The True Tragedy of Three Houses

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Darkmoon6789 said:

That is exactly the problem with your logic, that is how we are raised TODAY, Edelgard wasn't raised in the modern world, neither were anyone else in this game. Therefore I will judge them only by the standards appropriate for the time period. I'm not entirely convinced that our extreme aversion to conflict is necessarily always the right thing anyway. Our due respect to national sovereignity sometimes lead us to be complacent to the abuses of human rights committed by other countries. 

I mean, by this point, we're literally just caressing the nuke button, ready bring about the apocalypse. 

Because of that, literally no one is willing to actually fight injustice in other nations where injustice is happening. You honestly cannot compare back then to today. Where Edelgard is, she had the ability to try and fight against injustice now. But in today's standards with nukes, I would say that even Edelgard would not invest in that. 

[Darkmoon6789]

56 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I mean, by this point, we're literally just caressing the nuke button, ready bring about the apocalypse. 

Because of that, literally no one is willing to actually fight injustice in other nations where injustice is happening. You honestly cannot compare back then to today. Where Edelgard is, she had the ability to try and fight against injustice now. But in today's standards with nukes, I would say that even Edelgard would not invest in that. 

That is exactly my point, we shouldn't judge Edelgard by the standards of today, things just aren't the same in her world, in her world, she still have the ability to fight against injustice. I think only one faction in her world has nukes, or at least an equivalent and Edelgard make sure to not become their target until the war is over.

I wonder who Edelgard would be if she lived in the modern world, you are probably right in that she wouldn't cause a war in modern context, but I still think she would be some kind of political activist given her personality. 

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Darkmoon6789 said:

That is exactly my point, we shouldn't judge Edelgard by the standards of today, things just aren't the same in her world, in her world, she still have the ability to fight against injustice. I think only one faction in her world has nukes, or at least an equivalent and Edelgard make sure to not become their target until the war is over.

I wonder who Edelgard would be if she lived in the modern world, you are probably right in that she wouldn't cause a war in modern context, but I still think she would be some kind of political activist given her personality. 

Even the nukes of the Agarthans don't even reach the level of danger that modern nukes have. Cause the "nukes" the Agarthans have are just ICBMs. It's powerful and devastating, but not like an atom bomb that can cause literal radiation. Yeah, that's the other aspect of modern day nukes that are horrible: radiation poisoning. It doesn't just go boom, cause even after the boom, good luck living there with all that radiation around. 

If Edelgard lived in the modern world, I imagine more like how modern techniques are done, through the use of CIAs and such. It's literally Hubert's forte, fighting fights behind the scenes. 

[Darkmoon6789]

6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Even the nukes of the Agarthans don't even reach the level of danger that modern nukes have. Cause the "nukes" the Agarthans have are just ICBMs. It's powerful and devastating, but not like an atom bomb that can cause literal radiation. Yeah, that's the other aspect of modern day nukes that are horrible: radiation poisoning. It doesn't just go boom, cause even after the boom, good luck living there with all that radiation around. 

If Edelgard lived in the modern world, I imagine more like how modern techniques are done, through the use of CIAs and such. It's literally Hubert's forte, fighting fights behind the scenes. 

Secret agent Edelgard sounds awesome, she has already shown that she has the capability to be a spy or some kind of federal agent. I am so in love with this girl that the thought makes me swoon. If I knew a girl like her in real life she would be my soulmate

Yes, nuclear weapons are horrifying, which is why I hope they will never be used again. But they have served to keep the peace for better or worse. (But I do also feel like as a consequence we have lost the ability for open conflict as a way to fight against injustice)

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Secret agent Edelgard sounds awesome, she has already shown that she has the capability to be a spy or some kind of federal agent. I am so in love with this girl that the thought makes me swoon. If I knew a girl like her in real life she would be my soulmate

Yes, nuclear weapons are horrifying, which is why I hope they will never be used again. But they have served to keep the peace for better or worse. (But I do also feel like as a consequence we have lost the ability for open conflict as a way to fight against injustice)

Yeah. In fact, some could say that now it's impossible to change things because of how the nukes forced humanity into a period of stagnation. The war seems more toward a conflict of capitalism, where we just have to try and win through other means, all while dealing with terrorist attacks. 

[Etrurian emperor]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

The way she acts in the other routes are still part of her character though. Her decision to become emperor and begin the war are poor ones as evidence by the majority of outcomes. Only having Byleth with her gives her success.

