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The True Tragedy of Three Houses

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16 minutes ago, Jotari said:

That's you're view of the matter, which is very black and white (which seems to be how you view most aspects of the story). My view is if that were really the authorial intent, if Dimitri really didn't care about his country men and his kingdom then it would be him stooping to using his soldiers as crest beasts, not Dedue. They put in a line explicitly showing Dimitri had ignorance of that plan, I think there's a reason for that. If they wanted to show that Dimitri was completely revenge obsessed and didn't have a care at all for his country then it would be him turning his soldiers into crests beasts and they would not be willing volunteers.

It's not a black and white aspect, it's me calling out the case of what is Dimitri's primary motivation. Because it's the motivation that is absurdly clear by his own admission and lines in CF. What you're also ignoring is the case of how they also put that Dimitri is willing to lie and deceive Rhea and make her be the bait as well, and how he's also abandoned the notion of fair and honorable fights. And how he's willing to fight to the last man.

And once again, trying to say that he didn't like people turning into Crest Beasts doesn't change how he's willing to accept it when it was happening. It's happening, so he ultimately chose to make use of it. This is ironic, given how Edelgard is criticized for the Crest Beast usage. In the end, even though Dimitri was not privy to the plan in the beginning, he overall complied with the use of the Crest Beasts still when it was happening, ultimately regarding it as a sacrifice. 

Which, again, is something that is ironic given that Edelgard gets criticized for. 

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7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

And once again, trying to say that he didn't like people turning into Crest Beasts doesn't change how he's willing to accept it when it was happening. It's happening, so he ultimately chose to make use of it. This is ironic, given how Edelgard is criticized for the Crest Beast usage. In the end, even though Dimitri was not privy to the plan in the beginning, he overall complied with the use of the Crest Beasts still when it was happening, ultimately regarding it as a sacrifice. 

Well it’s not like he can go back on that decision. Dedue and the rest of the army turned into demonic beasts of their own volition. it’s not like he can really do anything about it so he kinda has accept it because what can he do really to stop it. That whole thing is out of his control. If he had it his way then he wouldn’t have done it at all.

Edited by Ottservia

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1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

Well it’s not like he can go back on that decision. Dedue and the rest of the army turned into demonic beasts of their own volition. it’s not like he can really do anything about it so he kinda has accept it because what can he do really to stop it. That whole thing is out of his control. If he had it his way then he wouldn’t have done it at all.

This is easily contradicted by how he can still shout orders to his soldiers to keep fighting even when the Knights of Seiros retreat. If he can shout orders and issue commands as we've seen, the concept of him not being able to order his forces to NOT use the Crest Stones is already a failure on his part. So no, I don't believe that there was absolutely no choice and that it was actually all too late. 

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9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

This is easily contradicted by how he can still shout orders to his soldiers to keep fighting even when the Knights of Seiros retreat. If he can shout orders and issue commands as we've seen, the concept of him not being able to order his forces to NOT use the Crest Stones is already a failure on his part. So no, I don't believe that there was absolutely no choice and that it was actually all too late. 

The thing you’re not factoring in is the fact that Dimitri’s troops could’ve just not listened to him. I mean the whole demonic beast thing was already something done behind his back. It’s entirely possible that had he given the order they would’ve done it regardless. Also, again if Dimitri had it entirely his way he wouldn’t have allowed it at all. He would’ve advocated for a clean and fair fight without the use of demonic beasts. The fact that it happens at all is a surprise to him.

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16 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

The thing you’re not factoring in is the fact that Dimitri’s troops could’ve just not listened to him. I mean the whole demonic beast thing was already something done behind his back. It’s entirely possible that had he given the order they would’ve done it regardless. Also, again if Dimitri had it entirely his way he wouldn’t have allowed it at all. He would’ve advocated for a clean and fair fight without the use of demonic beasts. The fact that it happens at all is a surprise to him.

This is heavily assuming that the soldiers themselves are doing it behind his back. So the soldiers all know about this secret that their kind does not know? It's incredibly doubtful that they were aware that Dimitri didn't know of this at all. So the concept of claiming that the soldiers would disobey him is incredibly naive and working more on guesswork than anything. So saying that Dimitri could not have ordered his soldiers to not use the Crest Stones is still absurd, and even more absurd if none of his own soldiers would obey him. A king that cannot command his own soldiers? 

It is a surprise, but that does not change that Dimitri chose to simply accept it. Him having his way involves the Church fighting first and he flanks. But that doesn't change that he's going under the mentality that he'll do and accept anything. The Crest Beasts were done behind his back, and when it happened, Dimitri simply accepted it, rather than immediately issue orders to not use them. It goes to show that he's under the mindset that people criticize Edelgard for. 

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2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

This is heavily assuming that the soldiers themselves are doing it behind his back. So the soldiers all know about this secret that their kind does not know? It's incredibly doubtful that they were aware that Dimitri didn't know of this at all. So the concept of claiming that the soldiers would disobey him is incredibly naive and working more on guesswork than anything. So saying that Dimitri could not have ordered his soldiers to not use the Crest Stones is still absurd, and even more absurd if none of his own soldiers would obey him. A king that cannot command his own soldiers? 

