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The True Tragedy of Three Houses

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Just now, Darkmoon6789 said:

Actually, to my understanding she didn't give Thales the reigns, he already had them. He had full control of Edelgard's father, if anything she was given the reigns by him

Arundel was the regent post Part 1, however power was largely in the hands of Duke Aegir before Edelgard took over. After Duke Aegir is imprisoned, Arundel takes control of his lands, which mind you included Hrym teritorry that he excessively already taxed, and bleeds that place dry and places forced conscription with execution as the punishment for not complying. Similar things happen in Fhirdiad where Cornelia is in charge.

She needed their power for her cause but she's also kind of complicit in allowing them to abuse her citizens like that.

Also again, kinda glad we can actually have a discussion about this stuff without being at each other's throats.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Explain for... what? 

To shatter his beliefs? That he literally dragged his nation to a war, killed countless people, and caused his own soldiers to turn themselves into monsters, all for a misguided belief? If Dimitri was able to listen to reason, then Edelgard did something far crueler. She made him realize that he did all this for nothing. That his beliefs amounted to naught.

Remember what Edelgard said about Lonato? That pitying him and labeling him as merely a victim, when he died for his beliefs, is truly the most disrespectful thing. 

Edelgard would rather Dimitri die believing he was right than to die knowing how much he screwed up. Even though the act of what she did afterward was gutting at her heart. 

That's the thing. Dimitri and Edelgard both fought for their beliefs. 

Edelgard doesn't know the full truth about Rhea, and thus sees has as a monster that manipulated humanity for her own selfish purpose. Dimitri didn't know that Edelgard was innocent of the Tragedy of Duscur. 

They are bound by their own form of reality. And that reality is their beliefs, and that they staked everything on. They piled so many corpses on it, and would stake their lives into that belief. 

Explain where she was in all of this instead of saying had nothing to do with it when like or not from Dimitri's pov (the audience themselves too if AM was their first path) she just had a conversation with those that slithered that said they did it all for her so she can rise up.

image.thumb.png.7af106c3bf4bb50176ac939fc45962d2.png

Also calling him "King of Delusion" was a disrespectful quip all that was needed to say was farewell Dimitri nothing more nothing less. Also you do realize that Dimitri and the rest of Faergus as Felix and the rest (church included in joining forces) say they joined Dimitri not out of love for the fool but because the Imperial Army and what it is doing needs to be stopped as they plunged the land into a war. They were fighting the Imperial Army before finding him so either way it made no difference.

Edited by AbsoluteZer0Nova

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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

More like she doesn't now enough about them and thus needs to investigate them as much as she could, hence why she and Hubert investigate them. It's how they were able to figure out that the Agarthans were the ones behind the Aillel. Know the saying, "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer." 

But doing so meant that Edelgard had to comply with quite a few of their atrocious actions. 

I meant how she gave Thales the Death Knight, and then in Chapter 12, she had to comply with Thales's strategy in non-CF routes. It's why CF route has the war change extensively.

 

 

You're thinking Arundel. Aegir is Ferdinand's father, who dies in Ferdinand/Lysithea paralogue in non-CF routes. 

This seems like a very generous assessment. I got no indication from Edelgard that the intent was more to investigate them than to use them, and them figuring out it was likely the Agarthans seems like it was a conclusion they arrived to by process of elimination and because Thales was being a cryptic bugger just before leaving them.

I don't think she genuinely felt she had to comply, particularly because... well... I deliberately used her to turn on them and kill them at every opportunity in game lol. You could argue that was a gameplay restraint, but I did get the feeling she wasn't being forced to do anything. She's comfortable outright threatening when she's the Flame Emperor. Though she does weirdly scale it back when interacting with Thales later, it may be because he's growing suspicious of her now taking actual action against them at a point where she still needs their cooperation for the war effort.

Arundel = Thales. But no, I meant him. Aegir is presumably regent to the Emperor but replaced in all routes, including in CF.

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17 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

Arundel was the regent post Part 1, however power was largely in the hands of Duke Aegir before Edelgard took over. After Duke Aegir is imprisoned, Arundel takes control of his lands, which mind you included Hrym teritorry that he excessively already taxed, and bleeds that place dry and places forced conscription with execution as the punishment for not complying. Similar things happen in Fhirdiad where Cornelia is in charge.

She needed their power for her cause but she's also kind of complicit in allowing them to abuse her citizens like that.

Also again, kinda glad we can actually have a discussion about this stuff without being at each other's throats.

 

 

I am also glad that I found a place to have discussions like this in a civilised manner.

Whatever is the case otherwise, Edelgard clearly despises the Slitherers and hates working with them, omly doing so because it is neccesary. Even worse for her as Hubert's reasoning is sound. I didnt understand why she associated with them, but Hubert actually convinced me it was the best move however much I hated it

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Just now, Axel987 said:

Arundel was the regent post Part 1, however power was largely in the hands of Duke Aegir before Edelgard took over. After Duke Aegir is imprisoned, Arundel takes control of his lands, which mind you included Hrym teritorry that he excessively already taxed, and bleeds that place dry and places forced conscription with execution as the punishment for not complying. Similar things happen in Fhirdiad where Cornelia is in charge.

She needed their power for her cause but she's also kind of complicit in allowing them to abuse her citizens like that.

Also again, kinda glad we can actually have a discussion about this stuff without being at each other's throats.

It's amazing how tragic things are, not only for the other nations, but the Empire as well in non-CF routes. Edelgard gives too much control to the Agarthans and let them go crazy. This paralogue being missing in CF is likely because the horrible treatment of the Hrym territory is not done since the Agarthans aren't as much in control, but are working on maintaining their army. 

Like I pointed out, Edelgard letting the Agarthans have too much control in things she's doing is a surefire way of causing tragedy. 

