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omegaxis1

The True Tragedy of Three Houses

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7 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

You can send Cyril into battle at like 13. Dimitri and others were sent to quell rebellions at the ripe age of 14. Child soldiers are a fact of Fodlan and if you knew Dimitri's character at all, you'd know that he feels tremendous guilt over killing anyone, even if it wasn't directly perpetrated by him. He's also never stated to have killed anyone randomly. Even the rumors circulating about him only mention him butchering imperial soldiers. He does kill some generals and such during his escape from the Kingdom but that's never given any exposition either. As such, him saying he killed children should be looked at as a question mark, not a period. If an enemy child soldier is attacking, it's either kill them or die in most cases, horrible as it is.

Also I'd like to point out that for as much as people like to talk about Edelgard bashing, turning around and doing it to Dimitri is no better.

Sorry about that, haven't finished Azure Moon, so I am operating with incomplete information. As I said, I don't consider it a problem to kill soldiers during a war, it is kind of what you do when you are at war. The killing children thing just confused me about what he could possibly mean, but if it is actually referring to child soldiers, of course, it didn't have a choice, and it is a good thing that he feels bad about it. The thing is that I just care about Edelgard a lot and it is very hard to be objective when Dimitri wants to do horrible things to her based on a crime she didn't even commit. But that is because I know Edelgard is innocent of the tragedy of Duskur, Dimitri doesn't have the misinformation so his reaction does make sense. I also have a tendency to be very disapproving of the whole vengeance is justice thing in general, it is it is a very self-destructive principle in general . And even if Dimitri was successful in achieving his revenge, this wouldn't solve his personal issues and possibly would add even more personal guilt of his conscience once he found out the truth. I think Dimitri did the right thing in the end, it isn't really his fault that Edelgard is so stubborn and essentially refuses to be spared, but she did go out on our own terms in the end (I don't think Edelgard wanted to Dimitri with a dagger, it is more likely that she intended to force him to take her life as she by this point wanted to die, it is consistent with Edelgard's behaviour when defeated on other routes where she begs for Byleth to kill her)

At the end of the day I do consider Dimitri a great character and the fact that he and Edelgard used to be so close only to be driven apart by their personal trauma and the conflict is the true mark of a tragedy. While I would wish that there was a route where both Dimitri and Edelgard survive and managed to reconcile the differences, maybe that would undermine the tragedy. What would have actually happened if Edelgard would never actually accepted Dimitri's offer of mercy? 

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16 hours ago, B.Leu said:

That make me thinks, each lords gain some sort of realization that lead them to developement, even Claude, even if his is shitty. Except for Rhea, who just have one after everything behind a S support, which is kinda bad imo.
My question is, what kind of realization could lead Rhea toward character development, have that would make sense ?
I thought about a more sentient, not final boss Nemesis that could say some uncomfortable truths, him and Rhea really did not have much of a talk after all, and Nemi... doesn't talk that much. 😛
That would another layer of "it's that...", "but in another route, the truth is...".
...can you tell that I don't like what they did with Nemi ?

😛

Nemesis could probably play into Rhea's theme about losing loved ones, especially if the theory that Wilhelm was Rhea's lover was true, and that Nemesis also killed him. It also would work as a "surprise" to player that Edelgard was Rhea's decedent, Rhea would admit about it, reflecting on fighting her own bloodline.

Could have Nemesis mocks Rhea that she would never get over loss of her loved ones, and have him recites names of all the people he killed (Sothis, Wilhelm, then the 11 dragons). Rhea was enraged but Byleth stops her from attacking Nemesis alone, saying something along the archetype theme of FE that strength in bonds and friendship.

Rhea after battle realize it's time to accept the reality and treasure what she still has, that is Byleth as her family and friend and/or lover rather than what she lost in the past.

 

and I thought about the additional level they could put after Imperial counter attack in chapter 14:

 

* My new Chapter 15 Silver Snow: A Race for a Hope

After defeating Imperial attacks on the Monastery, Seteth informs Byleth that they have found Rhea, who has been sighted near Tailtean Field where she fought Nemesis eon ago, but Imperial Army also got this info, Byleth and co must rescue Rhea before Imperials get her.

