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The True Tragedy of Three Houses

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7 minutes ago, jawaunw said:

yeah but the problem with that type of thinking is once you think about it why not just be God of the world it leads to just pure dictatorship you think you know best for everyone else so they should live the way that you say they should hell her system is all about merit improving themselves to the emperor so they can end up inside of a good position The weak die and the strong live That's the type of world edelgard wants to live in Dimitri creates the world that's closest to a democracy and even then it still sounds horrible if it wasn't for the fact that every ending stated that they all achieved peace then no one will actually believe half of these endings achieved anything The games just sugarcoating it for usClaude is the closest one that gives us any type of society that shows natural progress honestly of course people wouldn't accept him becoming the ruler and he'll leave it to the main character they have influence in the church it's easier for people to trust them and in him after the war is over Claude goes back to his own country and creates diplomatic ties it's a long process but it sounds a lot better than suddenly I won the war in the other side loves me now even though I kill every a bunch of people over there and told them that I'm their new ruler after they're killing their king or queen doesn't work that way

Would it be better if all the endings stated that no one actually achieved anything and that the war was always completely pointless? I never got the impression that Edelgard would allow the poor to starve or the weak to die, at least not crimson flower Edelgard(things her Azure Moon counterpart says can't necessarily be applied to other routes as here, she lacks certain people to influence her in the right direction), rather I would think that she wants for those who are capable to use their talents to better the lives of everyone in society. Edelgard's system has a way of upwards mobility that just isn't present in the ideal societies of the other lords, with the possible exception of Claude. If even a poor commoner could rise as high as Emperor, people would never be stuck in their current roles, and you could imagine what happens when a formally poor commoner does become Emperor. Presumably he would make policies to benefit the poor because he would know what it is like to be in that position. As such, it is uncertain how long this government will even have an Emperor as it might develop in a democratic direction with time. Edelgard herself doesn't even stay in power for all that long as she abdicates the throne after she deals with the slitherers. What happens to the society does depend on the nature of this successor, but Edelgard does state that when it comes to her successor. She seeks someone who is in her words "capable and kind".  It might be a slow change, but I do think that Edelgard might have laid the foundation for a much better society. Either that or it just goes back to being a aristocracy within a few generations, and the entire war was pointless. I think that Edelgard abdicates the throne because she is well aware of that she inherited her title as the leader and that is inherently contradictory to her ideology, she thinks the imperial line should end with her, blood will no longer determine who is fit for rulership. Yes, there will be rebellions, that is unavoidable, but hopefully with time, people would realise that their life under the new Empire is actually drastically better than it used to be and the rebellions would die down over the generations.

The funny thing with that is that Edelgard after giving up the throne would just be a regular citizen in the Empire she created, she wouldn't have any titles or anything to stand above a normal commoner, because thanks to her there is no division between commoner and noble any more. You really think she would make it difficult for a subset of the population she would soon join? 

And yes, I am well aware of the potential flaws in my thinking, but doesn't mean I don't understand the mindset or why someone would do what Edelgard did, it is a massive risk, but the idea of just sitting by and doing nothing also doesn't sit right with me. Sometimes I grow impatient with the injustices in the world and just want them to be gone. The thing is, if I actually did manage to conquer a world, I probably should undo my own power after it is done to avoid absolute power corrupting me. You will need power to unite, but in peacetime. That will be less necessary. It would be conceivable to go back to a democratic system, at least once your subjects are properly educated and actually understand their own best interest. People not understanding that is usually the biggest drawback to democracy.

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24 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Would it be better if all the endings stated that no one actually achieved anything and that the war was always completely pointless? I never got the impression that Edelgard would allow the poor to starve or the weak to die, at least not crimson flower Edelgard(things her Azure Moon counterpart says can't necessarily be applied to other routes as here, she lacks certain people to influence her in the right direction), rather I would think that she wants for those who are capable to use their talents to better the lives of everyone in society. Edelgard's system has a way of upwards mobility that just isn't present in the ideal societies of the other lords, with the possible exception of Claude. If even a poor commoner could rise as high as Emperor, people would never be stuck in their current roles, and you could imagine what happens when a formally poor commoner does become Emperor. Presumably he would make policies to benefit the poor because he would know what it is like to be in that position. As such, it is uncertain how long this government will even have an Emperor as it might develop in a democratic direction with time. Edelgard herself doesn't even stay in power for all that long as she abdicates the throne after she deals with the slitherers. What happens to the society does depend on the nature of this successor, but Edelgard does state that when it comes to her successor. She seeks someone who is in her words "capable and kind".  It might be a slow change, but I do think that Edelgard might have laid the foundation for a much better society. Either that or it just goes back to being a aristocracy within a few generations, and the entire war was pointless. I think that Edelgard abdicates the throne because she is well aware of that she inherited her title as the leader and that is inherently contradictory to her ideology, she thinks the imperial line should end with her, blood will no longer determine who is fit for rulership. Yes, there will be rebellions, that is unavoidable, but hopefully with time, people would realise that their life under the new Empire is actually drastically better than it used to be and the rebellions would die down over the generations.

