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omegaxis1

The True Tragedy of Three Houses

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3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

For revenge "and" to defend his kingdom. Even if you firmly state that it is primarily for revenge the fact that he is also defending his country is not negligible factor and this entire conversation were having is about your insistence that it is. And that is something Pirate!Dimitri doesn't have. Having a kingdom to defend makes Dimitri better (even if he's using Rhea as bait to attain victory). If Dimitri was entirely fighting for himself and not also for Fargheis then his victory at any cost approach would have involved premeditated sacrifice of his soldiers as demonic beasts which he pointedly doesn't do.

Did he state that he's in this for defending his Kingdom from invasion? He's more than often stated and others even enhanced the point that he's in this for revenge. Dimitri's entire issue is that he's obsessed with revenge. From Part 1 and even in Part 2 until he is redeemed. Him not being aware is just more parallel to Edelgard, because she's not aware of what the Agarthans do behind her back, but when it's unveiled, she has to accept its use. Same thing here where Dedue went behind Dimitri's back, and when it happened, he begrudgingly accepted it, the same belief as Edelgard once again. 

Only Dimitri's primary motivation is stil revenge. 

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9 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Ahh I see. In that case, I feel it prudent to bring up that you probably shouldn't inject ideas that aren't steadfastly stated by the game as objective facts. It can lead to confusion among those who are just reading through things. I can see where you're coming from with that idea though, just maybe lead with that it's the way you interpret events next time.

As for Edelgard in Azure Moon, honestly I don't know if I really get her decision to do that. Sure it was a last minute, desperate attempt to stop Dimitri, but even if she had killed Dimitri in that throne room, Adrestia was as good as done. Faerghus by that point had the Alliance and the Church marching with it. I get that it's her whole ideal to die fighting for beliefs but it just seems to me like there could've been some other way.

I will, but in some cases, there simply isn't any information in the game to lead to a clear conclusion, in which case we must make an educated guess based on the information we do have.

I think Edelgard is just incredibly stubborn when it comes to her refusal to surrender, she kind of have a thing with her beliefs as she states before the battle with Lonato that she considers dying for it cause you believe in to be a noble endeavour and that your sacrifice shouldn't be pitied, but admired. This is a guess, but maybe she is dead set at sacrificing anything she possibly could for her cause because she believes that in order to die with honour. She must give it all she has or else she would have abandoned her own ideals.

The thing with Edelgard, which some people doesn't seem to understand is that she isn't without honour, she just views it a lot differently from for example Dimitri. Edelgard is pretty much all about personal sacrifice and honouring those who are willing to give everything for a higher purpose. Edelgard is a person who puts her own needs behind what she considers to be her duty to the point that she wouldn't even allow herself to take a day off and bought herself on sweets regardless of how much she wanted to do that. Her personal desire was always secondary to her than fulfilling her role in changing the world. 

I think this something to do with Edelgard feeling like she had a duty towards the people who died so that she might live during those awful experiments, she stated as much in her early supports with Byleth. The way she interpreted that a duty was that she had to use this opportunity to create a world where something like what happened to her siblings, herself and the rest of the incidents sacrificed in those experiments could never happen again. 

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12 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Did he state that he's in this for defending his Kingdom from invasion? He's more than often stated and others even enhanced the point that he's in this for revenge. Dimitri's entire issue is that he's obsessed with revenge. From Part 1 and even in Part 2 until he is redeemed. Him not being aware is just more parallel to Edelgard, because she's not aware of what the Agarthans do behind her back, but when it's unveiled, she has to accept its use. Same thing here where Dedue went behind Dimitri's back, and when it happened, he begrudgingly accepted it, the same belief as Edelgard once again. 

Only Dimitri's primary motivation is stil revenge. 

And to defend his kingdom.

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6 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Also, I would describe Acheron as the worst noble in the alliance. If him attacking house Gloucester is a standard event, just think about how many lives are lost in these constant battles. Must be quite a lot of people over a long period of time.

Edit. Acheron might be pitiful, but he does command a lot of men. Still, the alliance is one of the better nations in Fodlan. 

Acheron is certainly evil but he's more of a pest rather than someone actually dangerous. All his attempts to get up to some devilry are foiled really easily. I'm not sure he has a lot of man since its a point that he's the smallest lord in the Alliance. 

He might also be the only one that sends troops against his neighbors with even Gloucester never doing that. The rests just bicker a lot. 

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I continue to read this thread with great interest.

It seems to me, as someone who has played through all routes twice now (though not the DLC/Abyss), that this game is at least partly about what happens when people decide that the thing that drives them - their goal - must be achieved at all costs. 

Rhea's family was massacred and turned into weapons/crests. She fought back by getting humans on her side; she did this by giving them weapons and crests of their own. The destructive power of these weapons and crests is enormous, and they're all designed for war. Linhardt points out that a peaceful world wouldn't have much need for crest bearers. 

Remember, Rhea didn't initiate the crest system or the use of relic weapons. She was forced into it by a kind of arms race. Once the crest bearers and relic weapons were out in the world, it's hard to see what Rhea could have done about them. Kill all the Crest bearers and their lineage? For obvious reasons, she's not a fan of genocide. So she develops a mythology and a religion which serves two purposes:

1. keeps her family safe

2. creates a social structure in which the crest bearers have power and a positive purpose.

