The True Tragedy of Three Houses

[Darkmoon6789]

12 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

"Redemption" is a term used for when someone is fighting for an entirely unjust cause that is no way able to be agreed on. Dimitri's being about redemption is cause he was in this for revenge, which anyone can agree is never a just reason. 

It's not like the lizard people gave Edelgard a good reason to consider them trustworthy. 

The problem with Rhea is that because she's immortal and deceiving humanity constantly, she's causing a problem with stagnant leadership. If a leader is ruling over people almost indefinitely, that's seriously something humans cannot get by.

You would be suprised just how many people confuse vengeance with justice. I consider that an extremly dangerous mindset to have as once you convince yourself that people deserve to suffer you can become capable of inflicting any amount of suffering for sadistic reasons.

And yes, while Rhea can be a good person she is simply too controlling and is literally supressing technological progress. She needs to either step down or be removed. Nothing personal, but it is for the good of Fodlan

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

You would be suprised just how many people confuse vengeance with justice. I consider that an extremly dangerous mindset to have as once you convince yourself that people deserve to suffer you can become capable of inflicting any amount of suffering for sadistic reasons.

It's amazing how so many people are complaining that she should have tried to take out the Agarthans first, and then the Church, but they have to ignore so many details. 

1 minute ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

And yes, while Rhea can be a good person she is simply too controlling and is literally supressing technological progress. She needs to either step down or be removed. Nothing personal, but it is for the good of Fodlan

Pretty much. One of the things is something that could have paved the road to actually changing society and possibly even removing absolute monarchy.

[Axel987]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

It's amazing how so many people are complaining that she should have tried to take out the Agarthans first, and then the Church, but they have to ignore so many details. 

Pretty much. One of the things is something that could have paved the road to actually changing society and possibly even removing absolute monarchy.

Do people actually say that?? Like the logical complaint is not seeing her actually go after the Agarthans after the church is taken down, not the other way around. Why would she go after the Agarthans first when they're supplying her with troops and weapons for now and they've got a common enemy lol.

[Darkmoon6789]

53 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

It's amazing how so many people are complaining that she should have tried to take out the Agarthans first, and then the Church, but they have to ignore so many details. 

Pretty much. One of the things is something that could have paved the road to actually changing society and possibly even removing absolute monarchy.

However much I hate the idea of working with the Slitherers, what Hubert has to say about it is actually very sound logic, they can't possibly afford going to war against them and the church simultaneously. One thing that makes me feel a lot better about that is that both Edelgard and Hubert hates the idea of working with them just as much as I would do, so neither of us would be truly happy with that arrangement, but we would acknowledge that it would be necessary. 

The only alternative to allying with the Slitherers is really to make an alliance with Rhea, exposing Arundel as the true puppetmaster behind the Empire and a survivor of the Agarthans, hoping that Rhea's hatred for them would overshadow her hatred of Edelgard. But this would probably not work and she is very unlikely to be able get her reforms often ground without removing Rhea.

One thing that I have considered with in regards system of government is that over time, it is possible that it could progress to a more democratic society due to the removal of the barrier between the noble and common. Edelgard believes that the most qualified should rule, for the moment that is determined by the previous Emperor in choosing their inner circle and successor out of anyone, regardless of background. In this system, last the ages. It is possible that it will eventually progress into a system where the people as a whole, choose the successor to the title of emperor. Though this is actually better or worse than how things were under Edelgard. I am not certain I have heard that and I have heard far worse

47 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

Do people actually say that?? Like the logical complaint is not seeing her actually go after the Agarthans after the church is taken down, not the other way around. Why would she go after the Agarthans first when they're supplying her with troops and weapons for now and they've got a common enemy lol.

I have definitely heard that and I have also heard far worse, some people really hate Edelgard and would go to the lengths of outright defamation in order to find reasons to hate her. People don't have to like her, but I would prefer if the reasons for that are actually true and not completely made up. A lot of people have a really inaccurate view of who Edelgard is as a person

Edited February 19, 2020 by Darkmoon6789

[Jotari]

9 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Ingrid is pretty racist and while Edelgard seems to be tolerant of various human races you could argue she's racist towards lizard people. 

