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omegaxis1

The True Tragedy of Three Houses

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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

No, I would say that it's still very much earned. Keep in mind that Dimitri is in this war, being at war with Edelgard for FIVE years. Unlike the other routes, where Dimitri only appears now, this is a Dimitri that's been actively going against Edelgard in this war. All for a revenge that was entirely misguided. So I would say that the moniker is actually far more earned here than the other routes. 

It's a defensive five year war that also happens to be spearheaded by the person who he feels wronged him, who is allied with individuals who are indeed responsible for his family's death. He doesn't deserve the moniker for being involved in war. His hands aren't any more dirty than Edelgard's, in that respect, and he hasn't killed the kids in that route. You can argue he's endangering his friends, but they have just as much agency as Edelgard's allies when they fight for her.

It feels like you're trying to attach the same amount of single-minded self-destructive recklessness to CF Dimitri that he has in AM - the traits which typically personify Boar Dimitri - which simply do not appear with the same amount intensity in CF. And you don't have to.

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2 minutes ago, Crysta said:

It's a defensive five year war that also happens to be spearheaded by the person who he feels wronged him, who is allied with individuals who are indeed responsible for his family's death. He doesn't deserve the moniker for being involved in war. His hands aren't any more dirty than Edelgard's, in that respect, and he hasn't killed the kids in that route. You can argue he's endangering his friends, but they have just as much agency as Edelgard's allies when they fight for her.

It feels like you're trying to attach the same amount of single-minded self-destructive recklessness to CF Dimitri that he has in AM - the traits which typically personify Boar Dimitri - which simply do not appear with the same amount intensity in CF. And you don't have to.

It's cause he's following a belief that is delusional. Cause he's in this for revenge. No other reason. It's not the type of reasons he wanted to stop Edelgard in the later half of Azure Moon. In this route, Dimitri has to have gotten Edelgard's manifesto. It's worse with how Dimitri tries to pull off another philosophical argument where Edelgard is trying to conquer and kill, but the only reason this is happening, why Edelgard is conquering and killing is because Dimitri invited that war by allying with Rhea. The "no u" arguments gets criticized, but it's basically her calling out if fighting against her in the first place was even worth it then for him. 

It is ultimately self-destructive behavior. Dimitri simply not expressing his madness in CF doesn't change that he's not. It's basically a polished and refined madness of his part 1 insanity. 

Only it can be considered worse in some aspect as now he's willing to deceive people. 

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31 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The problem with that is that Edelgard had already sent manifestos to every lord in Fodlan. Dimitri isn't unaware of her reasons for fighting this war. But Dimitri didn't care about her reasons. She was the one he believed was behind Duscur. 

Edelgard's manifesto is the justification she presents for the war, but even she doesn't expect most of its recipients to agree with her, or support the war. A (hypothetical) fully rational King of Faerghus could acknowledge Edelgard's beliefs, while also considering them to be wrong, and her actions based on said beliefs to be unjust. Dimitri is motivated in large part by revenge, but that doesn't inherently mean he's making the wrong decision in allying with Rhea - either ethically, or practically.

40 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Sylvain, though, that's a different case, cause he should be aware of what happened to his brother, and now he's making the soldiers under him go through the same thing. However, the responsibility of the soldiers actions, especially during wartime, is the leader's responsibility. So yes, in this case, the acts of turning soldiers into Crests Beasts can be placed under Dimitri's responsibility. His own obsession that made him willing to do almost anything made his soldiers believe in the same way, because the people look up to Dimitri. 

Re: Sylvain, that's interesting to hear - I was unaware, since I had recruited Sylvain when I played CF. Still, I have to disagree - when a soldier acts against the expressed directions of their officer, even if professing a motivation by their officer's "spirit" or "commitment", the blame lies with the soldier. At worst, the officer can be considered lax in their discipline, or in guiding their subordinates. Sylvain fights the war for his own reasons, not because Dimitri compels him to. Like, if Ladislava plotted to blow up the Bridge of Myrrdin (motivated ny Edelgard's own die-hard commitment to her ideals, and to the Empire), despite Edelgard telling her "hey don't blow up this bridge", then I wouldn't hold Ladislava's unapproved actions against the Emperor.

