The True Tragedy of Three Houses

[omegaxis1]

6 minutes ago, Cyan1456 said:

I feel like people are ignoring the fact that she unambiguously views the Kingdom and Alliance as illegitimate, she says so herself in her first few lines at the monastery and even includes that fact in her manifesto. 

She never says that. In fact, what you said is not in the manifesto, and the first part which I bet is what happens in the prologue, is once more something lost in translation, cause Treehouse sucks.

6 minutes ago, Cyan1456 said:

And again, she didn't need to attack the Church it already doesn't have power in Adrestia. According to the timeline the Church has been dissolved for over 180 years and the most they do about it is hope relations will smooth over once Edelgard goes to Garreg Mach.

You are referring to the insurrection that the Southern Church did, but the Central Church still held ties to the Empire. It was even stated that the Central Church rekindled some relations with the Empire as a result of that Insurrection. The Empire did not sever ties with the Church completely. That's why Arundel was a devout believer before being replaced by Thales, and he sent huge donations to the Church. And why it's stated in CF that declaring war n the Church caused much discord among the people in Adrestia.

6 minutes ago, Cyan1456 said:

If we're talking about beliefs, both Claude and Dmitri share similar views of inequality, if Edelgard were to just speak to them it's likely they would've included solving Crest inequalities in their reforms.

Not quite. Least not with Dimitri. Dimitri still believes in nobility and Crests, but simply believing that people have their own roles to play. Nobles have power because nobles like Gautier protect the land from Sreng. He wants the two to acknowledge one another. Which is like asking nobles to thank farmers for growing their food.

6 minutes ago, Cyan1456 said:

There's also the fact that she captures Rhea in every route except her own at the very start of that 5 year gap. She easily could've stopped there and made demands of the Church. Tensions on the border would be rough for a couple of years but it wouldn't escalate to that level of fighting in-game.

Could she? I mean, we never get why things happen as it does in the other routes. Personally, I find the concept of how the other routes go to be a bit silly at times, like abandoning Garreg Mach. 

2 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Financing Haneman research untill he find a way to put crests into people, then give it to a large enought amount of soldiers. Then declare your discovery to the world and allow anyone to get a crest for free. If some nobles don't allow their subjects to receive the crest, do a show of force of the Legion of Crested Supersoldiers, such as publicly showcasing a dozen of Blaydid soldiers lifting something enormous. If that is not enought, send them to destroy one of the corrupt house. At worst you need to crush a couple ofnthem or before the others realize that they can't win. 

Yeah, Hanneman isn't that genius enough. Even with what he managed to get out of Agarthan tech from the war, and help from others, and still all he amounted to was developing tools that can be used without Crests, which is similar to the Arrow of Indra. However, your idea overall relies on military affairs and superweapons, basically just making more war. 

[Flere210]

My altermative plan was to gather the corrupt nobles in one place and pull an Arvis. Still a morally awful thing, but imo better than a war. You can't expect people like Jeritza's father to became good people, you either kill them or wait till they die of old age. I aknwledge that. But if 1000 innocent people have to be killed to kill him, i would not do that untill a better way to kill him is found.

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

My altermative plan was to gather the corrupt nobles in one place and pull an Arvis. Still a morally awful thing, but imo better than a war. You can't expect people like Jeritza's father to became good people, you either kill them or wait till they die of old age. I aknwledge that. But if 1000 innocent people have to be killed to kill him, i would not do that untill a better way to kill him is found.

How do you think Arvis even pulled his case? He had to use a lot of war and conflict to set things up. 

You can't get rid of corrupt without getting innocents involved. 

It's like how the immune system in the body fights disease. They don't JUST target the viruses. Your own immune cells causes collateral damages as well. 

[Flere210]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

How do you think Arvis even pulled his case? He had to use a lot of war and conflict to set things up. 

There are many occasions where Nobles gather, just organize a big event and then "Dimitri iconic quote".

[MithRevan]

8 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

But if 1000 innocent people have to be killed to kill him, i would not do that untill a better way to kill him is found.

But here's the problem, what if by waiting and TRYING to find a better way, it takes 20 years to start change and each year 100  people die due to corrupt nobility? That'd be 2000 people killed before things START to get better, assuming there is a peaceful solution (and given what we see in Three Houses, I'm not convinced a peaceful way was possible, even Claude was preparing a nuclear deterrent hoping that'd prevent it, indicating he knew the pushback he'd receive).

Edelgard believed that the sacrifices in the short term would be worth it in the long-term and we sadly don't have enough information to really say. We don't know how many people suffered during the 1000 years of the current system up to the current point, we don't know how long it would take (or even if it was possible) for change to occur without the war, and we don't even know just how much loss of life occurred in the wars of CF (which does sound less bloody) or AM/VW/SS.