Amusingly its actually somewhat of the other way around. Edelgard seems remarkably more successful without Byleth being around or on her side. 

In the sole route where Byleth sides with Edelgard the war effort goes remarkably worse for Edelgard. In Crimson Flower she's been stuck in a deadlock for five years without even a hint of progress. The borders at the start of Crimson flower are the same as the ones at the beginning of the story. Meanwhile in all the other routes Edelgard steamrolls the Church and the Alliance and only has to face an impotent alliance as her final threat. 

Rather than Byleth being the only reason Edelgard has success he's the one that takes her success away. In all other routes she's on the verge of victory and only Byleth's return turns the tables and ruins her. Without Byleth Claude can't fully unite the Alliance and without Byleth Dimitri remains a crazy hobo. Without Byleth, if everyone in Fodlan is left to their own devices then the default outcome would be an imperial victory. 

[Flere210]

It would be a slithers victory.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Flere210 said:

It would be a slithers victory.

Jury is out on that one, with how people are fine with writing them off as a non-issue and even insist that they are not a true threat, so what's preventing Edelgard from winning over them in the other routes? 

[Darkmoon6789]

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Jury is out on that one, with how people are fine with writing them off as a non-issue and even insist that they are not a true threat, so what's preventing Edelgard from winning over them in the other routes? 

Things worked out fine in Crimson flower

I do also think that the reason Edelgard was less effective with Byleth is that she wasn't willing to go as far in this route as she would otherwise thanks to her/his influence. This Edelgard keeps a moral high ground. She otherwise doesn't and doesn't use the slitherers to the same extent

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Darkmoon6789 said:

Things worked out fine in Crimson flower

I do also think that the reason Edelgard was less effective with Byleth is that she wasn't willing to go as far in this route as she would otherwise thanks to her/his influence. This Edelgard keeps a moral high ground. She otherwise doesn't and doesn't use the slitherers to the same extent

Well, as much of a moral high ground she can as the one that instigated the war. Cause she's done many morally wrong things.

But as you said, she's a human, and thus prone to mistakes.

Do people forget the saying?

Quote

"To err is human. To forgive, divine."

 

[Darkmoon6789]

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Well, as much of a moral high ground she can as the one that instigated the war. Cause she's done many morally wrong things.

But as you said, she's a human, and thus prone to mistakes.

Do people forget the saying?

 

I do think that her good intentions. Make her worthy of forgiveness. She isn't a bad girl at heart and I think this is what Rhea fails to see, Edelgard isn't some monster who is out to become a new false god like she thinks. It is actually ridiculous what kind of conclusions the Archbishop comes to. She certainly has jumping to conclusions in common with Dimitri. 

Granted, Edelgard could also be argued to be jumping to conclusions when it comes to her opposition. 

[Flere210]

I want the game to aknowledge that lords can do wrong, wich Three house never does. A game whit choice and route imo fail if does not make you feel awful for having choiced your given faction, wich to me never happened, partially because everyone you side againist became 10 times worse when you fight againist them, so you don't feel too bad about putting them down. 

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Flere210 said:

I want the game to aknowledge that lords can do wrong, wich Three house never does. A game whit choice and route imo fail if does not make you feel awful for having choiced your given faction, wich to me never happened, partially because everyone you side againist became 10 times worse when you fight againist them, so you don't feel too bad about putting them down. 

Depending on who you do or don't recruit, you DO feel bad.

[Darkmoon6789]

3 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

I want the game to aknowledge that lords can do wrong, wich Three house never does. A game whit choice and route imo fail if does not make you feel awful for having choiced your given faction, wich to me never happened, partially because everyone you side againist became 10 times worse when you fight againist them, so you don't feel too bad about putting them down. 

Are you kidding me? Every single Lord in the game does something wrong, you say it doesn't count because you always win? I actually did feel bad about putting down my opposition, even Rhea, and the death of Edelgard is literally always tragic to me, no matter what route

Edit: there is a reason I try to spare every person I can

Edited February 29, 2020 by Darkmoon6789

[Etrurian emperor]

32 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Jury is out on that one, with how people are fine with writing them off as a non-issue and even insist that they are not a true threat, so what's preventing Edelgard from winning over them in the other routes? 

I certainly don't see a scenario where the Slitherers win even without Byleth on Edelgard's side. They're just a single city of insane mole people with delusions of grandeur and nukes. The Slitherers are depicted as dangerous and deeply immoral but also as pretty incompetent. Dimitri can even foil their evil scheme and kill their leader by accident. 

