Jump to content
omegaxis1

The True Tragedy of Three Houses

Recommended Posts

14 minutes ago, Crysta said:

What endings would you propose that are better?

No, she believes she is using them to achieve her own ends. At no point does she take orders from them. In fact, they seem to get in the way of her plans and piss her off more than anything else. They're allies simply because they have a common enemy: they do not have aligned end goals.

And yeah it turns out trauma has an effect on her motivations. How does that make her an idiot? My trauma plays an indelible role in how I make decisions, too.

That said, I have not been tortured by mole people and I can rationalize her actions. You may not like them, but they're not coming from a completely outlandish place.

My view is not that its outlandish (though I do think it's a bit contradictory, not the same thing), but that it is manufactured by the Agarthans. The trauma plays a role and it's the exact role they intended it to play based on the fact that she's doing precisely what they want in destroying Rhea.

Edited by Jotari

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jotari said:

My view is not that its outlandish (though I do think it's a bit contradictory, not the same thing), but that it is manufactured by the Agarthans. The trauma plays a role and it's the exact role they intended it to play based on the fact that she's doing precisely what they want in destroying Rhea.

Assuming this theory is true, where in the story do you think would be appropriate for her to have this epiphany if she was not an idiot?

Mind you, I don't think it's true. I think she's aware they want to manipulate and use her but she's confident she can outplay them. You also don't need the help of the Agarthans to come to the conclusion that humanity being under the yoke of nabatean control and influence hasn't turned out well for them, and just maybe things should change and sitting down to have tea with Rhea to ask her nicely to back off isn't realistic. Her reasons for wanting Rhea gone aren't the same, so it's silly to expect her to abandon the cause just because it's what the Agarthans want.

It's clear people think Edelgard should fight the cartoonishly evil bad guys, but you defeat them and... then what? That's not her primary goal. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Assuming this theory is true, where in the story do you think would be appropriate for her to have this epiphany if she was not an idiot?

Mind you, I don't think it's true. I think she's aware they want to manipulate and use her but she's confident she can outplay them. You also don't need the help of the Agarthans to come to the conclusion that humanity being under the yoke of nabatean control and influence hasn't turned out well for them, and just maybe things should change and sitting down to have tea with Rhea to ask her nicely to back off isn't realistic. Her reasons for wanting Rhea gone aren't the same, so it's silly to expect her to abandon the cause just because it's what the Agarthans want.

It's clear people think Edelgard should fight the cartoonishly evil bad guys, but you defeat them and... then what? That's not her primary goal. 

If Edelgard thought she could outplay them, guess what? She was right. She could and she did exactly that

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

If Edelgard thought she could outplay them, guess what? She was right. She could and she did exactly that

I think she almost overplayed her hand with Cornelia tbh, but yes, she ultimately succeeds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Crysta said:

It's clear people think Edelgard should fight the cartoonishly evil bad guys, but you defeat them and... then what? That's not her primary goal. 

The point her primary goal is a massive case of skewed priorities. If you have a moderately evil enemy and a super evil enemy, siding whit the super evil one to defeat the other is not the best path.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Flere210 said:

The point her primary goal is a massive case of skewed priorities. If you have a moderately evil enemy and a super evil enemy, siding whit the super evil one to defeat the other is not the best path.

The Agarthans are not the ones perpetuating the systematic evil she wants to uproot. They've clearly been taking advantage of it and Rhea has been weirdly unaware and incompetent from stopping them, but they're not why the nobility covets crests so much. Them clearly being more cruel and evil doesn't really change the fact that defeating them is not nearly as consequential.

She considers them more useful to her end goals alive than they are dead, which they eventually end up being anyway afterwards, so it seems she was right on that front too. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

The point her primary goal is a massive case of skewed priorities. If you have a moderately evil enemy and a super evil enemy, siding whit the super evil one to defeat the other is not the best path.

It's also a case of 'Who's the biggest monster?', in the sense of which one is the bigger opponent. And between the continental Church holding sway amongst the major part of the nobility, be it only through lip service in the name of preserving their power over the peasants, and the Mole Men, who despite their power, evil and arrogance, the latter making it clear they would want to win their war without using 'beasts' if they could, are forced into the shadows and manipulations games? One of these two looks like the mightier opponent, and I am (not) sorry for the Mole Men's ego, but that's not them.And when you have two enemies, but that the two of them hate each other? You 'ally' the weaker one, while preparing to take down that so-called ally the nanosecond their help isn't needed anymore to take down the bigger opponent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Except that, in the years the game is set in, the slithers were doing much more than the church to keep the current system afloat. Who killed lambert? Who did the insurrection of the seven? Not the church.