It is a surprise, but that does not change that Dimitri chose to simply accept it. Him having his way involves the Church fighting first and he flanks. But that doesn't change that he's going under the mentality that he'll do and accept anything. The Crest Beasts were done behind his back, and when it happened, Dimitri simply accepted it, rather than immediately issue orders to not use them. It goes to show that he's under the mindset that people criticize Edelgard for. 

You know, there is something about the use of crest beasts that I realised lately. I used to believe that these transformations were permanent, but they do seem to be reversible. I have even seen evidence of crest beasts retaining sentience, does that mean that you will remain in full control of your actions after your transformation?

With all this in mind, it isn't as much of a sacrifice to use them as I first thought, if your sentience is retained and if the transformation is reversible, it probably looks a lot more unsettling than it actually is. With this in mind, and given that I think both Edelgard and Dedue only transformed volunteers, is the use of them necessarily as immoral as is often assumed? Other than the transformation being painful, is there a drawback to the use of a crest stone in this fashion?

So is the use of crest beasts actually evil. If the people who transformed are volunteers? I am not sure it is.

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7 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

It's not a black and white aspect, it's me calling out the case of what is Dimitri's primary motivation. Because it's the motivation that is absurdly clear by his own admission and lines in CF. What you're also ignoring is the case of how they also put that Dimitri is willing to lie and deceive Rhea and make her be the bait as well, and how he's also abandoned the notion of fair and honorable fights. And how he's willing to fight to the last man.

And once again, trying to say that he didn't like people turning into Crest Beasts doesn't change how he's willing to accept it when it was happening. It's happening, so he ultimately chose to make use of it. This is ironic, given how Edelgard is criticized for the Crest Beast usage. In the end, even though Dimitri was not privy to the plan in the beginning, he overall complied with the use of the Crest Beasts still when it was happening, ultimately regarding it as a sacrifice. 

Which, again, is something that is ironic given that Edelgard gets criticized for. 

I didn't ignore any of that. From the start I've been saying revenge is still part of him, but fighting for his countrymen is too. That's why he takes a moment to mourn every named character that dies.I didn't ignore any of that. From the start I've been saying revenge is still part of him, but fighting for his countrymen is too. That's why he takes a moment to mourn every named character that dies. It's about authorial intent, if revenge was meant to be seen as his only or even primary motives he would not be getting lines like that at all and he would have been privy to Dedue's plan. That actually would have been an excellent way of showing how he's willing to stoop as low as Edelgard, but they intentionally make it something he has no knowledge of before hand. Why, from a writing perspective, do that at all if it wasn't meant to mean something for his character (and yes, he does still use them in battle which also means something, but not as much as if it was his premeditated plan which they intentionally made it not).

Edited by Jotari

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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I didn't ignore any of that. From the start I've been saying revenge is still part of him, but fighting for his countrymen is too. That's why he takes a moment to mourn every named character that dies.I didn't ignore any of that. From the start I've been saying revenge is still part of him, but fighting for his countrymen is too. That's why he takes a moment to mourn every named character that dies. It's about authorial intent, if revenge was meant to be seen as his only or even primary motives he would not be getting lines like that at all and he would have been privy to Dedue's plan. That actually would have been an excellent way of showing how he's willing to stoop as low as Edelgard, but they intentionally make it something he has no knowledge of before hand. Why, from a writing perspective, do that at all if it wasn't meant to mean something for his character (and yes, he does still use them in battle which also means something, but not as much as if it was his premeditated plan which they intentionally made it not).

When you say stoop as low as Edelgard, I assume you are referring to Azure Moon Edelgard who also transformed into a demonic beast, right?

While I am not entirely convinced it is really all that much of a sacrifice. Given that you can return from that state, it would have been neat to see a Dimitri version of the Hedgemon Husk just to complete the parallel between the two routes. But as I said, these transformations would be more dramatic if it was a point of no return, which would really drive in the sacrifice and the desperation needed to stoop to that level. As it is, if I knew that volunteering to transform into a demonic beast meant I would transform back after battle, I wouldn't have any problem volunteering as I wouldn't really lose much and just increase my chance of surviving the battle significantly.

 

I discovered this artwork of Dimitri as the hegemon husk, looks quite cool. 

ED-1bR3UYAAVhZy.jpg

 

tumblr_pwwmu0M6jd1tchom3o2_500.png

When it comes to Edelgard as the Hegemon Husk, I find this design incredibly disturbing and I think I have figured out why. Not only is Edelgard a person I love dearly, so I hate seeing her like this (hate in a good way, it is generally a good sign when a game to make you feel emotions this strong). It is not only that, but that unlike other demonic beasts, she retains just enough of her humanity so she is still recognisable as Edelgard, but so much is off about her, especially those glowing unblinking eyes. I also noticed that thing behind the neck resemble a wilting flower, a name that is fitting for Edelgard at her lowest point when everything is pretty much lost. Considering how she's usually the crimson flower, this once beautiful thing, body and soul, horribly tainted by the reality of war to be only a husk of what she once was. The exact opposite of crimson flower Edelgard where she is at her highest point and has been fully realised as a character and person.