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Etrurian emperor said:

I certainly don't see a scenario where the Slitherers win even without Byleth on Edelgard's side. They're just a single city of insane mole people with delusions of grandeur and nukes. The Slitherers are depicted as dangerous and deeply immoral but also as pretty incompetent. Dimitri can even foil their evil scheme and kill their leader by accident. 

When all you've done is plot in the shadows, and still plot in the shadows, never truly taking the lead on things, no matter how much success you gain, you lack the type of will to truly rule. And that's the Agarthans. 

Like, even the Insurrection of the Seven doesn't have Arundel as the known major power holder, but Duke Aegir. 

To go with some Star Wars thing, Palpatine does plot in the shadows, but he also does take the "lead" when he was the Supreme Chancellor. 

[Darkmoon6789]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

When all you've done is plot in the shadows, and still plot in the shadows, never truly taking the lead on things, no matter how much success you gain, you lack the type of will to truly rule. And that's the Agarthans. 

Like, even the Insurrection of the Seven doesn't have Arundel as the known major power holder, but Duke Aegir. 

To go with some Star Wars thing, Palpatine does plot in the shadows, but he also does take the "lead" when he was the Supreme Chancellor. 

They certainly have some dedication to remaining in the role of the hidden puppetmaster, a fatal mistake was to underestimate their puppet (Edelgard)

Their primary weakness is their sheer arrogance

[Flere210]

2 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Are you kidding me? Every single Lord in the game does something wrong, you say it doesn't count because you always win? I actually did feel bad about putting down my opposition, even Rhea, and the death of Edelgard is literally always tragic to me, no matter what route

Edit: there is a reason I try to spare every person I can

I mean that the game lack moments where you get seriously called out for siding whit someone. I don't mean Rhea yelling at you, but more something like having to kill sympathetic people that did nothing to deserve that and having the game calling you a bastard for that.

The only people you have to kill are: literally Oberstein, "kill every last one of them", Pope Arvis, the guy that transform into a demonic beast and "I swear that putting my close friend on a deathtrap was necessary to get the victory royale." 

I get the thematic reason why most character showcase their worst when you don't pick them, but this also make killing them like shooting a rabid dog instead of doing something really tragic 

 

8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Depending on who you do or don't recruit, you DO feel bad.

Wich is my problem, those moments exist only if you decide that they exist. If you play Valkirye profile: covenant of the plume (the srpg that does this best), no matter wich route you chose, you will witness tragedy because of the path you chose.

[Darkmoon6789]

2 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

I mean that the game lack moments where you get seriously called out for siding whit someone. I don't mean Rhea yelling at you, but more something like having to kill sympathetic people that did nothing to deserve that and having the game calling you a bastard for that.

The only people you have to kill are: literally Oberstein, "kill every last one of them", Pope Arvis, the guy that transform into a demonic beast and "I swear that putting my close friend on a deathtrap was necessary to get the victory royale." 

I get the thematic reason why most character showcase their worst when you don't pick them, but this also make killing them like shooting a rabid dog instead of doing something really tragic 

 

Wich is my problem, those moments exist only if you decide that they exist. If you play Valkirye profile: covenant of the plume (the srpg that does this best), no matter wich route you chose, you will witness tragedy because of the path you chose.

I did definitely kill some sympathetic people in my run of Crimson flower, Leonie, Hilda, Sylvain, I don't think these people are possible to spare. I don't need the game calling me a monster to feel bad. But I am glad that I didn't have to kill Flayn or Claude, and Lysithea

I also didn't think Edelgard came off as a rabid dog in any of her death scenes, maybe that is just a reflection of my affection for that girl, but I always feel awful seeing her die. Maybe that is because I have seen who she can be at her best. The poor girl either begs to be killed to end the war quicker or makes sure she is killed, even when spared, it is quite sad that in her stubborn ass, Edelgard always insist upon dying. But I do understand why

[omegaxis1]

17 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

They certainly have some dedication to remaining in the role of the hidden puppetmaster, a fatal mistake was to underestimate their puppet (Edelgard)

Their primary weakness is their sheer arrogance

They are too into being the puppetmaster that they no longer know what it is like to actually lead society on their own, or be prepared for what comes beyond. Actually, that might be the other major weakness. They are so much into their revenge that they don't know what comes after. Edelgard is looking at the after. 

