The True Tragedy of Three Houses

[Flere210]

Three houses is not even the main theme if the game. The original title is a reference to the four season, therefore four factions. 

Gronder is a thing that happen midgame and is not even that relevant innthe first place. The game was never a three way brawl, it always was Edelgard vs Everyone, but mostly vs Rhea. 

Claude and the Alliance in general are by far the least involved in the story and VW had to cannibalize a lot of stuff that should have been on SS to justify it's existence. 

I think they introduced a third house because they realized people most likely wanted an option other than the insane murderhobo and the evil emperor.

[Jotari]

9 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Three houses is not even the main theme if the game. The original title is a reference to the four season, therefore four factions. 

Gronder is a thing that happen midgame and is not even that relevant innthe first place. The game was never a three way brawl, it always was Edelgard vs Everyone, but mostly vs Rhea. 

Claude and the Alliance in general are by far the least involved in the story and VW had to cannibalize a lot of stuff that should have been on SS to justify it's existence. 

I think they introduced a third house because they realized people most likely wanted an option other than the insane murderhobo and the evil emperor.

Still doesn't really justify why I can't recruit the murderhobo when the social justice warrior is the guy I'm following, or vice versa. Or both when you reject all of them. In fact if it was really just about giving a third option, you'd think Rhea would have a route to follow. But instead we get Claude (and I do like Claude! This isn't a slight against his character) who alternately feels like he's just hanging around in the plot or outright abandoning it. These issues probably come from a change in development plan, but just because that's an explanation for them doesn't mean it's not still an issue.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Jotari

[Timlugia]

I really think Verdant Wind should be released later as a free update, with completely unique story if they didn't want to push the release day, and spent their pre-release resource on improving Silver Snow and Crimson Flower.

Such as having Rhea as a lord in Silver Snow (like by making the route slightly longer to justify playing her after the rescue) or having better closure with TWISTD in Crimson Flower then just an ending slide on one character.

[Crysta]

Eh, Rhea's a much better background character than lord because of her position of authority and knowledge at the onset of the game. Making her a lord and an integral part of the story undermines that, and makes it very awkward of her to continue to hide the truth from you if you're literally by her side. That's why they shove her off somewhere for the second half of the game. And honestly? Having her be enigmatic is part of her charm. I'm pretty sure it would still be considered the least compelling narrative in the game if they don't significantly change the plot beats, which are the real problem.

I like the for-once-not-completely-white lordling with a bow on a wyvern. They should have just given him a more unique, politically schemey route.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Crysta

[Etrurian emperor]

5 hours ago, Timlugia said:

I really think Verdant Wind should be released later as a free update, with completely unique story if they didn't want to push the release day, and spent their pre-release resource on improving Silver Snow and Crimson Flower.

Such as having Rhea as a lord in Silver Snow (like by making the route slightly longer to justify playing her after the rescue) or having better closure with TWISTD in Crimson Flower then just an ending slide on one character.

Wouldn't removing Silver Snow be the better option? People would get annoyed if one of the big three was openly snubbed like that and Verdant Wind adds a lot more to Three Houses than Silver Snow. 

[Flere210]

Verdant Wind need to be rewritten from scratch in order to be justified. Right now it only exist because SS got robbed on content that should have been there. Nemesis has no Stake as Claude enemy, he need an actual "ceo of racism" as a final boss, someone whose existence means that Fodlan and Almyra can never be at peace. Nemesis should have been in SS. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Crysta]

I'm fine with Nemesis being the SS main boss due to the callbacks, but adding him really doesn't entirely salvage that route. At all. It just makes the ending more exciting.

[Moltz23]

33 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Wouldn't removing Silver Snow be the better option?

Silver Snow needs to exist because Edelgard is not the kind of lord everyone can get behind. That, and attemping to pull a redemption arc with her is impossible because the game gives you nothing to make it work and Edelgard herself already has a clear idea of how to make peace with her actions which, unlike Dimitri, she can't really backtrack from.

That being said, Silver Snow really needs something unique to itself to justify its existance gameplay wise, and that's one of the main reasons in the first place why Claude's route is seen as the superior incarnation of the route. By contrast, Edelgard and Hubert leaving midgame while getting nothing that's not already available in AM/VW does little favors to SS overall.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Moltz23

[Flere210]

7 minutes ago, Crysta said:

I'm fine with Nemesis being the SS main boss due to the callbacks, but adding him really doesn't entirely salvage that route. At all. It just makes the ending more exciting.

