The True Tragedy of Three Houses

[Crysta]

8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Either you mean that in regards to how Nemesis is the name of the goddess of Retribution and Revenge, or you mean the "King of Liberation", which you CAN actually regard to how his home was invaded, and with the power of the Crests and Relics, liberated his home. 

In which case, both could apply, in that he attained retribution and revenge for the invasion of his home. But the thing about revenge is that it is objectively wrong and can cause dire consequences.

Rhea gives him that title to better conform to folklore she crafted for him. Which ironically portrays him much more sympathetically than he himself does for the limited amount of time he is on screen. I'm not sure he actually uses it for himself.

As for "nemesis" itself, it essentially means "opponent" with far more negative connotations. And those are presumably the connotations he wants to cloak himself with, because there are no classical gods in Fodlan. Ultimate edgelord move.

He's more likely exactly what he's portrayed as, if both his own arch nemesis (Rhea) and his former ally (Thales) agree: a useful tool and a man who coveted power for the sake of having it.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Crysta

[MrPerson0]

46 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Wanting power does not equate to wanting to rule the world. Wanting power can extend to a VARIETY of things. Hell, many stories have people simply want power to do good, or just protect the things that matter to them. As I theorize, if there were actually invaders from the north, which there may be some merit given that present Faerghus suffers from Sreng invasions, it's very easy to believe that Nemesis was desperate for power and the Agarthans offered it to him. 

To the point where he already gained enough power from the Agarthans by killing Sothis, then went on to nearly exterminate the rest of her race/children? Going to have to be a hard disagree with any chance of Nemesis being noble like you are trying to theorize.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, MrPerson0 said:

To the point where he already gained enough power from the Agarthans by killing Sothis, then went on to nearly exterminate the rest of her race/children? Going to have to be a hard disagree with any chance of Nemesis being noble like you are trying to theorize.

I'm sorry, but he is just ONE person. Yeah, power of an army, but that does NOT mean he can singlehandedly wipe every enemy out, especially if the invaders are much larger in number. So if he believes that he needs people to also bear might similar to his, all the more reason to follow what the Agarthans say, who then make him go to Zanado. 

I'm not saying that he's "noble" or anything like that. If anything, it's "understandable". 

As I said, there are stories where people simply want to do good. Does that mean that they won't do some terrible things?

Let's not forget that Edelgard started a war for the sake of freeing the world from Rhea's control over Fodlan with the Church, and create a new system of government. Yeah, she wants to do good, but she's still starting a war. The best of intentions are not always met with the most righteous of actions. Even if Edelgard can be said to be right in what she did and her war was necessary, it doesn't change that war is still a horrible thing in the end.

[Crysta]

Isn't he the first wielder of the Sword of the Creator, which I have been assured can cleave through mountains and singlehandedly defeat entire armies regardless of the talent of its wielder?

[Axel987]

Just now, Crysta said:

Isn't he the first wielder of the Sword of the Creator, which I have been assured can cleave through mountains and singlehandedly defeat entire armies regardless of the talent of its wielder?

He also wields the full force of the Crest of Flames which is stated to be beyond the power of all other crests and considering one of those other crests is the Crest of Blaiddyd that grants super strength to the point where a super diluted version of it still allows Dimitri to be effectively a one man army...yeah.

 

[omegaxis1]

11 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Rhea gives him that title to better conform to folklore she crafted for him. Which ironically portrays him much more sympathetically than he himself does for the limited amount of time he is on screen. I'm not sure he actually uses it for himself.

As for "nemesis" itself, it essentially means "opponent" with far more negative connotations. And those are presumably the connotations he wants to cloak himself with, because there are no classical gods in Fodlan. Ultimate edgelord move.

He's more likely exactly what he's portrayed as, if both his own arch nemesis (Rhea) and his former ally (Thales) agree: a useful tool and a man who coveted power for the sake of having it.

I don't think we can really attribute how Nemesis being revived much, given how Nemesis seems only interested in Seiros, which tends to prevent him fro advancing far in personality. 

1 minute ago, Crysta said:

Isn't he the first wielder of the Sword of the Creator, which I have been assured can cleave through mountains and singlehandedly defeat entire armies regardless of the talent of its wielder?