[Darkmoon6789]

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

They are too into being the puppetmaster that they no longer know what it is like to actually lead society on their own, or be prepared for what comes beyond. Actually, that might be the other major weakness. They are so much into their revenge that they don't know what comes after. Edelgard is looking at the after. 

I don't think they planned for what happened after the war at all, they are literally that single minded when it comes to getting their revenge. It was over 1000 years ago. They actually did some ruling and it might have been even longer. Now that you mention it, they could have totally taken direct control of the empire but they didn't, preferring instead to raise a puppet (Edelgard) to involve herself for them. They could easily arrange having Arundel as Emperor

[Flere210]

22 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I also didn't think Edelgard came off as a rabid dog in any of her death scenes, maybe that is just a reflection of my affection for that girl, but I always feel awful seeing her die. Maybe that is because I have seen who she can be at her best. The poor girl either begs to be killed to end the war quicker or makes sure she is killed, even when spared, it is quite sad that in her stubborn ass, Edelgard always insist upon dying. But I do understand why

-put Bernadetta on that platform

-allow Arundhel to do has he please whit his territory

-force Brigid to cooperate whit her

-routinely employ demonic beasts

- transform into the hegenon

-the scene at the end of BL

 

 

 

As for the slithers. In term of military might they are by far the most powerful faction. They could have won every moment by just dropping a nuke on Garreg mach while we were there chilling. The comparisson whit Gilgamesh is very accurate, but for this very reason, you should always bet on Gilgamesh because the only person that can beat him is his own plot induced stupidity. 

 

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

As for the slithers. In term of military might they are by far the most powerful faction. They could have won every moment by just dropping a nuke on Garreg mach while we were there chilling. The comparisson whit Gilgamesh is very accurate, but for this very reason, you should always bet on Gilgamesh because the only person that can beat him is his own plot induced stupidity. 

You mean the place that was directly stated to have a barrier that redirected their nukes to Aillel? 

Also, given how the Agarthans actually show a case of trying to preserve their missiles, until Thales decided to go kamikaze, it's kind of clear that their's a restriction. 

Given how Thales didn't care if Shambhala blew up if their revenge was fulfilled, all the more reason to consider that using the missiles has dangerous consequences for the Shambhala.

[Darkmoon6789]

10 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

-put Bernadetta on that platform

-allow Arundhel to do has he please whit his territory

-force Brigid to cooperate whit her

-routinely employ demonic beasts

- transform into the hegenon

-the scene at the end of BL

 

 

 

As for the slithers. In term of military might they are by far the most powerful faction. They could have won every moment by just dropping a nuke on Garreg mach while we were there chilling. The comparisson whit Gilgamesh is very accurate, but for this very reason, you should always bet on Gilgamesh because the only person that can beat him is his own plot induced stupidity. 

 

I wish that people would stop bringing up that platform. I thought we already established that the whole Edelgard burned her to death thing quite a bit ridiculous. The actual situation is nowhere near as bad as people make it sound, to my understanding, it was a ballista platform, which she is qualified to operate and she didn't start burning bundle after she was already dead, and by hands other than Edelgard. Certain characters in Crimson flower has also been shown to transform into demonic beasts when they are desperate enough. And the only reason she stabbed Dimitri in the end is because she wanted to die and she tried to provoke him into killing her

Edit: plus all of those examples are from AM, so I just don't care. #not my Edelgard

Edited March 1, 2020 by Darkmoon6789

[Flere210]

6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

You mean the place that was directly stated to have a barrier that redirected their nukes to Aillel? 

Also, given how the Agarthans actually show a case of trying to preserve their missiles, until Thales decided to go kamikaze, it's kind of clear that their's a restriction. 

Given how Thales didn't care if Shambhala blew up if their revenge was fulfilled, all the more reason to consider that using the missiles has dangerous consequences for the Shambhala.

I admit that forgot that detail, but they can still nuke your army when they are in one place. And even if shamballa get destroyed they can just let it be, they can store the data in their computers and move away the important equipment, once the nukes land they won't need shamballa in the first place. And nuke are the tip of the iceberg whennit comes to their superior technology. But this can easily became a rant on magitek in general so i will stop there. 

My point is that i think that their superior technology more than make up for their numbers, if they used it well.

Edit: i don't think she burned bernie. I think she used her like the cheese on a mouse trap. Wich is not the same thing but is still a bad thing. And the transformation thing is the strike i used againist Dedue, so i believe that is not a good thing regardless of who does it.

 

Edited March 1, 2020 by Flere210