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The True Tragedy of Three Houses

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2 minutes ago, Jingle Jangle said:

From what information there is about the nations in Three Houses, I got the impression that they mostly distant with each other. However Adrestian Empire has a history with the islands; also  Leicester Alliance have a rough time with Almyra. The times countries do interact in game, the church plays in some role. 

The way I see it, Claude does understand where Edelgard is coming from. But disagrees with her her a person and methods  She did say that Leicester Alliance was -"merely offshoost" in the first chapter with him overhearing. Plus the whole waging 5 years of war and causing turmoil in the Alliance.

I view Edelgard will wage more of a witch hunt against dragon kind rather a genocide. In most routes Rhea is capured for whatever reason for 5 years. There has to be a deeper reason for that. For her Byleth with relationship I interpret it as "you are one one of the good ones" logic.

With Rhea being captured I just interpret that this means that she probably wouldn't have been killed if she surrendered and didn't burn down the kingdom capital, if she was less than arranged at the end of crimson flower Edelgard might have shown mercy on her and allowed her to live. If imprisonment really is mercy coming from Edelgard given her personal history. 

There are like three dragons in existence, with the exception of a few additional ones outside of Fodlan, we are not exactly talking about a huge demographic of people. Edelgard has shown to have problems with people believing they have a right to rule others based on factors of birth, so I think her main objection towards drgon kind is that they think themselves superior to humans and think they have a right to rule over them. She also knows very little about them, so she is making a few assumptions, the little she does know comes from her father and the Agarthans.

Edelgard might have a bias against dragon kind, but that bias comes from her interpretation that they consider themselves superior to humans. Edelgard wants humanity to be in control of their own destiny and not be controlled by the whims of immortals. She seems like the type who would object to anyone ruling eternally, humanity does leads to exchange leadership. Every once in a while to not become stagnant.

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2 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Edelgard might have a bias against dragon kind, but that bias comes from her interpretation that they consider themselves superior to humans. Edelgard wants humanity to be in control of their own destiny and not be controlled by the whims of immortals. She seems like the type who would object to anyone ruling eternally, humanity does leads to exchange leadership. Every once in a while to not become stagnant.

In a way, Edelgard isn't necessarily wrong. Rhea thoroughly believes that the only way to save humanity is to have Sothis rule over humans. 

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11 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

In a way, Edelgard isn't necessarily wrong. Rhea thoroughly believes that the only way to save humanity is to have Sothis rule over humans. 

I never said she was wrong, there is a reason I side with Edelgard in all of this. There is also the fact that I am not certain what type of person Sothis really was back in the day she was still alive, there seem to be more than enough few implications that Dragon kind considered themselves above humanity. Even back then. Sothis seems to have already been considered a goddess. Did the Agarthans perhaps fight back against the Dragons because of their attempts to control humanity?

Of course, this doesn't make the Agarthans in the right, they are a primary example of what someone can become if they let their obsession with vengeance consume them, they might share a common enemy with Edelgard, but their motivations are more in line with Dimitri at his worst, desiring vengeance first and foremost at any cost.

Of course, the Dragons aren't necessarily evil either, but due to their power and lifespan. It is just natural that they would consider themselves superior beings who knows better what is best for humanity and humanity, which humanity would naturally object to

Edited by Darkmoon6789

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1 minute ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I never said she was wrong, there is a reason I side with Edelgard in all of this. There is also the fact that I am not certain what type of person Sothis really was back in the day she was still alive, there seem to be more than enough few implications that Dragon kind considered themselves above humanity. Even back then. Sothis seems to have already been considered a goddess. Did the Agarthans perhaps fight back against the Dragons because of their attempts to control humanity?

Of course, this doesn't make the Agarthans in the right, they are a primary example of what someone can become if they let their obsession with vengeance consume them, they might share a common enemy with Edelgard, but their motivations are more in line with Dimitri at his worst, desiring vengeance first and foremost at any cost.

Of course, the Dragons aren't necessarily evil either, but due to their power and lifespan. It is just natural that they would consider themselves superior beings who knows better what is best for humanity and humanity, which humanity would naturally object to

In a way, everyone developed some form of trust issues. There's a reason why they simply can't hold the utmost faith. 

Cause the thing is, people, dragon or human, are complicated. What might seem so easy to just talk about isn't easy for them to talk about.

Can Rhea simply talk to people about the genocide she suffered that easily? Can Edelgard just talk to everyone how she feels she needs to start a war because she doesn't see any other way? Can Dimitri just talk about how he can hear the ghosts of the dead telling him to take revenge? Can Claude just talk about the fact that he's half Almyran? 

