The True Tragedy of Three Houses

[omegaxis1]

8 hours ago, Nihilem said:

That on the other side makes no sense. Going from "Talking to one self" to "Burning your own City" is quite a big lead and could not at any way be predicted by Dimitri. Also the alternity was to let themselves get conquered by Edelgard who was known to work with people who do horrible experiments and the country folk. Therefore the bigger thread for his people in his eyes definetly was Edelgard.

It's easy. Dimitri would easily know that Rhea is not in the right sense of mind. Her being there is dangerous. She's insane and is not exactly beneficial for his countrymen. Just as Edelgard knows the Agarthans are not good for her people either. But why? Because it's the "enemy of my enemy" belief, that CF Dimitri will do what Edelgard did. Only where Edelgard is trying to fulfill the purpose of freeing humanity from the rule of dragons, while Dimitri, as you said, prioritizes revenge.

7 hours ago, Nihilem said:

That is exactly the problem. That description fits maybe on Rhea and to a lesser decree also on Seteth but in no way shape or form can I see Flayn as an evil shadowy shemer. But Edelgard threads them all as if they all were Rhea. My point it that it would be a really nice and important character development if that would somehow handled in CF.

Edelgard is never meant to understand Rhea. It's also why Edelgard never meets Indech in the paralogue he is fought in. Had she met Indech, she'd have questions she'd want answers to. The clash at the end is for Edelgard to call Rhea out on not caring about humanity. It's a case where Dimitri, Claude, and Rhea never understood Edelgard in the other routes either.

5 hours ago, Nihilem said:

She wants humans to be in control. So do you truely believe she would allow a manakete to have any influencial position in her new found empire? Then you may have more faith in Edelgard then I do. Which is why I wished to have this development in the CF story line.

Yeah, cause look what happened to Fodlan thanks to Rhea. Over 1200 years of horrid things.

Edelgard would be fine with someone like Tiki, hailed as the Voice of Naga. Why? Because Tiki has no political power or authority. She is someone that people view as a symbol, but not someone that rules over humans. Edelgard's issue is dragons actually ruling over humans.

Ironically, this is something similar to what Naga always said, that dragons and humans cannot fully coexist. This isn't even about being racist. They are two literally different species with different physiologies, lifespan, etc. 

Coexistence is going to be nigh impossible unless there's a way of the two species getting together, and then basically popping out kids, ultimately allowing the two to evolve in a way that allows true harmony. 

Like the Tellius series, had the Branded been accepted, it would have been a symbolic form of union between the two species, and slowly, it'd be an evolution.

[Darkmoon6789]

7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

It's easy. Dimitri would easily know that Rhea is not in the right sense of mind. Her being there is dangerous. She's insane and is not exactly beneficial for his countrymen. Just as Edelgard knows the Agarthans are not good for her people either. But why? Because it's the "enemy of my enemy" belief, that CF Dimitri will do what Edelgard did. Only where Edelgard is trying to fulfill the purpose of freeing humanity from the rule of dragons, while Dimitri, as you said, prioritizes revenge.

Edelgard is never meant to understand Rhea. It's also why Edelgard never meets Indech in the paralogue he is fought in. Had she met Indech, she'd have questions she'd want answers to. The clash at the end is for Edelgard to call Rhea out on not caring about humanity. It's a case where Dimitri, Claude, and Rhea never understood Edelgard in the other routes either.

Yeah, cause look what happened to Fodlan thanks to Rhea. Over 1200 years of horrid things.

Edelgard would be fine with someone like Tiki, hailed as the Voice of Naga. Why? Because Tiki has no political power or authority. She is someone that people view as a symbol, but not someone that rules over humans. Edelgard's issue is dragons actually ruling over humans.

Ironically, this is something similar to what Naga always said, that dragons and humans cannot fully coexist. This isn't even about being racist. They are two literally different species with different physiologies, lifespan, etc. 

Coexistence is going to be nigh impossible unless there's a way of the two species getting together, and then basically popping out kids, ultimately allowing the two to evolve in a way that allows true harmony. 

Like the Tellius series, had the Branded been accepted, it would have been a symbolic form of union between the two species, and slowly, it'd be an evolution.

Maybe the best solution would be for the Nabateans to create a separate nation of their own, there are some inherent problems with trying to make a society work for both them and humans. They just naturally tend to end up on top of things. Thanks to their long life spans and they are different enough so that they might not always understand what is truly best for humanity. 

I wonder if their species would be able to repopulate just from Flayn and Seteth, I am assuming they can crossbreed with humans, otherwise they are pretty screwed. 

I don't really believe Edelgard to be a racist, like you said, her issue is with an ruling over humanity, not with them existing. Her Agarthan allies however is a different story. There is also the fact that Byleth was believed by her to be one of Rhea's people. So obviously she is okay with some of them. 

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Maybe the best solution would be for the Nabateans to create a separate nation of their own, there are some inherent problems with trying to make a society work for both them and humans. They just naturally tend to end up on top of things. Thanks to their long life spans and they are different enough so that they might not always understand what is truly best for humanity. 

I wonder if their species would be able to repopulate just from Flayn and Seteth, I am assuming they can crossbreed with humans, otherwise they are pretty screwed. 