1 minute ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

Explain where she was in all of this instead of saying had nothing to do with it when like or not from Dimitri's pov (the audience themselves too if AM was their first path) she just had a conversation with those that slithered that said they did it all for her so she can rise up.

Also calling him "King of Delusion" was a disrespectful quip all that was needed to say was farewell Dimitri nothing more nothing less. Also you do realize that Dimitri and the rest of Faergus as Felix and the rest say they joined Dimitri not out of love for the fool but because the Imperial Army and what it is doing needs to be stopped as they plunged the land into a war.

Again, and shatter literally everything he believed in? He literally spewed to her face that he will kill her for killing his father and her mother. He was explicitly blaming her for the Tragedy of Duscur. If she tells him she didn't do it, and say he believes her in a hypothetical scenario, guess what? His belief is utterly shattered, and what did he do? He caused a war to enter his nation. Rodrigue died (and so did his friends unless they joined Edelgard), and Dedue died after turning into a monster, and his own soldiers turned themselves into monsters for him. 

So everything that happened would slam into him like a truck, and if he wasn't dead already, he'd be wishing he was dead now.

Yeah, she calls him the King of Delusion, but that's all just to feed his image of her being the monster. Like I said, she would rather him die believing he was right, believing that she's every bit of the monster he believes she is, than to make him be crushed by the truth. Hence why right after, she mourns his death. Did she want to say those things? No. But she was acting how she does. Is it the best? Obviously not. But she acts on her beliefs.

11 minutes ago, Crysta said:

This seems like a very generous assessment. I got no indication from Edelgard that the intent was more to investigate them than to use them, and them figuring out it was likely the Agarthans seems like it was a conclusion they arrived to by process of elimination and because Thales was being a cryptic bugger just before leaving them.

I don't think she genuinely felt she had to comply, particularly because... well... I deliberately used her to turn on them and kill them at every opportunity in game lol. You could argue that was a gameplay restraint, but I did get the feeling she wasn't being forced to do anything. She's comfortable outright threatening when she's the Flame Emperor. Though she does weirdly scale it back when interacting with Thales later, it may be because he's growing suspicious of her now taking actual action against them at a point where she still needs their cooperation for the war effort.

Arundel = Thales. But no, I meant him. Aegir is presumably regent to the Emperor but replaced in all routes, including in CF.

She literally says that weakening them and having them expose their hand would be beneficial to them. Hubert has a paralogue of how he's been investigating them. Not to mention that's also how Jeritza and Byleth gets a covert mission to destroy an Agarthan base. 

She kind of did. The Agarthans held the reigns in the Empire for most of Part 1, so despite it seeming that Hubert making it seem like Edelgard had a choice in working with them, she really had little choice to. They call her their "creation" after all, and that she's meant to help bring them to salvation. They were gonna use her whether she liked it or not.

Arundel is always regarded as the regent, while Aegir is the prime minister, but he holds the political power according to most sources. But Arundel clearly has been using him the entire time. 

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10 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Again, and shatter literally everything he believed in? He literally spewed to her face that he will kill her for killing his father and her mother. He was explicitly blaming her for the Tragedy of Duscur. If she tells him she didn't do it, and say he believes her in a hypothetical scenario, guess what? His belief is utterly shattered, and what did he do? He caused a war to enter his nation. Rodrigue died (and so did his friends unless they joined Edelgard), and Dedue died after turning into a monster, and his own soldiers turned themselves into monsters for him. 

Where are you getting this he causes a war? There's already a war going on before hand that Edelgard declares when Rhea retreats to Faergus.image.png.be93a02d2c64e2b8878e0d176dc4dd68.png

Edelgard is the only one that declares war in every single path of 3H this does not change. Also you know full well Dimitri wasn't for Dedue along with the soldiers becoming monsters though they volunteered this was behind Dimitri's back as the rest of the soldiers viewed it to be their last stand to protect their king and the kingdom. Dimitri doesn't like it but the damage has been done already. Rodrigue and the rest died in trying to protect their home as they tried protecting it long before Dimitri was found in Azure Moon which I repeat again Felix says it best to Byleth in Azure Moon why they fight.

Edited by AbsoluteZer0Nova

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11 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

She literally says that weakening them and having them expose their hand would be beneficial to them. Hubert has a paralogue of how he's been investigating them. Not to mention that's also how Jeritza and Byleth gets a covert mission to destroy an Agarthan base. 

She kind of did. The Agarthans held the reigns in the Empire for most of Part 1, so despite it seeming that Hubert making it seem like Edelgard had a choice in working with them, she really had little choice to. They call her their "creation" after all, and that she's meant to help bring them to salvation. They were gonna use her whether she liked it or not.

Arundel is always regarded as the regent, while Aegir is the prime minister, but he holds the political power according to most sources. But Arundel clearly has been using him the entire time. 

I'm not arguing that they see no benefit in investigating them, particularly in anticipation of fighting them after the war, but I am arguing against that investigation was the primary intent all along. It's secondary. Their primary use is their power, which they're willing to supply because they have a mutual enemy. Hubert admits that it took some convincing on his behalf to make Edelgard agree to the arrangement, but he makes it clear it was a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" arrangement.

Thales requests the Death Knight, she agrees to it. He did not demand she give him to him, ironically enough.

The Agarthans have extensively infiltrated the Empire and Kingdom prior to her ascending to the throne, and it would be difficult to just outright uproot them, but she does decide to use them for her own ends first. Being in such close proximity with them does give her and Hubert more opportunities to track their movements, but in-game it's made pretty clear that it's still limited even so. Thales keeps his plans under wraps and mostly succeeds.

I thought it was unlikely that Thales was appointed regent because he left to the Kingdom, but the Insurrection may have changed that. Touche', I guess. I probably still wouldn't have let him have Hyrm, though, assuming there were other capable candidates available that weren't... blatantly evil.