Edited by Flere210

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Crysta said:

Assuming this theory is true, where in the story do you think would be appropriate for her to have this epiphany if she was not an idiot?

Mind you, I don't think it's true. I think she's aware they want to manipulate and use her but she's confident she can outplay them. You also don't need the help of the Agarthans to come to the conclusion that humanity being under the yoke of nabatean control and influence hasn't turned out well for them, and just maybe things should change and sitting down to have tea with Rhea to ask her nicely to back off isn't realistic. Her reasons for wanting Rhea gone aren't the same, so it's silly to expect her to abandon the cause just because it's what the Agarthans want.

It's clear people think Edelgard should fight the cartoonishly evil bad guys, but you defeat them and... then what? That's not her primary goal. 

I wouldn't have Edelgard be tortured by them in the first place. That would make her discontent with the system more her own choice and her willingness to work with the Agrathans require less mental gymnastics to justify.

9 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Except that, in the years the game is set in, the slithers were doing much more than the church to keep the current system afloat. Who killed lambert? Who did the insurrection of the seven? Not the church.

Not even in the years of the game, they're the ones responsible for implementing the Crest system to begin with.

Edited by Jotari

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

But that ain't how Edelgard is Everything about her is to look deeper into the context and analyze things.

The thing is, there's a difference between looking deeper into things to the point where you start to develop your own headcanon on why she did that as opposed to what the game presented.

6 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

If she wanted them dead, why did she follow?

Because it would look suspicious as hell that she didn't follow to help her fellow students, putting an extra amount of scrutiny on her.

6 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Ah yes, thank you for making it clear how people need to have their hands held for everything and need every detail explained. Fans are clearly incapable of actually analyzing context clues.

As said above, there's a difference between finding more info that is presented by the game and inserting your own headcanon into why she did such a thing.

6 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

But more than that, least character death's don't equal best route. I would actually say that Blue Lions holds the bloodiest route of them all. Ironic, the opposite of CF, the least bloody path. 

If you are talking about how many civilians are kill, no one truly knows if CF has less people killed than AM. If you are talking about Dimitri going rogue, from what I hear, Yuri outright confirms that Dimitri only went after Adrestian soldiers, and never went against civilians.

6 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

As mentioned above, even Hapi isn't like Jeritza that outright confirmed that the Agarthans are wiped out. But more than that, least character death's don't equal best route. I would actually say that Blue Lions holds the bloodiest route of them all. Ironic, the opposite of CF, the least bloody path. 

The thing is, you need a specific pairing in a specific route for that to happen. At least with Hapi, she doesn't even need to be paired off with anyone to take out TWSitD and she is easily available in any route. Also, you are splitting hairs seeing that Hapi's ending outright says that "they were defeated" which is more or less the same as "forever vanquished" in this sense.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Crysta said:

 

Alright. You also consider her an idiot because she operates on biases and limited knowledge like a normal person realistically would

That's very YMMV though. Personally, at the moment, a guess a good example right now would be that I'm not fond of Edelgard at the moment but I want to get all information and facts before making a final judgement on her. Play all routes and fully understand her and her motives, than just jumping on the Edel or Rhea or whomever sucks train...

Edel as a character doesn't do that, she jumps on the "church sucks", "Rhea is evil" train and doesn't stop. Idiotic ? Maybe, but it's not very wise, and people die because of it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Eurydice said:

Edel as a character doesn't do that, she jumps on the "church sucks", "Rhea is evil" train and doesn't stop. Idiotic ? Maybe, but it's not very wise, and people die because of it. 

Why should Edelgard in her situation not believe Rhea is a cartoonish villain maskerading as a saintly pope lady though? Because yeah, her beliefs are indeed based on incomplete info, but it isn't that simple to prove she's wrong with actual evidence when the people that can actually do that have no reason whatsoever to do so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MrPerson0 said:

The thing is, there's a difference between looking deeper into things to the point where you start to develop your own headcanon on why she did that as opposed to what the game presented.

Not when the context clues are literally RIGHT there.

Here, let me show you:

Quote

Knight of Seiros: The Imperial princess, the crown prince, and the heir to the Alliance's leading house... This is one exceptional year, that's for sure. If you're a teacher here, you'd better watch your step. If anything were to happen to those kids... Well, suffice to say that it could harm the reputation of the Church of Seiros, which we've spent almost a millennium establishing.