It's why i said the tip of the iceberg. Silver Snow should be the route that focus deeply on the lore, the mole people and the dragon people. Claude route should be much more about almyra, the politics whitin the alliance(maybe giving Lorenz's father his just dessert?) and the fight againist racism.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Flere210

[Crysta]

Just now, Flere210 said:

It's why i said the tio of the iceberg. Silver Snow should be the route that focus deeply on the lore, the mole people and the dragon people. Claude route should be much more about almyra, the politics whitin the alliance(maybe giving Lorenz's father his just dessert?) and the fight againist racism.

It is already focuses primarily on lore and falls flat. I don't think Almyra needs to take center stage in a Fodlan-centric conflict where people are complaining about Claude's lack of connection to it's struggles, but adding more politics to the mix would have been cool in a nation rife with them. And I think it's already a fight against racism? Or are you suggesting there be more blatant racists outside of the NPCs?

[Etrurian emperor]

4 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Or are you suggesting there be more blatant racists outside of the NPCs?

Ingrid is pretty racist and while Edelgard seems to be tolerant of various human races you could argue she's racist towards lizard people. 

[Crysta]

9 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Ingrid is pretty racist and while Edelgard seems to be tolerant of various human races you could argue she's racist towards lizard people. 

I think putting the Almyran-Fodlan tension more on-screen probably would have been a better way to put emphasis on the hurdles Claude is trying to overcome, but yeah, it's still kind of... clearly there.

[Flere210]

I feel Claude should kinda be his own thing, there is just no way to make him as entrenched in the conflict as Edelgard, Dimitri and Rhea whitout rewriting the character. For him whatever happen innthe game is just a stepoing stone to something grander, and imo the route should focus on that.

[Crysta]

10 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

I feel Claude should kinda be his own thing, there is just no way to make him as entrenched in the conflict as Edelgard, Dimitri and Rhea whitout rewriting the character. For him whatever happen innthe game is just a stepoing stone to something grander, and imo the route should focus on that.

I don't think it makes sense for Claude to be a lord if he's not in Fodlan, and if he's in Fodlan it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for him to completely ignore the central conflict that threatens his land.

Dimitri's one-sided murder crush on Edelgard doesn't actually make him more interconnected to the central conflict between Edelgard and the Church. I'd actually argue AM is the least connected to what is actually happening behind the scenes, even though it's set up gives it a significant thread to the Slitherers (the Tragedy). It doesn't really do much with it in the second half of the game. Claude, at the very least, has a very clear and tangible reason to want Rhea removed.

CF is easily the most 'connected' route.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Crysta

[Flere210]

1 minute ago, Crysta said:

I don't think it makes sense for Claude to be a lord if he's not in Fodlan, and if he's in Fodlan it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for him to completely ignore the central conflict that threatens his land.

Dimitri's one-sided murder crush on Edelgard doesn't actually make him more interconnected to the central conflict between Edelgard and the Church. I'd actually argue AM is the least connected to what is actually happening behind the scenes, even though it's set up gives it a significant thread to the Slitherers (the Tragedy), but it... doesn't really do much with it in the second half of the game.

Dimitri stake in the conflict is that the slither are guilty of everything bad that happen to him for his whole life. Claude stake innthe conflict is that he has to deal with a Crisis in Fodlan before dedicating to the thing he really want to do. 

He obviously have to stay in Fodlan, and he has to take part in the conflict. But his main enemies imo should not be the slithers, but the people, both in Fodlan and Almyra, that make a coexistence impossible. I think having a map or 2 in almyra, as well as making the king appear on screen, should be enought.

 

Rhea is actually a perfectly viable enemy for Claude, as she isolated Fodlan and want to keep it isolated, and Edelgard is too, assuming she allies whit the nobles that did the tragedy of Duscur. Dimitri is not a direct threat, but if he goes completely Berserk he can't be an ally either. 

 

[Crysta]

Dimitri's motivations are tied to the Slitherers but his focus is almost solely on Edelgard until he gets over his murder hobo stage. Once he does that, he's more interested in figuring out WTF happens, but the route has us accidentally kill Thales and we don't really get a resolution that explains what truly happened in the Tragedy in that route or in any other. You just get more plot threads that aren't followed up on. If you need a motivation for Claude to get involved beyond just simple survival, you have one in Rhea actively hindering Fodlan technologically and culturally so she can maintain control and order - that's his primary obstacle, and why he isn't keen on her coming back. Unfortunately, with Byleth in his corner and he being Rhea's hand-appointed successor, that obstacle is all but gone and he didn't really have to do any dirty work for it lol. That's more of a problem with how the narrative sets Byleth up more than how they set him up, though, and Byleth is also what makes SS feel like inferior VW to many people (he's just not very interesting).

