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omegaxis1

The True Tragedy of Three Houses

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I'm not quoting people as I'm on mobile and that would take a lot of work but point by point of what I remember:

Being an unreliable narrator doesn't mean you're a liar. It means your perception of events is flawed for some reason and as such cannot be taken as unequivocal truth. We're talking about a guy who puts personal blame on himself for deaths that he had nothing to do with/ couldn't stop, and who hears the voices of the spirits of dead loved ones in his head, on top of vehemently hating himself. He is not a reliable narrator, but that doesn't mean he lied about anything.

Fleche managed to incapacitate Dimitri in one strike after also killing the person who went to block the blow. Maybe she didn't go for the heart, but if that had hit Dimitri full on, he would've died. Killing child soldiers is always a sad thing, but kids are just as capable of stabbing you as anyone else and if you don't agree, I suggest you look up real world records of child soldiers and what happens to them in war. Also can we just point out that child soldiers reflects far worse on the side using them than the side that has to kill them to keep from dying. Dimitri may have been strong enough to choose not to kill them according to some people, but that's really not how battle works. It's why I have such an issue with the Remire chapter. Though at least someone (I forget who) does point out that taking them out non lethally is next to impossible...

Dimitri went after Randolph so hard because, in his mind, Randolph is much like him. It doesn't matter that he was a soldier just following orders, he still butchered people. To make matters worse, to Dimitri he's a hypocrite who doesn't accept his own wrongdoings while simultaneously condemning Dimitri. In Dimitri's twisted view at this time, Randolph is just as unforgivable as he is, and as such he's only doing what the both of them deserve. Is it wrong? Yes. The game does not try to portray this as okay.

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4 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

As for why the Almyrans do invade Fodlan, Edelgard actually mentions something interesting about this (see Edelgard's insurmountable paralogue). She does basically imply that the reason that Almyra and Fodlan are often at war is that Almyra doesn't follow the goddess and have very different customs, which due to the Church of Seiros, the people in Fodlan has very little respect for. So I think it is most likely some kind of holy war due to the lack of respect they have been shown by Rhea and her church in the past, maybe she tried a forceful conversion or something. Of course, Edelgard could be wrong, but it is the most sensible explanation I have seen so far. Edelgard seeks to end this stability and establish diplomatic relations with Almyra, she might have started one war, but if successful, this could prevent many other wars in the future.

So you suggest they're militant atheists on a crusade to spread a lack of belief across the world...that would be interesting. Really though I think that line was to show why Fodlan's don't respect Almyrians. It doesn't really give us any insight into the Almyrin's viewpoint of Fodlan (though in that paralogue in particular we can summarize that Nader was probably trying to gain vengeance for Claude, be he alive or dead, funny how an entire invasion from an out of context foreign power is pushed into a paralogue. Nah Edelgard, it's fine, you can deal with that army of mongols next month, I want to go shopping today).

Edited by Jotari

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2 hours ago, jawaunw said:

I like to put down something The manifest was most likely a note saying surrender or die I mean guys even if the church surrendered she still would have attacked the kingdom and the alliance she wanted to unify the continent she didn't want separate governments

The manifestos were stated to be used to expose the dark side of the church as well as the foul practices of the Kingdom and Alliance. Whether Edelgard would have actually gone after the two nations had they simply defeated the Church, we never find out. Cause the thing is that in every route, Edelgard doesn't ever declare war against the other nations, only the Church. The Kingdom and Alliance simply get involved in some way or another. In non-CF routes, Cornelia performs her coup and makes the Dukedom join the Empire. 

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If one of the fault of the church is that it made the Kingdom and the Alliance exist, then the Kingdom and Alliance have a pretty big reason to feel threatened. The person lamenting taht the empire has been split is totally not going to eventually try to reunite it.

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22 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Well, Dimitri admitted that he killed kids. I mean, with his strength and skill, does killing kids, even if they are armed, really seem justified? 

I would not say that he has "logic" in the way you are thinking. His "logic" is warped in that he deems ANYONE that is, in HIS view, "unworthy" of life. Byleth once tried to reason out that bandits might just be people that are desperate for some food or have some good reason. Dimitri immediately snaps at him.