-

Alois: Ha! I imagine you were a bit surprised that I recommended you as a professor here. Frankly, we had someone else in mind for the role, but they ran off during our dustup with the bandits. Can't entrust students to someone who's abandoned them once before, huh?

-

Caspar: Who, Jeritza sure seems strong. I kinda thought he was gonna be the new professor assigned to our class. After that teacher ran away during our outdoor training, I figured Jeritza was a natural replacement. I was surprised when you were suddenly appointed professor instead. I don't think I could hold my own against Jeritza in battle. I could probably take you though.

Or about the attack itself:

Quote

Claude: Hey! You are coming with us to the monastery, right? Of course you are. I’d love to bend your ear as we travel. Oh, I should mention that the three of us are students of the Officers Academy at Garreg Mach Monastery. We were doing some training exercises when those bandits attacked. I definitely got the worst of it.

Edelgard: That would be because you ran off.

Claude: Too true! I was the first to make a strategic retreat. Everything would have worked out if these two hadn’t followed me and ruined everything. Because of them, every single one of those bandits chased after us. Utterly ridiculous.

-

Byleth: The Knights of Seiros?

Edelgard: You haven’t heard of the Knights of Seiros? The most famous order of knights in all of Fódlan?

-

Kostas: No one said anything about the Knights of damned Seiros being on our trail!

-

Flame Emperor: You have proven yourself worthless-- distracted by something so trivial. I had hoped you would achieve your goal despite the setback, but now a child of the Knights’ former captain is in play. How interesting.

Kostas: Hey, this isn't what I agreed to!

Flame Emperor: Hiring a mercenary as a professor. What was that woman thinking?

Like, this isn't headcanon. If Edelgard legit wanted Claude and Dimtiri dead, she wouldn't have followed them when she was literally under the safety of the Knights of Seiros. And immediately after the event, look at that, the teacher ran off because there's serious repercussions for the Imperial princess, crown prince, and sovereign duke being placed in danger. And then mention of how Jeritza was gonna naturally be the new professor had Byleth not been brought over. 

This is like assuming that Edelgard could have easily retaliated against the Agarthans, but ignoring the literal fact that the Insurrection of the Seven rendered her family politically impotent. 

1 hour ago, MrPerson0 said:

Because it would look suspicious as hell that she didn't follow to help her fellow students, putting an extra amount of scrutiny on her.

No. They were under attack. Claude was the one that ran off, and Dimitri followed. Her following them only put her in actual danger, which basically made any reason for this be a planned attack against Dimitri and Claude a silly idea. There's literally nothing about the situation that puts Edelgard under suspicion. Like, at all.

1 hour ago, MrPerson0 said:

As said above, there's a difference between finding more info that is presented by the game and inserting your own headcanon into why she did such a thing.

And as I have responded above, not when the context clues are right there. 

But you're literally insinuating that unless it's directly stated, you refuse to acknowledge it. 

1 hour ago, MrPerson0 said:

If you are talking about how many civilians are kill, no one truly knows if CF has less people killed than AM. If you are talking about Dimitri going rogue, from what I hear, Yuri outright confirms that Dimitri only went after Adrestian soldiers, and never went against civilians.

... No, it's VERY easy to confirm.

1) No Dukedom, so none of the atrocities Cornelia did in the other routes happen. In fact, the only damages are Arianrhod and Fhirdiad in CF, two major cities, sure, but hardly comparable to an entire nation being torn apart by the Dukedom. 

2) No fractured Alliance through strong arming Count Gloucester. In fact, Claude states that the Alliance is mostly intact in CF. This is contrary to what the other routes have, which has both Faerghus and Alliance in bad shape from the war. The Alliance had actually been left alone during the entire five years in CF.

3) No Gronder Field battle, which is lorewise a very violent and horrific conflict that suffered major casualties. 

Hell, if you even just go by the routes, in every non-CF route, every nation are in shambles by the end from the fractured Alliance, Dukedom in Faerghus, and beating the Empire. But CF overall has the Empire be perfectly fine, the Alliance being mostly intact, and Faerghus being the only one that took any major damage. 

So in the end, the facts are really simple. CF has the least chaos and bloodshed in the war out of all the routes. 

2 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

The thing is, you need a specific pairing in a specific route for that to happen. At least with Hapi, she doesn't even need to be paired off with anyone to take out TWSitD and she is easily available in any route. Also, you are splitting hairs seeing that Hapi's ending outright says that "they were defeated" which is more or less the same as "forever vanquished" in this sense.