It's no different from the Crusades and the age of chivalry: let's try to harness all the military might, and all that very human blood-lust and power-hunger, and channel it in a more constructive direction. Rhea has more than her fair share of failings, but she can hardly be held to blame for human nature.  By making the crest-bearers a elite social class with shared values and a sense of mutual interests, they're less likely to be constantly turning on each in a struggle for power and dragging the whole world into one war after another. Fill the heads of their children with ideals of nobility: chivalry, service, self-sacrifice, duty. Thus, the terrible powers of the crest-holders are, at least to some extent, used to create a stable society in which art, literature and love can flourish.  The player is encouraged to mock Ferdinand and Lorenz, but the truth is, these two chracters are the best kind of crest-holder. Even though they're vain about their nobility, they would never use their crest powers for selfish purposes. 

Of course, being human, many crest-bearers fall far short of the ideal. And of course, since humans are obsessed with status, crests themselves become highly desireable status symbols and some people will stop at nothing to get one. 

Hanneman's solution is the only one that really stands a chance of working. Give everybody a Crest! If everybody has a crest, crests won't mean anything special any more. if everybody has crest-bestowed powers, those powers will represent the level of the average human being. As long as a few people have crests and most people do not, and as long as those crests bestow very real advantages in the ongoing human struggle for power and dominance, Edelgard's reforms are doomed to failure. 

So basically, we have three solutions to the problem crests pose for their society:

1. Give everybody a crest (Hanneman)

2. Eliminate all crests and restore humanity to its factory settings. (genocide of all crest-bearing lineages)

3. If you can't do No. 1 and don't want to resort to No. 2, then structure your society in a way that gives crest-holders a positive purpose and rewards them for using their powers constructively

 

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Uh, the crest system certainly has not stopped war or strife. Making the crests gifts of the goddess has granted the bearers a perceived divine mandate to rule, and that has never, ever made less people prone to corruption. The nobility certainly aren't paragons of chivalry, service, self-sacrifice, duty, and if instilling these virtues was Rhea's mission, it seems she's failed miserably. Ferdie and Lorenz seem like exceptions to the rule, not the norm.

Pretty sure she did it to maintain some co-existence and control over how Fodlan progresses. It's comparatively stable, but the land certainly isn't flourishing: she explicitly does not want to let it flourish beyond the point where human society is not reliant on the Church, hence the isolationism and curtailing research (this includes Hanneman's no doubt). She is concerned with maintaining order above all else.

It's safer and more comfortable than Edelgard's authoritarianism, but it's still just that.

You could just, you know, do what Crimson Flower does and just not entertain the idea that crest bearers are inherently superior to everyone and let Fodlan progress to the point technologically where they're not such a big deal any more lol

And yes, that means that humanity has the potential to become the Agarthans again. That possibility is always going to be there if Fodlan wishes to progress.

Edited by Crysta

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"You could just, you know, do what Crimson Flower does and just not entertain the idea that crest bearers are inherently superior to everyone and let Fodlan progress to the point technologically where they're not such a big deal any more lol"

But human beings will never do that. Crest holders will simply have technology + a crest. They will invest in technological development that further advantages their crest. They will always have more power than other people.

I never said Rhea's course of action resulted in a perfect society lol! Apart from anything else, that's beyond the capability of human beings. Of course a world dominated by the Church is torn by war and strife and filled with self-seeking, unprincipled individuals, because that's how it always is, no matter who's in charge. Edelgard's world will be the same. I'm saying Rhea had pretty limited options, and she chose the least worst. 

Fodlan isn't flourishing but it also isn't not-flourishing; it's just existing in what seems to be a pretty standard level for human history, with plenty of misery and strife and suffering side by side with love and adventure, art and literature, delicious food, kindness and charity. 

To imagine that Edelgard's world or Dimitri's world or Claude's world is going to be any better is just wishful thinking. It isn't Rhea who promotes racist attitudes, she welcomes and is kind to people from all over the world. Most of the problems in this world are not caused by Rhea, they are caused by human nature. 

The problem is the existence of crests. Sure, the real problem is people's attitude to crests, but good luck changing that as long as crests are both rare and obviously worth something. Human nature is immutable, and Rhea isn't responsible for that. 

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6 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

As far as the nations are concerned the Alliance actually comes off fairly well. Its relatively peaceful and stable compared to the other country and doesn't seem to have any grand ambitions against the other nations. Even their biggest flaw, the constant infighting is pretty tame. Despite their bickering the houses all join forces to defend their border and when the Alliance is fractured during wartime the worst they do is bicker and paralyze each other rather then resorting to violence. Even Count Gloucester, the worst ruler the Alliance has to offer seems relatively tame as far as evil nobles go. He may feed merchants to his giant wolves but he's not plotting genocide or torturing his family members. 

 

Euh, with all due respect, stable nothing. Acheron is but the smallest part of the problem, despite the fact the text implies he does this shit with depressing regularity with no lasting consequences. The reason why Gloucester couldn't stop him was because his troops were likely too busy (or dead, if you did that paralogue I guess) butchering and ransacking merchant caravans for the cardinal sin of following ducking trade routes( Derdriu is a trade port, moron, it is a big part of why the trade route can even exist, moron!). And Rahpael's parents' fate shows he has been playing this sort of games for years. Not a good sign, especially since it implies he can do it for worst when he is already doing it for such petty reasons. And it looks like he was trying pretty hard to get dirt on Claude to get him ousted so he could seize power. Politics, but blatant lack of respect for central authority, even nominal one? Not Good.