Mandatory deploy: Byleth, Seteth, Flayn + 8

Objective: Rescue Rhea, then escort her to evacuation point

Failure: Byleth, Rhea, Seteth or Flayn fell

Boss: Cordelia, Arundel

The level would be a rescue and extrication type. Cordelia who works for the empire, already captured Rhea and ready to hand her over to Lord Arundel from Empire.  Rhea, after losing hope, simply letting herself to be captured.

Rhea would be on the north side of map in the fortress (where Dimitri made his stand in CF), surrounded by Cordelia's man. Seteth would explains to player about Cordelia being the true ruler of Faerghus

Byleth must fight through the defense, kill Cordelia and get Rhea. One Byleth reaches Rhea, a cutscene would play showing the two reunites and Rhea express her surprise that Byleth still lives (could even use the still CG from Enbarr with a different background). At this point, Lord Arundel and his army would show up, trying to intercept Rhea. The objective changed into escorting Rhea to an evacuation area, with Arundel pursuing player, who can choose either defeat them or simply get Rhea out.

From the next level Rhea would join as an unit, player can choose either using her Archbishop class or Saint class, former being mag base while later being melee based.

Edited by Timlugia

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14 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Sorry about that, haven't finished Azure Moon, so I am operating with incomplete information. As I said, I don't consider it a problem to kill soldiers during a war, it is kind of what you do when you are at war. The killing children thing just confused me about what he could possibly mean, but if it is actually referring to child soldiers, of course, it didn't have a choice, and it is a good thing that he feels bad about it. The thing is that I just care about Edelgard a lot and it is very hard to be objective when Dimitri wants to do horrible things to her based on a crime she didn't even commit. But that is because I know Edelgard is innocent of the tragedy of Duskur, Dimitri doesn't have the misinformation so his reaction does make sense. I also have a tendency to be very disapproving of the whole vengeance is justice thing in general, it is it is a very self-destructive principle in general . And even if Dimitri was successful in achieving his revenge, this wouldn't solve his personal issues and possibly would add even more personal guilt of his conscience once he found out the truth. I think Dimitri did the right thing in the end, it isn't really his fault that Edelgard is so stubborn and essentially refuses to be spared, but she did go out on our own terms in the end (I don't think Edelgard wanted to Dimitri with a dagger, it is more likely that she intended to force him to take her life as she by this point wanted to die, it is consistent with Edelgard's behaviour when defeated on other routes where she begs for Byleth to kill her)

At the end of the day I do consider Dimitri a great character and the fact that he and Edelgard used to be so close only to be driven apart by their personal trauma and the conflict is the true mark of a tragedy. While I would wish that there was a route where both Dimitri and Edelgard survive and managed to reconcile the differences, maybe that would undermine the tragedy. What would have actually happened if Edelgard would never actually accepted Dimitri's offer of mercy? 

I would like to preface this by saying that I appreciate you being so civil and open-minded about things 🙂 Unfortunately that's a touch hard to come by in any topic about Edelgard or Dimitri.

The problem with the killing children remark that so many Dimitri detractors refer to is that there's no explanation given. Dimitri doesn't feel there's an excuse no matter the reason and so he leaves it at that, and this is also before the whole redemption thing when he's actively trying to make you see him as negatively as he possibly can. As such, you sort of have to extrapolate based on what other people say about him and what you know to be true of him. Does Dimitri seem the type to mercilessly go after innocent children? (I'm not saying killing children is okay, just that we know literally nothing of the circumstances surrounding it) Consider that even when in the middle of his madness, it was stated by an NPC that they saw him petting a child's head around the monastery and that it's explicitly stated several times that he's only hunted imperial troops, most of whom have been sent after him in the first place. Your stance on "vengeance is justice" is very true and is touched on several times in AM, and I also mostly agree with your assessment of Edelgard's final moments. (But hey, as an Edelgard fan at least she gets the honor of a cutscene death in all the non-CF routes. Dimitri dies off screen twice lol)

What do you think would have happened? To be quite honest, I'm not sure if they could overcome their differences without a major viewpoint shift.

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I didn't get the impression that he was trying as hard as he could to make you see him in the worst possible light, so much as he just didn't care if you did and didn't care if someone inevitably killed him for the same reason he was pursuing Edelgard (and that is Fleche's motivation and why he's perfectly okay with her joining the army lol).