[Flere210]

4 minutes ago, MithRevan said:

But here's the problem, what if by waiting and TRYING to find a better way, it takes 20 years to start change and each year 100  people die due to corrupt nobility? That'd be 2000 people killed before things START to get better, assuming there is a peaceful solution (and given what we see in Three Houses, I'm not convinced a peaceful way was possible, even Claude was preparing a nuclear deterrent hoping that'd prevent it, indicating he knew the pushback he'd receive).

An a war would kill easily 20000+ people, wich are 200 years worth of corrupt nobility. Can any human being predict correctly how thing will be 200 years from now? Because this is how long the golden age has to last to make war the right choice by an utilitarian standpoint.

 

Edit: 100 people per year is arguably a lowball, but even if they are 300, we would still need a long golden age to break even. The adoption system in the Roman Empire lasted around 80 years for example, and what came after is not exactly ideal.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Flere210

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

An a war would kill easily 20000+ people, wich are 200 years worth of corrupt nobility. Can any human being predict correctly how thing will be 200 years from now? Because this is how long the golden age has to last to make war the right choice by an utilitarian standpoint.

The argument is assuming how long it would take for something to even start to change. If a war kills a thousand people, but removes the nobility, something without war would take 20 years, and 100 people die, then you let 2000 people die in the course of 20 years, when your war killed only 1000, but changed things so that 1000 others survive. 

Can any human predict if there ARE any peaceful alternatives when it comes to corruption? And will the lives sacrifices pursuing peaceful approaches be better than the lives sacrificed by fighting a war?

Edelgard had power, and she saw that the world was corrupt with injustice to the people. So she wanted to use the her power to actually fighting against the injustice. 

You have to assume a LOT of things to happen for a peaceful resolution. You cannot say that peaceful resolution would have happened soon. Not with the many, many, MANY layers of corruption. The system of Fodlan had become rotten to the very core. It's not a thing that can be fixed by simply talking things out. To address the corruption, everyone has to really unite as a single mind. 

But there's very weak communication in Fodlan. 

I blame the lack of a printing press.

Had Rhea actually allowed the metal mold printer to go through, commoners would actually have become more literate, and people would have become much more self-reliant. Information would go through much easier, and people would be far more open to diplomacy. 

[Flere210]

I am just saying that if the solution is worse than the problem, then the problem should stay, as awful as it is. 

Sometimes the lesser evil is to do nothing because any other option is a greater evil. 

I think that the Fodlan nobility had to be much worse than what was displayed to justify a war.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Flere210 said:

I am just saying that if the solution is worse than the problem, then the problem should stay, as awful as it is. 

Sometimes the lesser evil is to do nothing because any other option is a greater evil. 

I think that the Fodlan nobility had to be much worse than what was displayed to justify a war.

Nobles rebel against their emperor. Nobles conspire to assassinate their king. Nobles frame an innocent group of people, and then go off to perform genocide on them. Nobles kill commoners that deal with other nobles they don't like. 

How is ANY of this not worse enough? One of the things include genocide here. 

[Flere210]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

Nobles rebel against their emperor. Nobles conspire to assassinate their king. Nobles frame an innocent group of people, and then go off to perform genocide on them. Nobles kill commoners that deal with other nobles they don't like. 

How is ANY of this not worse enough? One of the things include genocide here. 

Because most of it is made by speciphic people, and that the genocide has been commited by the people on their own volition. To me everyone that tought that killing Duscurians in mass was an appropriate response is equally at blame, because obviously not every duscurian was equally at blame even if the accusations were true. 

 

I compare whit how the french revolution is depicted in media: it's clearly shown that there are thousands if not milions, of people starving to death while the noble waste all their time partying. We see something like that only in Ferdiand Paralogue, and does not look like something that happen everywhere.

What i hate about 3H is that for all it'd world builimg it never really dwell on the lives of commoners, whatever they have food, security, how broad or limited their freedoms are, whatever they own land or are under serfdom and many things like that. I need to know those things to make an opinion about nobility, things like "Varley torture his Daughter and Glouchester killed some merchants" are way too annedoctical.

[MithRevan]

18 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Nobles rebel against their emperor. Nobles conspire to assassinate their king. Nobles frame an innocent group of people, and then go off to perform genocide on them. Nobles kill commoners that deal with other nobles they don't like. 

How is ANY of this not worse enough? One of the things include genocide here. 