And the Alliance structure? Duck, I am heavily reminded of the Polish Commonwealth, or Renaissance Italia. Neither of them an advantageous comparaison. Ordelia's clusterfuck with Hrym and the Empire hints at a lack of unity, where everyone does as they desire, and leave other to burn. Not best sign either. Hilda and Cyril's paralogue tell me Holst couldn't trust his peers in the Alliance for reinforcements, so he went to his sister/the Church for it. Again, not the sign of a healthy intern policy if the Alliance can't be bothered supporting his defense of Almyra in a satisfactory way.

And Almighty Gygax Alois and Shamir's paralogue. Deidriu, Riegan's capital, nominal capital of the Alliance. Their seat of power, big moneymaker, likely biggest source of recruits by virtue of being their biggest town... And they can't defend it against ducking pirates, or get/beg/pressure peers within the Alliance to get help. And let me tell you, both as someone studying history and... a 4X player (CKII, EU...), when a state can't defend its own capital against freaking bandits,  said state is generally barely half a step removed from becoming an open bar for its neighbors. There were reasons for Italy becoming one of the Renaissance's big battlefields, and for Poland going from Eastern Europe's top dog to a giant cake to be shared between Austria, Prussia and Russia.

And the Shadow Library's report it took a Claude-shaped miracle to not get the country imploding in civil war. Gonna guess the Mole Men wwanted to start their war here. Bloody quagmire of potentially shifting alliances calling for foreign support is a casus belli factory.

 

 

6 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The Kingdom comes off as the worst. None of the other nations engage in senseless genocide and their crest obsessed in worse then the other nation. Its nobles are all either sniveling cowards or good people who let a toxic knight code force them into wrong priorities. Among the evil nobles Kleiman seems particularly terrible due to being the architect of the genocide and apparently getting away with it completely. 

 

Heck, it's even worst. The more or less good people with toxic code you mentioned (less=Gautier, more=Fraldarius)? They can't even jugulate banditry within their own territories, even with the lords dirtying their hands (Felix and Sylvain's paralogues). And that's suppose to be the less worst places of the Kingdom. Food for thoughts, and not nice ones.

Worst, for all the boasting about chivalry, royal authority means nothing to these guys. Be it with ignoring Dimitri during Duscur, or Dedue's paralogue. And there is the fact that barring a Seiros Mode!Rhea and Knights of Seiros-seized miracle, Cornelia and the Mole Men can just kill the regent, accuse Dimitri, have him executed (even if that faield), seize half of the country to sell out, and no one are able to stop them until the deed is done. Heck, Cornelia can pay herself the luxury of telling the whole plot to a known enemy and get away with it. Talk about a country gone to the dogs.

 

6 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The Empire is somewhere in the middle. Its got its fair share of monsters but once they become the antagonist they fight for a good cause and they lack the war crime that most antagonistic nations engage in. Their nobles are a mixed bag but I wouldn't say they are dominated by a corrupt nobility. Varley and Aegir are terrible but Duke Gerth seems to be a fine chap and count Bergliez gets depicted as an honorable man, while nothing positive or negative is really said about Linhardt's father. The empire seems unusually laid back on the issue of crest since most of their leading ministries are monopolized by families who do not have crests. 

 

So 'laid back' about it they okayed Edelgard and her siblings being carved up like raw burger in the name of having an emperor with a major Crest, which is also why Ionius was having so many children, or Hanneman's sister ended on rape duty for Crest babies until her death. And I think I remember Dorothea may be a noble's bastard child, and that they checked her for Crest before throwing her away in the streets. And I didn't even get to the mess around Mercedes and Jeritza yet. And Caspar being Crestless doesn't mean his father/sibling don't have one (unless you have supports telling me they are indeed Crestless). And with Aegir, Varley, Hevring, at least, it's still a sizeable portion of the elites with Crests. And who knows what family is sporting Macuil's Crest. Yup, 'laid back about the issue of Crests'.

They also still launched that coup, and no power centrallization isn't an evil, but a recurring struggle of medieval societies (and others) between the central power and the elites (example of place where both sides of the equation could go corrupt: Chinese Empires, where it was a toss up, and often a team-work, between regional governors and corrupt court officials to ruin the empires). Their support of Edelgard also remains tied to a war of conquest (because they certainly sold Aegir out for her beautiful eyes or something like that), so they are quite... ambitious too.

And Sothis/Naga/Gygax only knows what the Mole Men are doing inside Adrestia (Tharundel and the paralogue he creates for Lysitheia and Ferdinand doesn't inspire me good feels. Constance and Yuri's not much either). Oh, and they all let House Nuvelle be casually slaughtered with their subjects by Brigid and Dagda for the crime of being Ionius loyalists.

 

 

Heck, all of it is why I think the war was inevitable, and in some way needed. Fodlan had gone to dogs badly, the 'peace' was a big nasty bloody joke with the intern issues plaguing each country, Rhea's whole edifice was one windy day away from total collapse, and the rot so firmly installed that peaceful reformers could be flushed out without problems by corrupt elites. At this point, something else was direly needed to clean up the house.