I think the implication is that he was attacked by children and he killed them. I doubt he would have a motivation to go after them, but boar prince Dimitri is perfectly fine with killing anyone if they get in his way. If that makes the situation more alright with you, okay I guess. But it's not a question of whether or not he actually did it.

Edited by Crysta

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I don't think Dimitri's a really reliable narrator during that period.  I believe he killed quite a few people, though.

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1 minute ago, eclipse said:

I don't think Dimitri's a really reliable narrator during that period.  I believe he killed quite a few people, though.

Does he have any reason to lie?

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21 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

I would like to preface this by saying that I appreciate you being so civil and open-minded about things 🙂 Unfortunately that's a touch hard to come by in any topic about Edelgard or Dimitri.

The problem with the killing children remark that so many Dimitri detractors refer to is that there's no explanation given. Dimitri doesn't feel there's an excuse no matter the reason and so he leaves it at that, and this is also before the whole redemption thing when he's actively trying to make you see him as negatively as he possibly can. As such, you sort of have to extrapolate based on what other people say about him and what you know to be true of him. Does Dimitri seem the type to mercilessly go after innocent children? (I'm not saying killing children is okay, just that we know literally nothing of the circumstances surrounding it) Consider that even when in the middle of his madness, it was stated by an NPC that they saw him petting a child's head around the monastery and that it's explicitly stated several times that he's only hunted imperial troops, most of whom have been sent after him in the first place. Your stance on "vengeance is justice" is very true and is touched on several times in AM, and I also mostly agree with your assessment of Edelgard's final moments. (But hey, as an Edelgard fan at least she gets the honor of a cutscene death in all the non-CF routes. Dimitri dies off screen twice lol)

What do you think would have happened? To be quite honest, I'm not sure if they could overcome their differences without a major viewpoint shift.

Maybe that is the point, that them overcoming their differences is literally impossible, hence why it is a tragedy. 

Your explanation of Dimitri does making him sound a lot more likeable, I should probably go through Azure Moon soon as it sounds really interesting from what I heard about it, even if it will have moments that will be painful for me because of my attachment to Edelgard. I think the reason that fans of one character or the other, often attack the other is because a argumentation tactic called deflection where you try to make one character seemed better by making someone else seem worse in comparison, especially if the other character is a rival to the character you are trying to defend. Which is why arguments about Edelgard often turn into bashing Rhea or Dimitri or trying to paint Rhea or Dimitri as a saint in order to make Edelgard seem worse. I feel that a lot of people in this world are actually quite incapable of understanding nuance, so they will usually jump to characters being entirely in the right and others being entirely in the wrong even if the truth is more complicated. 

And thanks, I usually do try to remain civil and open-minded  when I can. I would compare myself to Hubert in the way that I usually try to look at facts with a detached perspective, but like him. I also have unflinching loyalty to Edelgard, which can compromise that detached perspective. I have lost my cool in places, but never while on this website, people are usually quite civil here. In other places however I have seen these discussions turn very toxic. I did lose my temper in a discussion once because I was called a devil worshipper and the incarnation of evil because I am agnostic and believe there is actual nuance to good and evil, and all of this over my love for Edelgard. There should be rules against that sort of behaviour, and fortunately here there is.

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7 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

I think Dimitri makes a clear understanding on how he defines kids from soldiers. Basically like civilians, given how he talks about Lonato's men. And thing is, whether those kids are "killers", that doesn't change the context. Were they killers because they were just hungry orphans desperate for food? Or were they kids that merely killed some people in order to defend themselves? We aren't sure. All we do know is that from Dimitri's reality, they are unworthy of life, and thus he kills them.

As for when he says it, it's in the story itself:

  Hide contents

Dimitri_killed_kids.jpg

In the end, regardless of how you wanna go around it, it doesn't change and cannot be changed to being something that's justifiable. Especially since even if they WERE killers, they were still kids. Kids that Dimitri literally should have had no problems with dealing with without the need to kill.

It just goes to show how warped Dimitri's reality is in his madness. 

The concept of there being a good reason or justifiable one does not exist in his mind. He lives in a pure black and white world. He even tries to insist that Byleth is just like him, when he really isn't. 