I don't really believe Edelgard to be a racist, like you said, her issue is with an ruling over humanity, not with them existing. Her Agarthan allies however is a different story. There is also the fact that Byleth was believed by her to be one of Rhea's people. So obviously she is okay with some of them. 

Rhea didn't establish a good sense of faith by doing nothing but hiding the truth from everyone and preaching a religion, while never trying to actually help properly guide humanity. Rhea had over a thousand years to actually prevent humanity from being obsessed with Crests. A thousand years to prevent Fodlan from becoming xenophobic. But she didn't. She was obsessed with reviving Sothis. Understandable, given her trauma, but it made Rhea overall neglect what she should have done. 

Seteth is overall compliant, and Flayn is ignorant, but still believes that Rhea did nothing wrong. 

And yeah, Edelgard clearly shows affection to Byleth, but made it clear that she knows that Byleth is connected to the goddess, and therefore, believed that there was no way Byleth would ever side with her. And yeah, it's very much the case that dragons and humans can crossbreed. It happened with Manaketes in previous games.

[Nihilem]

Does Edelgard actually believe Byleth to be an Manakete? She mentioned that she believes him beeing conected to Rhea in some form (said so before the final battle), but is there any point in CF were she does not see him as a human?

 

Also the idea with the "Country for Manaketes" they actually tried in Zanado. Well it was more like a village, because there are not that many Manaketes. And we all now how that turned out....

 

50 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

It's easy. Dimitri would easily know that Rhea is not in the right sense of mind. Her being there is dangerous. She's insane and is not exactly beneficial for his countrymen. Just as Edelgard knows the Agarthans are not good for her people either. But why? Because it's the "enemy of my enemy" belief, that CF Dimitri will do what Edelgard did. Only where Edelgard is trying to fulfill the purpose of freeing humanity from the rule of dragons, while Dimitri, as you said, prioritizes revenge.

With the difference that the Slitherers have proven to do horrible things like human experimentation and creating diseases (and leeting them loose an imperial citizen) while Rhea to my knowledge has not hurt a single Faerghus citizen before her rampage. If that person was not a traitor trying to kill her (If you want to count the militia under Lonatos rebellion and the western church as Faerghus citizens, which I dont do because they are well ... rebels...). And definetly no unarmed civillians like the slitherers have done. If you think this actions are comparable then that might be your opinion ... but I cant understand it ...

50 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Edelgard is never meant to understand Rhea. It's also why Edelgard never meets Indech in the paralogue he is fought in. Had she met Indech, she'd have questions she'd want answers to. The clash at the end is for Edelgard to call Rhea out on not caring about humanity. It's a case where Dimitri, Claude, and Rhea never understood Edelgard in the other routes either.

Yes and that I find unfortunate.

 

50 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah, cause look what happened to Fodlan thanks to Rhea. Over 1200 years of horrid things.

Even if that would be true and we ignore the centuries of peace and security ... why shall other Nabateans suffer for it just because they are from the same race?

 

 

50 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Edelgard would be fine with someone like Tiki, hailed as the Voice of Naga. Why? Because Tiki has no political power or authority. She is someone that people view as a symbol, but not someone that rules over humans. Edelgard's issue is dragons actually ruling over humans.

Ironically, this is something similar to what Naga always said, that dragons and humans cannot fully coexist. This isn't even about being racist. They are two literally different species with different physiologies, lifespan, etc. 

Coexistence is going to be nigh impossible unless there's a way of the two species getting together, and then basically popping out kids, ultimately allowing the two to evolve in a way that allows true harmony. 

Like the Tellius series, had the Branded been accepted, it would have been a symbolic form of union between the two species, and slowly, it'd be an evolution.

While I definetly would find a story about edelgard and other Manakets interesting .... that is all headcanon. We have no idea how she would see Tiki (or Corrin, etc etc)

Edited March 7, 2020 by Nihilem

[Darkmoon6789]

29 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Rhea didn't establish a good sense of faith by doing nothing but hiding the truth from everyone and preaching a religion, while never trying to actually help properly guide humanity. Rhea had over a thousand years to actually prevent humanity from being obsessed with Crests. A thousand years to prevent Fodlan from becoming xenophobic. But she didn't. She was obsessed with reviving Sothis. Understandable, given her trauma, but it made Rhea overall neglect what she should have done. 

Seteth is overall compliant, and Flayn is ignorant, but still believes that Rhea did nothing wrong. 

And yeah, Edelgard clearly shows affection to Byleth, but made it clear that she knows that Byleth is connected to the goddess, and therefore, believed that there was no way Byleth would ever side with her. And yeah, it's very much the case that dragons and humans can crossbreed. It happened with Manaketes in previous games.

What makes it quite sad for me when I play non-crimson flower routes is that Edelgard still shows obvious signs of affection for Byleth. 

She openly states her vain hope that Byleth would have joined her when fight at the battle for Garreg Mach and Ferdinand at Verdant Wind chapter 16 states that Edelgard still has affection for Byleth to the point that Ferdinand lives in their shadow, and is hoping to prove himself to Edelgard through battle. Edelgard says the same thing before she is killed, that she hoped that Byleth could walk with her instead

All of this make me feel really bad for not joining her, it is like the game is teasing me. The problem is that I did join the very first thing I did in the game, now I just need to finish any timeline where I didn't. And I always hate killing this girl even if she does  chose to die of her own volition. It seems to be Canon that Edelgard has a thing for Byleth regardless of route. Cannot think of another crush on Byleth that is this level of canon.