And yet we have the case of how the war against Nemesis lasted 66 years. The sheer size of the army that Wilhelm and Rhea created was enough to combat the power of the Relics, especially once added with the ancestor Crest bearers in the Empire, as well as the remaining Nabateans. Even if Nemesis had such power, it's likely that he would not feel that he can take on absolutely everyone. Otherwise, why raise an army in the first place in the War of Heroes if he could have taken them all on his own?

[Crysta]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

I don't think we can really attribute how Nemesis being revived much, given how Nemesis seems only interested in Seiros, which tends to prevent him fro advancing far in personality. 

He's essentially Boar!Dimitri but with Seiros instead of Edelgard. I don't think I need a full route to know what primarily motivates him (spoiler: emotions - not empathy or logic).

Traits not conductive to a wise, morally sound leader in any case.

5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

And yet we have the case of how the war against Nemesis lasted 66 years. The sheer size of the army that Wilhelm and Rhea created was enough to combat the power of the Relics, especially once added with the ancestor Crest bearers in the Empire, as well as the remaining Nabateans. Even if Nemesis had such power, it's likely that he would not feel that he can take on absolutely everyone. Otherwise, why raise an army in the first place in the War of Heroes if he could have taken them all on his own?

I was being cheeky because I recall arguing, at length, about how the Sword of the Creator isn't an almighty delete button in another thread about Claude wanting it and you and your friend happily dismissed my arguments as just being mechanical inconveniences. Now it's not so OP, I guess?

I actually agree that Nemesis needed help and there was a reason for the army, I just find your reasoning very shaky, and there's more in-game evidence for Nemesis being an asshole than there is him being justified.

[omegaxis1]

11 minutes ago, Crysta said:

I was being cheeky because I recall arguing, at length, about how the Sword of the Creator isn't an almighty delete button in another thread about Claude wanting it and you and your friend happily dismissed my arguments as just being mechanical inconveniences. Now it's not so OP, I guess?

I actually agree that Nemesis needed help and there was a reason for the army, I just find your reasoning very shaky, and there's more in-game evidence for Nemesis being an asshole than there is him being justified.

Neither of us said that it was a magical delete button either. We both simply said that it is insanely powerful and has proven to be able to cause extensive damage. I'm still not undermining the sword's power or even Nemesis's. But being a one man army does not mean that you are all powerful. Hell, Dimitri even proves this due to how he has super strength and ferocity, but that doesn't change that he dies a dog's death in 2 out of 4 routes.

The chance of losing still exists. 

I DID say that it is a theory. But if Nemesis was just an asshole purely and wanted nothing but power, he'd have set for world domination the moment he attained the power he had, and would have conquered all of Fodlan long before the Empire could be founded, or even for Wilhelm to be able to raise an army. Three decades after a nation was created and Nemesis never even made a move against it? Creating a nation and Wilhelm becoming an emperor should have struck all the red flags.

Simply put, Nemesis not going out for world domination makes it seem like he wasn't out for power just for the sake of power.

[Axel987]

4 minutes ago, Crysta said:

He's essentially Boar!Dimitri but with Seiros instead of Edelgard. I don't think I need a full route to know what primarily motivates him (spoiler: emotions - not empathy or logic).

Traits not conductive to a wise, morally sound leader in any case.

I was being cheeky because I recall arguing, at length, about how the Sword of the Creator isn't an almighty delete button in another thread about Claude wanting it and you and your friend happily dismissed my arguments as just being mechanical inconveniences. Now it's not so OP, I guess?

I actually agree that Nemesis needed help and there was a reason for the army, I just find your reasoning very shaky, and there's more in-game evidence for Nemesis being an asshole than there is him being justified.

Honestly what he does after he gets revived, presumably working fully on his own is more indicative of his character than anything.

He makes a beeline for Rhea, pillaging and destroying any settlement between him and his target. We have no clue of what he actually did with his powers once he got them beyond the folklore but his actions really do not indicate him as being much more than a bandit whispered sweet nothings by TWSITD, committing countless atrocities for his power

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Axel987 said:

Honestly what he does after he gets revived, presumably working fully on his own is more indicative of his character than anything.

He makes a beeline for Rhea, pillaging and destroying any settlement between him and his target. We have no clue of what he actually did with his powers once he got them beyond the folklore but his actions really do not indicate him as being much more than a bandit whispered sweet nothings by TWSITD, committing countless atrocities for his power

Being revived by the Agarthans only gives indication that the Agarthans simply programmed him to kill Rhea. I mean, everything in the war from Edelgard baring the Creat of Flames to the kamikaze of Shambhala was an effort to kill Rhea. So NEmesis seems like yet another plan to kill RHea. 