I wasn't trying to suggest that it's justifiable. I outright said it's still wrong do be doing what he's doing. I just object to the notion that he has killed innocent people off the battlefield. Precisely because his world view would give him basically nothing to motivate him to do so.

5 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Sorry about that, haven't finished Azure Moon, so I am operating with incomplete information. As I said, I don't consider it a problem to kill soldiers during a war, it is kind of what you do when you are at war. The killing children thing just confused me about what he could possibly mean, but if it is actually referring to child soldiers, of course, it didn't have a choice, and it is a good thing that he feels bad about it. The thing is that I just care about Edelgard a lot and it is very hard to be objective when Dimitri wants to do horrible things to her based on a crime she didn't even commit. But that is because I know Edelgard is innocent of the tragedy of Duskur, Dimitri doesn't have the misinformation so his reaction does make sense. I also have a tendency to be very disapproving of the whole vengeance is justice thing in general, it is it is a very self-destructive principle in general . And even if Dimitri was successful in achieving his revenge, this wouldn't solve his personal issues and possibly would add even more personal guilt of his conscience once he found out the truth. I think Dimitri did the right thing in the end, it isn't really his fault that Edelgard is so stubborn and essentially refuses to be spared, but she did go out on our own terms in the end (I don't think Edelgard wanted to Dimitri with a dagger, it is more likely that she intended to force him to take her life as she by this point wanted to die, it is consistent with Edelgard's behaviour when defeated on other routes where she begs for Byleth to kill her)

At the end of the day I do consider Dimitri a great character and the fact that he and Edelgard used to be so close only to be driven apart by their personal trauma and the conflict is the true mark of a tragedy. While I would wish that there was a route where both Dimitri and Edelgard survive and managed to reconcile the differences, maybe that would undermine the tragedy. What would have actually happened if Edelgard would never actually accepted Dimitri's offer of mercy? 

Given how strong he is I can imagine he absolutely does have a choice. Every playable character in the game kills people, probably the best way of distinguishing mad Dimitri for typical soldier is that he has absolutely no predilection towards mercy. If he got accosted by a group of street urchins armed with knives that he could easily disarm his reaction wouldn't be to end things non lethality. It would be open season on human hunting.

5 hours ago, eclipse said:

Now his lack of backstory makes me even more annoyed.  We have someone who could've given a lot of insight into Fodlan/Almyran culture, and instead he's eternally thankful to Rhea.

I feel Nader is more of wasted potential on that front. Cyril gives us a very specific thing coming from a very bias perspective (by that I mean his sordid opinion of Almayra). It's the game's job to either counter or reinforce that perspective at some point.  Claude is defined by his biracial aspect when it comes to these cultures, but Nader is the Almyran character that should run counter to Cyril. If Cyril was a child soldier, if Almyran's really do invade Fodlan "for fun" then Nader is the character to either confirm, deny or contextualize these assertions. But instead he shows up and just vanishes. I mean, maybe he hangs around the monastery, but as far as the actual plot is concerned he ceases to exist after his FMV and the whole Almyran assistance could literally be cut...because it is literally cut in Silver Snow and absolutely nothing changes. Slightly baffled at no point in the post game DLC they didn't bother to make Nader playable and throw a few supports on him that would give us more of an insight into his society.

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8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I wasn't trying to suggest that it's justifiable. I outright said it's still wrong do be doing what he's doing. I just object to the notion that he has killed innocent people off the battlefield. Precisely because his world view would give him basically nothing to motivate him to do so.

Given how strong he is I can imagine he absolutely does have a choice. Every playable character in the game kills people, probably the best way of distinguishing mad Dimitri for typical soldier is that he has absolutely no predilection towards mercy. If he got accosted by a group of street urchins armed with knives that he could easily disarm his reaction wouldn't be to end things non lethality. It would be open season on human hunting.