The funny thing with that is that Edelgard after giving up the throne would just be a regular citizen in the Empire she created, she wouldn't have any titles or anything to stand above a normal commoner, because thanks to her there is no division between commoner and noble any more. You really think she would make it difficult for a subset of the population she would soon join? 

And yes, I am well aware of the potential flaws in my thinking, but doesn't mean I don't understand the mindset or why someone would do what Edelgard did, it is a massive risk, but the idea of just sitting by and doing nothing also doesn't sit right with me. Sometimes I grow impatient with the injustices in the world and just want them to be gone. The thing is, if I actually did manage to conquer a world, I probably should undo my own power after it is done to avoid absolute power corrupting me. You will need power to unite, but in peacetime. That will be less necessary. It would be conceivable to go back to a democratic system, at least once your subjects are properly educated and actually understand their own best interest. People not understanding that is usually the biggest drawback to democracy.

You're right she does end up saying that in the azure Moon route only but just like Claude and Dimitri her system is bound to fail her merit system is completely flawed and yes I would like for the endings to end up saying that there weren't everlasting peace That's a cop out I mean Ash virtually gives the exact reason why none of these routes would ever work inside the end when fighting edelgard he literally says you've took our land you've took our king you've took our people what else is there left for you to take it adds realism to this game at least instead of all three endings haven't never achieved everlasting peace it's cheap

 

Well yes thinking about injustice in the world waiting isn't a good idea The idea of saying that mine way is better than yours is completely unjustified this is where the similarities with Hitler comes from with a lot of people. people only think about the Jewish part of world war II and Hitler but in the very end Hitler was a guy who was in world war I saw his country lose all a massive debt as people were dying all around from being poor and sorry and how the world was just taking their money letting their country die and he decided I'm going to get us all back together That's how he became a leader for them he gave them what they want in the end they thought they were going to end up with better lives after the crap they had to deal with after world war I he even said that he'll make the world a better place Heck he hated white people in America because he thought they were weak That's why I never understand why they say Nazi here Hitler hated Americans just because he had the few good ideas doesn't make it right to go to someone else's land to say You're doing everything wrong and no one's happy so I'm going to take over in that I will make them happy and if you end up fighting back that is a cost I'm willing to make if everyone on your side dies fighting cuz not many people are willing to surrender to a foreign power easily look at Japan it took a nuke for them to stop

 

what would have made edelgard's route better is her trying to create change and someone challenging it it's better to set an example of peace and good then rather than forcing it down someone's throat because forcing someone into your life isn't good why should they be forced into slavery of your society 

Edited by jawaunw

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9 minutes ago, jawaunw said:

You're right she does end up saying that in the azure Moon route only but just like Claude and Dimitri her system is bound to fail her merit system is completely flawed and yes I would like for the endings to end up saying that there weren't everlasting peace That's a cop out I mean Ash virtually gives the exact reason why none of these routes would ever work inside the end when fighting edelgard he literally says you've took our land you've took our king you've took our people what else is there left for you to take it adds realism to this game at least instead of all three endings haven't never achieved everlasting peace it's cheap

 

Well yes thinking about injustice in the world waiting isn't a good idea The idea of saying that mine way is better than yours is completely unjustified this is where the similarities with Hitler comes from with a lot of people. people only think about the Jewish part of world war II and Hitler but in the very end Hitler was a guy who was in world war I saw his country lose all a massive debt as people were dying all around from being poor and sorry and how the world was just taking their money letting their country die and he decided I'm going to get us all back together That's how he became a leader for them he gave them what they want in the end they thought they were going to end up with better lives after the crap they had to deal with after world war I he even said that he'll make the world a better place Heck he hated white people in America because he thought they were weak That's why I never understand why they say Nazi here Hitler hated Americans just because he had the few good ideas doesn't make it right to go to someone else's land to say You're doing everything wrong and no one's happy so I'm going to take over in that I will make them happy and if you end up fighting back that is a cost I'm willing to make if everyone on your side dies fighting cuz not many people are willing to surrender to a foreign power easily look at Japan it took a nuke for them to stop