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24 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I'm referring to before Part 1. Nothing about part 2. After the Tragedy of Duscur, Dimitri was isolated from his friends. He was basically isolated and just holding that trauma inside him without being able to talk about it with anyone. No one to confide with emotionally. 

As for Edelgard, same case for her, only hers is that she has no friends, her family is all but dead, and her own uncle was replaced by a moleman. Hard to trust others when your own family betrays you.

Rhea's been isolated for countless years since Seteth and Flayn only arrived roughly 16 years before 3H started. And we see how Rhea is withholding a lot of info from even them.

Ah, yeah. That part is rather interesting too, considering the following;

  • After the death of Lambert, the Kingdom had chaos and banditry pop up everywhere.
  • He believes the people of Duscur are entirely innocent for what happened that day and that the perpetrator was someone completely unrelated to them.
  • He is actively isolated from his friends like Sylvain, Ingrid and Felix for years, with Dedue being his only real companion, someone who he ends up having a mutually co-dependent relationship with.
  • That one twitter post explaining how the belief that those who die with lingering regrets are effectively stuck in hell, a belief traditionally held in eastern faerghus(which Fhirdiad is a part of) as per Annette's support with Claude.

He spends years in Fhirdiad, alone. Only one friend, basically no family left that he's close to(his relationship with his uncle is implied to be strained)and left with the knowledge that his people committed genocide. No matter what he did, no matter how hard he tried to stop them, they went and destroyed the people of Duscur for a crime they did not commit. His country is slowly going to shit under an inept leadership and he is raised with the expectation that -he- is going to fix it, one of his own personal goals is to clear the people of Duscur and make reparations to them, Sylvain thinks that things will get better after Dimitri takes the throne and Felix expresses similar sentiments.

The sheer amount of expectations on his shoulders in part 1 is immense and is probably -why- he bottles everything up so hard, even exemplified by how Felix reacts the ONE time he sees what he calls 'the boar'. He practically disowns and de-humanises Dimitri. At 15 years old. That kind of stuff has some seriously harmful effects to one's already worsening mental health.

He puts up a mask of ye' ol noble perfect prince because that is what he -has- to be. Anything less is unacceptable, anything less will have his friends hate him from his perspective. Hell, until very late into part 1, outside of confiding in Byleth he really tries to keep his quest for revenge to himself. Nobody else needs to involve themselves in his mess.

As much as I like him post character development, part 1 Dimitri has some seriously interesting build up as to how he gets the way he is that is.

 

Edited by Axel987

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7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

It's cause he's following a belief that is delusional. Cause he's in this for revenge. No other reason. It's not the type of reasons he wanted to stop Edelgard in the later half of Azure Moon. In this route, Dimitri has to have gotten Edelgard's manifesto. It's worse with how Dimitri tries to pull off another philosophical argument where Edelgard is trying to conquer and kill, but the only reason this is happening, why Edelgard is conquering and killing is because Dimitri invited that war by allying with Rhea. The "no u" arguments gets criticized, but it's basically her calling out if fighting against her in the first place was even worth it then for him. 

It is ultimately self-destructive behavior. Dimitri simply not expressing his madness in CF doesn't change that he's not. It's basically a polished and refined madness of his part 1 insanity. 

Only it can be considered worse in some aspect as now he's willing to deceive people.

I sincerely don't think wanting revenge alone is delusional. Seems like a pretty healthy response, honestly. Making Edelgard the centerpiece of the revenge quest is an illogical leap, is it really enough to call him inhuman for letting his anger and mental health issues lead him to illogical conclusions? That's also pretty damn human.

I could see it if he did use a crest stone and turn into a beast himself, but he doesn't.

When is he trying to deceive people?

Edited by Crysta

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2 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Edelgard's manifesto is the justification she presents for the war, but even she doesn't expect most of its recipients to agree with her, or support the war. A (hypothetical) fully rational King of Faerghus could acknowledge Edelgard's beliefs, while also considering them to be wrong, and her actions based on said beliefs to be unjust. Dimitri is motivated in large part by revenge, but that doesn't inherently mean he's making the wrong decision in allying with Rhea - either ethically, or practically.

