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The True Tragedy of Three Houses


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3 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

 

-allow Arundhel to do has he please whit his territory

I think the Mole Men having a tight grip on Adrestia and Edelgard a shortage of other allies is the 'why' here.

 

4 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

 

-routinely employ demonic beasts

- transform into the hegenon

You know, the first point is a bad mark, but actuallly being willing to suffer this processus herself... Well, being willing to suffer the fate inflicted to your soldiers is... Something at least?

 

6 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

-the scene at the end of BL

The name is Suicide by Cop. Aegir's treatment of her father probably taught her that surviving your defeat can only end in a most painful way.

 

7 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

-force Brigid to cooperate whit her

Church tries that too/Petra seems rather willing to cooperate in scenarios where she isn't recruited.

 

Ninja'd for the barrier but also,

Just now, Flere210 said:

I admit that forgot that detail, but they can still nuke your army when they are in one place. And even if shamballa get destroyed they can just let it be, they can store the data in their computers and move away the important equipment, once the nukes land they won't need shamballa in the first place. And nuke are the tip of the iceberg whennit comes to their superior technology. But this can easily became a rant on magitek in general so i will stop there.

Millenia after Agartha's fall, and a likely shortage in components after said millenia of wear and tear for their toys... I don't think they have that many resources left, or people with that level of arrogance wouldn't use 'beast' pasties, they would nuke until they have the continent under control.

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Just now, Flere210 said:

I admit that forgot that detail, but they can still nuke your army when they are in one place. And even if shamballa get destroyed they can just let it be, they can store the data in their computers and move away the important equipment, once the nukes land they won't need shamballa in the first place. And nuke are the tip of the iceberg whennit comes to their superior technology. But this can easily became a rant on magitek in general so i will stop there. 

My point is that i think that their superior technology more than make up for their numbers, if they used it well.

Then you sort of missed my point earlier above. The Agarthans are literally so used to hiding in the shadows. Even the case of using their nukes to kill someone isn't even guaranteed, since they can still fail. 

The Shambhala is the literal base with their technology. And this is the apparently product of hiding for a thousand years. It's kind of clear that "rebuilding" it and the lost technology isn't that easy. 

Though now we're going more into the case of questioning the origins of the Agarthans more, which 3H failed to really develop.

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1 minute ago, Flere210 said:

Wich change my point from PIS(plot induced stupidity) to CIS(character innate stupidity). Wich actually makes the comparisson whit Gil even more appropriate. 

Gil has nigh unlimited resources. The Agarthans don't. No, it's not a case where they can win if they so desire. They don't have the unlimited power to just win. Hell, say that they do nuke everything, what's left? Nothing. THey want to rule Fodlan, not turn it into a literal lavafield that is unfit for human life.

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28 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Edit: i don't think she burned bernie. I think she used her like the cheese on a mouse trap. Wich is not the same thing but is still a bad thing. And the transformation thing is the strike i used againist Dedue, so i believe that is not a good thing regardless of who does it.

 

WTF? She put her in the place where she'd naturally want to go: somewhere not directly in the fighting.

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29 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

You know, the first point is a bad mark, but actuallly being willing to suffer this processus herself... Well, being willing to suffer the fate inflicted to your soldiers is... Something at least?

Yeah, okay. There was a prince in a gacha game I played, where he had used alchemy to make his soldiers have this huge power up, but it literally consumed their life force until they burned to cinders. It's horrible and abhorring, but the soldiers WILLINGLY did it. 

And then the prince himself actually put himself in a similar situation, pushed himself with the same type of power up, being warned by the protags NOT to do that, but the guy refuses to back down.

A leader that is willing to face death the same way as his soldiers is something I found... incredible. 

I couldn't hate a man that would put himself through the same torture as his soldiers. 

And the fact that Edelgard is perfectly willing to actually endure the pain and suffering of being turned into a Demonic Beast, it's just that much more awe-inspiring. 

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4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah, okay. There was a prince in a gacha game I played, where he had used alchemy to make his soldiers have this huge power up, but it literally consumed their life force until they burned to cinders. It's horrible and abhorring, but the soldiers WILLINGLY did it. 

And then the prince himself actually put himself in a similar situation, pushed himself with the same type of power up, being warned by the protags NOT to do that, but the guy refuses to back down.

A leader that is willing to face death the same way as his soldiers is something I found... incredible. 

I couldn't hate a man that would put himself through the same torture as his soldiers. 

And the fact that Edelgard is perfectly willing to actually endure the pain and suffering of being turned into a Demonic Beast, it's just that much more awe-inspiring. 