I feel Nader is more of wasted potential on that front. Cyril gives us a very specific thing coming from a very bias perspective (by that I mean his sordid opinion of Almayra). It's the game's job to either counter or reinforce that perspective at some point.  Claude is defined by his biracial aspect when it comes to these cultures, but Nader is the Almyran character that should run counter to Cyril. If Cyril was a child soldier, if Almyran's really do invade Fodlan "for fun" then Nader is the character to either confirm, deny or contextualize these assertions. But instead he shows up and just vanishes. I mean, maybe he hangs around the monastery, but as far as the actual plot is concerned he ceases to exist after his FMV and the whole Almyran assistance could literally be cut...because it is literally cut in Silver Snow and absolutely nothing changes. Slightly baffled at no point in the post game DLC they didn't bother to make Nader playable and throw a few supports on him that would give us more of an insight into his society.

Never said Dimitri was innocent, but Dimitri as a whole isn't purely evil. The boar however is an extremely dangerous killing machine. This actually seems somewhat similar as with Jeritza and the Death Knight, some kind of split personality where one of them is extremely violent and enjoys slaughter. In both of these cases, the creation of this second personality came at a result of trauma. Dimitri does however seem to hate himself for this, but overall I would say that he is more morally questionable than Edelgard, however strange that may sound. The number of casualties isn't really what is important, but their attitude towards killing. For all of her faults Edelgard doesn't enjoy warfare and killing, she only does what she believes to be necessary and while she can be cold at times. She is probably this way because she is steeling herself and suppressing her emotions to be able to do what she thinks needs to be done despite hating every moment of it. Edelgard is also capable of showing mercy when she thinks it is appropriate. I don't fully know yet what is true about Dimitri, but if it truly does hate himself for his actions than that is actually something he has in common with Edelgard. 

As for why the Almyrans do invade Fodlan, Edelgard actually mentions something interesting about this (see Edelgard's insurmountable paralogue). She does basically imply that the reason that Almyra and Fodlan are often at war is that Almyra doesn't follow the goddess and have very different customs, which due to the Church of Seiros, the people in Fodlan has very little respect for. So I think it is most likely some kind of holy war due to the lack of respect they have been shown by Rhea and her church in the past, maybe she tried a forceful conversion or something. Of course, Edelgard could be wrong, but it is the most sensible explanation I have seen so far. Edelgard seeks to end this stability and establish diplomatic relations with Almyra, she might have started one war, but if successful, this could prevent many other wars in the future.

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6 hours ago, Crysta said:

If you think child soldiers with weaponry are a genuine threat to boar prince Dimitri and he's justified in slaughtering them, then you do you, I guess. He doesn't think he was.

I mean... this is basically Fleche, right? Gameplay aside for a second, a stab to the heart is a stab to the heart. It makes it in, it's lethal, regardless of whom it's coming from. See also: Byleth dying to one hit from Kostas, when they should have survived several.

It's possible he wantonly killed innocent kids, but if it was a case like Fleche, he was definitely justified in fighting back. Maybe he could've stopped his attackers non-lethally, but didn't have the self-control to, and "let the boar take over", so to speak. One's pre-formed opinions on Dimitri are likely to "fill in the gaps", regarding details that were never made explicit. 

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3 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I mean... this is basically Fleche, right? Gameplay aside for a second, a stab to the heart is a stab to the heart. It makes it in, it's lethal, regardless of whom it's coming from. See also: Byleth dying to one hit from Kostas, when they should have survived several.

It's possible he wantonly killed innocent kids, but if it was a case like Fleche, he was definitely justified in fighting back. Maybe he could've stopped his attackers non-lethally, but didn't have the self-control to, and "let the boar take over", so to speak. One's pre-formed opinions on Dimitri are likely to "fill in the gaps", regarding details that were never made explicit. 

Fleche was the girl who is basically a Imperial Flayn, right? That's a shame, she was a nice girl. Dimitri better have a really good reason for this, otherwise it doesn't look good. I don't remember if she died in crimson flower, but her brother did. 

Rest in peace. Brave soldiers of the Adrestian Empire

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20 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I mean... this is basically Fleche, right? Gameplay aside for a second, a stab to the heart is a stab to the heart. It makes it in, it's lethal, regardless of whom it's coming from. See also: Byleth dying to one hit from Kostas, when they should have survived several.

It's possible he wantonly killed innocent kids, but if it was a case like Fleche, he was definitely justified in fighting back. Maybe he could've stopped his attackers non-lethally, but didn't have the self-control to, and "let the boar take over", so to speak. One's pre-formed opinions on Dimitri are likely to "fill in the gaps", regarding details that were never made explicit. 