You COULD, but there comes the fear or pre-judgment you make of other people.

You yourself automatically believe that the other people simply can't or won't understand. 

If logic is a product of Order, then emotions are a product of Chaos. 

Here's a quote that is spoken by Kliff from Echoes:

Quote

Kliff: What’s this about a fight with Celica? You were so close when we were young. You never fought once! Well, regardless, I’m sure there was a reason for it. Celica was never mean, but she could be standoffish. You could always tell she was keeping something bottled up. …Hmm? Well, yes, I suppose I do the same thing from time to time. But when you think about it, it’s kind of selfish. To keep another’s secret is a sign of strength and trust. But when we hold our own secrets in, we’re only judging everyone else. “You can never understand,” we think. It’s sad, but…it’s what we do.

 

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3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

In a way, everyone developed some form of trust issues. There's a reason why they simply can't hold the utmost faith. 

Cause the thing is, people, dragon or human, are complicated. What might seem so easy to just talk about isn't easy for them to talk about.

Can Rhea simply talk to people about the genocide she suffered that easily? Can Edelgard just talk to everyone how she feels she needs to start a war because she doesn't see any other way? Can Dimitri just talk about how he can hear the ghosts of the dead telling him to take revenge? Can Claude just talk about the fact that he's half Almyran? 

You COULD, but there comes the fear or pre-judgment you make of other people.

You yourself automatically believe that the other people simply can't or won't understand. 

If logic is a product of Order, then emotions are a product of Chaos. 

Here's a quote that is spoken by Kliff from Echoes:

 

Well, the thing with Edelgard is that if she did trust anyone with her secret who wasn't fully on board with the idea, she would risk everything as they would warn others of her plans, so she cannot risk anyone finding out as she is afraid they might oppose her. You could say that Edelgard is so closed of because deep down, she is afraid of rejection. Note how she never actually entrusts Byleth with her secret, they just join her anyway, something she thought wouldn't be possible, even if Edelgard had hoped they would understand. But Edelgard still never took the risk to actually tell them because she was afraid of Byleth rejecting her if they knew the truth. Is Rhea perhaps also afraid of rejection?

You know, I get the impression that Edelgard wouldn't really care that Claude is half Almyran, but she has expressed that him being a foreigner to Fodlan means that he cannot understand the problems of the continent enough so that he would be an effective ruler or the entire continent. Claude definitely has this fear of rejection as his reason for not telling people.

The way I see it, both logic and emotions are necessary to function properly, just like order and chaos are necessary for the world. Some say chaos is evil, but it can also be a necessary force for change, too much order can become tyrannical and oppressive. In the same manner, it is equally important to hold a balance between logic and emotions within yourself

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1 minute ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Well, the thing with Edelgard is that if she did trust anyone with her secret who wasn't fully on board with the idea, she would risk everything as they would warn others of her plans, so she cannot risk anyone finding out as she is afraid they might oppose her. You could say that Edelgard is so closed of because deep down, she is afraid of rejection. Note how she never actually entrusts Byleth with her secret, they just join her anyway, something she thought wouldn't be possible, even if Edelgard had hoped they would understand. But Edelgard still never took the risk to actually tell them because she was afraid of Byleth rejecting her if they knew the truth. Is Rhea perhaps also afraid of rejection?

You know, I get the impression that Edelgard wouldn't really care that Claude is half Almyran, but she has expressed that him being a foreigner to Fodlan means that he cannot understand the problems of the continent enough so that he would be an effective ruler or the entire continent. Claude definitely has this fear of rejection as his reason for not telling people.

The way I see it, both logic and emotions are necessary to function properly, just like order and chaos are necessary for the world. Some say chaos is evil, but it can also be a necessary force for change, too much order can become tyrannical and oppressive. In the same manner, it is equally important to hold a balance between logic and emotions within yourself

That's just it. Not everyone will agree with you. That's the nature of people. And everything depends on the other person. 

Maybe Claude could have said his secret, but what's the chance that the other person would not use that secret against Claude and remove Claude from power or chase him away? Say that Lorenz learned it and he mentioned it to his dad? Boom, his dad uses the information for his benefit. 

And it's worse when you hold different beliefs.

Let's look at Edelgard, who believes that nobility and Crests should not exist and the world would be better off without them, compared to Dimitri, who believes that they should exist because they are a power meant to be used to ward off threats. 