Still, even at this point I wouldn't call Edelgard evil, in fact, the motive for this transformation is somewhat noble, "my soldiers has done this for me so I will do the same for them". But it is a testament to just how much Edelgard is willing to sacrifice for her cause. Edelgard usually values her humanity quite highly, but she is willing to throw even that away. If it is necessary for victory.

But the point about sacrifice might have been stronger if this transformation was irreversible. It would carry even more weight.

Edit: I have seen friends pointing out to me that the hegemon husk actually resemble a hybrid between Edelgard and a dragon, which makes sense given the nature of the crest stones. Even those glowing eyes are actually quite similar to those of The Immaculate One, but red instead of yellow. In fact, these eyes are present in all demonic beasts, meaning that the transformations are due to taking on Nabatean physical traits due to the nature of crest stones and how they were created.

Edited by Darkmoon6789

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18 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Edit: I have seen friends pointing out to me that the hegemon husk actually resemble a hybrid between Edelgard and a dragon, which makes sense given the nature of the crest stones. Even those glowing eyes are actually quite similar to those of The Immaculate One, but red instead of yellow. In fact, these eyes are present in all demonic beasts, meaning that the transformations are due to taking on Nabatean physical traits due to the nature of crest stones and how they were created.

One thing I would've liked to see (if they'd had the time and budget) was more unique designs for Demonic Beasts. Granted most of the ones we see use Artificial Crest Stones, but even so, Miklan (using the stone of Gautier's Crest) and Maurice don't look all that different from the generic ones.

Edited by Sid Starkiller

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9 hours ago, Jotari said:

I didn't ignore any of that. From the start I've been saying revenge is still part of him, but fighting for his countrymen is too. That's why he takes a moment to mourn every named character that dies.I didn't ignore any of that. From the start I've been saying revenge is still part of him, but fighting for his countrymen is too. That's why he takes a moment to mourn every named character that dies. It's about authorial intent, if revenge was meant to be seen as his only or even primary motives he would not be getting lines like that at all and he would have been privy to Dedue's plan. That actually would have been an excellent way of showing how he's willing to stoop as low as Edelgard, but they intentionally make it something he has no knowledge of before hand. Why, from a writing perspective, do that at all if it wasn't meant to mean something for his character (and yes, he does still use them in battle which also means something, but not as much as if it was his premeditated plan which they intentionally made it not).

Primary and secondary makes all the difference. First and foremost, he's fighting for revenge. Even if you say that he is fighting to defend his country, that is not his primary reason. He's in this war for a reason that has been made clear by him and his own friends: revenge. 

Also, stoop as low as Edelgard? Edelgard doesn't demand the creation of the Crest Beasts. She despises the use of it. She accepts it because it's already done. The Agarthans are not under her direct control. They do their deeds behind her back, proven by many of the stuff in Part 1. She has no knowledge of the things they do. Dimitri is just like that, in that he had no knowledge, but when they happen, he chooses to use them because it's already happened.

Just as CF Dimitri literally allied himself with Rhea. She was a means to an end for him to get revenge on Edelgard. And for the record, there's NO way he was not aware that Rhea was going insane. NPCs in CF remark how Rhea's changed and started to talk and laugh to herself. 

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13 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Also, stoop as low as Edelgard? Edelgard doesn't demand the creation of the Crest Beasts. She despises the use of it. She accepts it because it's already done. The Agarthans are not under her direct control. They do their deeds behind her back, proven by many of the stuff in Part 1. She has no knowledge of the things they do. Dimitri is just like that, in that he had no knowledge, but when they happen, he chooses to use them because it's already happened.

While that has some truth in it she is not that innocent as you describe her. Even if she disapproves of their actions she is quite willingly to help them by giving them  the death knight and aiding their attack on the holy mausoleum to steal the crest stones. At this point it was quite clear what they are going to be used to ....

Ok one can argue she had no other choice to fullfill her dream, but that can be used to defend each and every depicable act imaginable.

 

To the dimitri discussion. I do not believe that in Azure Moon "Helping his Country men" was on the same level of importance as "Revenge". The Choice between going to gronder and attacking Fhirdiad in early AM was literally the choice between the two options, and we all know what he decided .... it was only after his character development that the priorities shifted.

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6 minutes ago, Nihilem said:

While that has some truth in it she is not that innocent as you describe her. Even if she disapproves of their actions she is quite willingly to help them by giving them  the death knight and aiding their attack on the holy mausoleum to steal the crest stones. At this point it was quite clear what they are going to be used to ....

Ok one can argue she had no other choice to fullfill her dream, but that can be used to defend each and every depicable act imaginable.