Because in his reality, everyone that kills or is trying to kill, is absolutely unforgivable.

It's rather interesting how in this route, Felix is rather adamant in wanting Dimitri back, in the first thing he tells Byleth is that they have to try and get Dimitri back to normal. 

Right. Dimitri confessed that he killed children. Children. 

Edit: As for Fleche she didn't even really do that much harm towards Dimitri due to his good amour protection and Felix's Father taking most of the hit. I assume that most of the other kids would've had the same experience as not even Edelgard's dagger could do much effect. Dimitri was protected well. 

Just Dimitri VS Children Soldiers ? They wouldn't of had a chance in hell. Is it justified ? I say no. 

 

Edited by Eurydice

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47 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

If one of the fault of the church is that it made the Kingdom and the Alliance exist, then the Kingdom and Alliance have a pretty big reason to feel threatened. The person lamenting taht the empire has been split is totally not going to eventually try to reunite it.

Again, the choice was taken out of their hands. 

The brilliance I like about Edelgard declaring the war only against the Church is that it prevents the Alliance and Faerghus from being totally united. If she declared war against all three, then they would unite against her. But by going only against the Church, those in the Kingdom and Alliance that don't like the Church have reason to split and side with the Empire. 

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12 hours ago, Crysta said:

Does he have any reason to lie?

It's not whether or not he has a reason to lie.  It's whether or not his interpretation of events is reliable.  Kind of like asking me to describe some of the instances in my childhood.

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

I feel Nader is more of wasted potential on that front. Cyril gives us a very specific thing coming from a very bias perspective (by that I mean his sordid opinion of Almayra). It's the game's job to either counter or reinforce that perspective at some point.  Claude is defined by his biracial aspect when it comes to these cultures, but Nader is the Almyran character that should run counter to Cyril. If Cyril was a child soldier, if Almyran's really do invade Fodlan "for fun" then Nader is the character to either confirm, deny or contextualize these assertions. But instead he shows up and just vanishes. I mean, maybe he hangs around the monastery, but as far as the actual plot is concerned he ceases to exist after his FMV and the whole Almyran assistance could literally be cut...because it is literally cut in Silver Snow and absolutely nothing changes. Slightly baffled at no point in the post game DLC they didn't bother to make Nader playable and throw a few supports on him that would give us more of an insight into his society.

But that would mean the writers would have to build Almyra properly!  They've shown they can do it with Fodlan, but I don't know how much thought went beyond its borders.

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1 minute ago, eclipse said:

It's not whether or not he has a reason to lie.  It's whether or not his interpretation of events is reliable.  Kind of like asking me to describe some of the instances in my childhood.

But that would mean the writers would have to build Almyra properly!  They've shown they can do it with Fodlan, but I don't know how much thought went beyond its borders.

On the one hand I kind of like how what lies beyond Fodlan's borders is shrouded in mystery. That's kind of how I expect real life premodern societies viewed each other. Simple putting two islands on the map that are named but then never in anyway referred to (outside of some item flavor text) is really cool! It gives a sense of a bigger world. If Almyra was just a few paralogue of barbarian invasions then that'd be fine, but it's not, Claude is half Almyran and Almyra actually invades and involves itself in the happenings of Fodlan, yet they're in no way seen as an actual faction in this war. The problem is they half ass it. Zero ass, cool detail, full ass wow we get two continents! But half ass it and it suddenly becomes what is even the point?

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15 minutes ago, Jotari said:

On the one hand I kind of like how what lies beyond Fodlan's borders is shrouded in mystery. That's kind of how I expect real life premodern societies viewed each other. Simple putting two islands on the map that are named but then never in anyway referred to (outside of some item flavor text) is really cool! It gives a sense of a bigger world. If Almyra was just a few paralogue of barbarian invasions then that'd be fine, but it's not, Claude is half Almyran and Almyra actually invades and involves itself in the happenings of Fodlan, yet they're in no way seen as an actual faction in this war. The problem is they half ass it. Zero ass, cool detail, full ass wow we get two continents! But half ass it and it suddenly becomes what is even the point?