Her willingness to make the same sacrifices as her soldiers is one aspect of Edelgard I really admire, I do find her level of dedication to her cause to be very admirable. I am just surprised that she was able to transform back at all, I don't think I have seen that with anyone else

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Just now, Darkmoon6789 said:

Her willingness to make the same sacrifices as her soldiers is one aspect of Edelgard I really admire, I do find her level of dedication to her cause to be very admirable. I am just surprised that she was able to transform back at all, I don't think I have seen that with anyone else

Had Edelgard not been willing to do that, or actually was terrified of it, it'd have been a horrible thing that would prove a cowardly moment that villains would be like. But Edelgard isn't. She's the determined emperor that will face death and consequences as her soldiers that died for her did.

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3 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Her willingness to make the same sacrifices as her soldiers is one aspect of Edelgard I really admire, I do find her level of dedication to her cause to be very admirable. I am just surprised that she was able to transform back at all, I don't think I have seen that with anyone else

It seems to be standard. Miklan, Maurice, and the random students from Chapter 9 all return to normal after defeat.

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2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Had Edelgard not been willing to do that, or actually was terrified of it, it'd have been a horrible thing that would prove a cowardly moment that villains would be like. But Edelgard isn't. She's the determined emperor that will face death and consequences as her soldiers that died for her did.

Yet another reason that she literally insists on dying, her soldiers were willing to die for her cause, why should she be any different? With so many people sacrificing themselves for her cause, she sees it as nothing more than right that she should do the same

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Just now, Darkmoon6789 said:

Yet another reason that she literally insists on dying, her soldiers were willing to die for her cause, why should she be any different? With so many people sacrificing themselves for her cause, she sees it as nothing more than right that she should do the same

Some like to point out that Edelgard is a coward that chose death instead of living for her sins, but one can say it's just as, if not more cowardly to not choose death after you sacrificed and brought death to so many people. Cause Edelgard hurt many people, did so many things wrong, and made people fight a war for the sake of freeing humanity. In her reality, if she loses, to surrender means to submit and to also have wasted so many lives. 

She even says it, pointing out that if you fight and then surrender, why fight in the first place? Why did Edelgard start this war if she's just gonna lose and then surrender? What did all those soldiers die for? What were the sacrifices that were made for? 

Just as she says about Lonato. It's better to die fighting for what you believe it. 

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3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Some like to point out that Edelgard is a coward that chose death instead of living for her sins, but one can say it's just as, if not more cowardly to not choose death after you sacrificed and brought death to so many people. Cause Edelgard hurt many people, did so many things wrong, and made people fight a war for the sake of freeing humanity. In her reality, if she loses, to surrender means to submit and to also have wasted so many lives. 

She even says it, pointing out that if you fight and then surrender, why fight in the first place? Why did Edelgard start this war if she's just gonna lose and then surrender? What did all those soldiers die for? What were the sacrifices that were made for? 

Just as she says about Lonato. It's better to die fighting for what you believe it. 

While I hate seeing Edelgard die, what makes it easier is knowing that this was her own decision, Edelgard remained loyal to her ideology until the end, in my mind. This is extremely honourable. Edelgard doesn't ask for anyone to sacrifice anything she isn't willing to sacrifice herself. 

I find it amazing that we took the darkest version of Edelgard and made an argument for why in the end she was still heroic. 

Of course, in Crimson flower she does survive and have to carry the burden of those who gave their lives for her cause for the rest of her life. I think it will affect her, but maybe she will see it as nothing more than right, as another price she needs to pay for her victory

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3 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

While I hate seeing Edelgard die, what makes it easier is knowing that this was her own decision, Edelgard remained loyal to her ideology until the end, in my mind. This is extremely honourable. Edelgard doesn't ask for anyone to sacrifice anything she isn't willing to sacrifice herself. 

I find it amazing that we took the darkest version of Edelgard and made an argument for why in the end she was still heroic. 

Of course, in Crimson flower she does survive and have to carry the burden of those who gave their lives for her cause for the rest of her life. I think it will affect her, but maybe she will see it as nothing more than right, as another price she needs to pay for her victory

Yeah. CF ends with Edelgard now needing to dedicate her life to make sure that the sacrifices that she made in the war, the lives that were lost, were not in vain. 

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2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah. CF ends with Edelgard now needing to dedicate her life to make sure that the sacrifices that she made in the war, the lives that were lost, were not in vain. 

I think you managed to nail one of the primary reasons I really like Edelgard. She always takes full responsibility for everything she does, like a true Emperor

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55 minutes ago, Crysta said:

WTF? She put her in the place where she'd naturally want to go: somewhere not directly in the fighting.