[Crysta]

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Neither of us said that it was a magical delete button either. We both simply said that it is insanely powerful and has proven to be able to cause extensive damage. I'm still not undermining the sword's power or even Nemesis's. But being a one man army does not mean that you are all powerful. Hell, Dimitri even proves this due to how he has super strength and ferocity, but that doesn't change that he dies a dog's death in 2 out of 4 routes.

It was considered a big enough magical delete button to make the theory that Claude would think it's all that's necessary to become a warmonger, and only a being like Seiros and Byleth (getting that sweet divine power) would be able to stop him. The chance of a loss was pretty small!

The large gaps in history seems more likely due to inconsistent writing, or something else we're missing, than Nemesis actually being a misunderstood guy tbh.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Crysta

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Crysta said:

It was considered a big enough magical delete button to make the theory that Claude would think it's all that's necessary to become a warmonger, and only a being like Seiros and Byleth (getting that sweet divine power) would be able to stop him. The chance of a loss was pretty small!

Claude literally indicated to covet the power of the Sword. It ain't some backscratcher, and Claude's always shown to wanting things with the plan of using it for practical effect if need be. Wanting the power of the weapon makes it a very useful tool to have for his plans. Basically have a big stick in case things go south.

2 minutes ago, Crysta said:

The large gaps in history seems more likely due to inconsistent writing, or something else we're missing, than Nemesis actually being a misunderstood guy tbh.

Everything about 3H has proven that things are always a matter of perspective. 

That every side has a story to tell that we just don't know. No party has their story told by another.

Rhea insisted that the Agarthans were people that become corrupt by their hubris and thought themselves as gods. Now the new record in Abyss proves that that was far from the case, and they feared Sothis, considering her a False God, and opposed her because they believed she would try to wipe them all out.

Rhea thought that things were great under Sothis's rule, but that's HER perspective. The Agarthans didn't see it that way at all.

[Axel987]

13 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Being revived by the Agarthans only gives indication that the Agarthans simply programmed him to kill Rhea. I mean, everything in the war from Edelgard baring the Creat of Flames to the kamikaze of Shambhala was an effort to kill Rhea. So NEmesis seems like yet another plan to kill RHea. 

There's actually reason to believe otherwise with regards to the Agarthans;

When someone is under their influence or acting as one of them, there is almost always the initial few notes of Area 17 - Shambhala that plays at the start. The game plays with this several times, with Cornelia for example having it playing before you fight her in AM even if you do not have any indication of her relation to them yet.

There is no such thing for Nemesis, implying this is Nemesis acting, fully of his own volition.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Axel987

[Crysta]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

Claude literally indicated to covet the power of the Sword. It ain't some backscratcher, and Claude's always shown to wanting things with the plan of using it for practical effect if need be. Wanting the power of the weapon makes it a very useful tool to have for his plans. Basically have a big stick in case things go south.

The argument was it was the only big stick he'd think he'd need. When I contended that it'd be dumb of him to put all his eggs in that basket, the arguments leaned into how awesome the SoTC was. When I pointed to the in-game evidence refuting that and the obvious fact that the mythology was exaggerating, and Claude would likely know that, it was being undermined for game mechanics - it was still ungodly powerful.

So when now I hear it isn't, I just kind of lol'd.

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Everything about 3H has proven that things are always a matter of perspective. 

That every side has a story to tell that we just don't know. No party has their story told by another.

No, not every side. Bad people with outright selfish and greedy reasons do exist throughout 3H.

It isn't only Rhea's perspective we get to see. Why do you think Thales calls him a thief?

Additionally, there is no evidence in the game that suggests Nemesis is under mind control, or that the Agarthans have deployed such a spell/technology in the past or in the game.

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

There's actually reason to believe otherwise with regards to the Agarthans;

When someone is under their influence or acting as one of them, there is almost always the initial few notes of Area 17 - Shambhala that plays at the start. The game plays with this several times, with Cornelia for example having it playing before you fight her in AM even if you do not have any indication of her relation to them yet.

There is no such thing for Nemesis, implying this is Nemesis acting, fully of his own volition.