Our sources for Almyran anything are a kid who likes Fodlan better, someone who's mixed race, and that one guy that has no other bearing on the story.  Since our sources are so spotty, we can only take a guess as to what happens there. . .much like what happens when you busy yourself with your own business, and forget about the happenings around you!

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17 minutes ago, Jotari said:

On the one hand I kind of like how what lies beyond Fodlan's borders is shrouded in mystery. That's kind of how I expect real life premodern societies viewed each other. Simple putting two islands on the map that are named but then never in anyway referred to (outside of some item flavor text) is really cool! It gives a sense of a bigger world. If Almyra was just a few paralogue of barbarian invasions then that'd be fine, but it's not, Claude is half Almyran and Almyra actually invades and involves itself in the happenings of Fodlan, yet they're in no way seen as an actual faction in this war. The problem is they half ass it. Zero ass, cool detail, full ass wow we get two continents! But half ass it and it suddenly becomes what is even the point?

It's to represent how closed off Fodlan is. The more closed off you are, the less you truly know and understand the culture of the other continents. How much do we understand of the people of Duscur, Briggid, Dagda, and Almyra? Very little, in fact. 

The more things remained as is, the less things would work out.

For one thing, if Claude was really open about his heritage, do you think ANYONE would allow him to be the heir of House Riegan? Would people accept him despite being half-Almyran? No. 

Claude is the ONLY foreigner that has a position of power. 

People think that Cyril and Shamir are proof that the Church and Fodlan aren't racists, or that there are some foods from other places, but that's now how it actually works. Cyril is a servant boy (actually stated to be Rhea's servant in the JP version) and Shamir is a mercenary that's indebted to the Church for taking her in. But she's overall working for the Church. Unless there's an actual exchange of cultures, actual effort in closing the gaps, and allowing more equal rights, that's how you prevent racism. Thing about Ingrid is that she's racist even in her Dedue supports at the end. All she does is simply make Dedue not be like the other Duscur people. That's singling that one guy out of the group. 

 

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4 hours ago, Jotari said:

So you suggest they're militant atheists on a crusade to spread a lack of belief across the world...that would be interesting. Really though I think that line was to show why Fodlan's don't respect Almyrians. It doesn't really give us any insight into the Almyrin's viewpoint of Fodlan (though in that paralogue in particular we can summarize that Nader was probably trying to gain vengeance for Claude, be he alive or dead, funny how an entire invasion from an out of context foreign power is pushed into a paralogue. Nah Edelgard, it's fine, you can deal with that army of mongols next month, I want to go shopping today).

Not as much militant atheists as followers of another creed and religion. Almyra does strike me as following this world's equivalent of Islam to Fodlan's Christianity, these two were frequently at war historically in the real world. So I am expecting something similar to the Crusades when it comes to the reasons Almyra invades. Of course this is all speculation, and I have no clue what their religion actually is, they could be militant atheists from all I know. 

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1 minute ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Not as much militant atheists as followers of another creed and religion. Almyra does strike me as following this world's equivalent of Islam to Fodlan's Christianity, these two were frequently at war historically in the real world. So I am expecting something similar to the Crusades when it comes to the reasons Almyra invades. Of course this is all speculation, and I have no clue what their religion actually is, they could be militant atheists from all I know. 

Let's NOT use Islamic religion in discussion. There's a sensitivity toward that due to IRL problems people face today.

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3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Let's NOT use Islamic religion in discussion. There's a sensitivity toward that due to IRL problems people face today.

I know, but it is largely irrelevant to this discussion, the context during the mediaeval era was different from what it was today, at that time, the Islamic nations were quite advanced due to the rediscovery of philosophy from ancient greece, it is just that it is this culture from this specific time period that Almyra really reminds me of. I was hoping people could stay civil as they have done such a good job of that so far

I think the number one most memorable thing with Almyra in the game is a ridiculous overuse of wyverns. It is actually quite silly how many wyvern riders they have been their armies. That would be an incredibly difficult army to face in real life, I suspect that either Almyra has a ridiculous number of wyverns on that continent, or they holds special significance in that culture. Even Claude's unique classes are wyvern based to represent his heritage. 