First off, a very hypocritical statement. Are you not the one that's trying to criticize context clues and such here for not outright saying it? So how can you try and insist that Hapi means the same as Jeritza's? 

And overall, defeat doesn't mean wiping them out entirely. Because even Silver Snow goes to talk about that the Agarthans were defeated, but we know that they are still around. 

Even if we are to assume that the Agarthans were totally destroyed, there's no telling just how much damage they had inflicted when they had risen again, contrary to CF's ending, where they are defeated behind the scenes, as the struggle against them is an unseen one, contrary to the non-CF routes. So all we can start making headcanons out of is that the Agarthans could have been dealt with easily, or they caused major damage all across Fodlan when they rose once more. I mean, if Hapi's power was "instrumental" to beating them, then they MUST have been damn powerful and caused quite a lot of damage if Hapi was their only hope.

2 hours ago, Eurydice said:

Edel as a character doesn't do that, she jumps on the "church sucks", "Rhea is evil" train and doesn't stop. Idiotic ? Maybe, but it's not very wise, and people die because of it. 

I mean, that's the problem with Rhea having kept so much secrets. If all you do is keep secrets, how are people going to trust you when they find their own truths? Edelgard knowing that Rhea's a dragon posing as a human, deceiving and controlling society through religion, and there's overall no way of actually finding out the truth of the matter, since Rhea and the Agarthans aren't really going to talk, and frankly, Edelgard would trusting the Agarthans as much as she'd count on Bernadetta not being terrified of nearly every little thing. 

So all Edelgard has to run is her own information, but can't learn anything more, and good luck asking. How can Edelgard trust Rhea won't just kill Edelgard for learning the truth? Odds are that Rhea likely would have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

I mean, that's the problem with Rhea having kept so much secrets. If all you do is keep secrets, how are people going to trust you when they find their own truths? Edelgard knowing that Rhea's a dragon posing as a human, deceiving and controlling society through religion, and there's overall no way of actually finding out the truth of the matter, since Rhea and the Agarthans aren't really going to talk, and frankly, Edelgard would trusting the Agarthans as much as she'd count on Bernadetta not being terrified of nearly every little thing. 

So all Edelgard has to run is her own information, but can't learn anything more, and good luck asking. How can Edelgard trust Rhea won't just kill Edelgard for learning the truth? Odds are that Rhea likely would have.

Though, Claude is highly suspicious of Rhea and the church as well, though he holds back until he gets all the answers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Eurydice said:

Though, Claude is highly suspicious of Rhea and the church as well, though he holds back until he gets all the answers.

But even then, he only ever got answers cause the point escalated to making it impossible to keep secrets, and Rhea having now changed after realizing the error of her ways from being imprisoned for five years. 

It's a case where Claude only ever gets all his answers thanks to Edelgard and her war. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Like, this isn't headcanon.

It is when, once again, even Jeritza doesn't even supplement this idea (through his supports) even though the writers of the game could have easily done so. Edelgard not telling the bandits about the Knights of Seiros could be easily covering herself in case the bandits told people who hired them. Saying that someone told them about the Knights of Seiros being there makes it more likely there was a mole instead of a bunch of bandits just happening upon them.

As for Caspar's statement, that was solely on his idea of him wanting to have a chance at fighting Jeritza more, which is simple speculation. Also, he says that quote no matter which house you pick, so it's clear that he wasn't talking about Jeritiza becoming his house's leader.

25 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

So in the end, the facts are really simple. CF has the least chaos and bloodshed in the war out of all the routes. 

This is still under the assumption that they literally did nothing for five years, which is pretty unrealistic. I do admit that she at least didn't persecute church followers and whatnot, and it seems that the public was more on her side in this route, so there probably truly were fewer deaths among the citizens and whatnot.

25 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Are you not the one that's trying to criticize context clues and such here for not outright saying it?

Sure, but there's a reason that multiple versions of Hapi's ending has her taking out TWSitD. The developers simply wanted to show that they are taken care of in all routes no matter what. This is different from Jeritza since we already knew that they were taken care through the CF ending, especially since his solo ending doesn't mention them being "forever vanquished", it's pretty clear that these different terms used are supposed to be synonymous.

25 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

contrary to CF's ending, where they are defeated behind the scenes, as the struggle against them is an unseen one, contrary to the non-CF routes.

Suggesting that the struggles in the other paths (outside of the VW one which is only mentioned in the Byleth x Claude ending) aren't behind the scenes is an assumption as well. We have no way of saying how it worked in BL and SS.