The problem in that is how we have others tell us that Rhea has been acting very irrational, with her laughing and talking to herself all alone. In your hypothetical scenario, the king would consider that allying with Rhea is a mistake and she's clearly not in the right state of mind. So that would very much made fighting this war feel less practical and ethical even. 

Edelgard isn't optimistic. She's trying to make people start to go against principles that they've been raised by, so she won't believe that people will all be lining up to join her.

9 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Re: Sylvain, that's interesting to hear - I was unaware, since I had recruited Sylvain when I played CF. Still, I have to disagree - when a soldier acts against the expressed directions of their officer, even if professing a motivation by their officer's "spirit" or "commitment", the blame lies with the soldier. At worst, the officer can be considered lax in their discipline, or in guiding their subordinates. Sylvain fights the war for his own reasons, not because Dimitri compels him to. Like, if Ladislava plotted to blow up the Bridge of Myrrdin (motivated ny Edelgard's own die-hard commitment to her ideals, and to the Empire), despite Edelgard telling her "hey don't blow up this bridge", then I wouldn't hold Ladislava's unapproved actions against the Emperor.

I mean, the problem is that Dimitri is quick to accept the decision and allow the rest of the soldiers to keep turning into Crest Beasts one by one. Perhaps you can argue in regards to the first one, but every Crest Beast that appears after are on him.

9 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

He spends years in Fhirdiad, alone. Only one friend, basically no family left that he's close to(his relationship with his uncle is implied to be strained)and left with the knowledge that his people committed genocide. No matter what he did, no matter how hard he tried to stop them, they went and destroyed the people of Duscur for a crime they did not commit. His country is slowly going to shit under an inept leadership and he is raised with the expectation that -he- is going to fix it, one of his own personal goals is to clear the people of Duscur and make reparations to them, Sylvain thinks that things will get better after Dimitri takes the throne and Felix expresses similar sentiments.

You gotta wonder how much Dedue was being his friend. Similar to how Edelgard is with Hubert, they try to keep a strict master-servant relationship, so Dimitri likely couldn't even confide Dedue in the emotional way he needed to, especially since Dedue didn't ever try to help Dimitri deal with his trauma. 

But overall, yeah. There is a LOT of burden that each character carries with their trauma and isolation. Look at Rhea. SHe's been alone for almost a thousand years since Seteth and Flayn only came back roughly 16 years before 3H. And we can tell how Rhea is so isolated that she's gotten used to withholding things from even them, despite how they are all she has left of family.

12 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

As much as I like him post character development, part 1 Dimitri has some seriously interesting build up as to how he gets the way he is that is.

Part 1 Dimitri is the Dimitri I always liked through and through. I have way too many issues with part 2 Dimitri.

11 minutes ago, Crysta said:

I sincerely don't think wanting revenge alone is delusional. Seems like a pretty healthy response, honestly. Making Edelgard the centerpiece of the revenge quest is an illogical leap, is it really enough to call him inhuman for letting his anger and mental health issues lead him to illogical conclusions? That's also pretty damn human.

I could see it if he did use a crest stone and turn into a beast himself, but he doesn't.

Because by definition, he is delusional. To be delusional means you have to be believing in something so strongly despite how it is objectively false. Dimitri, to his dying gasp, spits to Edelgard that he will kill her for the Tragedy of Duscur and how she was behind it. 

Saying that it's human doesn't change that his motivations that led him to each and every action he took in the past five years are nothing but lies. So yes, just because he's not as insane as in the other routes doesn't change that he's still very much delusional.

It's why Ferdinand constantly criticizes Dimitri, remarking that Dimitri is a failure of a King for allowing his emotions to dictate his actions. 

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Does Ferdinand do that in AM, when he's fighting for Dimitri? I didn't recruit him on my run, but I've been curious because I know he does that in VW.

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Just now, Crysta said:

Does Ferdinand do that in AM, when he's fighting for Dimitri? I didn't recruit him on my run, but I've been curious because I know he does that in VW.