Most racist person in the game is actually probably Cyril. Lot of internalised racism inside that boy.

[B.Leu]

10 hours ago, Timlugia said:

She then spent next 5 years wandering in the wilderness just like when Nemesis killed Sothis, Silver Snow picked up from there looking for her, only realized that Imperial Army also found her location, so Byleth and co raced against time to get her and repeal pursuers. Rhea was overjoyed that Byleth was still alive, and handed over the power to them there, and herself fight as a soldier under Byleth (can even introduce her Saint class here) The game then went back to the "original" track of contacting Alliance for troops and counterattacks

As for Nemesis, he could actually be placed before Shambhala, where TWISTD assemble a field army to attack newly victorious Resistant Army, the two armies met on Gronder (as replacement for SS not having Eagle and Lion), where Rhea and Byleth slayed Nemesis again before marching into Shambhala. The ending would be what I suggested before, giving a better explanation about Rhea's degeneration by actually states Javelin was poisoned against dragons.

In this concept, they actually only need to make one extra level (rescuing Rhea, can even reuse Tailtean), with some dialogue adjustment, yet making Silver Snow an unique path of it's own.

That make me thinks, each lords gain some sort of realization that lead them to developement, even Claude, even if his is shitty. Except for Rhea, who just have one after everything behind a S support, which is kinda bad imo.
My question is, what kind of realization could lead Rhea toward character development, have that would make sense ?
I thought about a more sentient, not final boss Nemesis that could say some uncomfortable truths, him and Rhea really did not have much of a talk after all, and Nemi... doesn't talk that much. 😛
That would another layer of "it's that...", "but in another route, the truth is...".
...can you tell that I don't like what they did with Nemi ? 😛

I mean, one could argue that SS is just about Byleth, but shhh.

On 2/18/2020 at 12:31 AM, Darkmoon6789 said:

Maybe because keeping Edelgard in line is very important as this is what secures them an army. Or maybe Thales really liked Cornelia. The nuke did serve its purpose at least for a time. A better question is why they don't do this more often

I thought it was because they were really short on those, but.. it's hard to tell how many they launched on Fort Merceus, and in CF there's only one explosion that is heard...
Lauching them apparently make it super-easy to spot their base, which is weird, but I suppose that's what those purple rings are for.
 

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Most racist person in the game is actually probably Cyril. Lot of internalised racism inside that boy.

Yup. Only the best of Almyrans are shown in game eh ? 😛

Edited February 19, 2020 by B.Leu

[Eurydice]

16 hours ago, Moltz23 said:

Silver Snow needs to exist because Edelgard is not the kind of lord everyone can get behind. That, and attemping to pull a redemption arc with her is impossible because the game gives you nothing to make it work and Edelgard herself already has a clear idea of how to make peace with her actions which, unlike Dimitri, she can't really backtrack from.

Bingo. Not everybody is going to like or even agree with Edelgard. 

About the part with Dimitri, disagree ? This man has murdered what the game has hinted to be innocent people off the battlefield. Dimitri only "redeems", because he chooses too and the game really badly wants you to feel sorry for him. Not going to happen, sorry not sorry Edel however, is going to keep on walking forward no matter what and she doesn't see herself as needing to redeem. Why should she "redeem" ? It would be so OOC for her because she strongly believes that she's in the right and is doing the right thing for a better future for her country. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Eurydice

[Jotari]

Black Eagles could have just outright segwayed into Verdant Wind if they bothered to actually include the other lords as characters in Part 1.

2 hours ago, Eurydice said:

Bingo. Not everybody is going to like or even agree with Edelgard. 

About the part with Dimitri, disagree ? This man has murdered what the game has hinted to be innocent people off the battlefield. Dimitri only "redeems", because he chooses too and the game really badly wants you to feel sorry for him. Not going to happen, sorry not sorry Edel however, is going to keep on walking forward no matter what and she doesn't see herself as needing to redeem. Why should she "redeem" ? It would be so OOC for her because she strongly believes that she's in the right and is doing the right thing for a better future for her country. 