I don't think any of the endings would lead to everlasting peace, that would be a bit silly,  but maybe peace for a time, maybe a few hundred years with only minor rebellions like the ones we already seen in the early game before the outbreak of the war.  That does seem to be standard practice. I think most of the endings are just referring to the immediate future, as during the lives of the characters involved, it didn't even go far enough into the future in Crimson flower to reveal how Edelgard's successor faired. It is presumed they did well, but we don't know this for certain. I also think it is spake to apply information from one route to another, characters often develop in different direction between routes and crimson flower Edelgard is in many ways less radical than she is elsewhere, thanks to support from Byleth and general good advice from other Black Eagle members. Edelgard has shown she is willing to listen to opposing ideas on this route and her allies has helped her formulate her ideas into something that might have some actual chance at working.

Don't compare Edelgard to Hitler, other than starting a war they have very little in common. But they had very different reasons for doing so. Not to mention that Edelgard wasn't a huge racist who enabled massive discrimination and eradication against millions among both his own citizens and the regions he conquered. Edelgard has never done anything remotely close to this level of evil. If anything, Edelgard is reminiscent of Napoleon, I did try to do some reading to find out what Napoleon's motivation for starting his war was, seems to be some suggestions of it being a pre-emptive strike against perceived hostility of from other nations due to Frances political system, others say it was a way to spread the ideals of the Enlightenment to other countries in Europe, the second one sounding rather close to Edelgard's motivations.  I have also heard from a friend about the nukes on Japan , but it is very likely they would have surrendered anyway, and that Truman just wanted an excuse to test out the bombs. I don't know if my friend is right, but it is a legit possibility as winners in history have a tendency to rewrite things to suit their narrative. The truth about World War II is that every faction involved is guilt of doing at least something horrible. However, if the nuke was indeeed necessary, it would indeed have been better than continuing a drawn-out war. 

Despite recognising the arrogance of saying this, there are some things I am not willing to compromise on, things that I believe to be right so strongly that I don't think anything wrong with pushing this on the rest of the world. These are things like "people should be considered equals no matter their ethnicity, biological sex, sexual orientation or gender identity, no discrimination against anyone based on these grounds is to be allowed for any reason." In my mind, any nation who breaks this rule is guilty of crimes against humanity and will lose all rights to sovereignity in the eyes of the civilised world. There are some things that simply cannot be tolerated as they cause great harm to the citizens of a nation.

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Edelgard as Napoleon is a very apt comparison. He rose from relative obscurity; he aimed to create a system of meritocracy; he saw that France needed a firm hand but he was also broadly on board with the ideals of the French Revolution and tried, to a limited extent, to spread them in the territories he conquerered. But ultimately he came as a conquerer. He had his supporters even in Russia, even in England; nevertheless, at the end of the day nobody likes being conquered and they resent reforms being forced upon them, however wonderful those reforms may be. Edelgard needs to stay on the throne for a lot longer than she thinks, and maintain a powerful standing army, if she is not to witness the same kind of conservative reaction that seized Europe at the Congress of Vienna. A few years of reform isn't enough to loosen the grip of the old guard on power. Spain never knuckled under to Napoleonic rule; the Peninsular war was horrifically brutal. I imagine the war in Faerghus being much the same. Catholicism ran deep in Spain, and religion and love of their kings runs deep in Faerghus. They'll be fighting to regain their independence and self-determination as soon as they can. 