Yes. He does criticize Dimitri. It's interesting how Ferdinand actually praises Edelgard quite often as a leader even when against her. There's one mistranslation though where he criticizes her in AM I believe, but in the JP version, he actually still praises her.

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Just now, omegaxis1 said:

Yes. He does criticize Dimitri. It's interesting how Ferdinand actually praises Edelgard quite often as a leader even when against her. There's one mistranslation though where he criticizes her in AM I believe, but in the JP version, he actually still praises her.

What's his reasoning for being there, then? Because Byleth is just that charismatic, again?

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1 minute ago, Crysta said:

What's his reasoning for being there, then? Because Byleth is just that charismatic, again?

I'll be honest, and some might think this is me being biased, but... Blue Lions, despite having the highest recruitment count... has arguably the weakest reasoning out of every route when it comes to recruitment reasoning. I especially cannot fathom the concept of any of the GD characters, especially Hilda, being recruitable there. 

This is just what I honestly felt like. 

 

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I don't really recall Ferdie being an Edelgard stan in VW. He levels the same criticism at her, and most of his melancholy seems to focus on the Adrestian Empire being gone more than anything else.

Edited by Crysta

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16 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

You gotta wonder how much Dedue was being his friend. Similar to how Edelgard is with Hubert, they try to keep a strict master-servant relationship, so Dimitri likely couldn't even confide Dedue in the emotional way he needed to, especially since Dedue didn't ever try to help Dimitri deal with his trauma. 

But overall, yeah. There is a LOT of burden that each character carries with their trauma and isolation. Look at Rhea. SHe's been alone for almost a thousand years since Seteth and Flayn only came back roughly 16 years before 3H. And we can tell how Rhea is so isolated that she's gotten used to withholding things from even them, despite how they are all she has left of family.

Part 1 Dimitri is the Dimitri I always liked through and through. I have way too many issues with part 2 Dimitri.

The relationship very much so started as them being friends, Dedue in part 2 also inherently states that he always knew about the 'part 2' Dimitri that he kept to himself. It turned into the vassal based relationship because it was kind of forced on Dedue by their culture, rather than Dimitri ever actually wanting it(It's stated pretty explicitly in their supports that he just wants Dedue to treat him as a friend again more than anything) It's just that Dedue couldn't really help that well because he has his own skeletons in his closet(Much like Dimitri, Dedue bottles up that rage real hard, arguably even harder.)which they ended up bonding over. Hence the co-dependent thing.

13 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Does Ferdinand do that in AM, when he's fighting for Dimitri? I didn't recruit him on my run, but I've been curious because I know he does that in VW.

Ferdinand pretty heavily criticises pre Chapter 18/19 Dimitri in AM but ends up changing his opinion of him over time, since he seems to identify most with his approach to things personally, once he actually moves past his obsessiveness.

9 minutes ago, Crysta said:

What's his reasoning for being there, then? Because Byleth is just that charismatic, again?

 

6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I'll be honest, and some might think this is me being biased, but... Blue Lions, despite having the highest recruitment count... has arguably the weakest reasoning out of every route when it comes to recruitment reasoning. I especially cannot fathom the concept of any of the GD characters, especially Hilda, being recruitable there. 

This is just what I honestly felt like.

I'll be frank; recruitment as a system in 3H is kinda half baked. There's some genuinely good bits with Ashe and Lorenz having to be re-recruited for example, but then there's also some characters being immediant parts of the BL army, rather than joining up overtime(which would make more sense. You recruit them in the academy and are re-added to your army as you progress.) There also should have been more characters that simply cannot be recruited if you take a certain path, much like Dedue and Hubert are. Like, I seriously don't see Lorenz joining the Blue Lions for example, or Ingrid the Black Eagles, in the war phases.

Edited by Axel987

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8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The problem in that is how we have others tell us that Rhea has been acting very irrational, with her laughing and talking to herself all alone. In your hypothetical scenario, the king would consider that allying with Rhea is a mistake and she's clearly not in the right state of mind. So that would very much made fighting this war feel less practical and ethical even. 