That's debatable. Cause he's being supported by the Agarthans, so there's some level of Agarthan influence on him. Or simply put that the reanimation of him was him clinging to the memory he last recalled, with Seiros stabbing him repeatedly to death reminding him of the Red Canyon, so he acts on that.

2 minutes ago, Crysta said:

The argument was it was the only big stick he'd think he'd need. When I contended that it'd be dumb of him to put all his eggs in that basket, the arguments leaned into how awesome the SoTC was. When I pointed to the in-game evidence refuting that and the obvious fact that the mythology was exaggerating, and Claude would likely know that, it was being undermined for game mechanics - it was still ungodly powerful.

So when now I hear it isn't, I just kind of lol'd.

Except that's not what you were saying back then. Least not to that wording. You were overall speaking in regards to how the Sword was not as important to his plans, which tends to ignore what Claude himself admitted. 

Perhaps you should be more clear to what you're trying to say, rather than saying one thing, expecting that we're to get that it means the other way. 

Just saying.

4 minutes ago, Crysta said:

No, not every side. Bad people with outright selfish and greedy reasons do exist throughout 3H.

It isn't only Rhea's perspective we get to see. Why do you think Thales calls him a thief?

Additionally, there is no evidence in the game that suggests Nemesis is under mind control, or that the Agarthans have deployed such a spell/technology in the past or in the game.

Did Byleth not tell Dimitri in AM that even bandits have stories? 

Just cause Agarthans and Rhea call Nemesis a bandit doesn't mean that he lacks a story or a perspective. As I said, if he was someone that only desired power for the sake of power, he'd have conquered Fodlan in an instant. Yet he does nothing despite all that power until Wilhelm starts a war.

Nemesis's eyes are glowing red, his voice is echoed, etc. How is that NOT an indication that there's been Agarthan tampering exactly? 

[Jotari]

14 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I fail to see how the circumstances between Seiros and Edelgard is at all different as I would definitely describe Edelgard as starting a rebellion against a ruling class that is acting like tyrants. I noticed that there are salvageable points with the church of Seiros and their doctrine, it just need to not be enforced by law in an absolute fashion. 

I knew after I left that this would be a point brought up. The difference is between hard power and soft power. Edelgard is ruling against a soft power authority figure, while Serios rebelled against a hard power authority figure (though I see the conversation has expanded to talk about whether it was a rebellion or if the empire was established outside of Nemesis's lands, it seems obscure either way, though I think the distribution of houses is actually a decent amount of evidence to suggest where Nemesis's area of control was. Though one has to question why Nemesis didn't expand beyond the north as his personality definitely seems like he'd have no qualms about it and he absolutely had the power to do so before Serios showed up).

Now that's just the difference in action. In terms or morality I don't think we can actually say whether Serios's rebellion was justified. Nemesis by everything we know about him was a pretty shitty dude, but he actually might have been an excellent king. He even has some good press in the modern day being known as the King of Liberation, which is a pretty positive title. What did he liberate them from? Why didn't Sothis sort that out?

We also don't really know why (or if it's even true that) the Elites started fighting among themselves. The fact that they are all united together for Verdant Wind's final boss suggests...I don't know what it suggests to be honest. That the fact that they fought with each other is a complete lie? That the fighting was minor and they all united again against Seiros? That they're all just Agarthan brainwashed puppets? One quote from Claude backs up that last suggestion, but I'm not sure Claude can be considered an expert, the question of how also comes to mind. *shrug* My main point is we don't actually know enough to say whether what Seiros was doing was right or not. At the very least it was motivated more by revenge rather than an attempt to bring peace or for the sake of conquest.

8 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

False. It was an expansionist. Hell, even the library book states that Wilhelm started the war and destroyed any house that dared to have more power than his. And this war lasted for 66 years. Nemesis never ruled over Fodlan ever. The idea that he and the Elites wanted to conquer the continent was a lie by the Church. 

Also, in regards to those commandments, once you realize the context of the fake religion, you realize that Rhea is everything Lonato called her: an infidel. 

Rhea is not a true believer of the religion. 