 

To the dimitri discussion. I do not believe that in Azure Moon "Helping his Country men" was on the same level of importance as "Revenge". The Choice between going to gronder and attacking Fhirdiad in early AM was literally the choice between the two options, and we all know what he decided .... it was only after his character development that the priorities shifted.

The Dimitri discussion is in regards to his CF version, which I'm point out to be the case of him still prioritizing revenge over his countrymen. Cause as you said that it was only after his development, something that he lacks outside of AM.

As for the case of how Dimitri was acting like Edelgard, it's the case of how Dimitri was willing to ally himself with Rhea and use her for the sake of getting his own goals for revenge, even though Dimitri should have been aware that Rhea was losing it, given how NPCs remark of the degradation of Rhea's sanity in quotes. And it's because he allied himself with Rhea that after his death, Rhea locked herself and the civilians inside Fhirdiad, and then set it on fire. 

Yes, Dimitri can be blamed for what happened even if he's dead, cause ultimately, she's only in the position she is in to set Fhirdiad on fire cause Dimitri allied himself with Rhea.

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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

The Dimitri discussion is in regards to his CF version, which I'm point out to be the case of him still prioritizing revenge over his countrymen. Cause as you said that it was only after his development, something that he lacks outside of AM.

I should have written it properly more clearly but that is what I meant. The reason for his development were the bonds created by Byleth and the death of his uncle. Both is missing in CF so I dont think that he values saving his countrymen over revenge.

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

As for the case of how Dimitri was acting like Edelgard, it's the case of how Dimitri was willing to ally himself with Rhea and use her for the sake of getting his own goals for revenge, even though Dimitri should have been aware that Rhea was losing it, given how NPCs remark of the degradation of Rhea's sanity in quotes. And it's because he allied himself with Rhea that after his death, Rhea locked herself and the civilians inside Fhirdiad, and then set it on fire. 

Yes, Dimitri can be blamed for what happened even if he's dead, cause ultimately, she's only in the position she is in to set Fhirdiad on fire cause Dimitri allied himself with Rhea.

That on the other side makes no sense. Going from "Talking to one self" to "Burning your own City" is quite a big lead and could not at any way be predicted by Dimitri. Also the alternity was to let themselves get conquered by Edelgard who was known to work with people who do horrible experiments and the country folk. Therefore the bigger thread for his people in his eyes definetly was Edelgard.

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43 minutes ago, Nihilem said:

While that has some truth in it she is not that innocent as you describe her. Even if she disapproves of their actions she is quite willingly to help them by giving them  the death knight and aiding their attack on the holy mausoleum to steal the crest stones. At this point it was quite clear what they are going to be used to ....

Ok one can argue she had no other choice to fullfill her dream, but that can be used to defend each and every depicable act imaginable.

 

To the dimitri discussion. I do not believe that in Azure Moon "Helping his Country men" was on the same level of importance as "Revenge". The Choice between going to gronder and attacking Fhirdiad in early AM was literally the choice between the two options, and we all know what he decided .... it was only after his character development that the priorities shifted.

 

She isn't completely innocent, but she also isn't entirely guilty. I don't think people properly understand that the power dynamic at this point was heavily in favour of the Agarthans, they always held power over her and the Empire and had done so since Edelgard was a child. I think the incident with Cornelia proves that it can be dangerous to defy the wishes of the Agarthans.

I do think that Edelgard and Dimitri are pretty much on the same level, morally speaking, they are both genuinely good people who are responsible for some awful acts due to circumstances. It is just that I think that in guards motives of doing open things because they are necessary to achieve a better future is more noble than doing awful acts because you want revenge. One motive is unselfish and the other inherently selfish.

It is also important to point out that as a ruler, if you are not willing to make sacrifices for the greater good, you are unfit to rule in my opinion. There is also the saying: "all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing". Meaning that you can also be responsible for what happens. By being unwilling to act as well as acting. As a ruler it is your responsibility to make tough decisions that sometimes don't have a clear answer, but it is your duty to make them regardless. There is no such thing as a morally pure ruler, they only existing fables, the position itself necessitates getting your hands dirty.

Edited by Darkmoon6789

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1 minute ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I do think that it'll guard and Dimitri are pretty much on the same level, morally speaking, they are both genuinely good people who are responsible for some awful acts due to circumstances. It is just that I think that in guards motives of doing open things because they are necessary to achieve a better future is more noble than doing awful acts because you want revenge. One motive is unselfish and the other inherently selfish.

While the parts about the motive is true I wouldnt say that Dimitris "evil actions" are on the same scale as Edelgards. Dimitri went on a personal vendetta and then against Empire Military and then defended his realm against an agressor while Edelgard started a continent wide war which impacted the lives of uncountable people, not to think what horros the Argathians were comitting who she helped to get to power (even if it only was for a time). Also the "better future" part only applies to humans. I know the game makes its easy by saying that there are only 3 manaketes left, where one went insane and the other two either killed in battle or flied to a distant country.... but if there would have been others hidden amoung the populance of either of the three nations their future would propably be quite dark...