The counter-point, of course, is that Rhea's purported irrationality has been brought on by Edelgard's attack against the Church. Moreover, it's unclear that "laughing and talking to herself" actually cause her to make bad decisions, that harm the Church or the Kingdom. She goes off the deep end by chapter 18, admittedly, but that's after Dimitri can do anything about it.

Hypothetical-King would acknowledges that the Church is a longtime ally, in large part responsible for the power of Faerghus' throne. If the Church is defeated, then the Kingdom loses its support, putting them at risk from an emboldened Empire. The most otherwise I could see King Hypothetica doing, is requesting that Rhea step down, and let someone else (Seteth, for instance) take leadership of the Church.

18 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I mean, the problem is that Dimitri is quick to accept the decision and allow the rest of the soldiers to keep turning into Crest Beasts one by one. Perhaps you can argue in regards to the first one, but every Crest Beast that appears after are on him.

Full disclosure, I don't remember exactly how this plays out. We can agree, I think, that it'd be impractical for Dimitri to actually attack the soldiers who turn into Crest Beasts, when the Empire is there to kill them. I wouldn't say Dimitri ever "accepts" the decision, or "allows" his soldiers to do this - it's moreso that he's in a position where he can't reasonably stop them, so he tolerates it, with serious reluctance. But it's possible I'm misremembering his reaction.

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2 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

The relationship very much so started as them being friends, Dedue in part 2 also inherently states that he always knew about the 'part 2' Dimitri that he kept to himself. It turned into the vassal based relationship because it was kind of forced on Dedue by their culture, rather than Dimitri ever actually wanting it(It's stated pretty explicitly in their supports that he just wants Dedue to treat him as a friend again more than anything) It's just that Dedue couldn't really help that well because he has his own skeletons in his closet(Much like Dimitri, Dedue bottles up that rage real hard, arguably even harder.)which they ended up bonding over. Hence the co-dependent thing.

I know, hence why I compared it to Edelgard and Hubert. One side wants them to be friends, the other wants to be simply act like a vassal. Only at the end do they finally go with what their master wants.

3 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

I'll be frank; recruitment as a system in 3H is kinda half baked. There's some genuinely good bits with Ashe and Lorenz having to be re-recruited for example, but then there's also some characters being immediant parts of the BL army, rather than joining up overtime(which would make more sense. You recruit them in the academy and are re-added to your army as you progress.) There also should have been more characters that simply cannot be recruited if you take a certain path, much like Dedue and Hubert are. Like, I seriously don't see Lorenz joining the Blue Lions for example, or Ingrid the Black Eagles, in the war phases.

I honestly felt tat Ingrid worked well in CF, but mostly because one of my favorite lines from her came from her fighting Felix, in how she states that she's not a traditional knight, but a knight that believes in the ideals of the professor. And this to me, is actually what makes a true knight. If she followed the creed of a knight by tradition, that leads her to follow Dimitri. But if she chooses to fight as a knight of ideals, then she follows Byleth. 

It's why I like how in non-AM routes, Ingrid does more productive things than following a dream that feels like she's more chasing Glenn's shadow.

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8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I know, hence why I compared it to Edelgard and Hubert. One side wants them to be friends, the other wants to be simply act like a vassal. Only at the end do they finally go with what their master wants.

I honestly felt tat Ingrid worked well in CF, but mostly because one of my favorite lines from her came from her fighting Felix, in how she states that she's not a traditional knight, but a knight that believes in the ideals of the professor. And this to me, is actually what makes a true knight. If she followed the creed of a knight by tradition, that leads her to follow Dimitri. But if she chooses to fight as a knight of ideals, then she follows Byleth. 

It's why I like how in non-AM routes, Ingrid does more productive things than following a dream that feels like she's more chasing Glenn's shadow.

Misunderstood that then, alrighty.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the Ingrid one then. I can absolutely see Felix or Sylvain joining BE and doing so for their own reasons, Ingrid can somewhat end up working on CF, she ends up mostly just being there because Byleth is Just That Charismatic. And as you say, that happens in all non-AM routes. As I said, it's the recruitment being kind of half baked overall.