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1 hour ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

Edelgard as Napoleon is a very apt comparison. He rose from relative obscurity; he aimed to create a system of meritocracy; he saw that France needed a firm hand but he was also broadly on board with the ideals of the French Revolution and tried, to a limited extent, to spread them in the territories he conquerered. But ultimately he came as a conquerer. He had his supporters even in Russia, even in England; nevertheless, at the end of the day nobody likes being conquered and they resent reforms being forced upon them, however wonderful those reforms may be. Edelgard needs to stay on the throne for a lot longer than she thinks, and maintain a powerful standing army, if she is not to witness the same kind of conservative reaction that seized Europe at the Congress of Vienna. A few years of reform isn't enough to loosen the grip of the old guard on power. Spain never knuckled under to Napoleonic rule; the Peninsular war was horrifically brutal. I imagine the war in Faerghus being much the same. Catholicism ran deep in Spain, and religion and love of their kings runs deep in Faerghus. They'll be fighting to regain their independence and self-determination as soon as they can. 

This actually makes a lot of sense, looking at it closely, there was actually given more parallels between Edelgard and the Napoleon than I first thought. They have similar ideals and a similar reason to conquer. Edelgard is even quite short which is a myth often asscribed to Napoleon (not actually true, but it is so often believed that this could easily be a reference). I think the most impressive thing about Napoleon for me is that after returning from the island he was exiled to, just walked right into france and claimed the throne again without even needing an army, the people of work that level of loyal to him. Other French armies were sent to stop him, but most ended up joining him as he didn't want to fight their former Emperor. This of course ended with the battle for Waterloo. I should look into Napoleon more, he is a very interesting historical figure. It is also worth pointing out that the ideals of the French Revolution is probably a big reason why we have democracy in Europe today, I think this is because it served as a point of inspiration and proved that the monarchy and aristocracy could be overthrown and that people didn't have to accept the status quo. I wonder if Edelgard inspired the same loyalty in Empire territories as Napoleon did in France. 

You also have a point that rebellions from Faerghus is probably inevitable, but hopefully these wars will be minor in comparison to the continental war of conquest. The hope is that after some time, the people would realise their lives are actually pretty good under the Empire and lose motivation to rebel. Edelgard's rule is going to benefit most of the commoners, it is really the former nobility who has cause to rebel and they need the commoners to support them to have any real numbers, if Edelgard's system benefits the commoners more then the numbers of rebels will be quite significantly smaller. I think some backlash is definitely to be expected when you conquer a territory, but it usually dies down with time, especially if the citizens of that territory are treated well by the new government reforming a society isn't easy, it takes a blood sweat and tears, but sometimes it can be for the best. 

Edit. If Edelgard retires soon after the end of the game, it is very likely her successor would be one of the members of the Black Eagle strikeforce. Who do you think is the most likely to get nominated as Edelgard's successor? For some reason I am thinking Ferdinand or Lysithea (who is part of the Golden Deer, I know, but if recruited, the she is basically like Edelgard's little sister and one of the most loyal people to her cause. She is very capable and motivated to end both the crest and nobility system. I think Emperor Lysithea might actually work)

Edited by Darkmoon6789

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43 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

This actually makes a lot of sense, looking at it closely, there was actually given more parallels between Edelgard and the Napoleon than I first thought. They have similar ideals and a similar reason to conquer. Edelgard is even quite short which is a myth often asscribed to Napoleon (not actually true, but it is so often believed that this could easily be a reference). I think the most impressive thing about Napoleon for me is that after returning from the island he was exiled to, just walked right into france and claimed the throne again without even needing an army, the people of work that level of loyal to him. Other French armies were sent to stop him, but most ended up joining him as he didn't want to fight their former Emperor. This of course ended with the battle for Waterloo. I should look into Napoleon more, he is a very interesting historical figure. It is also worth pointing out that the ideals of the French Revolution is probably a big reason why we have democracy in Europe today, I think this is because it served as a point of inspiration and proved that the monarchy and aristocracy could be overthrown and that people didn't have to accept the status quo. I wonder if Edelgard inspired the same loyalty in Empire territories as Napoleon did in France. 

You also have a point that rebellions from Faerghus is probably inevitable, but hopefully these wars will be minor in comparison to the continental war of conquest. The hope is that after some time, the people would realise their lives are actually pretty good under the Empire and lose motivation to rebel. Edelgard's rule is going to benefit most of the commoners, it is really the former nobility who has cause to rebel and they need the commoners to support them to have any real numbers, if Edelgard's system benefits the commoners more then the numbers of rebels will be quite significantly smaller. I think some backlash is definitely to be expected when you conquer a territory, but it usually dies down with time, especially if the citizens of that territory are treated well by the new government reforming a society isn't easy, it takes a blood sweat and tears, but sometimes it can be for the best. 