Preeeetty sure she didn't stab him in the heart. That's kind of lethal and I don't recall it being considered a serious injury. He was incapacitated, but little else because she... well, couldn't manage that.

He is justified in fighting back, but I can't say I'm comfortable saying outright butchering them is justified; there is a reason behind the added guilt, and a difference between fighting a teenager and a well-knowing full grown adult.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I think Fleche deserved more of a second chance than Dimitri. And he'd probably agree, considering he was in the very same state not one minute before she emerged. But whatever, she's crazed and dangerous and responsible for her own behavior. As was he.

Edited by Crysta

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6 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Preeeetty sure she didn't stab him in the heart. That's kind of lethal and I don't recall it being considered a serious injury.

He is justified in fighting back, but I can't say I'm comfortable saying outright butchering them is justified; there is a reason behind the added guilt, and a difference between fighting a teenager and a well-knowing full grown adult.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I think Fleche deserved more of a second chance than Dimitri. And he'd probably agree, considering he was in the very same state not one minute before she emerged. But whatever, she's crazed and dangerous and responsible for her own behavior. As was he.

Didn't Dimitri also try to torture Randolph? Let me guess, this happened immediately before the scene with Fleche trying to stab him. Definitely gives her the motivation to do so. War is war and people die in war, so I guess it isn't fair to blame either. At least Dimitri realises that he often goes too far. Torture, however, does cross a line for me. But I am willing to forgive mostly anything. If a persons change their ways

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8 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Didn't Dimitri also try to torture Randolph? Let me guess, this happened immediately before the scene with Fleche trying to stab him. Definitely gives her the motivation to do so. War is war and people die in war, so I guess it isn't fair to blame either. At least Dimitri realises that he often goes too far. Torture, however, does cross a line for me. But I am willing to forgive mostly anything. If a persons change their ways

Nah it happens some time after. She infiltrates the army as a servant with Dimitri's permission (he's unaware she's Randolph's sister) and she sneaks up on him with a stabby stab after battle. She, uh, makes it pretty clear that's why she wants to kill him right before (or after?) she does the deed.

But Randolph is an example showing how there's a pretty big spectrum of gray between letting someone adamant about killing you murder your face and killing them, even if it was only because Dimitri didn't want to make his death quick.

EDIT: Funnily enough, in contrast, CF Fleche takes Randolph's death remarkably well.

Edited by Crysta

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4 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Nah it happens some time after. She infiltrates the army as a servant with Dimitri's permission (he's unaware she's Randolph's sister) and she sneaks up on him with a stabby stab after battle. She, uh, makes it pretty clear that's why she wants to kill him right before (or after?) she does the deed.

But Randolph is an example showing how there's a pretty big spectrum of gray between letting someone adamant about killing you murder your face and killing them, even if it was only because Dimitri didn't want to make his death quick.

And what did Randolph do to make Dimitri not want to give him a quick death? I don't like it when anyone tries to justify causing needless suffering, killing is one thing, but I will not justify torture, especially not for reasons as petty as revenge. Of course, someone has a right to defend himself if attacked, maybe even kill the assailant if necessary, but I don't think going any further than that is justified. I don't think Edelgard ever does this, even her killing of Dimitri was quick and to the point, she never made it personal. At least not in crimson flower, if she does this elsewhere I am unaware of it, but I wouldn't think so, no matter how desperate she gets, Edelgard is Edelgard and killing and torturing for personal reasons isn't something she does.

The thing is, Randolph and Fleche does come across as good people in crimson flower. I have a hard time imagining that this level of vindictiveness towards them is necessary, they are just soldiers. Kill them if necessary, but don't take it personally.

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8 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

And what did Randolph do to make Dimitri not want to give him a quick death? I don't like it when anyone tries to justify causing needless suffering, killing is one thing, but I will not justify torture, especially not for reasons as petty as revenge. Of course, someone has a right to defend himself if attacked, maybe even kill the assailant if necessary, but I don't think going any further than that is justified. I don't think Edelgard ever does this, even her killing of Dimitri was quick and to the point, she never made it personal. At least not in crimson flower, if she does this elsewhere I am unaware of it, but I wouldn't think so, no matter how desperate she gets, Edelgard is Edelgard and killing and torturing for personal reasons isn't something she does.