8 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

The counter-point, of course, is that Rhea's purported irrationality has been brought on by Edelgard's attack against the Church. Moreover, it's unclear that "laughing and talking to herself" actually cause her to make bad decisions, that harm the Church or the Kingdom. She goes off the deep end by chapter 18, admittedly, but that's after Dimitri can do anything about it.

Hypothetical-King would acknowledges that the Church is a longtime ally, in large part responsible for the power of Faerghus' throne. If the Church is defeated, then the Kingdom loses its support, putting them at risk from an emboldened Empire. The most otherwise I could see King Hypothetica doing, is requesting that Rhea step down, and let someone else (Seteth, for instance) take leadership of the Church.

Full disclosure, I don't remember exactly how this plays out. We can agree, I think, that it'd be impractical for Dimitri to actually attack the soldiers who turn into Crest Beasts, when the Empire is there to kill them. I wouldn't say Dimitri ever "accepts" the decision, or "allows" his soldiers to do this - it's moreso that he's in a position where he can't reasonably stop them, so he tolerates it, with serious reluctance. But it's possible I'm misremembering his reaction.

His lines in response to Dedue revealing he gave them crest stones;

"Why did you do that? You call this hope? Well....we must claim victory so their sacrifice was not in vain."

He definitely does not agree or 'allow' them to do this, but by this point he can't stop them and the Empire is right in front of them. The fact that they did this behind his back alone implies that he would have never allowed them to do this if his hand wasn't basically forced as it were here.

Edited by Axel987

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Ingrid also following you because she believes in Byleth's ideals seems like a similar cop-out, tbh.

But the conclusion she comes to in her A support with Felix is that she should follow her heart instead of following tradition or her commander's orders... and that cleverly makes her a plausible recruit in any route. You can say her heart has lead her to believe in the professor, who decides what her ideals are dependent on which route you choose.

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10 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

The counter-point, of course, is that Rhea's purported irrationality has been brought on by Edelgard's attack against the Church. Moreover, it's unclear that "laughing and talking to herself" actually cause her to make bad decisions, that harm the Church or the Kingdom. She goes off the deep end by chapter 18, admittedly, but that's after Dimitri can do anything about it.

Hypothetical-King would acknowledges that the Church is a longtime ally, in large part responsible for the power of Faerghus' throne. If the Church is defeated, then the Kingdom loses its support, putting them at risk from an emboldened Empire. The most otherwise I could see King Hypothetica doing, is requesting that Rhea step down, and let someone else (Seteth, for instance) take leadership of the Church.

See, as you bring it up, negotiations could have been on the table.

The problem though I realize in this hypothetical king scenario is whether such a rational king would exist given Faerghus's toxic culture.

12 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Full disclosure, I don't remember exactly how this plays out. We can agree, I think, that it'd be impractical for Dimitri to actually attack the soldiers who turn into Crest Beasts, when the Empire is there to kill them. I wouldn't say Dimitri ever "accepts" the decision, or "allows" his soldiers to do this - it's moreso that he's in a position where he can't reasonably stop them, so he tolerates it, with serious reluctance. But it's possible I'm misremembering his reaction.

 

5 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

His lines in response to Dedue revealing he gave them crest stones;

"Why did you do that? You call this hope? Well....we must claim victory so their sacrifice was not in vain."

He definitely does not agree or 'allow' them to do this, but by this point he can't stop them and the Empire is right in front of them.

I mean, he COULD. Just relay orders to the remaining men not yet transformed to NOT use the Crest Stones. But he pretty much complied and accepted the decision of the remaining soldiers transforming themselves. 

6 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Ingrid also following you because she believes in Byleth's ideals seems like a similar cop-out, tbh.

But the conclusion she comes to in her A support with Felix is that she should follow her heart instead of following tradition or her commander's orders... and that cleverly makes her a plausible recruit in any route. You can say her heart has lead her to believe in the professor, who decides what her ideals are dependent on which route you choose.

Well, only a few ever speak of reasons outside of Byleth. 