She put her in the place closer to your army, in a place she already knew was going to be highly contested by the battle of the eagle and the lion of t years ago. Maybe i am aplying too much gameplay meta knowledge, but to me it looks like she used the balista, and the person operating it, as a bait. Bernadetta may have volunteer but i doubt she was told the strategy and the risks.

Edited by Flere210
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3 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I think you managed to nail one of the primary reasons I really like Edelgard. She always takes full responsibility for everything she does, like a true Emperor

Not only that, but she doesn't let the Agarthans go. She makes sure that she wipes them all out to ensure that they never pose a threat to humanity again. Contrary to another one that let the clearly evil people stick around.

 

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1 minute ago, Flere210 said:

She put her in the place closer to your army, in a place she already knew was going to be highly contested by the battle of the eagle and the lion of t years ago. Maybe i am aplying too much gameplay meta knowledge, but to me it looks like she used the balista, and the person operating it, as a bait. Bernadetta may have volunteer but i doubt she was told the strategy and the risks.

You are.

It's the only ballista available. Bernadetta is an archer and it's the longest ranged weapon on the field. It's position is unfortunate, but unless the Empire army wants to hang around and build a new platform while the enemy armies are approaching, it's what she's got.

Bernadetta isn't an idiot. She agreeing to help Edelgard fight is her own choice, and I'm pretty sure she knows the risks in that.

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7 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's not how it works, honestly. Failing multiple times doesn't make that she's wrong. It just proves that she wasn't able to meet the ideals she wanted. But really, if anything, she's proven right in literally every route.

How does Fodlan finally change for the better? Edelgard.

How do the Agathans get discovered or get damaged for a long time? Edelgard.

How does Rhea change? Edelgard. 

How does the winner of the war get the supreme power needed to change Fodlan in their view? Edelgard. 

Edelgard wants to make the strongest forms of change, but only if she wins. But even if she loses, Edelgard still managed to bring about a change in Fodlan where things do get better. Because Fodlan before was utter shit. It NEEDED to change. 

All Byleth/Claude and Dimitri did is just capitalize on Edelgard's war and take the power. 

Let's look at Archanea. 

Marth didn't want to unite the continent under one rule. But FE12's War of Heroes resulted in Marth doing just that. He ultimately did what the villain tried to do, unite the continent under one rule. 

It's ironic and almost hypocritical of the hero being presented as the hero when all he does is just win and capitalize on what the villain tried or wanted to do. Whether they had the intention or not doesn't change that that's what they did.

You could even say the similar case for Hanneman. People talking about how Edelgard and Lysithea should just cooperate with him and he'd "save the world" with it, it ultimately ignores that Hanneman is just capitalizing on the ruthless methods of what the Agarthans performed. 

By the same token Medeus, Julius and even Grima were all heroes because things ended up better at the end of the game than the start. Hell you can even say that the Agrathans are the heroes because they're the ones that want to overturn the system the most and succeed in doing so.

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3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

By the same token Medeus, Julius and even Grima were all heroes because things ended up better at the end of the game than the start. Hell you can even say that the Agrathans are the heroes because they're the ones that want to overturn the system the most and succeed in doing so.

I know you're trying to twist the logic around, but in the end, what I overall said remains the fact. In the end, Claude/Byleth and Dimitri overall just capitalized on what Edelgard did, and things only were proven to get better because of her war. 

As said earlier. Two instances of Ionius and Lambert trying their hand at "peaceful" reforms. Results? Disaster. 

Even if you blame the Agarthans, they were only able to be dealt with thanks to war. 

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9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I know you're trying to twist the logic around, but in the end, what I overall said remains the fact. In the end, Claude/Byleth and Dimitri overall just capitalized on what Edelgard did, and things only were proven to get better because of her war. 

As said earlier. Two instances of Ionius and Lambert trying their hand at "peaceful" reforms. Results? Disaster. 

Even if you blame the Agarthans, they were only able to be dealt with thanks to war. 

I'm not blaming the Agarthans, I'm using your same logic to say that they must be the heroes, as the system was overthrown per their intentions and they were the one that raised Edelgard to want to change the world.

Edited by Jotari
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2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'm not blaming the Agarthans, I'm using your same logic to say that they must be the heroes, as the system was overthrown per their intentions and they were the one that raised Edelgard to want to change the world.

What system, though? Nothing about Grima was anything in regards to what I said. There's no "system" or problem. Unless you count how Grima accidentally helped by erasing Robin's memory. 

But would Seliph have even understood the persecution of the Lopto Sect until a revived Lewyn helped him understand? Under normal circumstances, no. No one understood what the Lopto Sect did until Seliph was made to see the Yied Ruins. Granted, most Lopto Sect members are evil and such, but their chaos let Seliph realize the problem in their society with persecution. 