I actually think that this part would be a really nice oppurtunety to give her some character development. The point that all manaketes are evil shemers simply because of their race stinks for Agarthian Propaganda and that Edelgard did not question that even once is unfortunate. Denying that point of core Argathian Ideology would have shown that she is cutting herself through the web of lies they have spinned around her....

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31 minutes ago, Nihilem said:

While the parts about the motive is true I wouldnt say that Dimitris "evil actions" are on the same scale as Edelgards. Dimitri went on a personal vendetta and then against Empire Military and then defended his realm against an agressor while Edelgard started a continent wide war which impacted the lives of uncountable people, not to think what horros the Argathians were comitting who she helped to get to power (even if it only was for a time). Also the "better future" part only applies to humans. I know the game makes its easy by saying that there are only 3 manaketes left, where one went insane and the other two either killed in battle or flied to a distant country.... but if there would have been others hidden amoung the populance of either of the three nations their future would propably be quite dark...

I actually think that this part would be a really nice oppurtunety to give her some character development. The point that all manaketes are evil shemers simply because of their race stinks for Agarthian Propaganda and that Edelgard did not question that even once is unfortunate. Denying that point of core Argathian Ideology would have shown that she is cutting herself through the web of lies they have spinned around her....

I don't think that Edelgard wants to kill every single Dragon just for the crime of being a dragon. In fact, the only one of the species die during the entire war in a playthrough was Rhea, with both Flayn and Seteth surviving. 

If you pay attention to little parts ideology, she hates anyone being put above others because of circumstances of their birth. Her problem with Rhea's people is that they take a leadership role and think they know better than humans simply because of their species. Edelgard wants humanity to have control of their own destiny and not be ruled over by immortal creatures who think they know better than humans and make decisions over what technology they are allowed to have or not. The problem is essentially the same as the nobility, claiming superiority over commoners because of their supposedly superior bloodline. 

I don't think she fully believe the Agarthans fully, she should know better than anyone that they are untrustworthy. 

Also, about Dimitri, if he personally ordered the genocide on the people of Duscur he would be worse than Edelgard in every way. It is fortunate for him that I don't think he did, he merely participated and therefore his involvement and responsibility was on level with a soldier rather than a ruler. Still, the fact that the kingdom in this particular war went out of their way to kill civilians, men, women and children, anyone they could find. This is way worse than what Edelgard does during the war. She doesn't go out of her way to kill innocents, if civilians die it is indirectly or because of the Agarthans.

I do actually consider monarchs to have the right to declare war, it is their behaviour during the war that is more important to determining their character and their reasoning for declaring the war in the first place. It is just that modern people have such a bad understanding of the realities of mediaeval politics. We have an aversion to any kind of conflict that simply didn't exist at the earlier point in history. If we compare Edelgard to historical counterparts like Napoleon, you would find that Edelgard is a vastly superior ruler from both motives and policies.

Edit: 

And I should also mention that Edelgard does offer Rhea a chance to surrender before they attack the city, she also kind of doesn't kill her in the non-crimson flower timelines. So it is quite clear that the goal isn't to exterminate her people. Whatever it is the Agarthans want.

I think Edelgard just expects that she has to kill Rhea, but she will offer her the chance to surrender regardless even if she knows it is fruitless

Edited by Darkmoon6789

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6 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I don't think that Edelgard wants to kill every single Dragon just for the crime of being a dragon. In fact, the only one of the species die during the entire war in a playthrough was Rhea, with both Flayn and Seteth surviving. 

The one sparring Flayn and Seteth is Byleth not Edelgard.

Then she has a funny way of showing that. In all the routes whenever she was dialogue with any of the manaketes she always refers them to their entire race instead of their allegiange or person. For example in her S-Support she says something like "finally the children of the godess have lost..." Not "Rhea has Lost" or "The Church has lost" but "Children of the Godess" as in their entire race has lost. In AZ/VW or SS she also quotes it like this when beeing attacked by Flayn e.g. . I admit that given the name it is easy to confuse them with the church, but it still is the name they have given to their race (as Nabatean is never beeing said in CF or AM, the other routes I currently dont know) even if one does not have a position inside the church.

As I said unfortunately the game took the easy route we cannot say completly for certain what would happen....

6 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

If you pay attention to little parts ideology, she hates anyone being put above others because of circumstances of their birth. Her problem with Rhea's people is that they take a leadership role and think they know better than humans simply because of their species. Edelgard wants humanity to have control of their own destiny and not be ruled over by immortal creatures who think they know better than humans and make decisions over what technology they are allowed to have or not. The problem is essentially the same as the nobility, claiming superiority over commoners because of their supposedly superior bloodline. 

That is exactly the problem. That description fits maybe on Rhea and to a lesser decree also on Seteth but in no way shape or form can I see Flayn as an evil shadowy shemer. But Edelgard threads them all as if they all were Rhea. My point it that it would be a really nice and important character development if that would somehow handled in CF.