It's why I absolutely love Marianne in CF, and how she's practically an Edelgard fangirl, just outright admiring her in Chapter 12 and 13 of CF.

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Relay orders in a vast battlefield with rain that is already interrupting communications with their allies and slowing their own movement, taking up even more time as the empire continues to march on them? If it was something that happens before the battle even begins I could think it more reasonable but by the time one even turns into a monster, you can have killed off several of them already. It's really not a position in which he was particularly able of doing much other than begrudingly standby lol. I'd harken it to the non-CF situation with the Hrym territories where Edelgard's hand is tied too and she's effectively forced to comply.

Either way, thanks for the good conversation the past couple hours. It's getting real late here so I think I'll bowe out now, have a good one.

Edited by Axel987

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14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

See, as you bring it up, negotiations could have been on the table.

The problem though I realize in this hypothetical king scenario is whether such a rational king would exist given Faerghus's toxic culture.

 

I mean, he COULD. Just relay orders to the remaining men not yet transformed to NOT use the Crest Stones. But he pretty much complied and accepted the decision of the remaining soldiers transforming themselves. 

Except Edelgard never brings up possible negotiations to our knowledge over the course of the apparent stalemate. Also what exactly is Faerghus toxic culture? Are you referring to the fact how they about chivalry when literally any nation ours too in real life is based on such a foundation of pride in one's country? There's nothing he can literally do about it, it's not like he can grab them from across the battlefield and slap sense into them. Them turning into monsters for the power boost is the equivalent to One Piece's Alabasta's 4 Elite Guards using the Hero's Water to die saving their king and country with their lives. Again I don't understand how you can side with Edelgard who is the aggressor no matter how you slice it she causes pain to the people of Faergus all because she doesn't at least try to have any open dialogue which is fine in character for her in how she's written but doesn't mean people have to like it and why they have a tough time supporting her methods.

Edited by AbsoluteZer0Nova

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4 minutes ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

Except Edelgard never brings up possible negotiations to our knowledge over the course of the apparent stalemate. Also what exactly is Faerghus toxic culture? Are you referring to the fact how they about chivalry when literally any nation ours too in real life is based on such a foundation of pride in one's country? There's nothing he can literally do about it, it's not like he can grab them from across the battlefield and slap sense into them. Them turning into monsters for the power boost is the equivalent to One Piece's Alabasta's 4 Elite Guards using the Hero's Water to die saving their king and country with their lives. Again I don't understand how you can side with Edelgard who is the aggressor no matter how you slice it she causes pain to the people of Faergus

The minute you bring up "siding with Edelgard" is the minute you miss the point of this topic.

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6 minutes ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

Except Edelgard never brings up possible negotiations to our knowledge over the course of the apparent stalemate. Also what exactly is Faerghus toxic culture? Are you referring to the fact how they about chivalry when literally any nation ours too in real life is based on such a foundation of pride in one's country? There's nothing he can literally do about it, it's not like he can grab them from across the battlefield and slap sense into them. Them turning into monsters for the power boost is the equivalent to One Piece's Alabasta's 4 Elite Guards using the Hero's Water to die saving their king and country with their lives. Again I don't understand how you can side with Edelgard who is the aggressor no matter how you slice it she causes pain to the people of Faergus

I feel you are ignoring the manifestos on purpose. I said this to you, like, three times now. So diplomacy was already attempted, and Dimtiri didn't care. He had the opportunity to avoid bringing war to his doorstep. He chose not to and go to war because he wanted revenge. 

Also, yeah, Faerghus sucks as a nation. It's the most toxic environment. Teaching kids how to fight before they write basically promotes them to be violent. It's why Faerghus actually went crazy and committed genocide. No nation ever displayed this type of horrific act. It's why when Ingrid doesn't pursue her dream to be a knight but actually takes a step back and reevaluate things, she helps turn a frigid wasteland into a bountiful field. 

9 minutes ago, eclipse said:

The minute you bring up "siding with Edelgard" is the minute you miss the point of this topic.

Yeah, that's why I was never gonna bother replying to that part. 