18 minutes ago, Nihilem said:

Does Edelgard actually believe Byleth to be an Manakete? She mentioned that she believes him beeing conected to Rhea in some form (said so before the final battle), but is there any point in CF were she does not see him as a human?

 

Also the idea with the "Country for Manaketes" they actually tried in Zanado. Well it was more like a village, because there are not that many Manaketes. And we all now how that turned out....

Well, Byleth does have green hair at this point, which is usually a strong sign of being one of Rhea's people, also they do seem ageless, which is another thing Edelgard could interpret as a sign of him/her being a manakete.

Anyone know why only some of them can take dragon form however? I originally thought they were dragons, but maybe this understanding is incorrect. Rhea can do it, but it doesn't seem like Flayn and Seteth can

Edited March 7, 2020 by Darkmoon6789

[omegaxis1]

6 minutes ago, Nihilem said:

Does Edelgard actually believe Byleth to be an Manakete? She mentioned that she believes him beeing conected to Rhea in some form (said so before the final battle), but is there any point in CF were she does not see him as a human?

 

Also the idea with the "Country for Manaketes" they actually tried in Zanado. Well it was more like a village, because there are not that many Manaketes. And we all now how that turned out....

Edelgard's line is as such:

Quote

Edelgard: You, like Rhea, share a bloodline with the so-called goddess. Your mother likely had some connection to the goddess, whose power has always been sleeping within you. Five years ago when your power awakened, I was afraid you would choose to join with Rhea.

If she says that Byleth is like Rhea, then odds are that she does very much view Byleth to be the same race as Rhea as well, being one of the Children of the Goddess. 

As for Zanado, it's the question on whether or not things between the Nabateans and Agarthans were truly peaceful. According to Rhea, the Agarthans were consumed by their hubris and thought themselves as gods. The Abyss book indicates the opposite, in that they believed Sothis would destroy humanity. And based on how Agarthans had their own religion and beliefs, it's a question as to whether the Nabateans forced their beliefs onto the Agarthans. 

What might have been a time of peace for Rhea might have been just the Agarthans holding their heads down out of fear. Look at how Rhea does in the story. She thinks everything she does is justified as an act of the goddess. 

Things being peaceful does not mean it is a true peace. 

Ironically, the Abyss and the characters only pushes Edelgard's beliefs all the more.

[Darkmoon6789]

5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Edelgard's line is as such:

If she says that Byleth is like Rhea, then odds are that she does very much view Byleth to be the same race as Rhea as well, being one of the Children of the Goddess. 

As for Zanado, it's the question on whether or not things between the Nabateans and Agarthans were truly peaceful. According to Rhea, the Agarthans were consumed by their hubris and thought themselves as gods. The Abyss book indicates the opposite, in that they believed Sothis would destroy humanity. And based on how Agarthans had their own religion and beliefs, it's a question as to whether the Nabateans forced their beliefs onto the Agarthans. 

What might have been a time of peace for Rhea might have been just the Agarthans holding their heads down out of fear. Look at how Rhea does in the story. She thinks everything she does is justified as an act of the goddess. 

Things being peaceful does not mean it is a true peace. 

Ironically, the Abyss and the characters only pushes Edelgard's beliefs all the more.

Not to mention the chalice of beginnings which makes Rhea look even worse considering what a massive abomination that supposed holy artefact is. 

I do believe a new Zanado might be created in the future as a kind of reservation with the permission of the Empire. It is unlikely to be destroyed, as there are no more javelins of light. That is as long as its inhabitants doesn't try to force their will on the rest of humanity.

[Nihilem]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

As for Zanado, it's the question on whether or not things between the Nabateans and Agarthans were truly peaceful. According to Rhea, the Agarthans were consumed by their hubris and thought themselves as gods. The Abyss book indicates the opposite, in that they believed Sothis would destroy humanity. And based on how Agarthans had their own religion and beliefs, it's a question as to whether the Nabateans forced their beliefs onto the Agarthans. 

What might have been a time of peace for Rhea might have been just the Agarthans holding their heads down out of fear. Look at how Rhea does in the story. She thinks everything she does is justified as an act of the goddess. 

Things being peaceful does not mean it is a true peace. 

Ironically, the Abyss and the characters only pushes Edelgard's beliefs all the more.

You are now referencing the ancient Nabatean - Agarthian war. The massacre at Zanado had a clear agressor that beeing nemesis and the ten elites which were after fancy magic weapons. And I highly doubt that the Nabatean did something to them that justifies themseves to getting slaugthered. At least there is no indication of that what so ever in the game.

For the ancient war that would be a time were Sothis still roamed the earth. And while Sothis did not seem to have any interest in converting someone to pray to her the Agarthians continue to do questionable stuff again and again..... so if I would have to bet who throwed the first punch my money is definetly on the agarthians.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Nihilem said:

You are now referencing the ancient Nabatean - Agarthian war. The massacre at Zanado had a clear agressor that beeing nemesis and the ten elites which were after fancy magic weapons. And I highly doubt that the Nabatean did something to them that justifies themseves to getting slaugthered. At least there is no indication of that what so ever in the game.