What innocent people off the battlefield is Dimitri implied to have killed? Best I could guess at is that he probably killed some kingdom guards when escaping his execution. Dimitri's mad, but it's not like he's wandering up to farms and slaughtering random people. He has a logic to his madness. Everything he does he thinks he's doing in aid of defeating Edelgard. That is to say its mostly imperial soldiers he's being throwing himself at.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

16 minutes ago, Jotari said:

What innocent people off the battlefield is Dimitri implied to have killed? Best I could guess at is that he probably killed some kingdom guards when escaping his execution. Dimitri's mad, but it's not like he's wandering up to farms and slaughtering random people. He has a logic to his madness. Everything he does he thinks he's doing in aid of defeating Edelgard. That is to say its mostly imperial soldiers he's being throwing himself at.

Well, Dimitri admitted that he killed kids. I mean, with his strength and skill, does killing kids, even if they are armed, really seem justified? 

I would not say that he has "logic" in the way you are thinking. His "logic" is warped in that he deems ANYONE that is, in HIS view, "unworthy" of life. Byleth once tried to reason out that bandits might just be people that are desperate for some food or have some good reason. Dimitri immediately snaps at him.

Because in his reality, everyone that kills or is trying to kill, is absolutely unforgivable.

It's rather interesting how in this route, Felix is rather adamant in wanting Dimitri back, in the first thing he tells Byleth is that they have to try and get Dimitri back to normal. 

[Sid Starkiller]

15 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Well, Dimitri admitted that he killed kids. I mean, with his strength and skill, does killing kids, even if they are armed, really seem justified? 

I would not say that he has "logic" in the way you are thinking. His "logic" is warped in that he deems ANYONE that is, in HIS view, "unworthy" of life. Byleth once tried to reason out that bandits might just be people that are desperate for some food or have some good reason. Dimitri immediately snaps at him.

Because in his reality, everyone that kills or is trying to kill, is absolutely unforgivable.

It's rather interesting how in this route, Felix is rather adamant in wanting Dimitri back, in the first thing he tells Byleth is that they have to try and get Dimitri back to normal. 

All of this. If SS NEEDS to exist, then AM NEEDS an equivalent. By Gronder I was ready to tell Dimitri to f*** off, march his dumb ass to Enbarr alone and die for nothing, but the game wouldn't let me.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Sid Starkiller said:

All of this. If SS NEEDS to exist, then AM NEEDS an equivalent. By Gronder I was ready to tell Dimitri to f*** off, march his dumb ass to Enbarr alone and die for nothing, but the game wouldn't let me.

There was apparently supposed to be this darker route of AM where Annette and Felix join Cornelia. But this route gets cut out. But for some reason, you still side with Dimitri there. 😕

[eclipse]

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

Most racist person in the game is actually probably Cyril. Lot of internalised racism inside that boy.

Hmm. . .he was a literal kid when he was transplanted.  So. . .was it from his upbringing with Rhea, due to some of the nonsense with what little he remembers of his homeland, or a bit of both?  Because the former would have some very interesting implications.

[Axel987]

21 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Hmm. . .he was a literal kid when he was transplanted.  So. . .was it from his upbringing with Rhea, due to some of the nonsense with what little he remembers of his homeland, or a bit of both?  Because the former would have some very interesting implications.

I'm unsure about what effect Rhea has had on him but it's definitely stated he was an orphan and then used a child soldier by the Almyrans during their seasonal raids on Fodlan's locket, so I imagine his -really- negative opinions come from his experiences during that time.

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

I'm unsure about what effect Rhea has had on him but it's definitely stated he was an orphan and then used a child soldier by the Almyrans during their seasonal raids on Fodlan's locket, so I imagine his -really- negative opinions come from his experiences during that time.

He was also a slave when taken into Fodlan. 

Let's actually bring that up. 

There's actual SLAVERY IN FODLAN.

[Axel987]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

He was also a slave when taken into Fodlan. 

Let's actually bring that up. 

There's actual SLAVERY IN FODLAN.

Oh absolutely it's one of the most side-lined aspects of 3H lmao. House Goneril straight up captures and enslaves the child soldiers used by the Almyran Invaders. I frankly did not pay much attention to the ending texts for Hilda in any route but is that like, ever actually adressed beyond her paralogue?