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7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I feel you are ignoring the manifestos on purpose. I said this to you, like, three times now. So diplomacy was already attempted, and Dimtiri didn't care. He had the opportunity to avoid bringing war to his doorstep. He chose not to and go to war because he wanted revenge. 

Also, yeah, Faerghus sucks as a nation. It's the most toxic environment. Teaching kids how to fight before they write basically promotes them to be violent. It's why Faerghus actually went crazy and committed genocide. No nation ever displayed this type of horrific act. It's why when Ingrid doesn't pursue her dream to be a knight but actually takes a step back and reevaluate things, she helps turn a frigid wasteland into a bountiful field. 

Yeah, that's why I was never gonna bother replying to that part. 

One reason I am not too crazy about Faerghus as a nation, we do seem the most steeped in tradition and unwilling to change. 

I have been trying to understand things, is any truth to Edelgard's claim that the church has been trying to split up empire territories into smaller nations to make them easier to control? I can certainly see the logic behind that statement. And if true, how that could cause further and further division in future. 

I see nothing wrong with unifying Fodlan under one leader as long as that leader is benevolent. The most important thing is the living standard of the majority of people. Faerghus isn't exactly brilliant, so I actually believe that life under Edelgard (CF) might actually be an improvement. But the path to get there was still very costly

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5 minutes ago, eclipse said:

The minute you bring up "siding with Edelgard" is the minute you miss the point of this topic.

I genuinely want to understand where he's coming from with Dimitri is to blame for harboring Rhea when as @Shanty Pete's 1st Mate stated before why it doesn't make a lick of sense of it being fair to say Dimitri is responsible for what happened to the kingdom. Like that gives Edelgard the complete justified right to come through Faerghus as she pleases to get her? That wouldn't slide irl where other people would find it abhorrent. If Dimitri was granting sanctuary to someone that had openly proven crimes against humanity than that would be a better case, but here it's Edelgard's word alone.

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9 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

One reason I am not too crazy about Faerghus as a nation, we do seem the most steeped in tradition and unwilling to change. 

I have been trying to understand things, is any truth to Edelgard's claim that the church has been trying to split up empire territories into smaller nations to make them easier to control? I can certainly see the logic behind that statement. And if true, how that could cause further and further division in future. 

I see nothing wrong with unifying Fodlan under one leader as long as that leader is benevolent. The most important thing is the living standard of the majority of people. Faerghus isn't exactly brilliant, so I actually believe that life under Edelgard (CF) might actually be an improvement. But the path to get there was still very costly

Randolph joins the army to further his family status despite the fact from what we're told him and Fleche were doing fine. Randolph was doing it for glory and trying to reap the benefits after the war for his work. I'm not seeing how the Adrestian Empire doesn't have the same flawed tradition and glory seeking fools as any other country in a Fire Emblem game... this isn't just a Faerghus only thing. Edelgard has people who join her side for the benefits that come to the victor like that one blond noble from the Leicester Alliance.

Edited by AbsoluteZer0Nova

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2 minutes ago, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

I genuinely want to understand where he's coming from with Dimitri is to blame for harboring Rhea when as @Shanty Pete's 1st Mate stated before why it doesn't make a lick of sense of it being fair to say Dimitri is responsible for what happened to the kingdom. Like that gives Edelgard the complete justified right to come through Faerghus as she pleases to get her? That wouldn't slide irl where other people would find it abhorrent. If Dimitri was granting sanctuary to someone that had openly proven crimes against humanity than that would be a better case, but here it's Edelgard's word alone.

I would say that the claim that either is entirely to blame or entirely in the right is ignoring the reality of warfare. Things are simply more nuanced than that. It is easy to play the blame game, but it is a pointless endeavour, I think the actions of both makes sense given the circumstances. 

I have long made the claim that the only thing that matters in war is a victory, because history will nearly always perceive the winner as the good guys, historically only the losers ever face consequences for potential atrocities committed during a war, and nearly every nation is responsible for at least some. How history is written will determine how people like Dimitri, Edelgard, Claude or Rhea are remembered, and how that history will be told, will depend on who is still alive to write the history. Or do you think that the potential winners would be honest enough to write down what these people were really like without making them into caricatures?

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