For the ancient war that would be a time were Sothis still roamed the earth. And while Sothis did not seem to have any interest in converting someone to pray to her the Agarthians continue to do questionable stuff again and again..... so if I would have to bet who throwed the first punch my money is definetly on the agarthians.

Oh no. It was Nemesis only. The Ten Elites had NO idea what happened and had no involvement. And the massacre only happened because of the Agarthans holding a grudge of revenge toward the Nabateans. And no, revenge is never justified. Just as Rhea's desire for revenge was not justification for launching a 66 year long war.

The Agarthans were definitely the ones that attacked, but not out of hubris, but fear. They feared that Sothis, the False God, would bring extinction upon humanity. 

It begs the question about how the original Sothis was truly like. The Sothis we know is one devoid of memory, but is merely aware of her past to an extent. The original Sothis may not have been as benevolent as we perceive. 

28 minutes ago, Nihilem said:

Even if that would be true and we ignore the centuries of peace and security ... why shall other Nabateans suffer for it just because they are from the same race?

 

28 minutes ago, Nihilem said:

While I definetly would find a story about edelgard and other Manakets interesting .... that is all headcanon. We have no idea how she would see Tiki (or Corrin, etc etc)

Thing is though is that Edelgard DID offer Rhea a chance to surrender and even asked Byleth a lecture question as to what to do if Rhea did surrender, and the answer she prefers is to strip Rhea of all political power. 

Spoiler

 

Edelgard's problem with Rhea was Rhea's involvement with human politics and livelihood. Actually holding political power over humans and telling them how to live their lives. It's one thing to be a spiritual figure to guide people, but it's another thing to actually meddle into the actual societal changes. 

30 minutes ago, Nihilem said:

With the difference that the Slitherers have proven to do horrible things like human experimentation and creating diseases (and leeting them loose an imperial citizen) while Rhea to my knowledge has not hurt a single Faerghus citizen before her rampage. If that person was not a traitor trying to kill her (If you want to count the militia under Lonatos rebellion and the western church as Faerghus citizens, which I dont do because they are well ... rebels...). And definetly no unarmed civillians like the slitherers have done. If you think this actions are comparable then that might be your opinion ... but I cant understand it ...

While I agree that it is not entirely comparable since the Agarthans are more extreme, it's a case of how Rhea has been exposed to an extent. There are indications that her dragon form is no longer a secret. And according to some quotes, the religion is revealed to be more or less a sham. So it's a case of how much Rhea has lied and manipulated even Faerghus, since Rhea had to have been alive since Faerghus was made, and how they were made to follow her religion. Or the Crescent Moon War. And Lonato being killed feels less justified if her religion is a sham. 

It's a case of how much Rhea can actually be trusted when there's been too much deception. 

 

[Jotari]

On 3/7/2020 at 7:12 AM, omegaxis1 said:

 Also, stoop as low as Edelgard? Edelgard doesn't demand the creation of the Crest Beasts. She despises the use of it. She accepts it because it's already done. The Agarthans are not under her direct control. They do their deeds behind her back, proven by many of the stuff in Part 1. She has no knowledge of the things they do. Dimitri is just like that, in that he had no knowledge, but when they happen, he chooses to use them because it's already happened.

Just as CF Dimitri literally allied himself with Rhea. She was a means to an end for him to get revenge on Edelgard. And for the record, there's NO way he was not aware that Rhea was going insane. NPCs in CF remark how Rhea's changed and started to talk and laugh to herself. 

Yeah... exactly. Stooping as low. What are you saying here because the way the comment is formatted makes it sound like you're disagreeing with me even though you're proving my point by pointing out the parallels. If Dimitri had done it knowingly then he would be on the same level as the routes where Edelgard does continue to use them but they intentionally don't do that. They make it something he had no knowledge of for a reason. We see the kind of Dimitri that actually is at that level in Verdant Wind.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah... exactly. Stooping as low. What are you saying here because the way the comment is formatted makes it sound like you're disagreeing with me even though you're proving my point by pointing out the parallels.

Not in the context you said it originally. You said that stooping as low as Edelgard is him being on board and approving of the Crest Beast usage. But he isn't. Same as Edelgard. She isn't on board or approving, but guess what? She can't stop them. Not before the war, and not during the war. Even in CF, she can't stop them from going behind her back and making Crest Beasts in secret. 

So literally a Dimitri that didn't know of the Crest Stones being distributed behind his back and forced to comply with their usage since it was too late to turn back, it's very much similar to how Edelgard is.

[Jotari]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

Not in the context you said it originally. You said that stooping as low as Edelgard is him being on board and approving of the Crest Beast usage. But he isn't. Same as Edelgard. She isn't on board or approving, but guess what? She can't stop them. Not before the war, and not during the war. Even in CF, she can't stop them from going behind her back and making Crest Beasts in secret. 

So literally a Dimitri that didn't know of the Crest Stones being distributed behind his back and forced to comply with their usage since it was too late to turn back, it's very much similar to how Edelgard is.