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"Worst, for all the boasting about chivalry, royal authority means nothing to these guys. Be it with ignoring Dimitri during Duscur, or Dedue's paralogue. And there is the fact that barring a Seiros Mode!Rhea and Knights of Seiros-seized miracle, Cornelia and the Mole Men can just kill the regent, accuse Dimitri, have him executed (even if that faield), seize half of the country to sell out, and no one are able to stop them until the deed is done. Heck, Cornelia can pay herself the luxury of telling the whole plot to a known enemy and get away with it. Talk about a country gone to the dogs."

Dimitri isn't king yet; he has no authority. After Lambert's death the role of head of state falls to his brother Rufus, a wastrel who spends all his time chasing women, thus leaving a power vacumn for the Mole Men to fill with Cornelia. Presumably Rufus was their preferred candidate for this reason! Speaking as a history teacher, you're spot on in your analysis: the first sign of weakening from the central power leads to every petty power-holder trying to expand at the expense of his neighbours. That said, the royalty of Faerghus does command a degree of loyalty from the older generation that we don't see in Adrestia or Leicester. Rodrigue and Gilbert are both devoted to their king; Rodrigue puts the needs of the king above those of his own family, and Gilbert does the same, although he sometimes questions his choices. What we can't know, though, is whether these two are meant to be representatives of the older generation of Faerghus nobility, or whether they're just two individuals bucking the trend. 

No, I tell a lie. Judith, the Hero of House Daphnel, is extremely loyal to Claude in his role as leader of the Leicester alliance. There seems to be a subtle difference, in that Judith is accepting Claude's lead in the task of fighting for their continued freedom and independence, whereas Rodrigue and Gilbert are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for Dimitri personally, because he is The King. But I might be reading too much into it. 

Like Sylvain says, war is always inevitable. There's always another war. 

Edited by Licoriceallsorts

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14 minutes ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

But human beings will never do that. Crest holders will simply have technology + a crest. They will invest in technological development that further advantages their crest. They will always have more power than other people.

Technology that gives the crestless the same abilities of the crest bearers would be useless in the hands of those who already have said abilities. The crest bearers will have more raw power (how does that even translate though?), but the gap will be considerably smaller and less meaningful. It's certainly better than the system in place now, anyway.

16 minutes ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

I never said Rhea's course of action resulted in a perfect society lol! Apart from anything else, that's beyond the capability of human beings. Of course a world dominated by the Church is torn by war and strife and filled with self-seeking, unprincipled individuals, because that's how it always is, no matter who's in charge. Edelgard's world will be the same. I'm saying Rhea had pretty limited options, and she chose the least worst. 

I doubt she thought it was going to be anything close to perfect. But I will say she played a part in making it worse than it may have been if crests weren't given their holy significance. I don't think the dragon religion was an absolute necessity. She did not have to appoint herself humanity's steward.

18 minutes ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

Fodlan isn't flourishing but it also isn't not-flourishing; it's just existing in what seems to be a pretty standard level for human history, with plenty of misery and strife and suffering side by side with love and adventure, art and literature, delicious food, kindness and charity. 

It's stagnant at best, falling apart at the seams at worst. There's bright spots but as a whole? Uh...

20 minutes ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

To imagine that Edelgard's world or Dimitri's world or Claude's world is going to be any better is just wishful thinking.

According to every ending, that's exactly what happens.

20 minutes ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

It isn't Rhea who promotes racist attitudes, she welcomes and is kind to people from all over the world. Most of the problems in this world are not caused by Rhea, they are caused by human nature. 

Rhea has her own agenda: control, order, and resurrecting mommy to take over her job. She is not responsible for humanity's follies, but she has a hand in exacerbating them. Or just looking away.

23 minutes ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

The problem is the existence of crests. Sure, the real problem is people's attitude to crests, but good luck changing that as long as crests are both rare and obviously worth something. Human nature is immutable, and Rhea isn't responsible for that. 

The crests are tools. Nothing more, nothing less.

Rhea is in large part the reason why the people of Fodlan regard the crests the way they do. You can try to justify that, I guess, but it's a key part of the Church of Seiros.

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No technology has been proposed which would equalise the powers of the crest-bearers and the crestless. The crest-bearers will always have that technology plus their crest powers, and since they are the elite, they will foster technological developments that enhance their crest abilities. 

If Rhea hadn't given the crests their holy significance and fostered a mind-set of crest-nobility (best exemplified by Ferdinand and Lorenz) what exactly do you think would have happened in this world, where a small number of people possess powers that allow them to easily dominate the masses by force? 

I just disagree that it's stagnant or falling apart at the seams. I see a world that is pretty typical of most human societies.

"According to every ending, that's exactly what happens." Well, of course that's the aspect of this game that is complete fantasy!

I disagree that Rhea has made humanity's impulses worse. I think she tried to make the best of a bad job, according to her lights, with very mixed results. Of course she had her own agenda, but that has never included causing unnecessary human suffering. People might just disagree with her, as they do with Edelgard, as to what kind of suffering counts as necessary.

The crests are not just tools. They are tremendous status symbols, socially elevating, bestowers of power and rank. I would go so far as to say that very few people actually want crests because they want to have super-strength or extra magic ability. They want crests for the status they confer. 

 

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Just now, Licoriceallsorts said:

No technology has been proposed which would equalise the powers of the crest-bearers and the crestless. The crest-bearers will always have that technology plus their crest powers, and since they are the elite, they will foster technological developments that enhance their crest abilities. 