 

6 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Also, about Dimitri, if he personally ordered the genocide on the people of Duscur he would be worse than Edelgard in every way. It is fortunate for him that I don't think he did, he merely participated and therefore his involvement and responsibility was on level with a soldier rather than a ruler. Still, the fact that the kingdom in this particular war went out of their way to kill civilians, men, women and children, anyone they could find. This is way worse than what Edelgard does during the war. She doesn't go out of her way to kill innocents, if civilians die it is indirectly or because of the Agarthans.

What makes you think Dimitri has ever supported the Duscur Massacre? On the contrary he secretly helps them in his paralogue in White Clouds.

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45 minutes ago, Nihilem said:

The one sparring Flayn and Seteth is Byleth not Edelgard.

Then she has a funny way of showing that. In all the routes whenever she was dialogue with any of the manaketes she always refers them to their entire race instead of their allegiange or person. For example in her S-Support she says something like "finally the children of the godess have lost..." Not "Rhea has Lost" or "The Church has lost" but "Children of the Godess" as in their entire race has lost. In AZ/VW or SS she also quotes it like this when beeing attacked by Flayn e.g. . I admit that given the name it is easy to confuse them with the church, but it still is the name they have given to their race (as Nabatean is never beeing said in CF or AM, the other routes I currently dont know) even if one does not have a position inside the church.

As I said unfortunately the game took the easy route we cannot say completly for certain what would happen....

That is exactly the problem. That description fits maybe on Rhea and to a lesser decree also on Seteth but in no way shape or form can I see Flayn as an evil shadowy shemer. But Edelgard threads them all as if they all were Rhea. My point it that it would be a really nice and important character development if that would somehow handled in CF.

 

What makes you think Dimitri has ever supported the Duscur Massacre? On the contrary he secretly helps them in his paralogue in White Clouds.

Edelgard was standing like two feet from Byleth when the both of them got spared, I really doubt it. She wasn't aware of it. I think she just doesn't care if they survive or not as long as they get out of her way. Usually it is Byleth who is capable of sparing people anyway, regardless of route, the only exception I am seen to this is that it is possible to spare Claude if you finish him with Edelgard. 

Edelgard doesn't actually know much about Flayn, but I think she do suspect she is older than she looks, how can she know for certain, she isn't a schemer? Edelgard really doesn't have much information about them, and most of what she does know comes from either her father or the Agarthans, and the latter is probably the most biased source you could get. But in the end I think it is very unlikely she will bother hunting down any surviving nabateans once they are out of power. 

Also, didn't Dimitri participate in the genocide, even if he did disapprove it? In fact, I believe that is the primary reason for his massive guilt in the first part of the game. By the way, I do not consider Edelgard to be some kind of low standard of morality, so when I say that I believe she and Dimitri is on the same level, I mean it in the sense that they are both generally good people. They are both responsible for doing some crappy things and they both do feel bad about it. Yes, there is indeed evidence that Edelgard feels rather bad about the things she did or allowed to happen during the war. It is clear from a lot of her dialogue that all of this bloodshed is weighing heavily on her. Both Edelgard and Dimitri would actually make amazing rulers, if their are side wins the war.

By this point, I should probably mention that I actually consider all three nations in Fodlan to be rather crappy. The kingdom of Faerghus are obsessed with martial conflict. Their cultural obsession with vengeance as a form of justice led to one of the worst atrocities committed in the entire game, Edelgard's war included. While the Agarthans are responsible for the death of King Lambert, they did not force the kingdom to commit genocide, that's were all their own doing. The Leicester alliance is an unstable mass with constant infighting between the nobles that most likely will devolve into splitting into smaller and smaller nations, under the control of each Lord unless something is done. And the Adrestian Empire is almost completely controlled by its corrupt nobility, who is also in the pocket of a sinister cult. 

All three house leaders are in fact, way better than what is the norm for their respective nations and each will lead their nation to become better than they were previously. Edelgard leads the Empire into an era where commoners have a say in their society and gets rid of the horribly corrupt nobility and replaces them with people actually capable of performing their roles for the betterment of society instead of just to benefit themselves. I also doubt that anything like the genocide committed in Duscur would ever occur again with Dimitri as King and I think Claude would be able to curb most of the infighting.

So in my opinion, neither Edelgard, Dimitri or Claude are bad people, they are all shining beacons who has the potential of changing the world for the better. But they are all also flawed human beings whose decisions aren't always ideal. 

Edited by Darkmoon6789

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51 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Edelgard was standing like two feet from Byleth when the both of them got spared, I really doubt it. She wasn't aware of it. I think she just doesn't care if they survive or not as long as they get out of her way. Usually it is Byleth who is capable of sparing people anyway, regardless of route, the only exception I am seen to this is that it is possible to spare Claude if you finish him with Edelgard. 

The game doesnt track where Edelgard is when you spare Seteth and Flayn. The only necessary action is for byleth to attack them. If Edelgard attacks them they die. So Byleth spared them. Not Edelgard.