Edit. If Edelgard retires soon after the end of the game, it is very likely her successor would be one of the members of the Black Eagle strikeforce. Who do you think is the most likely to get nominated as Edelgard's successor? For some reason I am thinking Ferdinand or Lysithea (who is part of the Golden Deer, I know, but if recruited, the she is basically like Edelgard's little sister and one of the most loyal people to her cause. She is very capable and motivated to end both the crest and nobility system. I think Emperor Lysithea might actually work)

Honestly I always imagined that her successor would be someone raised under her system and that until a proper one could be found, Hubert and Ferdinand would act in her stead. IMO it would feel like the most apt ending for her.

 

Edited by Axel987

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5 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

Honestly I always imagined that her successor would be someone raised under her system and that until a proper one could be found, Hubert and Ferdinand would act in her stead. IMO it would feel like the most apt ending for her.

 

That does actually make a lot of sense, I would also think that a successor from a later generation might be picked from the commoners on purpose just to drive home that even those that were born in poverty can rise to the top. It is also interesting that Edelgard actually values kindness as one of the most important traits for a successor of hers as revealed in one of her tea time conversations. I am uncertain how well Hubert would do as Emperor due to him being very emotionally cold and sometimes cruel, but he does make a great right hand man to Ferdinand as he is very intelligent and does what needs to be done. He just needs to be tempered by someone with a sense of mercy. It does kind of seem to me like Edelgard really wants to retire as soon as she feels she can. They really get the impression from her that she didn't want to rule to begin with, this was never about claiming power for herself, the war was only really about removing a system she saw as corrupt. While I think Edelgard earned her retirement, I am also hard pressed to find any ruler as capable as she

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The thing is, after Napoleon was forced to abdicate, the aristocracy and monarchy came back in France with a vengeance. I love her ideals, but the reality is that the kind of change she envisions takes generations to establish. It's always two steps forward, one step back. That's why I can't see Edelgard actually retiring. She will yearn to, and she will intend to, but the right moment will never come. There will always be another war to fight, another rebellion to put down, new guerilla groups forming in the cold mountains of Faerghus, reactionary conspiracies to quell at home...

I feel for her. 

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5 minutes ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

The thing is, after Napoleon was forced to abdicate, the aristocracy and monarchy came back in France with a vengeance. I love her ideals, but the reality is that the kind of change she envisions takes generations to establish. It's always two steps forward, one step back. That's why I can't see Edelgard actually retiring. She will yearn to, and she will intend to, but the right moment will never come. There will always be another war to fight, another rebellion to put down, new guerilla groups forming in the cold mountains of Faerghus, reactionary conspiracies to quell at home...

I feel for her. 

Good point, most endings are actually rather unclear about the timeframe of her retirement, but in certain cases, she does seem to be in power for quite a while. Not to mention that she also needs to deal with the remains of those as slither in the dark, as long as Thales lives the entire empire is in danger.

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7 minutes ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

The thing is, after Napoleon was forced to abdicate, the aristocracy and monarchy came back in France with a vengeance. I love her ideals, but the reality is that the kind of change she envisions takes generations to establish. It's always two steps forward, one step back. That's why I can't see Edelgard actually retiring. She will yearn to, and she will intend to, but the right moment will never come. There will always be another war to fight, another rebellion to put down, new guerilla groups forming in the cold mountains of Faerghus, reactionary conspiracies to quell at home...

I feel for her. 

I don't think so. The case is that unlike Napoleon, who was forced to abdicate, Edelgard abdicates of her own volition, and by choosing a successor. Also, her war is not simply a case of her conquering nations, but how she also has people of other nations willingly join her through some forms of diplomacy. For example, her manifestos helped bring about many nobles from the Alliance and Kingdom to her side. The western portion of Faerghus had already joined her. Though she defeated Claude, it only made the other Alliance nobles join her without needing to be fought.

Edelgard's methods in CF is not like Napoleon's. 

In fact, because she manages to win over nobles without needing to fight them, it just maintains a stronger unity in her efforts. The system was reformed, and ultimately resulted in her abdicating of her own will and leaving behind a successor, someone that she mentioned in tea time to be not of blood relation, but one that is both capable and kind. Ultimately, I think Edelgard's unified Fodlan definitely stands a good chance of working out, especially with how she brings about free education for commoners and allowing them to actually rise up in status. This ultimately allows many commoners to side with her.