The thing is, Randolph and Fleche does come across as good people in crimson flower. I have a hard time imagining that this level of vindictiveness towards them is necessary, they are just soldiers. Kill them if necessary, but don't take it personally.

Be an Imperial general, more or less. I think last time we went into this topic, there were users who didn't like that he begged for his life and thought it was cowardly. Since he was a hypocrite, it was less sympathetic, I guess?

Honestly it would have been fine with him behind killed on the battlefield. That kind of comes with the job. Fleche is a part of the army, even if she's too young to be on the front lines, but I don't think she was capable of the same harm Randolph was.

Well, at least in regard to Dimitri himself. She still manages to kill a plot important character.

 

Edited by Crysta

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3 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Be an Imperial general, more or less. I think last time we went into this topic, there were users who didn't like that he begged for his life and thought it was cowardly. Since he was a hypocrite, it was less sympathetic, I guess?

Honestly it would have been fine with him behind killed on the battlefield. That kind of comes with the job. Fleche is a part of the army, even if she's too young to be on the front lines, but I don't think she was capable of the same harm Randolph was.

 

 

I think most people would beg for their lives, I think it is more impressive when they don't, but I wouldn't blame them for it. How was that hypocritical? Not everyone can be as valiant as Edelgard in the face of death, insisting to be killed to end the war quicker is actually pretty selfless. I didn't see Dimitri beg for his life either, but these two are exceptional. I am not sure how Claude handles death as we never killed him. 

I do kind of consider it somewhat hypocritical that some people blame Edelgard for killing Flayn and Seteth (something that you don't have to do, you can in fact spare them) when they let Dimitri off the hook for Fleche and Randolph, it is basically the same thing. I kind of see it like this. It is war, people will die, it is inevitable.

I think that one major difference between Edelgard and Dimitri is that Edelgard is pretty good at separating her personal feelings from her duty as a monarch, while for Dimitri. He seems to take everything personally. 

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He does get better. I just think Fleche also deserved the chance to get better. But yes, at their lowest points, Dimitri is arguably worse than Edelgard. At the very least, he's more cruel.

Do people really get mad at Edelgard for killing Flayn and Seteth? I haven't heard that one.

As for Claude versus death, I think trying to wriggle out of it is his first option like it is in CF, but he's not a begging guy. In AM, if Judith and Hilda fall in his map, "hidden soldiers" spring up and he starts to move from his spot to kill them. When he dies, he tells Byleth/Dimitri to retreat before he flops over. It's pretty sad. Then you have to restart.

Edited by Crysta

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5 minutes ago, Crysta said:

He does get better. I just think Fleche also deserved the chance to get better. But yes, at their lowest points, Dimitri is arguably worse than Edelgard. At the very least, he's more cruel.

Do people really get mad at Edelgard for killing Flayn and Seteth? I haven't heard that one.

As for Claude versus death, I think trying to wriggle out of it is his first option like it is in CF, but he's not a begging guy. In AM, if Judith and Hilda fall in his map, "hidden soldiers" spring up and he starts to move from his spot to kill them. When he dies, he tells Byleth/Dimitri to retreat before he flops over. It's pretty sad. Then you have to restart.

Yeah, Claude in CF came across more like bargaining than begging to me. He was trying to show them that there's a real benefit to them if they let him live (and considering they still have to fight Slither after the credits, they may need it).

As for Randolph, what bothered me about his "begging for his life" was that rumors must have been going around about Dimitri's savagery. What made him think telling the madman who's detailing how he'll torture him that he has family was a good idea? If Dimitri hadn't turned later he might've gone after them out of spite!

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12 minutes ago, Crysta said:

He does get better. I just think Fleche also deserved the chance to get better. But yes, at their lowest points, Dimitri is arguably worse than Edelgard. At the very least, he's more cruel.

Do people really get mad at Edelgard for killing Flayn and Seteth? I haven't heard that one.

As for Claude versus death, I think trying to wriggle out of it is his first option like it is in CF, but he's not a begging guy. In AM, if Judith and Hilda fall in his map, "hidden soldiers" spring up and he starts to move from his spot to kill them. When he dies, he tells Byleth/Dimitri to retreat before he flops over. It's pretty sad. Then you have to restart.