Except I'd argue it's just your opinion that the 'solution is worse than the problem'. We don't have enough information to truly say, IMO, since we don't know how many people suffered under the current system for the 1000 years it existed without any real change, we don't know how many people would have been affected by it in the time it took for people to HOPEFULLY find some way to change it (with no guarantee that change was possible, or that war wouldn't occur anyway). I personally believe it is entirely possible that the 5 years of war (particularly CF war) caused far less overall death than the system has over its time.

I'll also point out that war is the go-to answer in Fodlan for a reason. Rhea started a war that was 20x longer than Edelgard's war with the War of Heroes that resulted in the current messed up system. Loog started a similar length war to break apart of the Empire, the Alliance had a 4x longer war to break apart from the Kingdom, I'd argue all of them had worse reasoning for their war. Edelgard's you can argue whether it was perhaps too extreme a response, but nobody can truly say that there weren't massive problems going on.

Edit: Mistakenly quoted Omegaaxis1, meant to quote this from Flere210

I am just saying that if the solution is worse than the problem, then the problem should stay, as awful as it is. 

Sometimes the lesser evil is to do nothing because any other option is a greater evil. 

I think that the Fodlan nobility had to be much worse than what was displayed to justify a war.

Edited February 25, 2020 by MithRevan
Mistakenly quoted Omegaaxis1, meant to quote Flere210

[MrPerson0]

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

In fact, what you said is not in the manifesto, and the first part which I bet is what happens in the prologue, is once more something lost in translation, cause Treehouse sucks.

I notice that you keep on deflecting translation issues, but from what I recall, doesn't IS approve these? If they see something they don't like, they should be able to tell NoA to retroactively change them, such as the Bernadetta support.

[omegaxis1]

15 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Because most of it is made by speciphic people, and that the genocide has been commited by the people on their own volition. To me everyone that tought that killing Duscurians in mass was an appropriate response is equally at blame, because obviously not every duscurian was equally at blame even if the accusations were true. 

 

I compare whit how the french revolution is depicted in media: it's clearly shown that there are thousands if not milions, of people starving to death while the noble waste all their time partying. We see something like that only in Ferdiand Paralogue, and does not look like something that happen everywhere.

What i hate about 3H is that for all it'd world builimg it never really dwell on the lives of commoners, whatever they have food, security, how broad or limited their freedoms are, whatever they own land or are under serfdom and many things like that. I need to know those things to make an opinion about nobility, things like "Varley torture his Daughter and Glouchester killed some merchants" are way too annedoctical.

I'm sorry, but if you have to pretend that genocide is acceptable because one nation did it, there's something seriously messed up here. Genocide is not how you respond. The people of Duscur being to "blame" does not justify genocide. It's one thing to go to war. But this wasn't war. This was genocide. They slaughtered the people, women and children included, without remorse. 

This is why I really can't Faerghus as a nation. It's toxic and just ran on violence. It tries to preach about chivalry and righteousness, but is the one that did the worst thing by committing genocide. Hell, frankly, anyone can justify wanting to put Faerghus down as a nation for it's crimes. 

Just now, MrPerson0 said:

I notice that you keep on deflecting translation issues, but from what I recall, doesn't IS approve these? If they see something they don't like, they should be able to tell NoA to retroactively change them, such as the Bernadetta support.

Not really. Like, it's absurd that what they do fix is worse than what they leave behind. 

Here, this is what Edelgard actually says in the original, compared to what the EN version says:

Quote

EN:

Edelgard: A wise choice. Though the Empire has fallen from its former glory, the other regions are merely offshoots that pale in comparison.

-

JP:

Edelgard: Heh, of course. Despite the decline, what the Empire has cultivated is unmatched in the world.

Does this sound like the same thing? 

Edited February 25, 2020 by omegaxis1

[MrPerson0]

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Does this sound like the same thing? 

Nope, but still, with how closely/easy it is for the original company is working with translators nowadays, they have to approve these translations.

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Nope, but still, with how closely/easy it is for the original company is working with translators nowadays, they have to approve these translations.

Not really. The localization team handles the localizations. Treehouse is cheaper due to being owned by Nintendo. How is IS gonna go and "proofread" these things and make sure it's accurate?

They made the dumbest typo of all things in Cornelia's death in CF, with how they forgot to type the "y" in the word "your" and instead it was written as "our" which entirely reverses the meaning of the sentence. 

The amount of mistranslations there are, it's abundantly clear that Treehouse doesn't have what you're thinking. 

Edited February 25, 2020 by omegaxis1

[MithRevan]

1 minute ago, MrPerson0 said:

I notice that you keep on deflecting translation issues, but from what I recall, doesn't IS approve these? If they see something they don't like, they should be able to tell NoA to retroactively change them, such as the Bernadetta support.