I'd edited my comment for clarity just before you quoted it.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Jotari

[Darkmoon6789]

14 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah... exactly. Stooping as low. What are you saying here because the way the comment is formatted makes it sound like you're disagreeing with me even though you're proving my point by pointing out the parallels. If Dimitri had done it knowingly then he would be on the same level as the routes where Edelgard does continue to use them but they intentionally don't do that. They make it something he had no knowledge of for a reason. We see the kind of Dimitri that actually is at that level in Verdant Wind.

I understand why how the Agarthans use crests beasts is considered evil as they often transform innocents. However, is voluntarily making the sacrifice of transforming into a crest beast of your own volition necessarily evil? I asked this before and never got an answer. Think about it, the translation seems to be reversible, you also seem to have enough control of your actions as a beast to not attack your own side. I even have seen is capable of holding a conversation. 

How exactly is volunteers using it considered an act of evil? If anything, it's an act of great sacrifice, or at least it would be if the transformation were permanent. 

So either the way Edelgard or Dedue uses them is particularly evil, as they both only use them on volunteers, and both are also willing to make the same sacrifice themselves. Which isn't an act of evil, but solidarity.

Can anyone disprove what I am saying? I did realise lately that the use of crest beasts might seem a lot worse than it actually is.

[Etrurian emperor]

13 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

By this point, I should probably mention that I actually consider all three nations in Fodlan to be rather crappy. The kingdom of Faerghus are obsessed with martial conflict. Their cultural obsession with vengeance as a form of justice led to one of the worst atrocities committed in the entire game, Edelgard's war included. While the Agarthans are responsible for the death of King Lambert, they did not force the kingdom to commit genocide, that's were all their own doing. The Leicester alliance is an unstable mass with constant infighting between the nobles that most likely will devolve into splitting into smaller and smaller nations, under the control of each Lord unless something is done. And the Adrestian Empire is almost completely controlled by its corrupt nobility, who is also in the pocket of a sinister cult. 

As far as the nations are concerned the Alliance actually comes off fairly well. Its relatively peaceful and stable compared to the other country and doesn't seem to have any grand ambitions against the other nations. Even their biggest flaw, the constant infighting is pretty tame. Despite their bickering the houses all join forces to defend their border and when the Alliance is fractured during wartime the worst they do is bicker and paralyze each other rather then resorting to violence. Even Count Gloucester, the worst ruler the Alliance has to offer seems relatively tame as far as evil nobles go. He may feed merchants to his giant wolves but he's not plotting genocide or torturing his family members. 

The Kingdom comes off as the worst. None of the other nations engage in senseless genocide and their crest obsessed in worse then the other nation. Its nobles are all either sniveling cowards or good people who let a toxic knight code force them into wrong priorities. Among the evil nobles Kleiman seems particularly terrible due to being the architect of the genocide and apparently getting away with it completely. 

The Empire is somewhere in the middle. Its got its fair share of monsters but once they become the antagonist they fight for a good cause and they lack the war crime that most antagonistic nations engage in. Their nobles are a mixed bag but I wouldn't say they are dominated by a corrupt nobility. Varley and Aegir are terrible but Duke Gerth seems to be a fine chap and count Bergliez gets depicted as an honorable man, while nothing positive or negative is really said about Linhardt's father. The empire seems unusually laid back on the issue of crest since most of their leading ministries are monopolized by families who do not have crests. 

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I understand why how the Agarthans use crests beasts is considered evil as they often transform innocents. However, is voluntarily making the sacrifice of transforming into a crest beast of your own volition necessarily evil? I asked this before and never got an answer. Think about it, the translation seems to be reversible, you also seem to have enough control of your actions as a beast to not attack your own side. I even have seen is capable of holding a conversation. 

How exactly is volunteers using it considered an act of evil? If anything, it's an act of great sacrifice, or at least it would be if the transformation were permanent. 

So either the way Edelgard or Dedue uses them is particularly evil, as they both only use them on volunteers, and both are also willing to make the same sacrifice themselves. Which isn't an act of evil, but solidarity.

Can anyone disprove what I am saying? I did realise lately that the use of crest beasts might seem a lot worse than it actually is.

Dimitri says that they need to win so the soldiers who transformed into crest basts won't have lost their lives in vain. So he certainly believes it's an irreversible process. And in terms of sanity crests beasts will and do attack their own units when using aoe attacks. As far as we see the process being reversible the only evidence is that some boss units resume a human form upon being defeated (and dying) to deliver a final line of dialogue (or an fmv in Edelgard's case). And then there's Marianne's ancestor whose been running around as a crest beast for a mellenia now without ever reverting to a human form and unable to fully control his actions. Maybe there's something I'm overlooking but the game certainly seems to treat it as an immoral act. If it was a basic change for a battle that's reversible afterwards with no risk then everyone would be doing it. It would have been the kingdom's first response instead of a last ditch effort (though it's possible the Agarthan method is a more refined one than just having someone hold a crest stone. Then again we never see any actual Agarthans transform so they're not volunteering for it).

Edited March 8, 2020 by Jotari

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

I don't think you can say it's reversible. The game makes it pretty clear that the only way to reverse it is through death and even in Hegemon Edelgard's case she's warned that they may not be able to bring her back to herself. In fact Hegemon Edelgard is the only case of someone coming out of a transformation like that without death immediately following and she was very obviously badly hurt when she did.