 

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4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's just it. Not everyone will agree with you. That's the nature of people. And everything depends on the other person. 

Maybe Claude could have said his secret, but what's the chance that the other person would not use that secret against Claude and remove Claude from power or chase him away? Say that Lorenz learned it and he mentioned it to his dad? Boom, his dad uses the information for his benefit. 

And it's worse when you hold different beliefs.

Let's look at Edelgard, who believes that nobility and Crests should not exist and the world would be better off without them, compared to Dimitri, who believes that they should exist because they are a power meant to be used to ward off threats. 

 

Yes, this is the reason that Edelgard actually has a very good reason to be secretive, she could have trust in some people, but is also taking a massive risk. 

Dimitri hasn't seen what Edelgard has seen when it comes to crests, she has personal experience in just how awful they actually are birthed from horrible blood magic rather than the holy gifts. The church claim they are. One thing I realised lately is that in her supports, Edelgard mentions that not only her and her siblings were victims of the whole process, countless lives were sacrificed to give her the crest of flames. It is because of the people whose lives were traded for her existence that she is so determined to put an end to the crest system.

These types of awful experiments would only become more common with time as crests get more and more rare as bloodlines get thinner, with that in mind, things do need to change

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30 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Can Rhea simply talk to people about the genocide she suffered that easily? Can Edelgard just talk to everyone how she feels she needs to start a war because she doesn't see any other way? Can Dimitri just talk about how he can hear the ghosts of the dead telling him to take revenge? Can Claude just talk about the fact that he's half Almyran? 

I just like how all characters have pretty deep psycological scars and reasons to not trust others. Except Claude ? "Racism". You know about him only tiny details that can disregarded as stupid writing, and the fact he was discriminated against, the most important part, despite being the prince and that his mother apparently wasn't somehow.

I find Claude to be both jarring and grating... aaaaand uninteresting. Especially when compared to the others lords.

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Is there anything to suggest that the Nabateans were ruling humanity after Sothis went to sleep? All we know is that most of them retreated to Zanado after she went into her slumber, and humanity did it's own thing. While we can assume that long-lived beings feel superior, there is still nothing to suggest that this was the case.

The closest we even get to this starts when Rhea goes around drumming up support in what would be the future Empire to take down Nemesis, which didn't happen overnight. Rhea only becomes a control freak as a defense mechanism, her entire race is practically extinct. After Nemesis dies (which in part was definitely revenge), everything she does thereafter is for two reasons: survival, and bringing her mother back. I also believe it's implied she intended for Sothis to bring back her lost siblings once she has revived. The best way to ensure that is to rule humanity by whatever means she deems necessary. Does she view humans as lesser beings? Perhaps, but it would all seem to stem from the Red Canyon, and nothing about a dragon's inborn nature (such as dragons in general media).

Say what you will about Rhea, but ruling humanity for the sake of it was never a part of the equation.

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1 minute ago, Slyfox said:

Is there anything to suggest that the Nabateans were ruling humanity after Sothis went to sleep? All we know is that most of them retreated to Zanado after she went into her slumber, and humanity did it's own thing. While we can assume that long-lived beings feel superior, there is still nothing to suggest that this was the case.

The closest we even get to this starts when Rhea goes around drumming up support in what would be the future Empire to take down Nemesis, which didn't happen overnight. Rhea only becomes a control freak as a defense mechanism, her entire race is practically extinct. After Nemesis dies (which in part was definitely revenge), everything she does thereafter is for two reasons: survival, and bringing her mother back. I also believe it's implied she intended for Sothis to bring back her lost siblings once she has revived. The best way to ensure that is to rule humanity by whatever means she deems necessary. Does she view humans as lesser beings? Perhaps, but it would all seem to stem from the Red Canyon, and nothing about a dragon's inborn nature (such as dragons in general media).

Say what you will about Rhea, but ruling humanity for the sake of it was never a part of the equation.

It wasn't meant to be, but that's what it became and what Rhea ultimately believed in by the end. We lack info on what happened exactly in the past, but what we do know is that after the massacre and Rhea believing Sothis told her to save humanity, Rhea simply believed that she had to be the one to guide them until she could revive Sothis, and then everything would be better. 

In her mind, it doesn't matter what humans did suffer or how many died. If Sothis came back, then everything was justified. 

 

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On 2/15/2020 at 4:15 AM, Sentinel07 said:

Sums it all up nicely I'd say. It's not perfect, but I think overall the writers did a pretty dang good job with the story and world they set up. 🙂

That being said, I do hope they take a break from tragedies for a bit. A simple feel-good story like Sacred Stones and Path of Radiance is nice every now and then. No need to have my heart ripped apart in every game. 😄

 This so very much.