Edited by Crysta

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2 minutes ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

Where are you getting this he causes a war? There's already a war going on before hand that Edelgard declares when Rhea retreats to Faergus.image.png.be93a02d2c64e2b8878e0d176dc4dd68.png

Edelgard is the only one that declares war in every single path of 3H this does not change.

He caused the war to enter Faerghus territory by offering asylum to and later allying with the church in CF. Edelgard's goal has always been to take out the church first and foremost, with unifying Fodlan as a secondary objective at best. I'm not saying he's wrong for doing so, but you also have to acknowledge that he did end up causing the war to enter his homeland.

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3 minutes ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

Where are you getting this he causes a war? There's already a war going on before hand that Edelgard declares when Rhea retreats to Faergus.image.png.be93a02d2c64e2b8878e0d176dc4dd68.png

Edelgard is the only one that declares war in every single path of 3H this does not change. Also you know full well Dimitri wasn't for Dedue along with the soldiers becoming monsters though they volunteered this was behind Dimitri's back as the rest of the soldiers viewed it to be their last stand to protect their king and the kingdom. Dimitri doesn't like it but the damage has been done already.

Yeah, gonna have to burst your bubble on this, but the narration treats it as a historical moment, like a historian does.

The truth is that the EMpire never once attacked either the Kingdom or the Alliance. This is due to how in Chapter 13, an NPC and Hubert both point out that the Empire never once fought the Alliance in the entirety of the five years they've been at war. 

The only reason that they are at war against the Kingdom is because Dimitri allied himself with the Church, thus making his nation enter the war. He chose to enter the war, and all of that is because he wanted revenge on Edelgard for Duscur, which he makes a point to say on multiple occasions. No, the Empire was not invading the Kingdom because Edelgard wanted to invade. She's invading because the Kingdom not only harbored the one they are at war with, but allied with them. So yeah, Dimitri made his choice, and brought war to his own nation. 

Edelgard also explicitly states that the Empire is going to war against the Church of Seiros. Never once does Edelgard state that she's going to war against the Kingdom or Alliance. 

Also, yes. I KNOW that Dedue handed the Crest Stones to the soldiers behind Dimitri's back. But this was done because Dimitri's own vendetta against Edelgard poisoned Dedue (and Sylvain), that they wanted to help Dimitri in any way, to the point that they would commit such atrocity. It's still because of Dimitri that the soldiers turned into monsters. 

This is the only route we see of Dimitri where he doesn't get killed off screen, and we see how messed up he is without Byleth. He doesn't need to be a "murder hobo" to display how messed up he is. 

Even more is how he actually tried to deceive Rhea and use her. He told Rhea that he would meet the Imperial army and Rhea was to flank. But during the time, he confessed he intended for the Empire and Rhea to fight first, so in other words, he intended to be the one to flank Edelgard, and wanted to use Rhea as bait. But the rain ruined his plan before it could happen. 

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2 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

He caused the war to enter Faerghus territory by offering asylum to and later allying with the church in CF. Edelgard's goal has always been to take out the church first and foremost, with unifying Fodlan as a secondary objective at best. I'm not saying he's wrong for doing so, but you also have to acknowledge that he did end up causing the war to enter his homeland.

The problem with your argument there is that she also goes after the Leicester Alliance which doesn't. Also we're never given nothing of a indication that Edelgard has talked to sending Dimitri a letter about handing over Rhea for such and such crimes. Dimitri is doing what all his predecessors would have done because from what he knows Rhea and the church people are in danger for something they may or may not have done. Also when did it become wrong for the nation being attacked to defend itself?

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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah, gonna have to burst your bubble on this, but the narration treats it as a historical moment, like a historian does.

The truth is that the EMpire never once attacked either the Kingdom or the Alliance. This is due to how in Chapter 13, an NPC and Hubert both point out that the Empire never once fought the Alliance in the entirety of the five years they've been at war. 

The only reason that they are at war against the Kingdom is because Dimitri allied himself with the Church, thus making his nation enter the war. He chose to enter the war, and all of that is because he wanted revenge on Edelgard for Duscur, which he makes a point to say on multiple occasions. No, the Empire was not invading the Kingdom because Edelgard wanted to invade. She's invading because the Kingdom not only harbored the one they are at war with, but allied with them. So yeah, Dimitri made his choice, and brought war to his own nation. 

Edelgard also explicitly states that the Empire is going to war against the Church of Seiros. Never once does Edelgard state that she's going to war against the Kingdom or Alliance. 

Also, yes. I KNOW that Dedue handed the Crest Stones to the soldiers behind Dimitri's back. But this was done because Dimitri's own vendetta against Edelgard poisoned Dedue (and Sylvain), that they wanted to help Dimitri in any way, to the point that they would commit such atrocity. It's still because of Dimitri that the soldiers turned into monsters. 

This is the only route we see of Dimitri where he doesn't get killed off screen, and we see how messed up he is without Byleth. He doesn't need to be a "murder hobo" to display how messed up he is. 

Even more is how he actually tried to deceive Rhea and use her. He told Rhea that he would meet the Imperial army and Rhea was to flank. But during the time, he confessed he intended for the Empire and Rhea to fight first, so in other words, he intended to be the one to flank Edelgard, and wanted to use Rhea as bait. But the rain ruined his plan before it could happen. 

FTR Sylvain is there for vengeance himself irrespective of Dimitri's own grudge against Edelgard, he specifically has his lines change if Ingrid and Felix die at Arianrhod as well as having specific lines if Dimitri dies before he does at Tailtean. Otherwise he's simply there to be leading the Gautier troops as a show of loyalty, given y'know, the empire is still invading.

As for the crest stones thing; I always imagined that THAT was reactive to what happened at Arianrhod, given it was completely destroyed by an unknown power instead of simply taken. Incidentally Rhea is utterly unsurprised in any way upon enterring the map if there are crest beasts, so I think she was the one who suggested it in the first place. This IS an extrapolation though, so grain of salt 'n all.