No technology has really been proposed period. It's kind of a problem. With Rhea gone, though, presumably it's possible to get to that point.

My hypothetical tech that doesn't really exist yet doesn't give crestbearers any additional abilities. They can have the tech but it's not really useful to them unless it gives them something more. It's like a new set of teeth is useless to anyone but the toothless.

3 minutes ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

If Rhea hadn't given the crests their holy significance and fostered a mind-set of crest-nobility (best exemplified by Ferdinand and Lorenz) what exactly do you think would have happened in this world, where a small number of people possess powers that allow them to easily dominate the masses by force?

You'd just get the same people in power you do now just without Rhea, who wasn't doing much to curtail their abuses anyway lol

The inevitable war and struggle between those vying for power may, ironically, result in less crest bearers as they try to annihilate each other. Great powers would rise and fall, as they are wont to do - but they'd progress. Those without crests would be at mercy of the crested, but they still sort of are at the start of the game anyway, so I'm not sure if their fortunes would be terribly different.

10 minutes ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

I just disagree that it's stagnant or falling apart at the seams. I see a world that is pretty typical of most human societies.

Maybe during feudal times, but like... we eventually got out of that era lol. I think people are underestimating just how bad it is to have your tech level remain stagnant for centuries while the rest of the world presumably doesn't have that barrier, and culturally Fodlan isn't much better, either.

It's a human society boxed off from the rest of the world, essentially. And it's not by a physical barrier but a religious one.

13 minutes ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

I disagree that Rhea has made humanity's impulses worse. I think she tried to make the best of a bad job, according to her lights, with very mixed results. Of course she had her own agenda, but that has never included causing unnecessary human suffering. People might just disagree with her, as they do with Edelgard, as to what kind of suffering counts as necessary.

I never said it was her goal to cause unnecessary human suffering, but I do think she thought some unnecessary human suffering was worth it if it meant keeping her control. Can't have the world descending into chaos if you start telling people what happened to Miklan, amirite?

It's all dependent on which lies you're more comfortable with.

20 minutes ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

The crests are not just tools. They are tremendous status symbols, socially elevating, bestowers of power and rank. I would go so far as to say that very few people actually want crests because they want to have super-strength or extra magic ability. They want crests for the status they confer. 

Because of Rhea.

Alone, crests just grant power.

 

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Quote

 

No technology has really been proposed period. It's kind of a problem. With Rhea gone, though, presumably it's possible to get to that point.

My hypothetical tech that doesn't really exist yet doesn't give crestbearers any additional abilities. They can have the tech but it's not really useful to them unless it gives them something more. It's like a new set of teeth is useless to anyone but the toothless.

 

It's probably not realistic to assume that Rhea is the only one standing in the way of tech. It's way more in the interests of the crested elites to prevent tech from supplanting them. But like I said, given that they are the elite, any technological progress in going to focus on enhancing their crest and increasing their edge over crest holders. 

Quote

 

You'd just get the same people in power you do now just without Rhea, who wasn't doing much to curtail their abuses anyway lol

The inevitable war and struggle between those vying for power may, ironically, result in less crest bearers as they try to annihilate each other. Great powers would rise and fall, as they are wont to do - but they'd progress. Those without crests would be at mercy of the crested, but they still sort of are at the start of the game anyway, so I'm not sure if their fortunes would be terribly different.

 

First Rhea gets blamed for controlling everything and then she gets blamed for not keeping everyone under control! It seems to me that she established this system because she was presented with the Crests as a fait accompli; now she runs the church with the primary motive of reviving her mother and keeping her family safe, and pretty much lets the humans get on with it unless the Church is threatened. You seem to be overlooking my point that is it better to try to channel these powerful forces in the direction of chivalry, nobility, service etc... than to let the Crest-holding elite dominate humanity with a free-for-all of unrestrained self-seeking power. Sure, most of the nobles don't live up to that ideal, but that's not Rhea's fault. Or maybe she should interfere more?

 

Quote

 

Maybe during feudal times, but like... we eventually got out of that era lol. I think people are underestimating just how bad it is to have your tech level remain stagnant for centuries while the rest of the world presumably doesn't have that barrier, and culturally Fodlan isn't much better, either.

It's a human society boxed off from the rest of the world, essentially. And it's not by a physical barrier but a religious one.


 

The rest of the world doesn't seem all that different. If they were, Dagda or Almyra could have annihilated technologically backwards Fodlan in one of their frequent wars, like the Europeans over-running pre-Colombian America. So clearly things are not so bad for Fodlan yet. 

There is Morfis, of course, but it is magically advanced, not technologically advanced. 

Quote

 

I never said it was her goal to cause unnecessary human suffering, but I do think she thought some unnecessary human suffering was worth it if it meant keeping her control. Can't have the world descending into chaos if you start telling people what happened to Miklan, amirite?

It's all dependent on which lies you're more comfortable with.


 

That is true enough. Everybody lies in this game. Rhea doesn't want the truth about Miklan to get out... Although IIRC correctly it's well known that handling a Hero's Relic when you don't have a crest will cause a fatal transformation. The whole of Catherine/Linhardt's support is about that. Edelgard, equally, doesn't want the truth about the Spears of Light to get out ("Yes, guys, our own allies massacred us in order to keep me in line"). 

Quote

 

Because of Rhea.

Alone, crests just grant power.