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12 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I know, but it is largely irrelevant to this discussion, the context during the mediaeval era was different from what it was today, at that time, the Islamic nations were quite advanced due to the rediscovery of philosophy from ancient greece, it is just that it is this culture from this specific time period that Almyra really reminds me of. I was hoping people could stay civil as they have done such a good job of that so far

I think the number one most memorable thing with Almyra in the game is a ridiculous overuse of wyverns. It is actually quite silly how many wyvern riders they have been their armies. That would be an incredibly difficult army to face in real life, I suspect that either Almyra has a ridiculous number of wyverns on that continent, or they holds special significance in that culture. Even Claude's unique classes are wyvern based to represent his heritage. 

Well Claude does say that taming wyverns is considered a rite of passage in Almyra, so of course all the most important Almyrans (meaning the named ones) get them.

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Was Rhea/Seiros and Sothis' influence always historically limited to Fodlan? Even before the War of Liberation? When the goddess fell to this earth, did she only concern herself with the Fodlan peninsula? Everywhere else just got on with their own histories? It's a bit odd that the Agarthans never reached out to any of the many states and principalities outside Fodlan, or tried to migrate there. With their advanced technologies, you'd think they'd be welcomed. 

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1 hour ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

Was Rhea/Seiros and Sothis' influence always historically limited to Fodlan? Even before the War of Liberation? When the goddess fell to this earth, did she only concern herself with the Fodlan peninsula? Everywhere else just got on with their own histories? It's a bit odd that the Agarthans never reached out to any of the many states and principalities outside Fodlan, or tried to migrate there. With their advanced technologies, you'd think they'd be welcomed. 

If you take out what Dimitri joined with Rhea for in Crimson Flower, then it seems like a case where a king was just defending his nation from the invading Empire. That logic can be applied to the Agarthans in this case.

Why should the Agarthans leave their land and homes because the Nabateans moved in? 

In the end, the concept of pride in oneself and ones home is something that will make someone be unwilling to ask for help from others, let alone try and just up and leave.

Also, given how the Almyrans are in present Fodlan, it's unlikely that they would have the advanced tech that Agarthans have, so they are primitive. Unlikely that they could match against Nabateans. 

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9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

If you take out what Dimitri joined with Rhea for in Crimson Flower, then it seems like a case where a king was just defending his nation from the invading Empire. That logic can be applied to the Agarthans in this case.

Why should the Agarthans leave their land and homes because the Nabateans moved in? 

In the end, the concept of pride in oneself and ones home is something that will make someone be unwilling to ask for help from others, let alone try and just up and leave.

Also, given how the Almyrans are in present Fodlan, it's unlikely that they would have the advanced tech that Agarthans have, so they are primitive. Unlikely that they could match against Nabateans. 

Honestly I find it hard to really feel for the Agarthans when their response to fearing Sothis will smite them for their hubris and violence upon the land was to apparently nuke their own country to try and kill her alongside the Nabateans.

And yeah the advanced tech came from the Nabateans who shared it with the Agarthans, who then advanced it even further; see how Rhea's Golems are rather antiquated vs the Futuristic look of the Titanus the Agarthans use, definitely not something available to the proto-Almyrans or whatever.

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34 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

Honestly I find it hard to really feel for the Agarthans when their response to fearing Sothis will smite them for their hubris and violence upon the land was to apparently nuke their own country to try and kill her alongside the Nabateans.

And yeah the advanced tech came from the Nabateans who shared it with the Agarthans, who then advanced it even further; see how Rhea's Golems are rather antiquated vs the Futuristic look of the Titanus the Agarthans use, definitely not something available to the proto-Almyrans or whatever.

It's questionable on how much knowledge the Nabateans really gave. Regardless of the case, the point remains is that the Agarthans feared Sothis and simply felt the need to protect themselves against her. Given how they seem to have the forbidden Zahras spell that only Sothis apparently could escape from, and how the ruins that Chapter 11 happened had the Crest of Flames imprinted on it, it seems like there's been some effort in trying to defeat Sothis. 