51 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Edelgard doesn't actually know much about Flayn, but I think she do suspect she is older than she looks, how can she know for certain, she isn't a schemer? Edelgard really doesn't have much information about them, and most of what she does know comes from either her father or the Agarthans, and the latter is probably the most biased source you could get. But in the end I think it is very unlikely she will bother hunting down any surviving nabateans once they are out of power. 

That may be. Or it may not. Everything here is headcanon. I just wished that game actually dealt with this problem instead of taking the easy route.

 

 

51 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Also, didn't Dimitri participate in the genocide, even if he did disapprove it? In fact, I believe that is the primary reason for his massive guilt in the first part of the game.

That would be news to me. It is mentioned that he put out some rebellions but never (to my knowledge) it was mentioned to be duscur citizens. Do you have a quote? Then I will check.

 

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4 minutes ago, Nihilem said:

The game doesnt track where Edelgard is when you spare Seteth and Flayn. The only necessary action is for byleth to attack them. If Edelgard attacks them they die. So Byleth spared them. Not Edelgard.

That may be. Or it may not. Everything here is headcanon. I just wished that game actually dealt with this problem instead of taking the easy route.

 

 

That would be news to me. It is mentioned that he put out some rebellions but never (to my knowledge) it was mentioned to be duscur citizens. Do you have a quote? Then I will check.

 

Nevertheless, I find it very unlikely that Edelgard wouldn't know that Byleth spared them. I also think that she would consider this course of action acceptable as she would trust Byleth in knowing what he/she is doing. Also, did you hear what they said about Edelgard even giving Rhea a chance to surrender?

You are right about one thing, the game doesn't exactly specify a lot of details about this so, meaning that we really only have speculation based on what we do know to go on. I just know that Edelgard is very focused on what is necessary, but she usually doesn't go beyond what she feels is necessary. She can be kind and considerate when she feels she can afford it. She is also one of very few people in Fodlan without any bigotry towards the Almyrans. She just isn't the monster people often make her out to be

You should probably take what they say about Dimitri with a grain of salt, as of yet I have finished crimson flower and most of verdant wind. I am still very early on with the Blue Lions so my knowledge is the least complete on that front. There is a reason I included a questionmark, I was asking you if he did participate. I thought I heard it was mentioned that Dimitri spared Dedue during the tragedy and that is why he is so loyal to him. I also heard that Dimitri led a squad during the tragedy. Despite only being 14, but I can't confirm that for certain. 

If he didn't participate during the massacre however, when did the event, Felix started hating him for occur? When he first saw Dimitri as the boar. 

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Dimitri never took part in Duscur. He explicitly expresses extreme regret that he was powerless to stop it and is still powerless as he's too young to take the throne. The rebellion that Felix hates him over was a minor one involving citizens of the Kingdom after the Duscur massacre and was not a full scale genocide. If I'm remembering my timelines correctly, Dimitri was 9 when Lambert was killed and the people of Duscur were almost immediately afterward blamed and targeted. The rebellion that Dimitri helped put down was when he was around 14. However this is me working on pure recall.

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2 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Nevertheless, I find it very unlikely that Edelgard wouldn't know that Byleth spared them. I also think that she would consider this course of action acceptable as she would trust Byleth in knowing what he/she is doing. Also, did you hear what they said about Edelgard even giving Rhea a chance to surrender?

You are right about one thing, the game doesn't exactly specify a lot of details about this so, meaning that we really only have speculation based on what we do know to go on. I just know that Edelgard is very focused on what is necessary, but she usually doesn't go beyond what she feels is necessary. She can be kind and considerate when she feels she can afford it. She is also one of very few people in Fodlan without any bigotry towards the Almyrans. She just isn't the monster people often make her out to be

I think she surprised after the mission that Flayn and Seteth retreated. Also killing them for beeing manaketes is ofc the worst way of discrimination but not the only one. As you already have mentioned:

"Edelgard wants humanity to have control of their own destiny and not be ruled over by immortal creatures who think they know better than humans and make decisions over what technology they are allowed to have or not. "

She wants humans to be in control. So do you truely believe she would allow a manakete to have any influencial position in her new found empire? Then you may have more faith in Edelgard then I do. Which is why I wished to have this development in the CF story line.

 

2 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

 

If he didn't participate during the massacre however, when did the event, Felix started hating him for occur? When he first saw Dimitri as the boar. 

I think they only mentioned that he battled (brutally) some rebells. Nether is it stated that he harmend duscurians for beeing duscurians, and unarmend ones exspecilly not. i dont remember something like that not at least

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2 hours ago, Nihilem said:

That is exactly the problem. That description fits maybe on Rhea and to a lesser decree also on Seteth but in no way shape or form can I see Flayn as an evil shadowy shemer. But Edelgard threads them all as if they all were Rhea. My point it that it would be a really nice and important character development if that would somehow handled in CF.