Also maybe not use messed up to refer to him like that? I've heard that term used wrt to mentally ill(and he definitely is) people a bit too much, especially when obsessive gets the job done too.

 

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Dimitri and Rhea team up for a revenge joyride, not because he's being a nice guy and doing what anyone else would do. I will say CF Dimitri does seem a lot less boar-like than Edelgard and Hubert imply in that story. They dismiss him as an unhinged beast because he doesn't insist on a 100% honorable battle where his forces are clearly at an disadvantage, but he... doesn't actually charge at them in a frothing rage or anything. He only seems to go full boar when you kill Dedue and get the execution scene, and by then he's kind of done for so why not?

 

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15 minutes ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

The problem with your argument there is that she also goes after the Leicester Alliance which doesn't. Also we're never given nothing of a indication that Edelgard has talked to sending Dimitri a letter about handing over Rhea for such and such crimes. Dimitri is doing what all his predecessors would have done because from what he knows Rhea and the church people are in danger for something they may or may not have done. Also when did it become wrong for the nation being attacked to defend itself?

He's in it for revenge on Edelgard personally, that is a fact. He is also protecting his country from an invading force and working with a historical ally, also a fact, but let's not act like his motivations are entirely selfless.

As far as we know we have no idea if Edelgard has tried to negotiate with the Kingdom, although Sylvain -does- state that he thinks a peaceful resolution would not work out because of Edelgard/Hubert. He is also an inherently biased source given he grew up in the Kingdom himself though.

I didn't say it was wrong for them to defend themselves, I'm saying that -he- also inherently brought the war onto the Kingdom.

6 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Dimitri and Rhea team up for a revenge joyride, not because he's being a nice guy and doing what anyone else would do. I will say CF Dimitri does seem a lot less boar-like than Edelgard and Hubert imply in that story. They dismiss him as an unhinged beast because he doesn't insist on a 100% honorable battle where his forces are clearly at an disadvantage, but he... doesn't actually charge at them in a frothing rage or anything. He only seems to go full boar when you kill Dedue and get the execution scene, and by then he's kind of done for so why not?

 

CF Dimitri is basically WC Dimitri if his mask wasn't -forced- to break. He's a lot calmer since he wasn't forced through the absolute bullshit he deals with in other routes, so I think that while still there, the 'boar' aspect of his character is a lot more refined. Heck to see it at all, Dedue has to turn into a literal monster and die, which is consistent with how Dedue -dying for him- is part of what ends up breaking him.

Edited by Axel987

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19 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The truth is that the EMpire never once attacked either the Kingdom or the Alliance. This is due to how in Chapter 13, an NPC and Hubert both point out that the Empire never once fought the Alliance in the entirety of the five years they've been at war. 

Quote

Hubert: Allow me to brief you on the details of our situation. The Empire firmly controls the western portion of Faerghus. However, the central and eastern regions continue to put up heavy resistance. The strongholds in these regions are Arianrhod, the Fortress City, and Fhirdiad, the Kingdom Capital. We cannot control Faerghus until we have taken both of these cities.

He's very clear that Imperial army has entered Faerghus and was resisted by Kingdom defenders, he also literally said they have occupied west Faerghus.

I am not sure how you can interpret as empire never once attacked the kingdom.

Quote

Soldier: There were clashes with the Kingdom army near the western front, but this is the first time the Alliance army has had an honest-to-goodness fight. I hear their leader's pretty competent, but the Alliance army is pretty tough too.

Then there is the solider you mentioned, again, he didn't say they never attacked, he only said this was the first head on battle.

Edited by Timlugia

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17 minutes ago, Crysta said:

I'm not arguing that they see no benefit in investigating them, particularly in anticipation of fighting them after the war, but I am arguing against that investigation was the primary intent all along. It's secondary. Their primary use is their power, which they're willing to supply because they have a mutual enemy. Hubert admits that it took some convincing on his behalf to make Edelgard agree to the arrangement, but he makes it clear it was a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" arrangement.

Thales requests the Death Knight, she agrees to it. He did not demand she give him to him, ironically enough.

The Agarthans have extensively infiltrated the Empire and Kingdom prior to her ascending to the throne, and it would be difficult to just outright uproot them, but she does decide to use them for her own ends first. Being in such close proximity with them does give her and Hubert more opportunities to track their movements, but in-game it's made pretty clear that it's still limited even so. Thales keeps his plans under wraps and mostly succeeds.

I thought it was unlikely that Thales was appointed regent because he left to the Kingdom, but the Insurrection may have changed that. Touche', I guess. I probably still wouldn't have let him have Hyrm, though, assuming there were other capable candidates available that weren't... blatantly evil.

Exactly. As you said, they have extensive connections. They are referred to as those who slither in the dark. What she knows is that they have power that can be used, but knows that they are also dangerous. So yeah, use them, but also investigate as much as you can about them. It'll benefit for the coming conflict after all. Is it the absolute best choice? Who knows, since Edelgard was not in the best of positions when she was working with them. 

Arundel getting Hrym seems only to be the case in non-CF routes. It's likely Edelgard didn't have much choice. Non-CF routes has the war be much more chaotic and beyond Edelgard's control than in CF. It's interesting how the one route where the war is more at a stalemate is where Edelgard is in control. But the other routes where she's mostly winning the war is the ones that she's losing more control. 

The irony is that sometimes the best way to win is not to keep winning. 

9 minutes ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

The problem with your argument there is that she also goes after the Leicester Alliance which doesn't. Also we're never given nothing of a indication that Edelgard has talked to sending Dimitri a letter about handing over Rhea for such and such crimes. Dimitri is doing what all his predecessors would have done because from what he knows Rhea and the church people are in danger for something they may or may not have done. Also when did it become wrong for the nation being attacked to defend itself?