But yeah, they literally destroyed four lands and still that did not do anything against Sothis. But apparently this is the type of devastation that was wrought that forced Sothis to expend all her power to heal. 

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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

It's questionable on how much knowledge the Nabateans really gave. Regardless of the case, the point remains is that the Agarthans feared Sothis and simply felt the need to protect themselves against her. Given how they seem to have the forbidden Zahras spell that only Sothis apparently could escape from, and how the ruins that Chapter 11 happened had the Crest of Flames imprinted on it, it seems like there's been some effort in trying to defeat Sothis. 

But yeah, they literally destroyed four lands and still that did not do anything against Sothis. But apparently this is the type of devastation that was wrought that forced Sothis to expend all her power to heal. 

The questionable aspect is fair, given that both sides we know are quite biased, just that there IS basis in Rhea's statement that we can actually see; note how the Holy Tomb in Chapter 11 is stated to have tech that the rest of the cast were surprised to see.

The Zahras thing is so???? Like, it never gets brought up again despite literally being an insta-kill spell. Like, what the fuck game lmao. However I find it hard to believe that they used that against Solon, given that Sothis breaks Byleth out of it. If they used it before and Sothis was brought back, wouldn't they know it wouldn't work?

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15 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

It's questionable on how much knowledge the Nabateans really gave. Regardless of the case, the point remains is that the Agarthans feared Sothis and simply felt the need to protect themselves against her. Given how they seem to have the forbidden Zahras spell that only Sothis apparently could escape from, and how the ruins that Chapter 11 happened had the Crest of Flames imprinted on it, it seems like there's been some effort in trying to defeat Sothis. 

But yeah, they literally destroyed four lands and still that did not do anything against Sothis. But apparently this is the type of devastation that was wrought that forced Sothis to expend all her power to heal. 

Things like this makes me wonder if Sothis really was a goddess or just a very powerful dragon

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10 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

The questionable aspect is fair, given that both sides we know are quite biased, just that there IS basis in Rhea's statement that we can actually see; note how the Holy Tomb in Chapter 11 is stated to have tech that the rest of the cast were surprised to see.

What is noted is that there's a mechanism to the Holy Tomb, and how it links to the Red Canyon as well. You can consider that advanced tech, sure, but based on what's seen, it's likely that it's like the pyramids. 

10 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

The Zahras thing is so???? Like, it never gets brought up again despite literally being an insta-kill spell. Like, what the fuck game lmao. However I find it hard to believe that they used that against Solon, given that Sothis breaks Byleth out of it. If they used it before and Sothis was brought back, wouldn't they know it wouldn't work?

Solon knew that there was some connection to Sothis due to how Byleth can wield the Sword of the Creator, but didn't realize that Byleth would actually be the incarnation of Sothis herself until Byleth breaks free from Zahras. 

If you go into the etymology of Sothis and the connections to the lores, to the point of how there's a connection of Sothis to Tiamat from Babylonia myths. Depending on how much you can draw out from that, you could presume that Sothis is likely neither a a creature of benevolence (as Rhea sees her) nor malevolence (how the Agarthans see her). 

This basically shows how Rhea and the Agarthans also were trapped under their own reality.

Rhea tries to talk as if the Agarthans were entirely to blame, and how the age when Sothis ruled was a truly golden one. But was it? From Rhea's perspective, it was. But the Agarthans might not have actually been happy, but fearful of Sothis and her powers.

Just now, Darkmoon6789 said:

Things like this makes me wonder if Sothis really was a goddess or just a very powerful dragon

Based on what's shown, the latter. In the FE universe, there are very few entities that are true gods, while the rest are simply entities that bear power rivaling that of true gods. 

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5 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

For one thing, if Claude was really open about his heritage, do you think ANYONE would allow him to be the heir of House Riegan? Would people accept him despite being half-Almyran? No. 

Its actually somewhat surprising that no one seems to notice that Claude is half Almyran. He's pretty much the only one in the Alliance with an Almyran skin tome. In his appearance Claude is very much an Almyran. 