Saying the religion is fake isn't entirely accurate. Sothis is an actual figure with near godlike power. And Rhea earnestly believes she can being Sothis back. The main lies are the fact that Sothis still has influence in the world (something Rhea is desperately trying to make true again) and that she created human beings to begin with.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Saying the religion is fake isn't entirely accurate. Sothis is an actual figure with near godlike power. And Rhea earnestly believes she can being Sothis back. The main lies are the fact that Sothis still has influence in the world (something Rhea is desperately trying to make true again) and that she created human beings to begin with.

The little details alter EVERYTHING when it comes to religion, I'm afraid. 

You have to look at this from the perspective of an ACTUAL believer. To the devout, how does it look like if it turns out that Sothis is not this omnipotent deity that blessed the world with Crests and Relics, or the other things, but was, in fact, dead the entire time, doesn't bless anything at all, and ISN'T actually watching over them or Fodlan?

It changes EVERYTHING. 

Just because Rhea is TRYING to revive Sothis doesn't change that the religion is overall a lie. The context in religion matters. 

Because this is what makes the Goddess Sothis from the religion and the progenitor god Sothis that Rhea knows to be two completely separate entities. They are NOT the same.

Meaning that already makes Rhea someone that violates ALL the commandments of the religion. 

So yes, she is, factually, an infidel by the Church's laws. This makes Lonato the actual pious man that acted righteously under the Church's law.

 

[Crysta]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

Except that's not what you were saying back then. Least not to that wording. You were overall speaking in regards to how the Sword was not as important to his plans, which tends to ignore what Claude himself admitted. 

That's what I mean by not putting all his eggs in that one basket, so I'm not really arguing anything different now. Clearly Nemesis didn't do that, either, and that's what you're arguing.

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Just cause Agarthans and Rhea call Nemesis a bandit doesn't mean that he lacks a story or a perspective.

You're assigning a perspective to him more than letting the narrative show it. You're presenting "it could be this" when there's little evidence put forward suggesting it's a logical conclusion. And actually evidence contradicting it. Rhea has plenty of reason to lie considering that's exactly what she did with him, but Thales doesn't have much of a motivation to lie about him to Edelgard (who, funnily enough, seems to disagree).

7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Did Byleth not tell Dimitri in AM that even bandits have stories? 

They have stories. Doesn't mean they're not exactly how they're depicted. That there's always an alternative, equally justified viewpoint.

8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Just cause Agarthans and Rhea call Nemesis a bandit doesn't mean that he lacks a story or a perspective. As I said, if he was someone that only desired power for the sake of power, he'd have conquered Fodlan in an instant. Yet he does nothing despite all that power until Wilhelm starts a war. 

Again, we're clearly missing huge chunks of history here.

9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Nemesis's eyes are glowing red, his voice is echoed, etc. How is that NOT an indication that there's been Agarthan tampering exactly? 

It's up to you to provide proof that it's anything beyond obviously reviving him.

[Axel987]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

That's debatable. Cause he's being supported by the Agarthans, so there's some level of Agarthan influence on him. Or simply put that the reanimation of him was him clinging to the memory he last recalled, with Seiros stabbing him repeatedly to death reminding him of the Red Canyon, so he acts on that.

Except that's not what you were saying back then. Least not to that wording. You were overall speaking in regards to how the Sword was not as important to his plans, which tends to ignore what Claude himself admitted. 

Perhaps you should be more clear to what you're trying to say, rather than saying one thing, expecting that we're to get that it means the other way. 

Just saying.

Did Byleth not tell Dimitri in AM that even bandits have stories? 

Just cause Agarthans and Rhea call Nemesis a bandit doesn't mean that he lacks a story or a perspective. As I said, if he was someone that only desired power for the sake of power, he'd have conquered Fodlan in an instant. Yet he does nothing despite all that power until Wilhelm starts a war.

Nemesis's eyes are glowing red, his voice is echoed, etc. How is that NOT an indication that there's been Agarthan tampering exactly? 

The Agarthan supporting him is also quite far away and nothing changes if he gets killed outside of no more Demonic Beast reinforcements appearing. He even awakens without an Agarthan actually needing to do it, outside of Thales kamikazing his own stronghold. Now him acting on the last thing he remembers; Seiros killing him? That's PROBABLY what actually is going on.

Still doesn't change my point that this is more indicative of his character and corroborates what we're told about the actual him from not only Rhea but Thales too.

[Jotari]

11 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The little details alter EVERYTHING when it comes to religion, I'm afraid. 