Edelgard sent manifestos in Crimson Flower, and as mentioned above, Edelgard left the Alliance alone for five years. Only attacks now because it's a situation where she needed reinforcements from the Alliance. 

Claude has been meddling with her trying to gain the Imperial supporters of the Alliance, thus standing in opposition of the Empire, so she attacks to prevent Claude from meddling anymore. Turns out, she was right to attack when she did, since he was planning his own attack with Almyrans. 

In CF, she's at her best and doesn't try to use force in the war always, but tries forms of diplomacy. Hence why she sends manifestos and tries to win allies over, rather than having to fight them, which is why she asked if they could convince House Rowe so they don't have to fight him. She tried to win over the help of the noble houses in the Alliance, but Claude kept meddling until the situation was at a point that Edelgard could not wait any longer.

Yeah, she does ultimately invade the Alliance. But she was left with no choice since Claude was not going to let Edelgard get any stronger. As he admitted, he wanted to be Fodlan's supreme ruler himself. 

5 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

FTR Sylvain is there for vengeance himself irrespective of Dimitri's own grudge against Edelgard, he specifically has his lines change if Ingrid and Felix die at Arianrhod as well as having specific lines if Dimitri dies before he does at Tailtean. Otherwise he's simply there to be leading the Gautier troops as a show of loyalty, given y'know, the empire is still invading.

As for the crest stones thing; I always imagined that THAT was reactive to what happened at Arianrhod, given it was completely destroyed by an unknown power instead of simply taken. Incidentally Rhea is utterly unsurprised in any way upon enterring the map if there are crest beasts, so I think she was the one who suggested it in the first place. This IS an extrapolation though, so grain of salt 'n all.

Also maybe not use messed up to refer to him like that? I've heard that term used wrt to mentally ill(and he definitely is) people a bit too much, especially when obsessive gets the job done too.
 

He says for revenge, but not once was it mentioned for Ingrid, Felix, or even Arianrhod. He says revenge even if Ingrid and Felix are recruited.

I dunno if Arianrhod is why they used the Crest Stones, since it's never once brought up in conversation with anyone. Seems like the Kingdom is largely unaware of what transpired there in regards to the javelins of light. 

I mean, if I wanna make it clear, Dimitri is still insane by his obsession with revenge, but just not to the extent he is in the other routes.

9 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Dimitri and Rhea team up for a revenge joyride, not because he's being a nice guy and doing what anyone else would do. I will say CF Dimitri does seem a lot less boar-like than Edelgard and Hubert imply in that story. They dismiss him as an unhinged beast because he doesn't insist on a 100% honorable battle where his forces are clearly at an disadvantage, but he... doesn't actually charge at them in a frothing rage or anything. He only seems to go full boar when you kill Dedue and get the execution scene, and by then he's kind of done for so why not?

They don't dismiss him as a beast or even refer to him as one. They only comment that Dimitri has changed from how he once used to be, and remark that he no longer fights fairly, and that he's willing to do almost anything apart from offering his friends. But if anything, it's more sympathetic than mocking there. 

3 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

He's very clear that Imperial army has entered Faerghus and was resisted by Kingdom defenders.

I am not sure how you can interpret as empire never once attacked the kingdom.

Because by that point, the Kingdom has allied with the Church. Again, if you not only harbor the ones that the Empire is at war against, but ally with them, then you invite the Empire to launch an invasion. But the scene he's presenting is that the Empire attacked the Alliance and Kingdom at the same time as Garreg Mach, when that is false.

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8 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

CF Dimitri is basically WC Dimitri if his mask wasn't -forced- to break. He's a lot calmer since he wasn't forced through the absolute bullshit he deals with in other routes, so I think that while still there, the 'boar' aspect of his character is a lot more refined. Heck to see it at all, Dedue has to turn into a literal monster and die, which is consistent with how Dedue -dying for him- is part of what ends up breaking him.

I think it has more to do with the Cornelia coup not occurring and Dimitri not being forced to flee from his own Kingdom and being isolated for five years, honestly. It's clear he hasn't completely foregone his obligations, friends, and empathy because his support system was still there in those five years.

When he finally gets it back in AM the narrative completely ignores that support system until the support conversations are unlocked after Rodrigue dies and it's kind of like, uh, what was stopping you guys from saying all this before it would have been awfully helpful.

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15 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The only reason that they are at war against the Kingdom is because Dimitri allied himself with the Church, thus making his nation enter the war. He chose to enter the war, and all of that is because he wanted revenge on Edelgard for Duscur, which he makes a point to say on multiple occasions. No, the Empire was not invading the Kingdom because Edelgard wanted to invade. She's invading because the Kingdom not only harbored the one they are at war with, but allied with them. So yeah, Dimitri made his choice, and brought war to his own nation

I don't think that wording is entirely fair - Dimitri makes a choice that invites war, sure, but Edelgard still made the choice to invade. Dimitri could argue that he's harboring a victim of aggression - it was the Empire, after all, that launched the first strike against the Church. To not harbor Rhea would be to allow the Empire's agression (which Dimitri, and much of the Kingdom, views as wrong) to go unchecked. Obviously Edelgard has her reasons for starting the war, but she's at least as much to blame for war entering the Kingdom as Dimitri is.

21 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Also, yes. I KNOW that Dedue handed the Crest Stones to the soldiers behind Dimitri's back. But this was done because Dimitri's own vendetta against Edelgard poisoned Dedue (and Sylvain), that they wanted to help Dimitri in any way, to the point that they would commit such atrocity. It's still because of Dimitri that the soldiers turned into monsters. 

It's a recurring question - is a politician responsible for the behavior of their supporters? I think the answer is situational, and depends on whether a leader expresses approval. In the case of using Crest Stones, Dimitri clearly does not.

Dedue was already fiercely loyal to Dimitri - if he was "poisoned" (an unfair wording that disrespects Dedue's own agency, IMO), then it was well before the timeskip. Consider his C-support with Felix, where he says he would kill even children for His Highness.