[omegaxis1]

29 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah... exactly. Stooping as low. What are you saying here because the way the comment is formatted makes it sound like you're disagreeing with me even though you're proving my point by pointing out the parallels. If Dimitri had done it knowingly then he would be on the same level as the routes where Edelgard does continue to use them but they intentionally don't do that. They make it something he had no knowledge of for a reason. We see the kind of Dimitri that actually is at that level in Verdant Wind.

Again, it's still acting like Edelgard. Saying that the sacrifice they made cannot be made in vain. Again, Edelgad doesn't knowingly approve or know the experiments taking place. They are done by the Agarthans in who knows where, and they don't tell Edelgard anything of what they do. And by the time they have already done it, what can Edelgard do? Just deal with it and use them, so that their sacrifice was not in vain, very much what Dimitri says here.

And saying that he'd stop it had he known beforehand also ignores how Edelgard also said the same thing about Remire Village as the Flame Emperor, that she'd have tried to stop it had she known beforehand.

So again, the parallels are there.

9 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

As far as the nations are concerned the Alliance actually comes off fairly well. Its relatively peaceful and stable compared to the other country and doesn't seem to have any grand ambitions against the other nations. Even their biggest flaw, the constant infighting is pretty tame. Despite their bickering the houses all join forces to defend their border and when the Alliance is fractured during wartime the worst they do is bicker and paralyze each other rather then resorting to violence. Even Count Gloucester, the worst ruler the Alliance has to offer seems relatively tame as far as evil nobles go. He may feed merchants to his giant wolves but he's not plotting genocide or torturing his family members. 

It is the weakest nation of the three, and has a weak form of unity. Hell, there's very little form of loyalty or pride over said nation, unlike the Empire or Kingdom.

Might be why the characters are rather easy recruits.

[Etrurian emperor]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

It is the weakest nation of the three, and has a weak form of unity. Hell, there's very little form of loyalty or pride over said nation, unlike the Empire or Kingdom.

Might be why the characters are rather easy recruits.

Its definitely the weakest nation on the continent but most of the more morally orientated countries are. Though I would say that both the unity and loyalty within the alliance does seem to be higher then in the Kingdom. In most route the Kingdom pretty much collapses because its lords have neither unity nor loyalty while the Alliance remains unified. Even the lords that pick the side of the empire merely force neutrality and at worst allow Edelgard to cross their borders. Gloucester and Cordelia don't betray their nation as the kingdom lords do. 

There's Acheron of course but he's a unique case and too pitiful to really matter. 

[Darkmoon6789]

22 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Dimitri says that they need to win so the soldiers who transformed into crest basts won't have lost their lives in vain. So he certainly believes it's an irreversible process. And in terms of sanity crests beasts will and do attack their own units when using aoe attacks. As far as we see the process being reversible the only evidence is that some boss units resume a human form upon being defeated (and dying) to deliver a final line of dialogue (or an fmv in Edelgard's case). And then there's Marianne's ancestor whose been running around as a crest beast for a mellenia now without ever reverting to a human form and unable to fully control his actions. Maybe there's something I'm overlooking but the game certainly seems to treat it as an immoral act. If it was a basic change for a battle that's reversible afterwards with no risk then everyone would be doing it. It would have been the kingdom's first response instead of a last ditch effort (though it's possible the Agarthan method is a more refined one than just having someone hold a crest stone. Then again we never see any actual Agarthans transform so they're not volunteering for it).

 

21 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

I don't think you can say it's reversible. The game makes it pretty clear that the only way to reverse it is through death and even in Hegemon Edelgard's case she's warned that they may not be able to bring her back to herself. In fact Hegemon Edelgard is the only case of someone coming out of a transformation like that without death immediately following and she was very obviously badly hurt when she did.

Thanks for the clarification. I guess it was more or less what was my first impression of what's going on as I did initially assume that transformations were permanent. Still, it is definitely a mitigating factor that both Edelgard and Dedue only did so to people who volunteered to make that sacrifice, and they did so themselves to another the sacrifice of the people who made that sacrifice for them. It is nowhere near as bad as forcefully transforming innocent people. In fact, being willing to make the same sacrifice yourself could be considered noble. Which yet again, is begging the question, is this really stooping all that low? It would be worse to make use of crests beasts without the willingness to go through the transformation yourself.  They are definitely parallels, but there is such an honour to the action of going through the process yourself, so it is not really stooping to the lowest point

It only really applies to non-crimson flower Edelgard anyway as her crimson flower counterpart reject the use of crest beasts, so the only people who still uses the are the Agarthans. Edelgard is simply a lot more desperate without Byleth. 

24 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

As far as the nations are concerned the Alliance actually comes off fairly well. Its relatively peaceful and stable compared to the other country and doesn't seem to have any grand ambitions against the other nations. Even their biggest flaw, the constant infighting is pretty tame. Despite their bickering the houses all join forces to defend their border and when the Alliance is fractured during wartime the worst they do is bicker and paralyze each other rather then resorting to violence. Even Count Gloucester, the worst ruler the Alliance has to offer seems relatively tame as far as evil nobles go. He may feed merchants to his giant wolves but he's not plotting genocide or torturing his family members. 