Well, I did participate in a lot of arguments on Gamefaqs and one common argument against Edelgard is that she apparently is genocidal because she killed Flayn, Seteth and Rhea and making their race extinct. But killing Flayn and Seteth is optional and Edelgard obviously tolerates you sparing them, so I would argue that this is clearly not a goal of hers, she just don't want the Dragons to rule over humanity. Not to mention that she believes Byleth to be one of Rhea's people, and Edelgard is very attached to Byleth and don't seem to care about their potential Dragon Heritage. Granted, this is the same board that also takes the "Edelgard burned Bernadetta" thing way too seriously. Here I quickly learned that this claim is largely false. I don't trust claims I read on Gamefaqs any more as a result, I find people on this board far more reliable.

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I like to put down something The manifest was most likely a note saying surrender or die I mean guys even if the church surrendered she still would have attacked the kingdom and the alliance she wanted to unify the continent she didn't want separate governments The game is a message about how war is evil virtually none of the lords are good people at all we're not supposed to be cheering for any of them really we're just supposed to be going through the motions because in the very end all of them end up achieving peace so that none of them are better than the other

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28 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Well, I did participate in a lot of arguments on Gamefaqs and one common argument against Edelgard is that she apparently is genocidal because she killed Flayn, Seteth and Rhea and making their race extinct. But killing Flayn and Seteth is optional and Edelgard obviously tolerates you sparing them, so I would argue that this is clearly not a goal of hers, she just don't want the Dragons to rule over humanity. Not to mention that she believes Byleth to be one of Rhea's people, and Edelgard is very attached to Byleth and don't seem to care about their potential Dragon Heritage. Granted, this is the same board that also takes the "Edelgard burned Bernadetta" thing way too seriously. Here I quickly learned that this claim is largely false. I don't trust claims I read on Gamefaqs any more as a result, I find people on this board far more reliable.

You can actually READ GameFAQs? After a solid month of a dozen "Edelgard vs Rhea" topics a DAY, I had a very mild breakdown and quit the whole site. You must have the patience of a saint.

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4 minutes ago, Sid Starkiller said:

You can actually READ GameFAQs? After a solid month of a dozen "Edelgard vs Rhea" topics a DAY, I had a very mild breakdown and quit the whole site. You must have the patience of a saint.

Well, I did a quick within a week and joined this site instead. I was recommended this one by a friend of mine

 

13 minutes ago, jawaunw said:

I like to put down something The manifest was most likely a note saying surrender or die I mean guys even if the church surrendered she still would have attacked the kingdom and the alliance she wanted to unify the continent she didn't want separate governments The game is a message about how war is evil virtually none of the lords are good people at all we're not supposed to be cheering for any of them really we're just supposed to be going through the motions because in the very end all of them end up achieving peace so that none of them are better than the other

I actually read the game as saying the complete opposite, all of the Lords are good people, they are just also flawed. Edelgard shows that there are humanity in conquerors and that they can believe what they are doing is right and that they are not necessarily motivated by gaining personal power. Dimitri is ultimately a good guy brought low by his emotional trauma and the need to find a scapegoat to be able to handle it, ultimately being able to overcome his trauma and becoming a better person. I actually have trouble finding much flaw with Claude at all, he is the schemer but a good-natured one. I have heard the argument that the game is about that, even in a time of war and death that your ties to other people is still the most important.

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1 minute ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Well, I did a quick within a week and joined this site instead. I was recommended this one by a friend of mine

 

I actually read the game as saying the complete opposite, all of the Lords are good people, they are just also flawed. Edelgard shows that there are humanity in conquerors and that they can believe what they are doing is right and that they are not necessarily motivated by gaining personal power. Dimitri is ultimately a good guy brought low by his emotional trauma and the need to find a scapegoat to be able to handle it, ultimately being able to overcome his trauma and becoming a better person. I actually have trouble finding much flaw with Claude at all, he is the schemer but a good-natured one. I have heard the argument that the game is about that, even in a time of war and death that your ties to other people is still the most important.

I won't lie it sounds better than what I said but I'm also pretty nihilistic so that may be where most of it's coming from

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