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7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Maybe also take a break from multi-route and avatars too.

I wonder what three houses would be like without an avatar. Just imagine playing as Edelgard if you chose Black Eagles for example. How would that change the story presentation?

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1 hour ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I wonder what three houses would be like without an avatar. Just imagine playing as Edelgard if you chose Black Eagles for example. How would that change the story presentation?

A lot of things would need to be rewritten for Edelgard so that another way can exist for her to be saved and stay close to her humanity.

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On 3/12/2020 at 6:45 PM, Darkmoon6789 said:

I wonder what three houses would be like without an avatar. Just imagine playing as Edelgard if you chose Black Eagles for example. How would that change the story presentation?

Well, I'm guessing that situation would probably eliminate Silver Snow entirely (though that might be for the best).

For Edelgard, perhaps it'd be something like her fellow Black Eagle students keeping her humanity in check rather than Byleth. Actually, I'd imagine Byleth's absence in general would make the supporting members of the houses all the more important. Byleth wouldn't be there to assist in Dimitri's redemption so others would have to step up to the plate. Same with someone helping Claude with his ambitions since he wants a figurehead.

Edited by Sentinel07

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On 2/16/2020 at 1:28 PM, omegaxis1 said:

Also, the thing about how the corrupt nobles are the problem is something I find amazing. Edelgard knows that corrupt nobility is an issue, but does getting rid of them stop future generations from doing the same thing? What's to stop them? Edelgard is looking at the bigger picture. She's looking directly at the root of the problem, which is the nobility system itself, and how Crests support those nobility, and the Crests are upheld because the Church always places them as objects of worship

 

Where does the Church place the crests as objects worthy of worship? I want actual text from the script to support your point. 

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Just now, Icelerate said:
Where does the Church place the crests as objects worthy of worship? I want actual text from the script to support your point. 

Here's the book of Seiros page:

Quote

With the goddess's omnipotence and wisdom to guide her, Seiros ensured that her will be done.
As the goddess's sword, Seiros wards all evil.
As the goddess's child, Seiros makes emperors of mortals.
As the goddess's wings, Seiros elevates her people.

As the goddess's voice, Seiros spreads the word of love. 

Hanneman and Edelgard's support:

Quote

Edelgard: Well, we're fighting to free the world from the church's control and to unify Fódlan. You must have some idea of what the world I'm seeking to create will be like.

Hanneman: With the world freed from the powers of Crests, Fódlan's system of nobility will collapse.

Edelgard: Precisely. Our current system is founded on the fact that Crests are inherited through blood. If we shatter the status quo so that those without Crests are no longer at the mercy of those with them, the very concept of nobility will vanish.

The entire Imperial bloodline is based on how Seiros bestowed her Crest onto Wilhelm, who became the first emperor. 

Then we get about how Chapter 5 with Miklan:

Quote

Seteth: They stole a Hero's Relic from House Gautier of the Holy Kingdom of Faerghus–the Lance of Ruin. Their leader's name is Miklan. He is apparently a disowned son of House Gautier.

Byleth: Why was he disowned?

Seteth: I believe it had something to do with his lack of a Crest. Such happenings are fairly common within the Kingdom.

Rhea: The Crestless cannot unless the goddess's power, even if they possess a Relic. Nonetheless, they are still capable of simply wielding those weapons.

Then after the event:

Quote

Rhea: Professor, you have returned. The goddess is indeed generous with her divine protection. I have already heard Gilbert's report about what happened. See to it that you keep what transpired at the tower to yourself. People would lose faith in the nobles should rumors spread of one using a Relic and transforming into a monster. All regions of Fódlan would fall into chaos. We must avoid that at all costs. Please ensure the students who accompanied you understand that as well. Have I made myself clear?

[...]

Rhea: His transformation into a Black Beast was nothing short of divine punishment from the goddess. Punishment for someone arrogant and foolish enough to use a Hero's Relic even though they were unworthy and unqualified.

Apply some logic overall.

Rhea's been in charge of the Church of Seiros for over a thousand years. She is the one that placed the doctrines that people follow and abide by, and is the one that distributed the Relics to nobles in the first place. 

Like, how much evidence do you need?

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14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Here's the book of Seiros page:

Hanneman and Edelgard's support:

The entire Imperial bloodline is based on how Seiros bestowed her Crest onto Wilhelm, who became the first emperor. 