The Kingdom comes off as the worst. None of the other nations engage in senseless genocide and their crest obsessed in worse then the other nation. Its nobles are all either sniveling cowards or good people who let a toxic knight code force them into wrong priorities. Among the evil nobles Kleiman seems particularly terrible due to being the architect of the genocide and apparently getting away with it completely. 

The Empire is somewhere in the middle. Its got its fair share of monsters but once they become the antagonist they fight for a good cause and they lack the war crime that most antagonistic nations engage in. Their nobles are a mixed bag but I wouldn't say they are dominated by a corrupt nobility. Varley and Aegir are terrible but Duke Gerth seems to be a fine chap and count Bergliez gets depicted as an honorable man, while nothing positive or negative is really said about Linhardt's father. The empire seems unusually laid back on the issue of crest since most of their leading ministries are monopolized by families who do not have crests. 

While I am uncertain when it comes to every single global involved in the insurrection of the seven, I guess what I am saying is that this government is corrupt because it is ultimately controlled by Arundel. Ironically, the Empire, as you say actually become a lot better once Edelgard takes power, once they get rid of the Agarthans. They are, in my opinion, actually the best society in Fodlan. Given Edelgard's reforms.

As for the alliance I just have this feeling that it will eventually split into smaller and smaller nations ruled over by nobles constantly at each other's throat, because it seemed to have rather poor unity. Also, I would describe Acheron as the worst noble in the alliance. If him attacking house Gloucester is a standard event, just think about how many lives are lost in these constant battles. Must be quite a lot of people over a long period of time.

Edit. Acheron might be pitiful, but he does command a lot of men. Still, the alliance is one of the better nations in Fodlan. 

Still, considering how Edelgard speaks about respecting cultural differences when it comes to the Almyrans, I don't think it is impossible to imagine that she will respect some cultural differences between the regions of the new Empire. As long as they answer to the emperor and don't start unnecessary wars or commits genocide for stupid reasons, I do think that a lot of customs will stay the same. At the very least, the harmless customs

Edited March 8, 2020 by Darkmoon6789

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

16 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Thanks for the clarification. I guess it was more or less what was my first impression of what's going on as I did initially assume that transformations were permanent. Still, it is definitely a mitigating factor that both Edelgard and Dedue only did so to people who volunteered to make that sacrifice, and they did so themselves to another the sacrifice of the people who made that sacrifice for them. It is nowhere near as bad as forcefully transforming innocent people. In fact, being willing to make the same sacrifice yourself could be considered noble. Which yet again, is begging the question, is this really stooping all that low? It would be worse to make use of crests beasts without the willingness to go through the transformation yourself.  They are definitely parallels, but there is such an honour to the action of going through the process yourself, so it is not really stooping to the lowest point

It only really applies to non-crimson flower Edelgard anyway as her crimson flower counterpart reject the use of crest beasts, so the only people who still uses the are the Agarthans. Edelgard is simply a lot more desperate without Byleth.

Not a problem, but genuine question. Where are you getting that Edelgard only uses volunteers to make the demonic beasts? I can see it with Dedue as the soldiers all transform themselves but, to my knowledge, it's never stated that Edelgard uses volunteers for the process nor do we see people doing so of their own accord barring Edelgard herself.

Also, as much as you're entitled to your opinion, I think being willing to make the same stupid decisions as others doesn't make it any less stupid. It just shows solidarity, it doesn't lessen the impact of what you did.

[Jotari]

22 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Again, it's still acting like Edelgard. Saying that the sacrifice they made cannot be made in vain. Again, Edelgad doesn't knowingly approve or know the experiments taking place. They are done by the Agarthans in who knows where, and they don't tell Edelgard anything of what they do. And by the time they have already done it, what can Edelgard do? Just deal with it and use them, so that their sacrifice was not in vain, very much what Dimitri says here.

And saying that he'd stop it had he known beforehand also ignores how Edelgard also said the same thing about Remire Village as the Flame Emperor, that she'd have tried to stop it had she known beforehand.

So again, the parallels are there.

It is the weakest nation of the three, and has a weak form of unity. Hell, there's very little form of loyalty or pride over said nation, unlike the Empire or Kingdom.

Might be why the characters are rather easy recruits.

You've just repeated yourself and not actually struck to the heart of what I'm saying. They easily could have made Dimitri much worse in Crimson Flower, make him exactly like he is in all the other routes, but they deliberately decided not to. He's still no angel, but he is depicted much better than Pirate!Dimitri. That's my point. He didnt go all Hegemon on Edelgard.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

You've just repeated yourself and not actually struck to the heart of what I'm saying. They easily could have made Dimitri much worse in Crimson Flower, make him exactly like he is in all the other routes, but they deliberately decided not to. He's still no angel, but he is depicted much better than Pirate!Dimitri. That's my point. He didnt go all Hegemon on Edelgard.

No. What's worse is that CF DImitri does not acknowledge himself to be at fault and blames Edelgard for everything. Him acting all self-righteous in CF when he talks to Edelgard is ignoring that he joined this war primarily for revenge, being overall a hypocrite, overlooking his own faults. Pirate Dimitri at least acknowledges himself as a monster and is still straightforward.

And as I pointed out, CF Dimitri actually LIES AND DECEIVES his own allies. Even pirate Dimitri didn't do that.