As for Hapi being instrumental, one can argue that her solo non-CF ending makes it seem that she took them out on her own (with her power), which can easily show that the reemerged TWSITD were not able to even take her out.

Edited by MrPerson0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, MrPerson0 said:

It is when, once again, even Jeritza doesn't even supplement this idea (through his supports) even though the writers of the game could have easily done so. Edelgard not telling the bandits about the Knights of Seiros could be easily covering herself in case the bandits told people who hired them. Saying that someone told them about the Knights of Seiros being there makes it more likely there was a mole instead of a bunch of bandits just happening upon them.

As for Caspar's statement, that was solely on his idea of him wanting to have a chance at fighting Jeritza more, which is simple speculation. Also, he says that quote no matter which house you pick, so it's clear that he wasn't talking about Jeritiza becoming his house's leader.

Actually, not really. It's stated that Jeirtza got into Garreg Mach under Arundel's recommendation. He was clearly planted in there for a purpose. Problem with that is that Thales didn't use him originally. Edelgard had to lend Jeritza to Thales. So if Jeritza was following Edelgard's orders until she lent him to Thales, that makes the case of what Jeritza doing there questionable since Edelgard never bothered to actually use him. Which once again, I point to you how the context clues are once again all there. 

Also, what? Edelgard was wearing weird get up, a mask, and thus there was absolutely NO way for Kostas to ever be able to identify Edelgard, and we're to believe that not telling Kostas about the Knights of Seiros, something that would be very helpful to know about if the plan was actually to kill Dimitri and Claude, and you're saying that it's to keep her cover up? I'm sorry, but that's a very weak argument there. There being a mole doesn't actually scrutinize Edelgard in any way. Not that there was even any intention of interrogating them. In the end, you're not proving your actual case. 

This is a quote to before you actually choose a House. However, the problem here is that Caspar is saying that Byleth becoming a professor makes little sense, as Jeritza would be the natural pick. Also, Caspar was talking about how he stands no chance against Jeritza cause Jeritza is super strong. So what you said makes little sense. And again, the fact that the teacher ran away and how it's pointed out isn't something that is just some throwaway line. 

Context matters.

9 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

This is still under the assumption that they literally did nothing for five years, which is pretty unrealistic.

The Alliance was left untouched. And the war against Faerghus was in a state of deadlock. All pointed out in the narration. 

And I find it absurd that we need to actually argue this when the literal fact that there is no Dukedom makes everything clear that CF is the least bloody. Cause the Dukedom is run by Cornelia, and we get a clear indication of how she runs in her tyrannical reign. 

It's abundantly clear. CF is way less bloody and chaotic than the others simply because there is no Dukedom and Claude confirms that the Alliance is mostly unscathed. 

This isn't even debatable by these two clear facts.

11 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Sure, but there's a reason that multiple versions of Hapi's ending has her taking out TWSitD. The developers simply wanted to show that they are taken care of in all routes no matter what. This is different from Jeritza since we already knew that they were taken care through the CF ending, especially since his solo ending doesn't mention them being "forever vanquished", it's pretty clear that these different terms used are supposed to be synonymous.

Okay, and yet Jeritza's is still the one that makes a statement that they are gone for good. No other ending makes that clear. The oringal types of arguments people make to CF's endings is that the Agarthans are not actually all gone, just beaten. Until Jeritza came.

Well, guess what? Now that argument used against CF back then is thrown at Hapi now. 

I'll be honest, Hapi doesn't even really fit into the Blue Lions house personality-wise, if I'm being honest. Her being there only seems to be just to give the Blue Lions something at least and a way of addressing the glaring plothole.

13 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Suggesting that the struggles in the other paths (outside of the VW one which is only mentioned in the Byleth x Claude ending) aren't behind the scenes is an assumption as well. We have no way of saying how it worked in BL and SS.

As for Hapi being instrumental, one can argue that her solo non-CF ending makes it seem that she took them out on her own (with her power), which can easily show that the reemerged TWSITD were not able to even take her out.

No, because CF outright states that it's an unseen conflict.

But the other routes have nothing to uphold this manner of argument. The fact that VW has Claude/Byleth only makes it even MORE clear that the Agarthans rising once more is them performing an open conflict. 