Claude can't exist in the story as is and just focus on Fodlan-Almyran conflicts against the backdrop of another war. Even as a side story DLC it'd feel even more weird and disconnected to the main game, unless you dispersed that tension throughout the main storyline and made it relevant to something... why would anyone care about what's happening with Almyra when Fodlan is on fire?

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Crysta

[eclipse]

A bit of spy info post-timeskip would reveal that the Kingdom wants the Empire dead, and the Empire wants the church dead.  Why not have Claude bait all three into attacking each other, if we're going the morally gray route?

[Crysta]

Because the Empire isn't interested in allowing the Alliance to continue to exist, either, and there's a very straightforward and much safer "an enemy of my enemy is my friend" situation available. If she rick-rolls the Kingdom first - which would be preferable if Claude couldn't ally with them so he could at least muster more Almyran forces in the meantime - she subjugates it and gets more support. He's next.

If the Church-Kingdom wins, he's simply in the position he was in before, so he should be more invested in that outcome. It's the better outcome for him.

Which I think was his plan in CF (for some reason not allying with the others), but Edelgard probably knows him far too well and that's why she prioritizes attacking the Alliance first. Claude is the much more dangerous player on the board.

Honestly he should have just had a temporary alliance with the Church-Kingdom, too, but maybe he thought he should wait it out and see what happens. But that never seems to turn out well for him lol.

They just should have made Rhea less interested in stepping down from her position once she found out Byleth wasn't gonna turn into her mommy, instead of still treating Byleth as her natural replacement.

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Crysta

[Timlugia]

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Wouldn't removing Silver Snow be the better option? People would get annoyed if one of the big three was openly snubbed like that and Verdant Wind adds a lot more to Three Houses than Silver Snow. 

Looking at the game structure, Silver Snow seems to be the first route to be made. So removing Silver Snow wouldn't happen chronologically unless you are arguing making the Verdant Wind after Silver Snow like currently, then remove Silver Snow, but that seems very redundant to me. Also like people already point out, Verdant Wind is quite detached from the rest of game, so it would be probably just start over with a new route. What I was arguing is at the point they realize they can't make a unique VW, they should just postpone VW and focusing on SS, AM, CF on release, then come back to make a brand new VW when they have time.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Timlugia

[Crysta]

They were all likely written alongside each other and by different but coordinating writers. It lightens the workload. The re-use of assets was likely the result of a time crunch more than anything, not the actual story writing itself (though they probably made changes to better meld the re-used assets).

I think SS was always intended to be "here's everything else you may not have learned" route.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Crysta

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Timlugia said:

I really think Verdant Wind should be released later as a free update, with completely unique story if they didn't want to push the release day, and spent their pre-release resource on improving Silver Snow and Crimson Flower.

Such as having Rhea as a lord in Silver Snow (like by making the route slightly longer to justify playing her after the rescue) or having better closure with TWISTD in Crimson Flower then just an ending slide on one character.

Or she could just not be captured in the first place.

2 hours ago, Crysta said:

Eh, Rhea's a much better background character than lord because of her position of authority and knowledge at the onset of the game. Making her a lord and an integral part of the story undermines that, and makes it very awkward of her to continue to hide the truth from you if you're literally by her side. That's why they shove her off somewhere for the second half of the game. And honestly? Having her be enigmatic is part of her charm. I'm pretty sure it would still be considered the least compelling narrative in the game if they don't significantly change the plot beats, which are the real problem.

I like the for-once-not-completely-white lordling with a bow on a wyvern. They should have just given him a more unique, politically schemey route.

I get that, but I also feel like Rhea is completely wasted in the second half by not actually being in it.

[Crysta]

Just now, Jotari said:

I get that, but I also feel like Rhea is completely wasted in the second half by not actually being in it.

Probably. Just putting her in the fridge wasn't really explained, either.

[Timlugia]

On 2/18/2020 at 4:30 PM, Crysta said:

Probably. Just putting her in the fridge wasn't really explained, either.

Theoretically they could change it to Rhea simply fled the battlefield, and abandoning all hope and her own knights after presuming Byleth was dead, instead of being captured.