Not sure what you're referring to with Sylvain, but he's empowered to choose between right and wrong for himself, too. Even if he doesn't totally agree with Dimitri, he thinks fighting for him is what's best for the Kingdom.

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9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

They don't dismiss him as a beast or even refer to him as one. They only comment that Dimitri has changed from how he once used to be, and remark that he no longer fights fairly, and that he's willing to do almost anything apart from offering his friends. But if anything, it's more sympathetic than mocking there. 

Because by that point, the Kingdom has allied with the Church. Again, if you not only harbor the ones that the Empire is at war against, but ally with them, then you invite the Empire to launch an invasion. But the scene he's presenting is that the Empire attacked the Alliance and Kingdom at the same time as Garreg Mach, when that is false.

It's not the exact wording, but this assessment seems... overly generous, again. She later calls him the King of Delusion and implies he was no longer a "normal human". I'm not even sure WTF she means by that lol: did she think he was inhaling crest stones?

Edited by Crysta

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1 minute ago, Crysta said:

I think it has more to do with the Cornelia coup not occurring and Dimitri not being forced to flee from his own Kingdom and being isolated for five years, honestly. It's clear he hasn't completely foregone his obligations, friends, and empathy because his support system was still there in those five years.

When he finally gets it back in AM the narrative completely ignores that support system until the support conversations are unlocked after Rodrigue dies and it's kind of like, uh, what was stopping you guys from saying all this before it would have been awfully helpful.

I mean yeah, the coup is what I meant with absolute bullshit haha, my bad if I didn't make that clear.

5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

He says for revenge, but not once was it mentioned for Ingrid, Felix, or even Arianrhod. He says revenge even if Ingrid and Felix are recruited.

I dunno if Arianrhod is why they used the Crest Stones, since it's never once brought up in conversation with anyone. Seems like the Kingdom is largely unaware of what transpired there in regards to the javelins of light. 

I mean, if I wanna make it clear, Dimitri is still insane by his obsession with revenge, but just not to the extent he is in the other routes.

 

The lines straight up change if Ingrid and Felix die at Arianrhod as I said. He's out for revenge because of them, which the original japanese lines make relatively more clear.

 

The Crest Stones thing never gets explained at all, not in terms of where they came from or why they're being used so at the end of the day the -reasoning- is up in the air. They were used which is still pretty shitty yeah.

I get what you mean yeah.

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14 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

He's in it for revenge on Edelgard personally, that is a fact. He is also protecting his country from an invading force and working with a historical ally, also a fact, but let's not act like his motivations are entirely selfless.

As far as we know we have no idea if Edelgard has tried to negotiate with the Kingdom, although Sylvain -does- state that he thinks a peaceful resolution would not work out because of Edelgard/Hubert. He is also an inherently biased source given he grew up in the Kingdom himself though.

I didn't say it was wrong for them to defend themselves, I'm saying that -he- also inherently brought the war onto the Kingdom.

CF Dimitri is basically WC Dimitri if his mask wasn't -forced- to break. He's a lot calmer since he wasn't forced through the absolute bullshit he deals with in other routes, so I think that while still there, the 'boar' aspect of his character is a lot more refined. Heck to see it at all, Dedue has to turn into a literal monster and die, which is consistent with how Dedue -dying for him- is part of what ends up breaking him.

As I just stated both of them coincide but he doesn't lose his responsibilities to the crown as he did in other routes where he's unhinged to the point that he is reckless with his life and dies in one because of it and that's why Edelgard's statement of him losing his sight as king is flat out wrong. 

Yes we don't know, but in not attempting to do so doesn't help put her in a good light and that doesn't invalidate Sylvain's point.

So you agree that he and the rest of the kingdom weren't wrong to defend himself? But he's to blame for why the kingdom ends up the way it does despite the fact again he's doing what all of his predecessors would have done given the agreement between the kingdom and the church which he is again following his responsibilities. Edelgard still made a choice to attack and Faergus is defending itself rightfully so, Edelgard had a choice and she didn't want to keep with this stalemate as she wanted Rhea no matter who she had to go through.

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18 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I don't think that wording is entirely fair - Dimitri makes a choice that invites war, sure, but Edelgard still made the choice to invade. Dimitri could argue that he's harboring a victim of aggression - it was the Empire, after all, that launched the first strike against the Church. To not harbor Rhea would be to allow the Empire's agression (which Dimitri, and much of the Kingdom, views as wrong) to go unchecked. Obviously Edelgard has her reasons for starting the war, but she's at least as much to blame for war entering the Kingdom as Dimitri is.

On that I can agree with but just because the invitation is open doesn't mean you take it as Edelgard ends up being the aggressor which doesn't paint a pretty picture for how the rest of the world would see it.

Edited by AbsoluteZer0Nova

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7 minutes ago, Crysta said:

I think it has more to do with the Cornelia coup not occurring and Dimitri not being forced to flee from his own Kingdom and being isolated for five years, honestly. It's clear he hasn't completely foregone his obligations, friends, and empathy because his support system was still there in those five years.

When he finally gets it back in AM the narrative completely ignores that support system until the support conversations are unlocked after Rodrigue dies and it's kind of like, uh, what was stopping you guys from saying all this before it would have been awfully helpful.

Actually can we discuss this in regards to how Dimitri himself isolated himself from his own friends overall? He never met up with Ingrid, Felix, and Sylvain after the Tragedy of Duscur and mostly just spent time alone. I always felt like this is why he became so insane and obsessed with revenge. He was never able to confide in his friends with anything. 

In a way, EVERY lord has some had to deal with the feeling of isolation, including Rhea. 

They were all isolated and unable to confide in others. It's what made them grow so distrustful. Not JUST because of their trauma, but the isolation they had to endure with no one to open up to. 