Even Petra noted that many oppressed commoners side with Edelgard.

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7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I don't think so. The case is that unlike Napoleon, who was forced to abdicate, Edelgard abdicates of her own volition, and by choosing a successor. Also, her war is not simply a case of her conquering nations, but how she also has people of other nations willingly join her through some forms of diplomacy. For example, her manifestos helped bring about many nobles from the Alliance and Kingdom to her side. The western portion of Faerghus had already joined her. Though she defeated Claude, it only made the other Alliance nobles join her without needing to be fought.

Edelgard's methods in CF is not like Napoleon's. 

In fact, because she manages to win over nobles without needing to fight them, it just maintains a stronger unity in her efforts. The system was reformed, and ultimately resulted in her abdicating of her own will and leaving behind a successor, someone that she mentioned in tea time to be not of blood relation, but one that is both capable and kind. Ultimately, I think Edelgard's unified Fodlan definitely stands a good chance of working out, especially with how she brings about free education for commoners and allowing them to actually rise up in status. This ultimately allows many commoners to side with her.

Even Petra noted that many oppressed commoners side with Edelgard.

Isn't "The western portion of Faerghus had already joined her" only accurate in non-CF routes, given that it occured through Cornelia's coup, who she then allied with. In CF notable west-Faerghus houses like House Rowe who's territory is on the Empire-Kingdom border still seem to be on the Kingdom's side so I'm not particularly sure on that one.

 

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2 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

Isn't "The western portion of Faerghus had already joined her" only accurate in non-CF routes, given that it occured through Cornelia's coup, who she then allied with. In CF notable west-Faerghus houses like House Rowe who's territory is on the Empire-Kingdom border still seem to be on the Kingdom's side so I'm not particularly sure on that one.

Hubert states it himself when he explains the situation to Byleth in Chapter 13:

Quote

Hubert: Allow me to brief you on the details of our situation. The Empire firmly controls the western portion of Faerghus. However, the central and eastern regions continue to put up heavy resistance.

House Rowe, with Arianrhod and beyond are not under the Empire's control just yet. 

There's plenty of little details that are mentioned in dialogue that really goes to show that Edelgard is not simply just some conquerer. There's been efforts in diplomacy.

Faerghus is even noted to not be completely united in this war and there are people that wish to join Edelgard. 

It's why I said that Edelgard isn't like Napoleon. Edelgard has the support of many commoners and nobles alike that support her ideals and efforts, ultimately giving a stronger control. And when the Agarthans are dealt with, there's no parasites that would try to exploit any corrupt environments.

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10 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Despite them being step siblings, the game do seem to imply that they did used to have a romantic connection, I would like to see more fan content about the two. While my number one ship with Edelgard is with Byleth, I think Edelgard reconciling with Dimitri would have been really sweet. There is one alternative way I could think of Azure Moon ending. What if Edelgard actually accepted the offer of mercy and Dimitri and Edelgard rekindled the relationship that used to be, everything ending with a marriage between the two uniting the kingdom and the Empire as one. Which could lead to both of them getting what they want (or at least find an acceptable compromise).

I've seen fanart of the two, and I will never understand why. How can someone ship two people when the relationship would be, via both canon and differing goals and personalities, doomed to failure? I just don't understand.

As for Edelgard accepting the offer of mercy, consider why she did suicide-by-cop on Dimitri in the first place. In her C+ support, she says she wants a world without "meaningless sacrifice". The "meaningless" part is very important. She considers her siblings' deaths meaningless sacrifice because it was ultimately for Slither's petty revenge plot. By contrast, she considers the casualties of this war meaningful sacrifices because the world their deaths created is supposed to be better for those who live through it, and their descendants. So their sacrifices have meaning...if she wins the war. If she loses, then all those deaths were effectively for nothing, and she can't bear the weight of that. That's why, in the 3 routes where she dies, she begs for death.

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3 minutes ago, Sid Starkiller said:

I've seen fanart of the two, and I will never understand why. How can someone ship two people when the relationship would be, via both canon and differing goals and personalities, doomed to failure? I just don't understand.