[omegaxis1]

6 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

Oh absolutely it's one of the most side-lined aspects of 3H lmao. House Goneril straight up captures and enslaves the child soldiers used by the Almyran Invaders. I frankly did not pay much attention to the ending texts for Hilda in any route but is that like, ever actually adressed beyond her paralogue?

Keep in mind that one of the biggest factors that allow people to have slaves is the concept of dehumanization. And the fact that Fodlan's xenophobia makes them refer to most foreigners as "beasts", that's already dehumanization. 

[Axel987]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Keep in mind that one of the biggest factors that allow people to have slaves is the concept of dehumanization. And the fact that Fodlan's xenophobia makes them refer to most foreigners as "beasts", that's already dehumanization. 

I'm well aware of the de-humanisation aspect, I just wondered if that ever gets expanded on, although given how -criminally- underused Almyra is in general, likely not. It's unfortunate because we also don't get to learn why the people in Fodlan dislike the Almyran's so much beyond them constantly invading for fun, which mind you is understandable to dislike and likely feeds into why they refer to the Almyran's as beasts; they think they're uncivilized barbarians.

I'm not trying to defend slavery here mind you, I'm a person of colour myself and I abhor it. I just think it's an aspect of the game that isn't really gone into too much surprisingly despite it being a big factor of Claude's character. IMO us not seeing Holst and Nader interact is a missed opportunity in this respect as we could've learned more from either side and seen the beginnings of some form of reconcillation.

[eclipse]

4 hours ago, Axel987 said:

I'm well aware of the de-humanisation aspect, I just wondered if that ever gets expanded on, although given how -criminally- underused Almyra is in general, likely not. It's unfortunate because we also don't get to learn why the people in Fodlan dislike the Almyran's so much beyond them constantly invading for fun, which mind you is understandable to dislike and likely feeds into why they refer to the Almyran's as beasts; they think they're uncivilized barbarians.

I'm not trying to defend slavery here mind you, I'm a person of colour myself and I abhor it. I just think it's an aspect of the game that isn't really gone into too much surprisingly despite it being a big factor of Claude's character. IMO us not seeing Holst and Nader interact is a missed opportunity in this respect as we could've learned more from either side and seen the beginnings of some form of reconcillation.

This could've been another cool aspect to go into, but I can understand why it was sidelined.  Stuff like racism is still an ongoing problem, and must be handled delicately.  Otherwise. . .Ingrid is no longer alone.

[Darkmoon6789]

3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

He was also a slave when taken into Fodlan. 

Let's actually bring that up. 

There's actual SLAVERY IN FODLAN.

Yet another thing that Edelgard is likely to abolish. As well as Claude.  Equality is a priority for both of them.

I don't know much about Cyril, but if he was a slave in a system that Rhea created, why is he so loyal to Rhea? Did she free him from his life as a slave or something??

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Well, Dimitri admitted that he killed kids. I mean, with his strength and skill, does killing kids, even if they are armed, really seem justified? 

I would not say that he has "logic" in the way you are thinking. His "logic" is warped in that he deems ANYONE that is, in HIS view, "unworthy" of life. Byleth once tried to reason out that bandits might just be people that are desperate for some food or have some good reason. Dimitri immediately snaps at him.

Because in his reality, everyone that kills or is trying to kill, is absolutely unforgivable.

It's rather interesting how in this route, Felix is rather adamant in wanting Dimitri back, in the first thing he tells Byleth is that they have to try and get Dimitri back to normal. 

I don't remember the killing kids quotes but I would counter by suggesting that could refer to someone like Cyril. Other than that you've more or less stated the point I was trying to make. The people that Dimitri kills are themselves killers. He's still definitely wrong to be doing so, but it's a given definition of "innocent". He's not walking up to random people and impaling them for fun. Who he kills he sees in some way as a threat.

6 hours ago, eclipse said:

Hmm. . .he was a literal kid when he was transplanted.  So. . .was it from his upbringing with Rhea, due to some of the nonsense with what little he remembers of his homeland, or a bit of both?  Because the former would have some very interesting implications.

Interesting Implications is the best way to describe Cyril as a whole. Should have been his ending title.