Also, that's not how being instrumental works. Being instrumental is just meaning that without her, they are screwed. Meaning that until she joins the fight, the Agarthans are causing a lot of problems to everyone else. Just like how Claude/Byleth's ending being that despite God Byleth being a thing, the Agarthans nearly won and it's only cause of Claude as the Almyran King did they manage to win over. That makes Claude being instrumental in beating them in that ending. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Actually, not really. It's stated that Jeirtza got into Garreg Mach under Arundel's recommendation. He was clearly planted in there for a purpose.

I'm not arguing against this. However, it's clear that the purpose is him being in Garreg Mach, so he is close to Edelgard already. Also, the game shows that the third professor was meant to be the Golden Deer's teacher (without Byleth's interference, Manuela is with Black Eagles and Hanneman is with Blue Lions), so there is no way Edelgard would have known that the professors would let Jeritza pick a specific house to teach anyway.

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

thus there was absolutely NO way for Kostas to ever be able to identify Edelgard

I never said he would identify Edelgard....I said that the Church would know that there was a mole with them earlier in the game.

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

This is a quote to before you actually choose a House.

That doesn't make sense. Before you pick a house, none of the students (save the house leaders) know that you are the new professor. I am assuming you are referring to this quote by Caspar (assuming you pulled it from the Wikia, since there is a typo at the beginning):

Quote

Wow, Jeritza sure seems strong. I kinda thought he was gonna be the new professor assigned to our class. After that teacher ran away during our outdoor training, I figured Jeritza was a natural replacement. I was surprised that you were suddenly appointed professor instead. I don't think I could hold my own against Jeritza in battle. I could probably take you though.

He says that to you only after you have picked a house in Chapter 1. Also, just because he can't beat Jeritza doesn't mean he doesn't want to keep on fighting him. He was hoping for Jeritza as a teacher so he could learn from someone who is strong, and he is the only one who even brings up this possibility.

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

No other ending makes that clear.

I agree, not even his solo ending makes it that clear. This goes on to show that there are too many

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Also, that's not how being instrumental works. Being instrumental is just meaning that without her, they are screwed.

I know what being instrumental means...I was agreeing with you on that idea... Also, you seem to have ignored the point where Hapi's solo ending makes it seem that she takes out TWSitD on her own without any help (outside of her power), which is unlikely. This is why I am saying some endings are left to interpretation, because you don't know what actually happened, and there are way too many discrepancies between them (such as solo Jeritza and his ending with Byleth).

Edited by MrPerson0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

I'm not arguing against this. However, it's clear that the purpose is him being in Garreg Mach, so he is close to Edelgard already. Also, the game shows that the third professor was meant to be the Golden Deer's teacher (without Byleth's interference, Manuela is with Black Eagles and Hanneman is with Blue Lions), so there is no way Edelgard would have known that the professors would let Jeritza pick a specific house to teach anyway.

If you're going this by that "theory" of how Manuela and Hanneman seem to have this "default" class chosen, that's not really any indication. No professor were even finalized. Regardless of whether Hanneman and Manuela already had a chosen class, with the new professor, it was given that this is resent, and Jeritza would basically choose which house to train as well. 

So don't honestly put too much belief into that theory. Given how rushed 3H is, it's easier to just set them in a house already gameplay wise rather than rotate, which would actually be additional programming. 

9 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

I never said he would identify Edelgard....I said that the Church would know that there was a mole with them earlier in the game.

That's a big if. Frankly, going by your thing, that narrows down the search to... every member of the Church or Knight of Seiros. And still unlikely for Edelgard to be suspected. 

Like, how "secret" is this? They didn't even talk about their training exercise as being even a big secret. So literally anyone could get that info. 

11 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

That doesn't make sense. Before you pick a house, none of the students (save the house leaders) know that you are the new professor. I am assuming you are referring to this quote by Caspar (assuming you pulled it from the Wikia, since there is a typo at the beginning):

Ah, my mistake. Yes, Caspar says this after choosing a house regardless of route. 

This actually brings up what I have just said now. In regards that simply having a replacement just resets chosen houses in accordance for the new professor. So that basically pushes the case that Jeritza would choose Black Eagles. As I said, don't put so much faith in what the theory of how there's no class rotation for Manuela and Hanneman as what has to be the case, when it can easily just be a coding thing. 

Having some experience with programming, having a "default" side set basically makes things easier. It's nothing conclusive to the story of what house Jeritza would have gotten. 

18 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

He says that to you only after you have picked a house in Chapter 1. Also, just because he can't beat Jeritza doesn't mean he doesn't want to keep on fighting him. He was hoping for Jeritza as a teacher so he could learn from someone who is strong, and he is the only one who even brings up this possibility.