As for Edelgard accepting the offer of mercy, consider why she did suicide-by-cop on Dimitri in the first place. In her C+ support, she says she wants a world without "meaningless sacrifice". The "meaningless" part is very important. She considers her siblings' deaths meaningless sacrifice because it was ultimately for Slither's petty revenge plot. By contrast, she considers the casualties of this war meaningful sacrifices because the world their deaths created is supposed to be better for those who live through it, and their descendants. So their sacrifices have meaning...if she wins the war. If she loses, then all those deaths were effectively for nothing, and she can't bear the weight of that. That's why, in the 3 routes where she dies, she begs for death.

There's something intriguing about something that is inherently doomed to fail despite what either party wants, I suppose.

 

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19 minutes ago, Sid Starkiller said:

I've seen fanart of the two, and I will never understand why. How can someone ship two people when the relationship would be, via both canon and differing goals and personalities, doomed to failure? I just don't understand.

As for Edelgard accepting the offer of mercy, consider why she did suicide-by-cop on Dimitri in the first place. In her C+ support, she says she wants a world without "meaningless sacrifice". The "meaningless" part is very important. She considers her siblings' deaths meaningless sacrifice because it was ultimately for Slither's petty revenge plot. By contrast, she considers the casualties of this war meaningful sacrifices because the world their deaths created is supposed to be better for those who live through it, and their descendants. So their sacrifices have meaning...if she wins the war. If she loses, then all those deaths were effectively for nothing, and she can't bear the weight of that. That's why, in the 3 routes where she dies, she begs for death.

Also consider that the Agarthans would always seek to still use her if she survives. Her death forces the Agarthans to retreat. 

13 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

There's something intriguing about something that is inherently doomed to fail despite what either party wants, I suppose.

Everything changes when Byleth chooses to reject his destiny and protect Edelgard. 

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3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Everything changes when Byleth chooses to reject his destiny and protect Edelgard. 

...? Not quite sure how this relates to my comment which had nothing at all to do with what Byleth chooses to do lol.

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1 hour ago, Axel987 said:

...? Not quite sure how this relates to my comment which had nothing at all to do with what Byleth chooses to do lol.

Well, it sort of does. It's a case of how the choices of the world and others prevents what you might want to do from mattering. 

It's how I view fate in 3H. Regardless of his choice, his destiny is overall to be against Edelgard, since Silver Snow is the default route. Even if Byleth admits wanting to spare Edelgard, the choice you make matters now. But in CF, choices play a stronger role, so not everything is doomed to fail.

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Plenty of people in the territories Napoleon conquered saw him as a liberator from the oppressive Ancien Regimes. Napoleon was no slouch when it came to diplomacy. Napoleon is Edelgard in all routes but CF; in every route where she's ultimately outgunned. One should never underestimate the power of nationalism or of loyalty to tradition. The peasants of Fraldarius and Gauthier don't know Edelgard from Adam, but they know that the strength of the noble families with the Crests have protected them from invaders for generations. 

I got the impression a lot of Alliance lords (cough cough Lorenz's father) went over to the Empire not because they believed in Edelgard's vision (why would they?) but because it was to their advantage. If they sided with her, they could keep their lands and authority; if they went against her, they risked losing everything. An emperor far away in Enbarr and too busy to keep a close eye on her Alliance nobles is in many ways a more attractive proposition than a Claude right there in Derdriu, trying to shake things up in his own way. 

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1 minute ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

Plenty of people in the territories Napoleon conquered saw him as a liberator from the oppressive Ancien Regimes. Napoleon was no slouch when it came to diplomacy. Napoleon is Edelgard in all routes but CF; in every route where she's ultimately outgunned. One should never underestimate the power of nationalism or of loyalty to tradition. The peasants of Fraldarius and Gauthier don't know Edelgard from Adam, but they know that the strength of the noble families with the Crests have protected them from invaders for generations. 

I got the impression a lot of Alliance lords (cough cough Lorenz's father) went over to the Empire not because they believed in Edelgard's vision (why would they?) but because it was to their advantage. If they sided with her, they could keep their lands and authority; if they went against her, they risked losing everything. An emperor far away in Enbarr and too busy to keep a close eye on her Alliance nobles is in many ways a more attractive proposition than a Claude right there in Derdriu, trying to shake things up in his own way. 

In the end, yeah, Edelgard is much closer to the Napoleon aspect in non-CF routes, whereas in her route, she is able to use diplomacy to win allies over, and yes, not all joined simply because they believed in her visions, but because it helps them hold power. That or they hate the Church/Rhea. 