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1 minute ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Its actually somewhat surprising that no one seems to notice that Claude is half Almyran. He's pretty much the only one in the Alliance with an Almyran skin tome. In his appearance Claude is very much an Almyran. 

Well, with the reveal of Hapi, who shows no indication of being an actual foreigner, it seems that such a skin tone might just be rare, but not impossible. I'm guessing, of course. 

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9 hours ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Being an unreliable narrator doesn't mean you're a liar. It means your perception of events is flawed for some reason and as such cannot be taken as unequivocal truth. We're talking about a guy who puts personal blame on himself for deaths that he had nothing to do with/ couldn't stop, and who hears the voices of the spirits of dead loved ones in his head, on top of vehemently hating himself. He is not a reliable narrator, but that doesn't mean he lied about anything.

No, but I see no reason for Dimitri to include children in the bunch if they indeed weren't children, and he is the most reliable narrator you have available (he's the only living witness, presumably). I don't think he revealed whether or not they were armed or hostile against him, but I doubt it really matters to him. That only matters to his defenders, apparently.

You're not a more reliable narrator than he is.

9 hours ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Fleche managed to incapacitate Dimitri in one strike after also killing the person who went to block the blow. Maybe she didn't go for the heart, but if that had hit Dimitri full on, he would've died.

Doubt it. If the blow was that serious, you would have heard more about it afterward. Rodrigue literally put himself in the way and wasn't armored: he was a much softer target to begin with. Nevermind that even incapacitating him seems like a stretch to me - not even cutscene Edelgard managed to do that - but the story must go on, I guess.

9 hours ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Killing child soldiers is always a sad thing, but kids are just as capable of stabbing you as anyone else and if you don't agree, I suggest you look up real world records of child soldiers and what happens to them in war. Also can we just point out that child soldiers reflects far worse on the side using them than the side that has to kill them to keep from dying. Dimitri may have been strong enough to choose not to kill them according to some people, but that's really not how battle works. It's why I have such an issue with the Remire chapter. Though at least someone (I forget who) does point out that taking them out non lethally is next to impossible...

Oh I know it happens. Doesn't mean it's good or a fair more degree sad than killing full grown men. Dimitri has the strength and capability of incapacitating, not killing, someone who is a far less significant threat than he is. My theory is that he's fully aware of that, hence why he feels incredibly guilty, and he probably should. There was a point in time where he didn't care.

You're fine with it because it's war, and can justify it so you can continue to defend and like him. I'd rather just accept he did the bad things he says he did and does genuinely need to atone for it. I hope you're fine with overlooking Edelgard's transgressions with "well it's war" or "it's necessary".

9 hours ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Dimitri went after Randolph so hard because, in his mind, Randolph is much like him. It doesn't matter that he was a soldier just following orders, he still butchered people. To make matters worse, to Dimitri he's a hypocrite who doesn't accept his own wrongdoings while simultaneously condemning Dimitri. In Dimitri's twisted view at this time, Randolph is just as unforgivable as he is, and as such he's only doing what the both of them deserve. Is it wrong? Yes. The game does not try to portray this as okay.

Or the boar persona is far more bloodthristy and cruel than the Dimitri stans are willing to credit it. He wasn't fine with just killing Randolph, he also wanted the guy to watch his subordinates be killed. He likes to inflict suffering because it makes him feel justified, it isn't just merely avenging the dead or hating himself. Not even gonna touch the fact that the voices aren't actually real and a product of his own subconscious lol.

Edited by Crysta

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4 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Things like this makes me wonder if Sothis really was a goddess or just a very powerful dragon

I'm -somewhat- more willing to put her in the former category if only because she healed the land from the Ailel-like state it was in after the Agarthans went ham with their Pillars of Light and given her powers over time.

However I'm hesitant to say that because the Pillars of Light are also hillariously inconsistent in terms of power. Apparently they caused Aillel yet they -merely- destroy part of Arianrhod and Merceus. Rhea in Dragon Mode was able to tank several of them. Is it just a matter of numbers or are the ones nowadays weaker?

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