I doubt IS individually go through the game in every language and approve everything, more likely they trust the translators. Changing lines would require them to get the Voice Actor(s) back in which would cost them money, I think, so I doubt they're going to have them do it. Bernadetta's support change revolved around cutting what was said, not adding new stuff, right? I find it hard to imagine that they are okay with twisting Cornelia's dialogue from basically "I see, we thought we were playing you, but you were playing us" into "all according to plan". It's literally the exact opposite of what was said and makes no sense in context (she was surprised to hear they were coming, and Arundel was clearly upset, neither of which make sense if it's all according to plan)

[Flere210]

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I'm sorry, but if you have to pretend that genocide is acceptable because one nation did it, there's something seriously messed up here. Genocide is not how you respond. The people of Duscur being to "blame" does not justify genocide. It's one thing to go to war. But this wasn't war. This was genocide. They slaughtered the people, women and children included, without remorse. 

 

I wanted to say the opposite of that. Not that no one is accountable, but that everyone is. If you tell some people that i did something awful and they kill me in retalliation, the fact that you lied won't absolve them. Similarly, no matter wich lies they have been fed, the people, nobles and commoners, are still guilty of the genocide, at leas as much as Lamber's killers.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Flere210 said:

I wanted to say the opposite of that. Not that no one is accountable, but that everyone is. If you tell some people that i did something awful and they kill me in retalliation, the fact that you lied won't absolve them. Similarly, no matter wich lies they have been fed, the people, nobles and commoners, are still guilty of the genocide, at leas as much as Lamber's killers.

They are. The worst part is that they aren't actually even sorry for it. 

Is it kind of sad that Blue Lions talks a bit more of the racism issue in Fodlan than Claude's does, when his entire issue is racism?

[MrPerson0]

15 minutes ago, MithRevan said:

I doubt IS individually go through the game in every language and approve everything, more likely they trust the translators.

Maybe not all of the languages, but they would probably go through the most popular one. There's a reason that they changed Bernadetta's support, even if it was just cutting out a voiceclip, we just don't know exactly who was the one to order it. In the end, for better or for worse, the changes are official.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, MrPerson0 said:

Maybe not all of the languages, but they would probably go through the most popular one. There's a reason that they changed Bernadetta's support, even if it was just cutting out a voiceclip, we just don't know exactly who was the one to order it. In the end, for better or for worse, the changes are official.

Official, yes. But whether they were truly approved or not doesn't change that there're massive changes into the way things are said. Edelgard and Claude genuinely suffer the most of this. It's why people try and criticize Edelgard for things she says that are actually things that are lost in translation.

[MithRevan]

3 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Maybe not all of the languages, but they would probably go through the most popular one. There's a reason that they changed Bernadetta's support, even if it was just cutting out a voiceclip, we just don't know exactly who was the one to order it. In the end, for better or for worse, the changes are official.

I'm still not sure they have someone go through every single dialogue in the game even for the most popular language. I can't believe that someone read Cornelia's line (there are some others but Cornelia's is the biggest offender IMO) and said 'That is okay' because it clearly doesn't when, again, her comments before and Arundel's after make it clear that is not true.

[Crysta]

Several times I've seen fans hold up a localization difference as the golden nugget that explains so much.

Then I read it and go "really? you think that changes everything?" 

Which very slight difference in actuality are we looking at now?

[omegaxis1]

2 hours ago, Crysta said:

Several times I've seen fans hold up a localization difference as the golden nugget that explains so much.

Then I read it and go "really? you think that changes everything?" 

Which very slight difference in actuality are we looking at now?

Golden nugget? It'd be one thing if this was one or two. It'd be one thing if it was minor inconveniences.

It's another thing if it's a seriously constant thing, and more than anything, changes the entire meaning of the conversation. 

A typo reversing the entire meaning of a line of dialogue that contradicts how the story presents it.

A line that makes someone praising someone to mocking someone. A line where people like to hype on to criticize someone is actually something that was entirely lost in translation. 

If you keep doing these kinds of BS, it's ridiculously messed up.

[Crysta]

English is a complicated language. It is very easy to make a mistake, because it doesn't follow the same rules other languages do.

But this game? In my estimation as an entry level editor who routinely tells native speakers how they can more clearly convey what they're trying to say, they've done a good job.

The thing that bothers me the most is that they regularly don't put spaces after ellipses.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Crysta

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Crysta said:

English is a complicated language. It is very easy to make a mistake, because it doesn't follow the same rules other languages do.

But this game? In my estimation as an entry level editor who routinely tells native speakers how they can more clearly convey what they're trying to say, they've done a good job.

This honestly should have been the game that we should have had 8-4 localize. Sure, they aren't without flaws, but they give way better quality work than what Treehouse gives. It's annoying that Echoes got 8-4, but this game got Treehouse.