But because of how Edelgard is someone that didn't just conquer and killed for the sake of it, but was trying to get people to open their eyes and begin to actually make their own decisions in things. Even people that were faithful to the religion still finds solace with Edelgard, mentioned in Ferdinand and Mercedes's C support post timeskip in Crimson Flower, where despite being at war with the Church, Edelgard is fine with people holding onto their religion. Edelgard makes it clear that she's against the Church, not the faith.

So even people that worship the goddess can still choose to side with Edelgard simply because they feel that Edelgard is acting as the goddess truly wants. It's why in the mural of Edelgard, Edelgard is depicted by an angelic being behind her, which seems to indicate as if people view her as someone that was blessed by the goddess, which is interesting in how it brings how Byleth is the one regarded as the Wings of the Hegemon in his ending. 

Add in how the people of Fhirdiad were actually trapped by Rhea, who set the city on fire, Edelgard at the end of the war was the one that the people of Fhirdiad would view as their savior. 

And given how Edelgard does restore the Church of Seiros so people can once more have an institution to hold their beliefs onto, along with how she also intends to work on border relations, which will promote cultural exchange, and again, top it off with Edelgard having a successor chosen and abdicate willingly, it'll help keep the legacy she left behind and the changes she made to continue onward.

So honestly, I don't really believe in the concept that Edelgard will meet the same fate as Napoleon and that monarchy and such will return with a vengeance.

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28 minutes ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

I got the impression a lot of Alliance lords (cough cough Lorenz's father) went over to the Empire not because they believed in Edelgard's vision (why would they?) but because it was to their advantage. If they sided with her, they could keep their lands and authority; if they went against her, they risked losing everything

I got that impression as well. IIRC if you have Lorenz in CF he'll say at some point he was surprised over how many religious nobles he knew about switched to her side so quickly, to the point he wonders if their piety was always an act.

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Just now, Licoriceallsorts said:

I don't think it will either, I just think that she'd probably have to remain as ruler for a lot longer than she imagines at the beginning. Retirement won't really be an option for her. 

We aren't sure how long she reigns as the emperor. They never really make the time period clear. However, one thing I DO notice is how multiple endings either say "Emperor Edelgard" or just "emperor" which strikes me as odd. In regards to "Emperor Edelgard" ending cards, it tends to indicate that not that much time had passed, but in regards to the "emperor" ones, some time had passed, which generally makes me wonder if the "emperor" cards is the indication of the successor being chosen.

I even asked my friends to take a look at the JP endings and confirm if the same happens there, and they confirm that that is indeed the case, and how the "Emperor Edelgard" texts are longer on its own, which gives the impression that it can't be really a case of simply saving text space. 

All we do know is that Edelgard wipes out the Agarthans, creates a new system that is based off of merits, and then leaves behind a successor. But it can't be done overnight, so yeah, her rule had to have taken some time. We just don't know how long. 

4 minutes ago, Moltz23 said:

I got that impression as well. IIRC if you have Lorenz in CF he'll say at some point he was surprised over how many religious nobles he knew about switched to her side so quickly, to the point he wonders if their piety was always an act.

That actually made me understand how much pressure nobles really do face in regards to the Church's religion. Lorenz even remarks in the very beginning of the story that he wasn't much of a believer himself, but it was his duty as a noble to follow the faith. 

It's a subtle indication of how the Church influences people and how dangerous their control is. It's not until someone actually decided to oppose the Church and go to war with them that they finally decided to make their own move once they felt that Edelgard had a chance at winning. 

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I have to imagine a middle-aged Edelgard choosing her successor Willy Wonka style - by placing five golden tickets in delicious Edelbars, welcoming the five young recipients to the palace in Enbarr, then exposing them all to various base temptations until only the one least morally compromised remains.

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18 hours ago, Crysta said:

 

I've heard the opposite, actually, but I'm not sure how well I should trust a video game to accurately depict mental illness.

Well it's "good" for media, as mental illness in media is usually depicted very, very, very, very, very poorly and is usually romanticized. example : 13 Reasons Why. 

 

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4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I have to imagine a middle-aged Edelgard choosing her successor Willy Wonka style - by placing five golden tickets in delicious Edelbars, welcoming the five young recipients to the palace in Enbarr, then exposing them all to various base temptations until only the one least morally compromised remains.

Thank you for the new headcanon!

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