Let's look at the Tellius series. Had it not been for Ashnard, would Ike have befriended Elincia? Would Ike have grown like he did to become someone as strong as Greil was? It's literally what Tibarn said. You need BOTH chaos and order to actually live life. A world of pure order is just a stone world. A world of pure chaos is endless war. But there's a balance there that needs to be attained. 

And it's thanks to the war and chaos that Micaiah brought, it allowed for Ashera to revive and have the convenience where they can just solve all their problems in one fell swoop, saving countless more lives.

And this is what Edelgard brought. Her war is the chaos that allowed Fodlan to finally change and allowed for the Agarthans to actually be dealt with. Had that not happened, the Agarthans would have continued to cause chaos and disaster in every few centuries. 

Overall, you didn't refute my logic. You're just trying to twist it. 

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29 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

And this is what Edelgard brought. Her war is the chaos that allowed Fodlan to finally change and allowed for the Agarthans to actually be dealt with. Had that not happened, the Agarthans would have continued to cause chaos and disaster in every few centuries. 

Overall, you didn't refute my logic. You're just trying to twist it. 

Or, it was the Agrathans war that finally dealt with Rhea and allowed the system to change. In the scenario of the war Edelgard and the Agrathans have the same goals and alignment, with Edelgard owing her world view to the Agrathans. The only difference is that the Agarthans look more evil. I could probably spin something similar for all the other villains but I'm not going to bother. Because my point ultimately is that saying the story had a happy ending so the instigator of the story must be the hero is flawed logic as some of the most dastardly and evil people out there instigate events which, due to the efforts of the protagonists, eventually lead to happy endings.

Edited by Jotari
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The future Edelgard forges for Fodlan if she wins is arguably the best ending, so try as people might it's more difficult for me to picture her in a villainous light even in the routes where she's the clear antagonist. She's the one with the clearer agenda: it's difficult to determine what Dimitri and Claude ultimately do to change the social caste system or the over-reliance on Crests. Crimson Flower is also the route where you don't get God Emperor Byleth, and Byleth is no longer emotionally stunted by the crest stone anchor on his heart. The Slitherers likely get a more thorough trouncing than in the others because she's more familiar with how they operate and where they operate. Everything aside from the crest stone being destroyed are the consequences of a deliberate plan hatched by her that she, unlike the others, is willing to act on.

The plans most villains spearhead are usually fiendishly evil and 100% meant to benefit them personally, and the heroes stop them and reap the unintended benefits. That isn't really the case with Edelgard.

Edited by Crysta
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1 hour ago, Crysta said:

The future Edelgard forges for Fodlan if she wins is arguably the best ending

Nah, Verdant Winds was probably the best ending, until Cindered Shadows came along where Hapi takes out TWSitD no matter what in her solo ending, which makes Blue Lions the best ending imo (due to the least amount of main character deaths).

1 hour ago, Crysta said:

Byleth is no longer emotionally stunted by the crest stone anchor on his heart.

That is a huge assumption to make, especially since Byleth didn't change their personalities in their S supports in CF. Same with the Slitherers getting "a more thorough trouncing".

1 hour ago, Crysta said:

That isn't really the case with Edelgard.

Except it is. Things like trying to kill enemies before they can even oppose and trying to conquer other countries as the aggressor more often than not put you in the darker light, especially in Fire Emblem games.

8 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

You mean the "assassination" that seems to have way too many flaws to be really something Edelgard would have intended on?

No matter how many flaws you try to look into it (which this game is full of unfortunately), you can't deny it was presented to us in the game as the sole reason for the assassination. Anything else you try to come up with really can't be fact until it's shown in the game.

8 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

This bandit attack happening is what causes the teacher to run off, and Jeritza was apparently gonna replace him had that happened. Not to mention that Edelgard, despite being Jeritza's superior, had no use for him. Like, that makes no sense for that to be the case. 

And yet, nothing in the game points this to actually being the reason, even when they brought Jeritza on as a character.

Edited by MrPerson0
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16 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

That is a huge assumption to make, especially since Byleth didn't change their personalities in their S supports in CF. Same with the Slitherers getting "a more thorough trouncing".

The crest stone on Byleth's heart shatters in CF's ending.  According to the journal that Jeralt left, Byleth lacked a heartbeat, among other things, and Sothis surmises it's because of the crest stone on his/her heart.  Thus, the conclusion that the crest stone repressed Byleth's emotions isn't out of thin air.

At the very least, Byleth gets a heartbeat.  That's worth something!

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