 

Yes. And whatever grants power also grants status. I actually find this to be one of the most dangerous aspects of Edelgard's plan: she seems to be wilfully blind to the truth that crests will always be desireable, and just dreamily hopes that one day she can build a meritocracy and everybody will be unselfishly cool with that.  

Here's what would actually happen.

1. Crest nobility overthrown, replaced with elite chosen on merit

2. 1 generation passes. Meritocratic elite seek to pass on their status and power to their children. Dynasties form. 

3. Meritocracy degenerates into oligarchy; children and grandchildren of meritocrats hold inherited positions but lack ability to rule prudently.

4. Crest-holders overthrow faltering meritocracy; nostalgic return to "good old days".

 

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34 minutes ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

It's probably not realistic to assume that Rhea is the only one standing in the way of tech. It's way more in the interests of the crested elites to prevent tech from supplanting them. But like I said, given that they are the elite, any technological progress in going to focus on enhancing their crest and increasing their edge over crest holders. 

Crests are becoming increasingly rare, so I think it may be more likely that the crestless nobles - who outnumber the ones with crests - will actually be more interested in the opposite.

Of course that doesn't matter if the crestless aren't ever given power to begin with, but the government reforms - particularly under Edelgard - presumably fix that.

34 minutes ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

First Rhea gets blamed for controlling everything and then she gets blamed for not keeping everyone under control!

She gets blamed for the job she does with the things she chooses to control, which is a lot when you're the self-appointed head of the dominant religion. Should she be above reproach now, or is this argument fated to descend into hyperbolic tangents?

34 minutes ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

It seems to me that she established this system because she was presented with the Crests as a fait accompli; now she runs the church with the primary motive of reviving her mother and keeping her family safe, and pretty much lets the humans get on with it unless the Church is threatened. You seem to be overlooking my point that is it better to try to channel these powerful forces in the direction of chivalry, nobility, service etc... than to let the Crest-holding elite dominate humanity with a free-for-all of unrestrained self-seeking power. Sure, most of the nobles don't live up to that ideal, but that's not Rhea's fault. Or maybe she should interfere more?

I'm not going to think it was a good idea for Rhea to give crested humans a divine mandate to rule as a way to guide them down a path of chivalry, nobility, service, etc. I'm pretty sure she knew they were going to come up short by that point lol.

She could probably afford to interfere more if that really was her intent (I'm doubtful it was - I'm more apt to believe she thought it'd make them more complacent and amiable to her), but since she doesn't, you can't really argue that humanity is actually better under her rule when it operates pretty much the same way - just in a manner more beneficial to her ends.

In short, I think she's pretty selfish. She does a really good job hiding and selling that she isn't, though, if the zeal of her supporters are any indication.

34 minutes ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

The rest of the world doesn't seem all that different. If they were, Dagda or Almyra could have annihilated technologically backwards Fodlan in one of their frequent wars, like the Europeans over-running pre-Colombian America. So clearly things are not so bad for Fodlan yet. 

Yet.

34 minutes ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

That is true enough. Everybody lies in this game. Rhea doesn't want the truth about Miklan to get out... Although IIRC correctly it's well known that handling a Hero's Relic when you don't have a crest will cause a fatal transformation. The whole of Catherine/Linhardt's support is about that. Edelgard, equally, doesn't want the truth about the Spears of Light to get out ("Yes, guys, our own allies massacred us in order to keep me in line").

I guess Miklan was just hoping it wouldn't happen to him for some reason, then.

(I'm pretty sure he didn't know.)

34 minutes ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

Yes. And whatever grants power also grants status. I actually find this to be one of the most dangerous aspects of Edelgard's plan: she seems to be wilfully blind to the truth that crests will always be desireable, and just dreamily hopes that one day she can build a meritocracy and everybody will be unselfishly cool with that.  

Here's what would actually happen.

1. Crest nobility overthrown, replaced with elite chosen on merit

2. 1 generation passes. Meritocratic elite seek to pass on their status and power to their children. Dynasties form. 

3. Meritocracy degenerates into oligarchy; children and grandchildren of meritocrats hold inherited positions but lack ability to rule prudently.

4. Crest-holders overthrow faltering meritocracy; nostalgic return to "good old days".

 

Edelgard will work to make crests not super special because of the suffering she's endured due to them. Out of the three lords, she's the one that will have the greatest drive to that end.

Obviously I can't determine the specifics nor do I have a crystal ball, but I can be certain of that.

Edited by Crysta

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Maybe the best thing to do would be to wait for Crests to die out naturally? Of course I understand why Edelgard didn't feel able to do that. 

Re: channeling crest powers in positive ways... Human beings generally fall short of ideals. That's no reason not to try. These powerful Crest-holders existed and were passing their powers to their descendants. It wasn't possible to pretend they didn't exist, and in a world where political power is grounded, ultimately, in force, they were always destined to have the upper hand. I just don't know what better thing Rhea could have done. All of her options were imperfect ones. 

I'm actually not a Rhea apologist. She has plenty to atone for. But laying all the blame for a society dominated by Crest-obsessed nobles at her door alone seems unfair. It could never have happened if humans weren't hungry for power and status. Like I said, she didn't invent the Crest system; it was forced on her in an arms race by her enemies. 

The kind of change in atittude that Edelgard dreams of can never be enforced from the top down, unfortunately. I know the game says that she succeeds and I accept that, but if I were writing fanfiction, the outcome wouldn't be so neat and sweet. 