You have to look at this from the perspective of an ACTUAL believer. To the devout, how does it look like if it turns out that Sothis is not this omnipotent deity that blessed the world with Crests and Relics, or the other things, but was, in fact, dead the entire time, doesn't bless anything at all, and ISN'T actually watching over them or Fodlan?

It changes EVERYTHING. 

Just because Rhea is TRYING to revive Sothis doesn't change that the religion is overall a lie. The context in religion matters. 

Because this is what makes the Goddess Sothis from the religion and the progenitor god Sothis that Rhea knows to be two completely separate entities. They are NOT the same.

Meaning that already makes Rhea someone that violates ALL the commandments of the religion. 

So yes, she is, factually, an infidel by the Church's laws. This makes Lonato the actual pious man that acted righteously under the Church's law.

 

Well Rhea can't be an infidel because her list of commandments has an "Unless Rhea says so" clause. My point is that Rhea didn't make up a bunch of shit. Sothis is a real individual and the Nabathans could perform real miracles that got the people of the early empire on their side. The religion has some falsities, but the religion itself is not fake. Rhea is acting in accordance with the supposed will of a figure she worships. The lies are not insignificant, but also neither are the truths.

Basically it's not Scientology.

7 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

The Agarthan supporting him is also quite far away and nothing changes if he gets killed outside of no more Demonic Beast reinforcements appearing. He even awakens without an Agarthan actually needing to do it, outside of Thales kamikazing his own stronghold. Now him acting on the last thing he remembers; Seiros killing him? That's PROBABLY what actually is going on.

Still doesn't change my point that this is more indicative of his character and corroborates what we're told about the actual him from not only Rhea but Thales too.

We don't know is that's actually true. Just because we don't see one in the cutscene doesn't mean they aren't there (for example any FMV in Verdant Wind where Claude is absent because Silver Snow reasons). The fact that an Agarthan is fighting alongside him is suggestive of something. Suggestive of what I don't know, the entire plot line is all rather silly. Him having motivations that align with them and him being brainwashed by them seem equally as likely. The Agrathans definitely woke up him and support what's he's doing though.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

5 minutes ago, Crysta said:

That's what I mean by not putting all his eggs in that one basket, so I'm not really arguing anything different now. Clearly Nemesis didn't do that, either, and that's what you're arguing.

You're assigning a perspective to him more than letting the narrative show it. You're presenting "it could be this" when there's little evidence put forward suggesting it's a logical conclusion. And actually evidence contradicting it. Rhea has plenty of reason to lie considering that's exactly what she did with him, but Thales doesn't have much of a motivation to lie about him to Edelgard (who, funnily enough, seems to disagree).

They have stories. Doesn't mean they're not exactly how they're depicted. That there's always an alternative, equally justified viewpoint.

Again, we're clearly missing huge chunks of history here.

It's up to you to provide proof that it's anything beyond obviously reviving him.

 

4 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

The Agarthan supporting him is also quite far away and nothing changes if he gets killed outside of no more Demonic Beast reinforcements appearing. He even awakens without an Agarthan actually needing to do it, outside of Thales kamikazing his own stronghold. Now him acting on the last thing he remembers; Seiros killing him? That's PROBABLY what actually is going on.

Still doesn't change my point that this is more indicative of his character and corroborates what we're told about the actual him from not only Rhea but Thales too.

Overall, this is basically like how Hanneman and Hubert's support went.

What happened DID happen. Facts are facts.

However, this doesn't change how there are simply several inconsistencies toward what others insist. If Nemesis had always been someone that sought to have power for the sake of power, then world conquest would already be part of his agenda. But as I indicated, there's been over 72 years where Nemesis never acted on this world conquest. He's referred to as a King by Maurice, and Nemesis had been able to rally an army together to wage war against Rhea's forces for many decades. 

One thing I stand by is that the Church and the Nabateans maintain a lie that Nemesis sought world domination. But there's too much inconsistency in regards to that. 

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Well Rhea can't be an infidel because her list of commandments has an "Unless Rhea says so" clause. My point is that Rhea didn't make up a bunch of shit. Sothis is a real individual and the Nabathans could perform real miracles that got the people of the early empire on their side. The religion has some falsities, but the religion itself is not fake. Rhea is acting in accordance with the supposed will of a figure she worships. The lies are not insignificant, but also neither are the truths.