5 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I don't think that wording is entirely fair - Dimitri makes a choice that invites war, sure, but Edelgard still made the choice to invade. Dimitri could argue that he's harboring a victim of aggression - it was the Empire, after all, that launched the first strike against the Church. To not harbor Rhea would be to allow the Empire's agression (which Dimitri, and much of the Kingdom, views as wrong) to go unchecked. Obviously Edelgard has her reasons for starting the war, but she's at least as much to blame for war entering the Kingdom as Dimitri is.

The problem with that is that Edelgard had already sent manifestos to every lord in Fodlan. Dimitri isn't unaware of her reasons for fighting this war. But Dimitri didn't care about her reasons. She was the one he believed was behind Duscur. 

And yes, Edelgard did make the choice to invade. Just as she did make the choice to invade the Alliance in the end when push came to shove. She's resolved to fight the others and accepted this from the beginning if it comes to.

5 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

It's a recurring question - is a politician responsible for the behavior of their supporters? I think the answer is situational, and depends on whether a leader expresses approval. In the case of using Crest Stones, Dimitri clearly does not.

Dedue was already fiercely loyal to Dimitri - if he was "poisoned" (an unfair wording that disrespects Dedue's own agency, IMO), then it was well before the timeskip. Consider his C-support with Felix, where he says he would kill even children for His Highness.

Not sure what you're referring to with Sylvain, but he's empowered to choose between right and wrong for himself, too. Even if he doesn't totally agree with Dimitri, he thinks fighting for him is what's best for the Kingdom.

Okay, I take that back. Dedue's always been like he was. He stated to Felix in their C support that Dedue would do anything, even kill children, for Dimitri. So giving Crests Stones to the soldiers is entirely within his character. Sylvain, though, that's a different case, cause he should be aware of what happened to his brother, and now he's making the soldiers under him go through the same thing. However, the responsibility of the soldiers actions, especially during wartime, is the leader's responsibility. So yes, in this case, the acts of turning soldiers into Crests Beasts can be placed under Dimitri's responsibility. His own obsession that made him willing to do almost anything made his soldiers believe in the same way, because the people look up to Dimitri. 

7 minutes ago, Crysta said:

It's not the exact wording, but this assessment seems... overly generous, again. She later calls him the King of Delusion and implies he was no longer a "normal human". I'm not even sure WTF she means by that lol: did she think he was inhaling crest stones?

I mean, he kind of is. He's a King that is under the delusion that Edelgard is behind Duscur. 

7 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

The lines straight up change if Ingrid and Felix die at Arianrhod as I said. He's out for revenge because of them, which the original japanese lines make relatively more clear.

Wait... hold up... is this purely the JP version? I've played Chapter 17 a dozen times and never once did I hear this. Like, what? 

8 minutes ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

As I just stated both of them coincide but he doesn't lose his responsibilities to the crown as he did in other routes where he's unhinged to the point that he is reckless with his life and dies in one because of it and that's why Edelgard's statement of him losing his sight as king is flat out wrong. 

Yes we don't know, but in not attempting to do so doesn't help put her in a good light and that doesn't invalidate Sylvain's point.

Manifestos. Edelgard explicitly stated that she is sending out her manifestos, exposing the dark side of the Church and the foul practices of the Kingdom and Alliance to every noble in the continent. Meaning that Dimitri KNOWS why Edelgard is going to this war. He knows, but he does not for her reasons. He still aided her enemy and thus, that's an act of war that invites war. Dimitri makes it clear that he's not interested in anything in this war other than to kill Edelgard. 

10 minutes ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

So you agree that he and the rest of the kingdom weren't wrong to defend himself? But he's to blame for why the kingdom ends up the way it does despite the fact again he's doing what all of his predecessors would have done given the agreement between the kingdom and the church which he is again following his responsibilities. Edelgard still made a choice to attack and Faergus is defending itself rightfully so, Edelgard had a choice and she didn't want to keep with this stalemate as she wanted Rhea no matter who she had to go through.

I'm not saying that he's wrong to defend himself, but he's the one that invited war in the first place. He had his choice, just as many noble houses in the Kingdom actually sided with Edelgard, indicated by several quotes in CF. If Dimitri chose to ally with the Church in the war against Faerghus, then DImitri took his stance in the war.

That's just it. That's how war is. 

Edelgard already started the war and made her choice. But it was entirely in Dimitri's choice NOT to aid the Church and instead remain neutral. But because he chose to get involved, his people and his nation suffered as a result. Especially since his decision to ally with Rhea resulted in Rhea going so insane that she set fire to the capital. 

Choices have consequences. Edelgard's made her choice long before already, but Dimitri made his choice and ultimately in CF chose to fight a war. He made his choice, and thus, he suffered the consequences. And all of this because he wanted revenge. 

It's not like AM Dimitri. This is not the Dimitri that received character growth and learned valuable lessons. 

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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Actually can we discuss this in regards to how Dimitri himself isolated himself from his own friends overall? He never met up with Ingrid, Felix, and Sylvain after the Tragedy of Duscur and mostly just spent time alone. I always felt like this is why he became so insane and obsessed with revenge. He was never able to confide in his friends with anything. 

In a way, EVERY lord has some had to deal with the feeling of isolation, including Rhea. 

They were all isolated and unable to confide in others. It's what made them grow so distrustful. Not JUST because of their trauma, but the isolation they had to endure with no one to open up to.

He inevitably does reconnect with them at the Monastery so idk... I'm not sure if he's actually inclined to push them away so much as he's just not inclined to reach out to them for therapy. In AM, he does outright rebuff their concerns and puts them down, which just worsens the whole problem.

But his friends are also the ones who know him best and should feel obligated, as friends, to tell him what he may not like to hear. Not Byleth. They do that only after Rodrigue dies.