[Darkmoon6789]

2 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Not a problem, but genuine question. Where are you getting that Edelgard only uses volunteers to make the demonic beasts? I can see it with Dedue as the soldiers all transform themselves but, to my knowledge, it's never stated that Edelgard uses volunteers for the process nor do we see people doing so of their own accord barring Edelgard herself.

Also, as much as you're entitled to your opinion, I think being willing to make the same stupid decisions as others doesn't make it any less stupid. It just shows solidarity, it doesn't lessen the impact of what you did.

I kind of heard it from another person by some point, and I trust in ramming that as it made sense with Edelgard's character. She does have a lot of people fanatically loyal to her who believe in the cause so strongly, they would literally do anything to help. It is either that or these demonic beasts were supplied by the Agarthans without her having a direct hand in their transformation. In any case, it is not in her character to force people to go through with the transformation personally. She doesn't force anyone along the Black Eagles to fight for her and does allow any who wants to leave after the holy tomb mission in Crimson Flower. She doesn't force people to fight for our, she has plenty of volunteers who are sick of the current system and are willing to put their lives on the line for change.

In the case of Dedue. However, I do know this for certain, as this is downright stated.

I also never said that this wasn't a stupid sacrifice, even if Edelgard ended up winning in Azure Moon, she would be pretty much done as a ruler. If she couldn't transform back and died shortly afterwards. Wouldn't be any time to introduce any reforms. 

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

1 minute ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I kind of heard it from another person by some point, and I trust in ramming that as it made sense with Edelgard's character. She does have a lot of people fanatically loyal to her who believe in the cause so strongly, they would literally do anything to help. It is either that or these demonic beasts were supplied by the Agarthans without her having a direct hand in their transformation. In any case, it is not in her character to force people to go through with the transformation personally. She doesn't force anyone along the Black Eagles to fight for her and does allow any who wants to leave after the holy tomb mission in Crimson Flower. She doesn't force people to fight for our, she has plenty of volunteers who are sick of the current system and are willing to put their lives on the line for change.

In the case of Dedue. However, I do know this for certain, as this is downright stated.

I also never said that this wasn't a stupid sacrifice, even if Edelgard ended up winning in Azure Moon, she would be pretty much done as a ruler. If she couldn't transform back and died shortly afterwards. Wouldn't be any time to introduce any reforms. 

Ahh I see. In that case, I feel it prudent to bring up that you probably shouldn't inject ideas that aren't steadfastly stated by the game as objective facts. It can lead to confusion among those who are just reading through things. I can see where you're coming from with that idea though, just maybe lead with that it's the way you interpret events next time.

As for Edelgard in Azure Moon, honestly I don't know if I really get her decision to do that. Sure it was a last minute, desperate attempt to stop Dimitri, but even if she had killed Dimitri in that throne room, Adrestia was as good as done. Faerghus by that point had the Alliance and the Church marching with it. I get that it's her whole ideal to die fighting for beliefs but it just seems to me like there could've been some other way.

[Jotari]

20 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

No. What's worse is that CF DImitri does not acknowledge himself to be at fault and blames Edelgard for everything. Him acting all self-righteous in CF when he talks to Edelgard is ignoring that he joined this war primarily for revenge, being overall a hypocrite, overlooking his own faults. Pirate Dimitri at least acknowledges himself as a monster and is still straightforward.

And as I pointed out, CF Dimitri actually LIES AND DECEIVES his own allies. Even pirate Dimitri didn't do that.

For revenge "and" to defend his kingdom. Even if you firmly state that it is primarily for revenge the fact that he is also defending his country is not negligible factor and this entire conversation were having is about your insistence that it is. And that is something Pirate!Dimitri doesn't have. Having a kingdom to defend makes Dimitri better (even if he's using Rhea as bait to attain victory). If Dimitri was entirely fighting for himself and not also for Fargheis then his victory at any cost approach would have involved premeditated sacrifice of his soldiers as demonic beasts which he pointedly doesn't do.

(And for what it's worth in all routes Edelgard tries to grab the Crest Stones so she obviously had some involvement in the Crest Beast process. The fact that she appearantly is able to stop their use in Crimson Flower further shows that).

28 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Not a problem, but genuine question. Where are you getting that Edelgard only uses volunteers to make the demonic beasts? I can see it with Dedue as the soldiers all transform themselves but, to my knowledge, it's never stated that Edelgard uses volunteers for the process nor do we see people doing so of their own accord barring Edelgard herself.

Also, as much as you're entitled to your opinion, I think being willing to make the same stupid decisions as others doesn't make it any less stupid. It just shows solidarity, it doesn't lessen the impact of what you did.

I'm not even sure Edelgard stopped using Demonic beasts because of Byleth's influence in Crimson Flower. I certainly don't remember any scene of Byleth guilting her about it or her confronting Arundel on the matter. It could just as easily be a case that she can't because she doesn't have access to Rhea's blood in Crimson Flower (and in the pre timeskip battle they're with the main forces). Perhaps there's some flavor text in the last chapter of part 1 or I'm somehow forgetting a vital scene entirely, but I can't find any script online for To War Crimson Flower version (that's assuming Rhea's blood is necessary which it might not be as that could be something invented in my head to explain why Flayn was kidnapped).

In any case if it is part of the narrative it should have been expressed more.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Jotari