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21 minutes ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

Maybe the best thing to do would be to wait for Crests to die out naturally? Of course I understand why Edelgard didn't feel able to do that.

 

Sweet Philemon, no! It has been over a millenium now. I take it the idea of 'Crests=Divine Favor' has been drilled in almost everyone in Fodlan. Meaning that if/when they disappear, the peasants would notice, look at the abuses the nobles are committing everyday, and make the following reasoning: 'Nobles have lost the Goddess' favor. Why should we keep listening to these pricks?'.

Mass revolts would be happening everywhere, and be an open bar for the Mole Men (which can use their knowledge to create Crest Bearers to craft 'new chosen' to 'lead the 'revolutions'). Or any foreign power kept at bay by now useless Relics. Fodlan would collapse, real bad. And the Church would probably seen as guilty by association, even  if Rhea can keep bestowing Crests of Seiros (cardinals and high ranks), and maybe Cethleann and Cichol ones if she can fast talk Seteth and Flaynn into it. But that's it.

Better to reduce their importance while they're here, rather than when the crisis happen.

 

22 minutes ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

I'm actually not a Rhea apologist. She has plenty to atone for. But laying all the blame for a society dominated by Crest-obsessed nobles at her door alone seems unfair. It could never have happened if humans weren't hungry for power and status. Like I said, she didn't invent the Crest system; it was forced on her in an arms race by her enemies. 

 

Well yes, the nobles screwed the pooch quite bad, with Mole Men assistance. But Rhea created the playground which allowed them to do so, and failed to enforce rules to keep this from happening. That's why she's getting a fair share of the blame.

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Rhea had over a thousand years. That's an absurdly long time. She had plenty of political power and influence as the archbishop in the Church of Seiros. She could have easily reduced the importance of Crests for the people, while still preaching her religion.

She has the one thing that no human does: time. 

Slow changes that can take up to centuries or more? Rhea has that and then some. She could have waited and kept using her Church to make people not covet the Crests to such an extent.

But Rhea neglected what she could have done, in favor of instead keeping the Church up in power just so that she can work to restore her mother. 

Remember the famous quote:

Quote

"With great power comes great responsibility."

 

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That is undoubtedly true. Her problem was that their whole founding myth and doctrine was based on Crests and Hero's Relics being gifts bestowed by the goddess upon worthy individuals who merited the recognition. She probably could have backtracked on that myth, but it would have been extremely difficult. It's like the fait accompli of her enemies making the crests and weapons locked her into this situation. Nevertheless, as you say, 1,000 years is enough time to figure out a way to undermine the religion that you started. 

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7 hours ago, Licoriceallsorts said:

That is undoubtedly true. Her problem was that their whole founding myth and doctrine was based on Crests and Hero's Relics being gifts bestowed by the goddess upon worthy individuals who merited the recognition. She probably could have backtracked on that myth, but it would have been extremely difficult. It's like the fait accompli of her enemies making the crests and weapons locked her into this situation. Nevertheless, as you say, 1,000 years is enough time to figure out a way to undermine the religion that you started. 

For one thing, the Church has the authority to reclaim the Relics. House Gautier was fearful of losing the Lance of Ruin. And per the new paralogue with Constance and Yuri, the Church actually does believe that the Relics rightfully belongs to them. 

And final thing that I feel cements the issues with the Church. Ingrid in her other routes helps restore House Galatea's land to power. In fact, I believe this is an Advice Box question to how to help bring a barren land to life, and the answer is to look at the library for agriculture techniques.

In such a case, it proves something. If the Church literally sat on agriculture techniques and never bothered to help Faerghus in the 400 years since its creation, it means the Church purposefully withheld the information. Keep in mind that Claude mentions to Leonie and Lorenz in a support conversation that the crops are not blessed by the goddess, which the other two find odd. Well, if agriculture is withheld, and they only make belief that the goddess bless crops, it keeps the people of Faerghus dependent on the Church more. 

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Brief tangent on the "Church bad" thing: did anyone else feel like the Hilda/Seteth C support came across kinda cult-like? It was the first time I ever actually thought bad about Seteth (Mark Whitten nailed the delivery, though).

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38 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

For one thing, the Church has the authority to reclaim the Relics. House Gautier was fearful of losing the Lance of Ruin. And per the new paralogue with Constance and Yuri, the Church actually does believe that the Relics rightfully belongs to them. 

And final thing that I feel cements the issues with the Church. Ingrid in her other routes helps restore House Galatea's land to power. In fact, I believe this is an Advice Box question to how to help bring a barren land to life, and the answer is to look at the library for agriculture techniques.

In such a case, it proves something. If the Church literally sat on agriculture techniques and never bothered to help Faerghus in the 400 years since its creation, it means the Church purposefully withheld the information. Keep in mind that Claude mentions to Leonie and Lorenz in a support conversation that the crops are not blessed by the goddess, which the other two find odd. Well, if agriculture is withheld, and they only make belief that the goddess bless crops, it keeps the people of Faerghus dependent on the Church more. 

I disagree whit the church whitholding agriculture technique. The greenhouse employ the techniques you would espect from a medieval society, and any student can see what they do here. And one of those notably employ pegasus crap.

Maybe she just stopped using the pegasi Galatea is known for for warfare and started using them for agriculture?