I agree with the notion but at the same time it would be very hard to pull it off. Unlike the other lords, Edelgard is in the akward situation where those who can prove her wrong have no business whatsoever doing it. From their part, one of the many reasons Rhea, Seteth and Flayn hide their true identity is because they wanna prevent another slaughterfest like the one it happened in Zanado, so confessing the truth against their enemy would be very risky and suicidal thing to do. In Arundel/Thales's case, he wins absolutely nothing by making Edelgard feel anything resembling sympathy against their common enemy, so he has no reasons to correct her either.

On a more similar vein, I think the writers did a fantastic job with making a conflict that simply cannot be defused. The whole thing relies on so many clashing factors, ideologies, contrivances and even specific character flaws that only a literal miracle could solve everything without no one actually dying (which is why I also think there's no way for 3Hs to ever have a Golden Route).

Edited by Moltz23

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9 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Dimitri never took part in Duscur. He explicitly expresses extreme regret that he was powerless to stop it and is still powerless as he's too young to take the throne. The rebellion that Felix hates him over was a minor one involving citizens of the Kingdom after the Duscur massacre and was not a full scale genocide. If I'm remembering my timelines correctly, Dimitri was 9 when Lambert was killed and the people of Duscur were almost immediately afterward blamed and targeted. The rebellion that Dimitri helped put down was when he was around 14. However this is me working on pure recall.

Thanks, I was uncertain about that. I guess he just manages to blame himself for it anyway, despite not participating. By the way, wasn't both Edelgard and Dimitri 11, when they met in the kingdom? Meaning that the genocide in Duscur must have occurred when he was older than that. I do believe Edelgard was 12 when she returned to the Empire and was imprisoned by her fake uncle. I could be wrong but I think the tragedy occurred around this time.

 

17 minutes ago, Nihilem said:

I think she surprised after the mission that Flayn and Seteth retreated. Also killing them for beeing manaketes is ofc the worst way of discrimination but not the only one. As you already have mentioned:

"Edelgard wants humanity to have control of their own destiny and not be ruled over by immortal creatures who think they know better than humans and make decisions over what technology they are allowed to have or not. "

She wants humans to be in control. So do you truely believe she would allow a manakete to have any influencial position in her new found empire? Then you may have more faith in Edelgard then I do. Which is why I wished to have this development in the CF story line.

 

I think they only mentioned that he battled (brutally) some rebells. Nether is it stated that he harmend duscurians for beeing duscurians, and unarmend ones exspecilly not. i dont remember something like that not at least

I definitely am quite a lot of faith in Edelgard, but considering the history of Fodlan, I do find it unlikely she would allow a Nabatean in a position of power, mostly because it would be extremely hard to get out of that position thanks to them being immortal, she would do this out of fear that history would repeat themselves and they ended up in control for thousands of years, I don't think she would want a single emperor in power for that long. On the other hand, she is for the equality of everyone and she considers Byleth to be a Nabatean(she mentions this immediately before the final battle, she's wrong, but she has reasons to believe she might be one of Rhea's people), who she raised to the highest office possible in the Empire, her co-ruler. So I guess it is not completely impossible, if they proved themselves to her. Byleth has definitely proven that they are trustworthy by standing up for Edelgard against Rhea. 

 

14 minutes ago, Moltz23 said:

I agree with the notion but at the same time it would be very hard to pull it off, as Edelgard is in the akward situation where those who can prove her bias against the Nabateans in unjustified have no business whatsoever doing it. From their part, Rhea, Seteth and Flayn hide their true identity because they wanna prevent another slaughterfest like the one it happened in Zanado, while Arundel/Thales wins absolutely nothing by making Edelgard feel anything resembling sympathy against their common enemy.

You are correct, the Agarthans have an incentive to make Edelgard hate the Nabateans as much as possible. The only person I could think of the who would be able to counter this notion would be Byleth, and I am uncertain how much they really know in this route. But if Edelgard do believe Byleth to be one of Rhea's people. Their example, might prove to her that they are not all evil.

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18 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Thanks, I was uncertain about that. I guess he just manages to blame himself for it anyway, despite not participating. By the way, wasn't both Edelgard and Dimitri 11, when they met in the kingdom? Meaning that the genocide in Duscur must have occurred when he was older than that. I do believe Edelgard was 12 when she returned to the Empire and was imprisoned by her fake uncle. I could be wrong but I think the tragedy occurred around this time.

She was taken in Imperial Year 1171, making her 9, and returned to the Empire in Imperial Year 1174, making her 12. You are right about Duscur, it happened in Imperial Year 1176, making her 14 and Dimitri is the same age as her. Duscur occured in 1176 and Dimitri fought his first battle in 1178. It is worth mentioning that Dimitri was there when Duscur happened, as that's where he managed to save Dedue. However Dedue was the only one he was able to save. So Dimitri was 14 when Duscur happened and 16 when he fought his first battle to put down rebels. He's 17 at the start of the game and turns 18 on Etheral Moon (December) 20th.

Amazing the things being on a computer and able to look up timelines helps lol.

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