Then we get about how Chapter 5 with Miklan:

Then after the event:

Apply some logic overall.

Rhea's been in charge of the Church of Seiros for over a thousand years. She is the one that placed the doctrines that people follow and abide by, and is the one that distributed the Relics to nobles in the first place. 

Like, how much evidence do you need?

I guess it depends on the definition of worship. 

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The true tragedy of this game is the ignorance to never see another option.

Every character is stuck on their own ideals stuck in their own cage that they can't look at others for help.

It is just specific stubbornness that I don't like edelgard or Rhea they're stubborn to a fault impossible to change unless truly forced to sheep s and monsters clothing

 

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6 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

I guess it depends on the definition of worship. 

You are talking about the Church of Seiros, which is what the majority of the nations and people as a whole support due to it being the religion of the continent. 

Religion + Medieval times = A BIG DEAL!

Just now, jawaunw said:

The true tragedy of this game is the ignorance to never see another option.

Every character is stuck on their own ideals stuck in their own cage that they can't look at others for help.

It is just specific stubbornness that I don't like edelgard or Rhea they're stubborn to a fault impossible to change unless truly forced to sheep s and monsters clothing

Yeah, everyone is stubborn. It isn't just Edelgard and Rhea.

Dimitri is consumed by revenge and refuses to listen to anything until he has his redemption in AM.

Claude is unwilling to trust others because of xenophobia in Fodlan until he learns to trust Byleth. 

Edited by omegaxis1

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7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

You are talking about the Church of Seiros, which is what the majority of the nations and people as a whole support due to it being the religion of the continent. 

Religion + Medieval times = A BIG DEAL!

Yeah, everyone is stubborn. It isn't just Edelgard and Rhea.

Dimitri is consumed by revenge and refuses to listen to anything until he has his redemption in AM.

Claude is unwilling to trust others because of xenophobia in Fodlan until he learns to trust Byleth. 

I believe Dimitri is the greatest example of ignorance in the story he is a sheep throughout to his own lust and rage

point that it nearly completely destroys him and everyone he supposedly cares about only until another person dies does he actually change

After taking back his kingdom that is when I actually start the like Dimitri that is when he sees the light he stop being a sheep to his emotions

in this story Dimitri represents the thing that I hate the most in the world and the thing that I also love the most The capacity for change

For everyone to make themselves better

Claude's changes overall small in my opinion story even shows it when our main character meets him again unlike all the other characters we don't meet him in the darkness we meet him in the light

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1 minute ago, jawaunw said:

I believe Dimitri is the greatest example of ignorance in the story he is a sheep throughout to his own lust and rage

point that it nearly completely destroys him and everyone he supposedly cares about only until another person dies does he actually change

After taking back his kingdom that is when I actually start the like Dimitri that is when he sees the light he stop being a sheep to his emotions

in this story Dimitri represents the thing that I hate the most in the world and the thing that I also love the most The capacity for change

For everyone to make themselves better

Claude's changes overall small in my opinion story even shows it when our main character meets him again unlike all the other characters we don't meet him in the darkness we meet him in the light

In the end, no one was willing to open up to one another. Everyone was closed off, consumed in their own beliefs and stubbornness. 

In fact, given how Fodlan acts, it seems almost like there's very little forms of actual communication between nations. Very little trust. Things needed to change. 

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38 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

You are talking about the Church of Seiros, which is what the majority of the nations and people as a whole support due to it being the religion of the continent. 

Religion + Medieval times = A BIG DEAL!

 

Just because a particular religion puts something on a high pedestal doesn't mean the religion instructs its adherents to worship that said thing. 

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2 hours ago, jawaunw said:

The true tragedy of this game is the ignorance to never see another option.

Every character is stuck on their own ideals stuck in their own cage that they can't look at others for help.

It is just specific stubbornness that I don't like edelgard or Rhea they're stubborn to a fault impossible to change unless truly forced to sheep s and monsters clothing

 

Maybe it is because I am so attuned to Edelgard, but one thing that annoyed me during her conversation with Dimitri before the final battle in the end of azure moon. Dimitri may have problems with her methods, but he never really offers an alternative solution to Fodlans problems. To my understanding he is essentially saying the rulers should do nothing while waiting for the people to rise up on their own accord.

People might not like Edelgard's solution, but at least she has one. Doesnt really seem like anyone else really have a solution to Fodlan's problems. 

But yeah, Edelgard is still definatly stubborn.

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