kills the King. Dimitri spares Dedue's life, knowing that he was not responsible, but treats him cruelly as a servant.

You know, it actually bothers me how little we understand of what these reforms he was trying to do. People just talk about it but we get nothing from it. 

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5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I mean, for one thing, said bandits never once learned about the Knights of Seiros, which is odd, since such information would be vital, given how they are comprised of the elites. And she never seems to be interested in anyone surviving, but only in the fact that Byleth was made professor. But even with that, it's something that no one really knows about either way.

And in regards to the last thing, maybe. She does attack, but she even tells her students in the BE route that she never intended to actually kill any of them, so it's pretty much a bluff. 

So in that case, take it like you will.

But if she's trying to oppose the Church, and did little harm to people, then there's not much moral grey on her. She'd be more on the purer side. Not completely, but still.

Which is why we can only say that Edelgard is either incompetent, or she was just really hoping that at least one of the leaders would luckily end up dead. Also, no one in the story managed to trace the bandit attack back to her anyway, and we do not know if the Church would act any differently if one of them ended up dead.

For the bluff, she only says that if you join her from what I recall. She is going to kill you and your students if you oppose her.

As for causing little harm, we really have no clue if she would try to do that, and an invasion is still an invasion.

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10 minutes ago, Crysta said:

To be fair, the fanbase has trouble with nuance in regard to one Edelgard. I can't imagine what these threads would devolve into if we had several.

Fanbases are more likely to accept actual moral ambiguity over the half assing that we usually get. Half of the problem whit Edelgard/Rhea/Dimitri stem from the fact that people have some ground to say "X did nothing wrong". If the game make unambigously clear that they did certain things wrong(things that are not route speciphic), such people won't have much ground to bullshit excuses.

Imo all three did a lot of wrong but i also think the game is trying way too hard to try to excuse, downplay or shift the blame of everything bad they do. 

Hell, instead of a golden route i want an evil route just so i don't have to side whit one of them to kill the others.

Edited by Flere210

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Full sociopath route where you build an army of the chapter one bandits. You replace Kostas.

If Nemesis can do it, so can you.

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1 minute ago, MrPerson0 said:

Which is why we can only say that Edelgard is either incompetent, or she was just really hoping that at least one of the leaders would luckily end up dead. Also, no one in the story managed to trace the bandit attack back to her anyway, and we do not know if the Church would act any differently if one of them ended up dead.

For the bluff, she only says that if you join her from what I recall. She is going to kill you and your students if you oppose her.

As for causing little harm, we really have no clue if she would try to do that, and an invasion is still an invasion.

The bluff is said regardless in BE if you talk to her.

She also brings Crest Beasts seemingly of her own volition, so I find that claim rather dubious personally.

 

 

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Never understood that assassination attempt, it is just straight up a bad plan if it was intended to be successful. Edelgard included herself on the hitlist and was almost killed as a result.

As for Lamberts political reforms, could they be of the same nature as Edelgard's? Maybe Thales killed him because his reform would undermine the neccesity of the war and therefore their abillity to rile people up against Rhea

Edited by Darkmoon6789

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2 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

The bluff is said regardless in BE if you talk to her.

She also brings Crest Beasts seemingly of her own volition, so I find that claim rather dubious personally.

Ah, so it's an in-battle quote. Definitely dubious since any of her soldiers would still be willing to kill them (along with the beasts as you mentioned).

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2 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Which is why we can only say that Edelgard is either incompetent, or she was just really hoping that at least one of the leaders would luckily end up dead. Also, no one in the story managed to trace the bandit attack back to her anyway, and we do not know if the Church would act any differently if one of them ended up dead.

For the bluff, she only says that if you join her from what I recall. She is going to kill you and your students if you oppose her.

As for causing little harm, we really have no clue if she would try to do that, and an invasion is still an invasion.

Not really. It's been indicated right after in the dialogue from NPCs that the new teacher ran off due to the incident, cause if the princess, prince, and sovereign duke would be in danger, the teacher would bear all responsibilities for it. Hence why the teacher ran off. The only reason Edelgard, Claude, and Dimitri actually got in trouble is cause Claude ran off like a jackass. Frankly, her following them would actually contradict her intention of killing them, given that if she wanted them dead, she could have stayed back at the camp, with the Knights. Dimitri and Claude would have gotten themselves in danger on their own. 

Nope. She states that despite what she said, she never had any intention of killing them. 

Of course an invasion is still an invasion. But going against a corrupt Church while very little morally black actions were done by Edelgard, there's just little to hate her on. The Agarthans just make things worse for her cause. But otherwise, Edelgard is a lot more justifiable than anything if none of the Agarthans evil was performed. 

3 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

She also brings Crest Beasts seemingly of her own volition, so I find that claim rather dubious personally.

I mean, they tame and control Crest Beasts, so... yeah. Even those Crest Beasts would not actually kill.