Great, but nothing about the case of how this doesn't change how there's clear context case of how without Byleth, it seems easy for Jeritza to be the new professor. He's not a member of the Knights of Seiros, but just a sword instructor. He's clearly strong, so if the old teach ran off, Jeritza is just a shoe in. Byleth comes in, and suddenly nothing.

This is why the case is weird for Edelgard to have... nothing to do with Jeritza despite how he's her subordinate. He doesn't do anything until Edelgard complies with Thales's request to borrow him. Which is, again, really weird. Why would Edelgard want him in Garreg Mach if she has no use for her subordinate there? 

20 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

I agree, not even his solo ending makes it that clear. This goes on to show that there are too many

Yes, but this is against one ending that DOES make it clear. Out of all the endings, there is one ending that makes it abundantly clear. So now, Jeritza has that. But Hapi and the others don't. There's also something that CF endings have that the other route endings don't. The use of the words "true peace" which is exclusively used in regards to defeating the Agarthans completely. Because to ensure true peace, they need to go. 

But "true peace" is not used for other route endings in any of them. Even if you defeat the Agarthans, it doesn't use the terms "true peace" in them, which is a pretty good indication of how the Agarthans aren't actually gone. 

24 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

I know what being instrumental means...I was agreeing with you on that idea... Also, you seem to have ignored the point where Hapi's solo ending makes it seem that she takes out TWSitD on her own without any help (outside of her power), which is unlikely. This is why I am saying some endings are left to interpretation, because you don't know what actually happened, and there are way too many discrepancies between them (such as solo Jeritza and his ending with Byleth).

Ah, okay, you meant the solo ending. Yeah, overall, Hapi seems designed to specifically just to fill in the case of the Agarthans. 

But see, that's if you see only the solo ending. But solo endings aren't all there is. Otherwise the mention of Claude/Byleth's paired ending revealing the Agarthans being alive wouldn't be real, but it is. Solo endings are an ending, but don't represent everything. 

The reason we know that CF is one that makes a clear mention of them being wiped out and others remarking "true peace" is to make it clear how CF differs from VW/SS/AM. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

If you're going this by that "theory" of how Manuela and Hanneman seem to have this "default" class chosen, that's not really any indication. No professor were even finalized. Regardless of whether Hanneman and Manuela already had a chosen class, with the new professor, it was given that this is resent, and Jeritza would basically choose which house to train as well. 

So don't honestly put too much belief into that theory. Given how rushed 3H is, it's easier to just set them in a house already gameplay wise rather than rotate, which would actually be additional programming. 

That's a big if. Frankly, going by your thing, that narrows down the search to... every member of the Church or Knight of Seiros. And still unlikely for Edelgard to be suspected. 

Like, how "secret" is this? They didn't even talk about their training exercise as being even a big secret. So literally anyone could get that info. 

Ah, my mistake. Yes, Caspar says this after choosing a house regardless of route. 

This actually brings up what I have just said now. In regards that simply having a replacement just resets chosen houses in accordance for the new professor. So that basically pushes the case that Jeritza would choose Black Eagles. As I said, don't put so much faith in what the theory of how there's no class rotation for Manuela and Hanneman as what has to be the case, when it can easily just be a coding thing. 

Having some experience with programming, having a "default" side set basically makes things easier. It's nothing conclusive to the story of what house Jeritza would have gotten. 

Great, but nothing about the case of how this doesn't change how there's clear context case of how without Byleth, it seems easy for Jeritza to be the new professor. He's not a member of the Knights of Seiros, but just a sword instructor. He's clearly strong, so if the old teach ran off, Jeritza is just a shoe in. Byleth comes in, and suddenly nothing.

This is why the case is weird for Edelgard to have... nothing to do with Jeritza despite how he's her subordinate. He doesn't do anything until Edelgard complies with Thales's request to borrow him. Which is, again, really weird. Why would Edelgard want him in Garreg Mach if she has no use for her subordinate there? 

Yes, but this is against one ending that DOES make it clear. Out of all the endings, there is one ending that makes it abundantly clear. So now, Jeritza has that. But Hapi and the others don't. There's also something that CF endings have that the other route endings don't. The use of the words "true peace" which is exclusively used in regards to defeating the Agarthans completely. Because to ensure true peace, they need to go. 

But "true peace" is not used for other route endings in any of them. Even if you defeat the Agarthans, it doesn't use the terms "true peace" in them, which is a pretty good indication of how the Agarthans aren't actually gone. 