CF Blue Lions are better friends than AM Blue Lions

The "King of Delusion" moniker feels far less earned in CF, the only time when it's used, than it does in the other routes. I don't think Dimitri being angry at Edelgard for willingly working with the killers of his family is actually all that deluded from his viewpoint - just thinking she herself personally is responsible is - and I think CF Dimitri is the state that makes the most sense for him to revert to after Rodrigue's sacrifice tbh. Not the one that's super eager to atone (he should want to, but wow does he lean so heavily into it) and wants to forgive Edelgard because it's the right thing to do.

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24 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Wait... hold up... is this purely the JP version? I've played Chapter 17 a dozen times and never once did I hear this. Like, what?

Nope, as seen in the thread there's english versions for it too, I just mentioned the JP version because the delivery and his defeat dialogue makes it clearer who he's referring to. The lines simply don't play out that way if you do not recruit Ingrid & Felix, so that might be why? The distinction also exists with Dimitri's lines in the meeting with Rhea at Fhirdiad too; he explicitly mentions Rodrigue, Ingrid and Felix if they fall there.

Incidentally in the JP version Dimitri's lines in part 2 don't tend to be quite nearly as aggressive as his ENG counterpart(He's subject to a decent bit of mistranslations himself, although not to the extent of Edelgard); a good example is his dialogue at reunion of dawn for one;

Quote

Actually can we discuss this in regards to how Dimitri himself isolated himself from his own friends overall? He never met up with Ingrid, Felix, and Sylvain after the Tragedy of Duscur and mostly just spent time alone. I always felt like this is why he became so insane and obsessed with revenge. He was never able to confide in his friends with anything. 

In a way, EVERY lord has some had to deal with the feeling of isolation, including Rhea. 

They were all isolated and unable to confide in others. It's what made them grow so distrustful. Not JUST because of their trauma, but the isolation they had to endure with no one to open up to. 

Considering how he thinks you're an imperial spy/assassin(rather from the dukedom more likely) when you first talk to him in part 2, it's pretty clear he was constantly on the run which is why he is so paranoid for most of the first half of AM. The coup, Dedue's perceived death and the isolation from his entire support network is what led to that, not a single event in -heh- isolation. Much like Edelgard he feels like he has no choice -but- to isolate himself, so that is an interesting comparison indeed.

Edited by Axel987

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Just now, Crysta said:

He inevitably does reconnect with them at the Monastery so idk... I'm not sure if he's actually inclined to push them away so much as he's just not inclined to reach out to them for therapy. In AM, he does outright rebuff their concerns and puts them down, which just worsens the whole problem.

But his friends are also the ones who know him best and should feel obligated, as friends, to tell him what he may not like to hear. Not Byleth. They do that only after Rodrigue dies.

CF Blue Lions are better friends than AM Blue Lions

The "King of Delusion" moniker feels far less earned in CF, the only time when it's used, than it does in the other routes. I don't think Dimitri being angry at Edelgard for willingly working with the killers of his family is actually all that deluded from his viewpoint - just thinking she herself personally is responsible is - and I think CF Dimitri is the state that makes the most sense for him to revert to after Rodrigue's sacrifice tbh. Not the one that's super eager to atone (he should want to, but wow does he lean so heavily into it) and wants to forgive Edelgard because it's the right thing to do.

Not really reconnect. It's one thing to interact, but Dimitri is simply putting up a facade with them, but overall being unwilling to be honest about how things are for him or anything. There are ways of pushing people away without being direct, and that was how Dimitri handled it. It's why I like how Dimitri is handled in Part 1. It's my most favorite aspect of the BL route in how they handle Dimitri's PTSD. Dimitri puts on this facade, but hides the demon within. 

No, I would say that it's still very much earned. Keep in mind that Dimitri is in this war, being at war with Edelgard for FIVE years. Unlike the other routes, where Dimitri only appears now, this is a Dimitri that's been actively going against Edelgard in this war. All for a revenge that was entirely misguided. So I would say that the moniker is actually far more earned here than the other routes. 

The problem is that Dimitri entirely believes that Edelgard is the one behind Duscur. Not about her being involved with the actual criminals or holding some responsibility. No, she bears no responsibility. But to Dimitri, she does, because he believes that she's responsible. In AM, he believed that she was behind it, but once he started to snap out of his issues and actually start to fight his own madness, only then did Dimitri learn the truth, that it was Patricia that was behind it, and he had to struggle with that knowledge. 

It's unlikely that Dimitri would have believed Edelgard was not responsible even if she told him. His obsession would not allow him to believe it. He had to let go of his obsession before he was finally able to start listening to reason. 

10 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

Nope, as seen in the thread there's english versions for it too. The lines simply don't play out that way if you do not recruit Ingrid & Felix, so that might be why? The distinction also exists with Dimitri's lines in the meeting with Rhea at Fhirdiad too; he explicitly mentions Rodrigue, Ingrid and Felix if they fall there.

Right, the latter part I am aware of, but not this former part. Interesting. Thanks.

11 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

Considering how he thinks you're an imperial spy/assassin(rather from the dukedom more likely) when you first talk to him in part 2, it's pretty clear he was constantly on the run which is why he is so paranoid for most of the first half of AM. The coup, Dedue's perceived death and the isolation from his entire support network is what led to that, not a single event in -heh- isolation. Much like Edelgard he feels like he has no choice -but- to isolate himself, so that is an interesting comparison indeed.

I'm referring to before Part 1. Nothing about part 2. After the Tragedy of Duscur, Dimitri was isolated from his friends. He was basically isolated and just holding that trauma inside him without being able to talk about it with anyone. No one to confide with emotionally. 

As for Edelgard, same case for her, only hers is that she has no friends, her family is all but dead, and her own uncle was replaced by a moleman. Hard to trust others when your own family betrays you.

Rhea's been isolated for countless years since Seteth and Flayn only arrived roughly 16 years before 3H started. And we see how Rhea is withholding a lot of info from even them.

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