(funny, they never explained how did they capture a flying dragon at the first place, or preventing her from transform again in the jail)

 

She then spent next 5 years wandering in the wilderness just like when Nemesis killed Sothis, Silver Snow picked up from there looking for her, only realized that Imperial Army also found her location, so Byleth and co raced against time to get her and repeal pursuers. Rhea was overjoyed that Byleth was still alive, and handed over the power to them there, and herself fight as a soldier under Byleth (can even introduce her Saint class here) The game then went back to the "original" track of contacting Alliance for troops and counterattacks

As for Nemesis, he could actually be placed before Shambhala, where TWISTD assemble a field army to attack newly victorious Resistant Army, the two armies met on Gronder (as replacement for SS not having Eagle and Lion), where Rhea and Byleth slayed Nemesis again before marching into Shambhala. The ending would be what I suggested before, giving a better explanation about Rhea's degeneration by actually states Javelin was poisoned against dragons.

In this concept, they actually only need to make one extra level (rescuing Rhea, can even reuse Tailtean), with some dialogue adjustment, yet making Silver Snow an unique path of it's own.

 

* My new Chapter 15 Silver Snow: A Race for a Hope

After defeating Imperial attacks on the Monastery, Seteth informs Byleth that they have found Rhea, who has been sighted near Tailtean Field where she fought Nemesis eon ago, but Imperial Army also got this info, Byleth and co must rescue Rhea before Imperials get her.

Mandatory deploy: Byleth, Seteth, Flayn + 8

Objective: Rescue Rhea, then escort her to evacuation point

Failure: Byleth, Rhea, Seteth or Flayn fell

Boss: Cordelia, Arundel

The level would be a rescue and extrication type. Cordelia who works for the empire, already captured Rhea and ready to hand her over to Lord Arundel from Empire.  Rhea, after losing hope, simply letting herself to be captured.

Rhea would be on the north side of map in the fortress (where Dimitri made his stand in CF), surrounded by Cordelia's man. Seteth would explains to player about Cordelia being the true ruler of Faerghus

Byleth must fight through the defense, kill Cordelia and get Rhea. One Byleth reaches Rhea, a cutscene would play showing the two reunites and Rhea express her surprise that Byleth still lives (could even use the still CG from Enbarr with a different background). At this point, Lord Arundel and his army would show up, trying to intercept Rhea. The objective changed into escorting Rhea to an evacuation area, with Arundel pursuing player, who can choose either defeat them or simply get Rhea out.

From the next level Rhea would join as an unit, player can choose either using her Archbishop class or Saint class, former being mag base while later being melee based.

--------

Since we were here, I still need to mini rant again about the "mystery of Silver Snow". That Seteth and Flayn insist to show Byleth something important hidden in the monastery, yet was never mentioned again. Then the next chapter name "A King without Kingdom" also makes wondering...who's this king we are talking about? the level has nothing to do with Dimitri as far as I know...

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by Timlugia

[Darkmoon6789]

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Ingrid is pretty racist and while Edelgard seems to be tolerant of various human races you could argue she's racist towards lizard people. 

She does allow you to spare Seteth and Flayn. So I am guessing it is less her being racist and more her having a problem with how the lizard people puts themselves above humanity and think humanity can only prosper if controlled by them. Edelgard does not look favorably on people who consider themselves to have a right to rule based on their bloodline. Whenever that is considering yourself superior or more worthy of rule because of your family, having a crest or being an ageless immortal.

[omegaxis1]

4 hours ago, Moltz23 said:

Silver Snow needs to exist because Edelgard is not the kind of lord everyone can get behind. That, and attemping to pull a redemption arc with her is impossible because the game gives you nothing to make it work and Edelgard herself already has a clear idea of how to make peace with her actions which, unlike Dimitri, she can't really backtrack from.

"Redemption" is a term used for when someone is fighting for an entirely unjust cause that is no way able to be agreed on. Dimitri's being about redemption is cause he was in this for revenge, which anyone can agree is never a just reason. 

2 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

She does allow you to spare Seteth and Flayn. So I am guessing it is less her being racist and more her having a problem with how the lizard people puts themselves above humanity and think humanity can only prosper if controlled by them. Edelgard does not look favorably on people who consider themselves to have a right to rule based on their bloodline. Whenever that is considering yourself superior or more worthy of rule because of your family, having a crest or being an ageless immortal.

It's not like the lizard people gave Edelgard a good reason to consider them trustworthy. 

The problem with Rhea is that because she's immortal and deceiving humanity constantly, she's causing a problem with stagnant leadership. If a leader is ruling over people almost indefinitely, that's seriously something humans cannot get by.