Ah, okay, you meant the solo ending. Yeah, overall, Hapi seems designed to specifically just to fill in the case of the Agarthans. 

But see, that's if you see only the solo ending. But solo endings aren't all there is. Otherwise the mention of Claude/Byleth's paired ending revealing the Agarthans being alive wouldn't be real, but it is. Solo endings are an ending, but don't represent everything. 

The reason we know that CF is one that makes a clear mention of them being wiped out and others remarking "true peace" is to make it clear how CF differs from VW/SS/AM. 

You are making a really good case for Edelgard, if it is the only place true peace is used, that is a really strong argument for the Crimson flower ending. Between the least bloody war, and among the best final outcomes, Edelgard winning might actually be what is best for everyone, but I guess that is just my subjective opinion. I just really don't think that Crimson Flower Edelgard went out of her way to attack civilians, when it comes to the two cities that were destroyed, neither was her fault, so I can't think that civilian casualties would have been that high

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

You are making a really good case for Edelgard, if it is the only place true peace is used, that is a really strong argument for the Crimson flower ending. Between the least bloody war, and among the best final outcomes, Edelgard winning might actually be what is best for everyone, but I guess that is just my subjective opinion. I just really don't think that Crimson Flower Edelgard went out of her way to attack civilians, when it comes to the two cities that were destroyed, neither was her fault, so I can't think that civilian casualties would have been that high

In a war, it's inevitable that civilians will get caught up in it. Edelgard doesn't even deny this and says as much, which is why she actually expresses her emotions at how much starting this war is a painful choice for her. She holds the lives lost in the war, whether it be enemies or allies as something that weighs on her. As you said, she's incredibly selfless. 

BTW, tell me if this quote resonates with you and Edelgard:

Quote

"I never cared about justice, and I don't recall ever calling myself a hero... I have always only fought for the people I believe in. I won't hesitate... If an enemy appears in front of me, I will destroy it!"

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

In a war, it's inevitable that civilians will get caught up in it. Edelgard doesn't even deny this and says as much, which is why she actually expresses her emotions at how much starting this war is a painful choice for her. She holds the lives lost in the war, whether it be enemies or allies as something that weighs on her. As you said, she's incredibly selfless. 

BTW, tell me if this quote resonates with you and Edelgard:

 

Her confiding in Byleth in the scene after the reveal of the Flame Emperor is a shoot reaches and for why I love Edelgard as much as I do, as you say, she fully does understand the weight of her actions and she even shows hesitation in starting the war. But ultimately, she still does what she thinks is right. My favourite quote of hers is:

"It may seem contradictory but it is the only way"

Is that quote you mentioned a quote by Edelgard? It does somewhat apply to her in any case, I will just say that whenever Edelgard considers herself a hero or not. I do think she is one. It true hero wouldn't care if they are seen as heroic by others, they would do what they think is right. Regardless of what this makes people think of them

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Is that quote you mentioned a quote by Edelgard? It does somewhat apply to her in any case, I will just say that whenever Edelgard considers herself a hero or not. I do think she is one. It true hero wouldn't care if they are seen as heroic by others, they would do what they think is right. Regardless of what this makes people think of them

Nope. This quote I gave is from the franchise my avatar represents: Megaman. 

This is from Zero, a quote he says to the final boss in Megaman Zero 4. X3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Nope. This quote I gave is from the franchise my avatar represents: Megaman. 

This is from Zero, a quote he says to the final boss in Megaman Zero 4. X3

I see, you might have noticed, but I don't only just like Edelgard, I love her. It does pretty much make it entirely impossible for me to be entirely objective, but I am trying. Not sure that's true objectivity is really possible for a human anyway, we all have our biases. I have to say that one thing I really admire with Edelgard is her consistency when it comes to her beliefs, I don't think I have ever seen an individual this dedicated to their cause

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I see, you might have noticed, but I don't only just like Edelgard, I love her. It does pretty much make it entirely impossible for me to be entirely objective, but I am trying. Not sure that's true objectivity is really possible for a human anyway, we all have our biases. I have to say that one thing I really admire with Edelgard is her consistency when it comes to her beliefs, I don't think I have ever seen an individual this dedicated to their cause

No one will EVER avoid being biased. It's part of human nature. Even if they try not to be, it's rare for that to happen. And even then, some bias can be applied. 

What's important is being able to look at the other side. Believe me, I had a HARD time seeing Dimitri's side for the most part. Toxic fans REALLY killed my ability to like him. But getting away from reddit helps a lot. This place helped me get the worst of the toxins out. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...