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4 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

I disagree whit the church whitholding agriculture technique. The greenhouse employ the techniques you would espect from a medieval society, and any student can see what they do here. And one of those notably employ pegasus crap.

Maybe she just stopped using the pegasi Galatea is known for for warfare and started using them for agriculture?

I dunno if you count gardening as the same as tending to the fields, but it could be simply up in regards to scale. As I said, if the Church has had the information, why did the Church never bother to share this information with Faerghus? They have an issue with resources, and we see for a fact that when Ingrid finally started worked to restore Galatea's land (added further by her paired ending with Raphael where he actually shared agriculture tips), and it seems like the Church very much did withhold information.

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Personally i just read it as The Galatea being into the whole knight thing and refusing to use the pegasi for more mundane tasks, because would deprive them of the one thing they can proud themselves for. In non BL routes Ingrid stop caring that much about chivalry so she can use her resources in a more efficient manner, with good results.

Edited by Flere210

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14 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

I disagree whit the church whitholding agriculture technique. The greenhouse employ the techniques you would espect from a medieval society, and any student can see what they do here. And one of those notably employ pegasus crap.

Maybe she just stopped using the pegasi Galatea is known for for warfare and started using them for agriculture?

I mean if we think about it for 20 seconds. There’s no actual in game evidence at all Rhea held back humanity at all zero. Adrestia the country that doesn’t even have heroes relics like the other two. According to Shamir completely destroyed Dagda. There’s books litterally every where as well. That list was clearly one of the fake ones Linhardt was talking about. Half the seven and the Kingdom half that worked with the slithers don’t even have crests.Heck there is even a slither mage in Sylvain and Raphaels paralogue. Implying Miklan and Lorenz dad where being manipulated by them as well. The game never actually shows the church being in the wrong ever. Oh no Rhea became the leader of a church she didn’t even create to form an army. To stop a guy who wants to wipe out her species and lied to defend afterwards that defended her species an the elites descendants from prosecution and hatred. Because you know Genocide and killing the continents god and savior. Would totally make you socially excepted. Church bad is all hearsay with no actual in game evidence an is never show ever. 

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14 minutes ago, Julian Solo said:

I mean if we think about it for 20 seconds. There’s no actual in game evidence at all Rhea held back humanity at all zero. Adrestia the country that doesn’t even have heroes relics like the other two. According to Shamir completely destroyed Dagda. There’s books litterally every where as well. That list was clearly one of the fake ones Linhardt was talking about.

 

Well, before that list, you had Claude's supports with Lorenz and Leonie, both of them started with his reflexions on agricultures. Both times, he is all about fertility not beign the result of the Goddess' blessings, and both of the times he get a 'Weird idea, dude' answer from Leonie and Lorenz. And both of them add 'Careful dude, I'll keep mum about it, but don't let the Church hear you say things like that'. Not exactly a good sign.

And several of the tech banned in that book fall in line with stuff that Real Life Church banned/fought. Telescopes? Copernic himself could have avoided persecutions, but his ideas didn't, ask Gallileo. Printing? Church was very much interested in limiting circulation of knowledges deemed unsafe (Index). Autopsy? There was a reason Renaissance humanists had to go the grave robbers way to get that done. And oil, I guess as a reference to Real Life now. So that looks like legit to me. And I would like to know what Linhardt meant by 'forgeries' too.

 

24 minutes ago, Julian Solo said:

Half the seven and the Kingdom half that worked with the slithers don’t even have crests.

 

You don't know that. Granted, I don't know if they had Crests either, but beyond a vassal like Rowe, and Gerth, we don't get to see the people you're talking about here. Crests are not limited to only one bloodline (See Bernadetta and Hanneman sharing one, or Lysitheia and Catherine. Or whoever actually possess the Macuil bloodline...).

 

27 minutes ago, Julian Solo said:

Heck there is even a slither mage in Sylvain and Raphaels paralogue. Implying Miklan and Lorenz dad where being manipulated by them as well.

 

They are marked as standard Dark Mages, like the ones you can see at Tailtean on Dimitri's side in CF. Mole Men are always getting a special mention when they are here.

 

29 minutes ago, Julian Solo said:

The game never actually shows the church being in the wrong ever.

 

Debatable. I usually don't look fondly on a structure which loses control of its branches so badly they make their own power moves, leading to nasty bloody conflicts, assassinations... And I doubt the Church is always squeaky clean (supports between Hubert and Shamir at least show they have assassins. People like that are rarely used for morally outstanding stuff).

Tech withholding is also not done without shedding quite the amount of blood long-term, without talking about writing history with a scalpel, or the sorts of things which would come with ruling a monotheistic religion, like squashing heresy.

The whole thing also distills quite the racism with the Crests creating the idea that Fodlani are a 'Chosen people', henceforth superior to unchosen people. When it doesn't give nobles a divine mandate to rule which twisted them into corrupt assholes long-term. And while doing jack shit to reverse the tendance until it is too late for doing so peacefully.

And there is 'deal with culprit decisively' and 'butcher them so fast you create an image of uncompromising assholes who kill first while never wondering about this weird concept called 'asking questions. Rhea does much of the latter, and bad news, it pretty much always is.

And if you were doing things so right, why is half the continent willing to revolt against you? During the equivalent of medieval times, aka a time when religious authorities could easily trump political leaders?

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