[omegaxis1]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I don't remember the killing kids quotes but I would counter by suggesting that could refer to someone like Cyril. Other than that you've more or less stated the point I was trying to make. The people that Dimitri kills are themselves killers. He's still definitely wrong to be doing so, but it's a given definition of "innocent". He's not walking up to random people and impaling them for fun. Who he kills he sees in some way as a threat.

I think Dimitri makes a clear understanding on how he defines kids from soldiers. Basically like civilians, given how he talks about Lonato's men. And thing is, whether those kids are "killers", that doesn't change the context. Were they killers because they were just hungry orphans desperate for food? Or were they kids that merely killed some people in order to defend themselves? We aren't sure. All we do know is that from Dimitri's reality, they are unworthy of life, and thus he kills them.

As for when he says it, it's in the story itself:

Spoiler

In the end, regardless of how you wanna go around it, it doesn't change and cannot be changed to being something that's justifiable. Especially since even if they WERE killers, they were still kids. Kids that Dimitri literally should have had no problems with dealing with without the need to kill.

It just goes to show how warped Dimitri's reality is in his madness. 

The concept of there being a good reason or justifiable one does not exist in his mind. He lives in a pure black and white world. He even tries to insist that Byleth is just like him, when he really isn't. 

[Darkmoon6789]

31 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I think Dimitri makes a clear understanding on how he defines kids from soldiers. Basically like civilians, given how he talks about Lonato's men. And thing is, whether those kids are "killers", that doesn't change the context. Were they killers because they were just hungry orphans desperate for food? Or were they kids that merely killed some people in order to defend themselves? We aren't sure. All we do know is that from Dimitri's reality, they are unworthy of life, and thus he kills them.

As for when he says it, it's in the story itself:

  Reveal hidden contents

In the end, regardless of how you wanna go around it, it doesn't change and cannot be changed to being something that's justifiable. Especially since even if they WERE killers, they were still kids. Kids that Dimitri literally should have had no problems with dealing with without the need to kill.

It just goes to show how warped Dimitri's reality is in his madness. 

The concept of there being a good reason or justifiable one does not exist in his mind. He lives in a pure black and white world. He even tries to insist that Byleth is just like him, when he really isn't. 

I would have assumed that the people Dimitri killed would be imperial soldiers, killing soldiers in a war isn't necessarily wrong, it is something to be expected. But I can't imagine during what kind of circumstance he would have killed children, I don't think the imperial army use child soldiers. Granted with this game you never know, considering some of the students at Garreg Mach who were still sent into combat, but with medieval societies had a different view when someone was considered a grown-up. 

One thing that really disturbs me about Dimitri is that he seems to enjoy killing and inflicting suffering on imperials at this point in time, say what you want about Edelgard, but she never takes pleasure in killing and torturing. It is fortunate that Dimitri eventually becomes better because otherwise I would find him completely insufferable.

 

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

You can send Cyril into battle at like 13. Dimitri and others were sent to quell rebellions at the ripe age of 14. Child soldiers are a fact of Fodlan and if you knew Dimitri's character at all, you'd know that he feels tremendous guilt over killing anyone, even if it wasn't directly perpetrated by him. He's also never stated to have killed anyone randomly. Even the rumors circulating about him only mention him butchering imperial soldiers. He does kill some generals and such during his escape from the Kingdom but that's never given any exposition either. As such, him saying he killed children should be looked at as a question mark, not a period. If an enemy child soldier is attacking, it's either kill them or die in most cases, horrible as it is.

Also I'd like to point out that for as much as people like to talk about Edelgard bashing, turning around and doing it to Dimitri is no better.

[Crysta]

Kids are kids. It's not really a question mark: it is what they are.

And if he says he did it, then I'm willing to take his word for it.

If you think child soldiers with weaponry are a genuine threat to boar prince Dimitri and he's justified in slaughtering them, then you do you, I guess. He doesn't think he was.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Crysta

[eclipse]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Interesting Implications is the best way to describe Cyril as a whole. Should have been his ending title.

Now his lack of backstory makes me even more annoyed.  We have someone who could've given a lot of insight into Fodlan/Almyran culture, and instead he's eternally thankful to Rhea.