Basically it's not Scientology.

Then basically RHEA is projecting herself as the goddess then, which just pushes Edelgard's point that Rhea is the false goddess. 

 

And no. You don't seem to comprehend the weight religion is. Everything about religion is labeled under the concept of faith. Belief. 

Saying that TECHNICALLY that there's a Sothis doesn't change that the actual truth is that Sothis is dead, does not bless anything, neither Crests nor Relics, nor crops for that matter, and everything else regarding the religion, then no, your technicality fails.

You're being too forgiving on how Rhea used religion under the concept of a technicality, which does not apply in regards to religion. 

There's a reason why Black Magic is "Reason" and White Magic is "Faith". They operate under different conditions. 

When it comes to religion, lies are VERY significant. You're severely underestimating how serious lying about religion is. 

[Jotari]

7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Overall, this is basically like how Hanneman and Hubert's support went.

What happened DID happen. Facts are facts.

However, this doesn't change how there are simply several inconsistencies toward what others insist. If Nemesis had always been someone that sought to have power for the sake of power, then world conquest would already be part of his agenda. But as I indicated, there's been over 72 years where Nemesis never acted on this world conquest. He's referred to as a King by Maurice, and Nemesis had been able to rally an army together to wage war against Rhea's forces for many decades. 

One thing I stand by is that the Church and the Nabateans maintain a lie that Nemesis sought world domination. But there's too much inconsistency in regards to that. 

Then basically RHEA is projecting herself as the goddess then, which just pushes Edelgard's point that Rhea is the false goddess. 

 

And no. You don't seem to comprehend the weight religion is. Everything about religion is labeled under the concept of faith. Belief. 

Saying that TECHNICALLY that there's a Sothis doesn't change that the actual truth is that Sothis is dead, does not bless anything, neither Crests nor Relics, nor crops for that matter, and everything else regarding the religion, then no, your technicality fails.

You're being too forgiving on how Rhea used religion under the concept of a technicality, which does not apply in regards to religion. 

There's a reason why Black Magic is "Reason" and White Magic is "Faith". They operate under different conditions. 

When it comes to religion, lies are VERY significant. You're severely underestimating how serious lying about religion is. 

I'm not underestimating the weight of the seriousness of it, I'm contesting the label designating it.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Jotari said:

I'm not underestimating the weight of the seriousness of it, I'm contesting the label designating it.

No, you're "reasoning" with it, which contradicts how religion works. Religion works on "faith", not "reason". 

Saying that the religion is NOT fake because of a technically operates under "reason", but you're not focusing on how the truth actually defies what the religion has people "believe" in. 

It's called a fake religion because the faith, the belief in it, is false. People are believing in something that isn't actually there doing what they think its doing. 

That's the severity of lying about religion. 

So no, Rhea is 100% an infidel.

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

No, you're "reasoning" with it, which contradicts how religion works. Religion works on "faith", not "reason". 

Saying that the religion is NOT fake because of a technically operates under "reason", but you're not focusing on how the truth actually defies what the religion has people "believe" in. 

It's called a fake religion because the faith, the belief in it, is false. People are believing in something that isn't actually there doing what they think its doing. 

That's the severity of lying about religion. 

So no, Rhea is 100% an infidel.

And you're ignoring the fact that Rhea actually is a devout believer and worshiper of Sothis. Saying it's a fake religion suggests it's something like Scientology, a con made up to manipulate people, which isn't the case. It is manipulating people, but there's an actual real god involved that Rhea actively believes she's expressing the will of. Rhea is a believer.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Jotari said:

And you're ignoring the fact that Rhea actually is a devout believer and worshiper of Sothis. Saying it's a fake religion suggests it's something like Scientology, a con made up to manipulate people, which isn't the case. It is manipulating people, but there's an actual real god involved that Rhea actively believes she's expressing the will of. Rhea is a believer.

Rhea preaches things to keep people believing, but she knows that what she says are all lies. SHe's not a TRUE believer. She only wishes to revive her mother, to which she confesses is just her selfish desire to be with her again. It's not some case of how the religion believes that the goddess will return and only left cause of mankind's greed. 

Rhea made the religion up fro the very beginning just to get people to help her get revenge on Nemesis. The purpose of the Church changed since the War of Heroes, sure, but before that, she merely used the religion as a tool for revenge.