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10 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Not really. It's been indicated right after in the dialogue from NPCs that the new teacher ran off due to the incident, cause if the princess, prince, and sovereign duke would be in danger, the teacher would bear all responsibilities for it. Hence why the teacher ran off. The only reason Edelgard, Claude, and Dimitri actually got in trouble is cause Claude ran off like a jackass. Frankly, her following them would actually contradict her intention of killing them, given that if she wanted them dead, she could have stayed back at the camp, with the Knights. Dimitri and Claude would have gotten themselves in danger on their own. 

Nope. She states that despite what she said, she never had any intention of killing them. 

Of course an invasion is still an invasion. But going against a corrupt Church while very little morally black actions were done by Edelgard, there's just little to hate her on. The Agarthans just make things worse for her cause. But otherwise, Edelgard is a lot more justifiable than anything if none of the Agarthans evil was performed. 

I mean, they tame and control Crest Beasts, so... yeah. Even those Crest Beasts would not actually kill.

Honestly I think we should generally stop trying to argue about the intro-chapter's events. It's basically completely ignored past chapter 2 and both fan theories; it being a direct assassination attempt vs an attempt to install Jeritza have some pretty big holes in them. Probably best to go with the meta reason of it just existing as a nice segue into Divine Pulse+ Byleth meeting the lords, as well as to set up the Flame Emperor as someone pulling the strings.

 

Edited by Axel987

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9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Not really. It's been indicated right after in the dialogue from NPCs that the new teacher ran off due to the incident, cause if the princess, prince, and sovereign duke would be in danger, the teacher would bear all responsibilities for it. Hence why the teacher ran off. The only reason Edelgard, Claude, and Dimitri actually got in trouble is cause Claude ran off like a jackass. Frankly, her following them would actually contradict her intention of killing them, given that if she wanted them dead, she could have stayed back at the camp, with the Knights. Dimitri and Claude would have gotten themselves in danger on their own. 

Nope. She states that despite what she said, she never had any intention of killing them. 

Of course an invasion is still an invasion. But going against a corrupt Church while very little morally black actions were done by Edelgard, there's just little to hate her on. The Agarthans just make things worse for her cause. But otherwise, Edelgard is a lot more justifiable than anything if none of the Agarthans evil was performed. 

Assuming that it was all so the teach could run away is not really much to go off on, especially compared to what the Flame Emperor outright said (wanting the bandits to kill the leaders). Also, if she stayed back at camp instead of helping her fellow peers, it would look pretty bad on her.

As noted above, even though she says that, it's highly doubtful since her soldiers or beasts likely will end up killing them if they are in range. Telling people to get out of your way as you commit a crime is a pretty silly thing to say as well.

In that case, I do agree that she if she did less evil things (due to Agarthans not being around), she would be better morally. Of course, we do not know if this would truly be the case. For example, I doubt that the Agarthans told her to keep on persecuting members of the Church (non-CF routes).

Edited by MrPerson0

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15 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah. But we have to realize that without the Agarthans, Chapters 6, 8, and 9 don't happen. But if you want the story to happen as it does without the Agarthans being involved, then we need to wonder who caused Flayn's kidnapping, Remire, and then Jeralt's death. 

Was it the Church? Or Edelgard? 

Flayn is kidnapped by a mercenary (maybe still the Death Knight, but I kinda hate him) employed by Hanneman. He believes that her blood is the secret to a life-saving medicine. We don't actually learn this until post-skip, when he confesses to Byleth - Flayn forgives him (on non-CF routes), but we still have the choice to banish him, or let him stay.

In Remire, some people fall ill, and the Church places the whole village under quarantine. They get more and more antsy, until the levee bursts - the healthy villagers take up arms against the Church, and against fellow villagers who remain faithful. After the ringleaders are defeated, Manuela is able to save the survivors, using a rather fishy potion provided by Hanneman.

As for Jeralt, he's killed by a demonic beast at the chapel. See, Hubert had gotten his hands on some illicit crest stones, and was meeting with Edelgard and Linhardt to experiment on them, at the Abandoned Chapel. Unfortunately, teenagers like to meet there to make out. In a dash to escape, they left a pile of crest stone dust, which the nameless dumbass kids decided to snort, turning themselves into Demonic Beasts. Don't do drugs, kids.

Next chapter, Linhardt flees, wracked with guilt (Edelgard and Hubert evade blame). He hides in the Sealed Forest, and makes friends with other bandits and outlaws who hang out there. In that map, Byleth hunts down Linhardt and attacks him, after getting through his new family; but if he's your student, you have the option to spare him. There's no Sothis fusion... maybe that can happen at the timeskip, IDK.

This is all half-serious and half-baked, but I think there's a way to keep the general story beats while getting rid of the Slitheres. Whether the resultant game is "better" is anyone's guess.

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