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YoungLionofAlistel

Deepest Character?

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IMO, Rhea, easily. Edelgard is a close second but Rhea as a whole has absolutely amazing depth as a character and her actions. It's not something I'll discuss here because there are multiple very good breakdowns of her on Reddit and the like. Seriously she's probably my favorite FE character regarding their character alone.

But yeah honestly, 3H has some really great characters overall. While we have a couple like Raph and Bernie that unfortunately got stuck in ye olde Fateswakening routine of "here is my gimmick, now I push it forever", they're still fairly enjoyable anyways, mostly due to their placement in the world actually being tangible. Meanwhile as much as I love a good chunk of Fates characters, they mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things which is really detrimental for them overall.
Wow, who would've known that actual worldbuilding would help your plot and characters!

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imho "deep" is an extremely vague word, so much open to different interpretations to the point that having a discussion about "the deepest character" simply wouldn't work

also, "deep" doesn't necessarily mean "good" and "well written"

this said, i too must go with Rhea, she's basically 3H's lore's personification, and a very good character on its own as well

Edited by Yexin

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Very unpopular left field opinion here, but I have to say there's a lot more depth to Hanneman than people give him credit for. His back story and his motivations are really interesting and he really could be a more central character to the story with little to no changes to his own back story if they just centered on him more. 

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On 2/16/2020 at 3:29 AM, Glennstavos said:

Thales, since he lives underground.

Considering that he's at the top of the heirarchy in Shambala i assume he lives in a tall tower, making him less deep in comparison to other characters. The deepest character would be the VW final boss since it seems he's under Shambala.

On a serious note the 'deepest' character would probably be byleth Rhea, followed by El and Dimitri

Deepest doesn't mean best however. My favorite character in this game is Dedue and he stays pretty surface level for who he is and what he does.

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"He seems quite sincere... But I sense darkness underneath..." A vague sentiment, but I imagine it to mean that while he seems very rigid in his mannerisms, it would seem that it is put on, as if one part of him is wrestling with another for dominance.

The symbolism of Dimitri's idealistic side in contrast with his vengeful side, and how one leads to the other is deeply inspiring to me.

He is soft-hearted. Too soft-hearted. He snaps at the Lonato battle, unable to fathom what reason a man can have to kill another man. Igrid points out that a king who is not willing to command others to their deaths on his behalf is too weak to rule.

The act of killing is so horrific for his mind to understand that it leads to an overwhelming sense of rage that such things can happen and be gotten away with. How does his mind answer? He convinces himself that these terrible acts are indeed inhuman, and thus murderers are literally not humans but beasts pretending to be people. He dehumanizes those that prey upon others, and now are exempt from standard rules for right and wrong. He even ends up considering himself a beast, after all the "rats" and such he's slain, and no longer treats himself as a person worth caring about and taking care of.

His crest reflects his personality--it provides him with incredible power that he cannot control very well.

The Blue Lions have a theme that exemplifies Dimitri's struggle. The Kingdom's value of chivalry can often celebrate the death of good people (Felix's brother), the obsession of serving their will (Dedue), and foregoing life and obligations to those alive due to failing the deceased (Gilbert).

"Ghosts" inhabit his mind and he sees them as angry and bloodthirsty, but really this is his memory being tainted with his own hate. If I remember correctly, we get a scene where it shows his past and it has his parents calling for Dimitri to avenge them, presented almost like a memory, but seems clearly not what they would have actually said, if anything.

Interestingly, and perhaps only because the writers didn't think about it, the ghosts could in some sense be real. He never sees ghosts of Byleth and Dedue, and they were all thought to be dead by him (granted, they weren't family and he didn't suffer the trauma of seeing them die). Additionally, in Silver Snow we see Dimitri, seemingly as a ghost (a vexingly vague scene, but seems to be him as an apparition) to Byleth. Presumably, you could even say that the scorn any ghosts might show him is not because he hasn't gotten revenge, but because he is so obsessed with it in the first place, and a vicious cycle ensues. As he killed to appease the dead, as he puts it, rather fittingly, the dead only grew.

The "ghosts" never leave him, even when he strives to move on, but they no longer hold control over them. Dimitri himself has said that he wishes to remember the past, including bad things, even if they are awful and cause him suffering (his headaches with Flayn, and him proud of his scars earned by protecting others). But he is no longer haunted by the hate, because he chose to forgive the person who was behind it: himself.

In one of my favorite supports, he discusses with Marianne survivor's guilt and how he questioned himself often whether he should not be alive when others have fallen. The conversations began due to Marianne warning him to stay away because he foregoes his own well being for the sake of others, not placing proper value in his own life. Gilbert scolds him for fighting on the front lines recklessly when a king should be safe, and when Dimitri tries to convince Gilbert to kill him, when Gilbert pretends to follow through, he feels fear despite his expectation: he wants to live whether he believes it or not. At the end of Marianne's supports, Dimitri tells her to let her heart bleed when it wants to, and don't pretend to feel differently. He echoes this in the new DLC where he tells Hapi she has a right to feel as she wishes towards those that hurt her. He tells Dedue that when he saved him when they met, it at the same time was an act of saving himself, because he desperately needed a reason to not having been able to make a difference.

His turning point in his madness is with Fleche. A young girl who had no business on the battlefield, but was given permission to fight because she wanted revenge like he did. But he did not know it was for revenge against him, for his vengeance breeds more vengeance. And when hate and bloodlust is built, people around you die, even when they don't deserve it, far less than Dimitri himself. So as a result of not only creating vengeance within Fleche, but by approving of her goal, someone important to him is lost yet again, all before he could really appreciate that he still had someone important in his life.
 

Fortunately, Byleth is still alive to chase him from reacting the wrong way again. The dead are powerless to do anything, so unless the living carries those burdens, they are left behind and truly disappear. He even says afterwards that to move on from them is the logic of the living, meaningless, whereas the so-called logic of the dead is the only thing Dimitri can believe in--or rather, he is fighting for what he thinks the dead believe in, and not on his own behalf. So in a sense, the hate was his own that he was attributing to the dead, but also because he is acting on behalf of the "will" of the dead, he is not fighting for what he believes in. With that contradiction exposed, he receives the warmth of the living, Byleth's hands, and he seems to properly mourn, not with anger but with sorrow.

This belief that the dismantling of the "cycle of the strong trampling the weak" through force inherently contradicts itself and in turn he dismantles his slavery to vengeance, which spins that very same bloody wheel. He is much more sympathetic to the weak on account of being ironically weak in contrast with his physical strength, and having depended heavily on finding reasons to go on, he feels protective of the faith of Fodlan.
 

Curiously, Edelgard likens those who follow the faith of the Goddess as without purpose, lost souls, which reminds me of Dimitri and the ghosts of the dead. But Dimitri insists that removing it won't help the weak move on, only the strong. He also claims that the value system she replaces it with will be forced and akin to a kind of faith as well, of self righteousness.

Dimitri is not convinced that her method will even work, for if things can be improved, it is through the people--implied to be the weak, not the strong. The one constant with Dimitri remains: while the Emperor thinks that war can be the most effective means of trying to improve society, the King of Faerghus claims that if people, even if they are weak, can get together and find a way without giving up by resorting to violence.

 

This ended up taking a long time, going to stop it there. Perhaps a bit much and perhaps too dull to expect anyone to read through, but it was interesting for me to think about and type up. 🙂

Edited by Holder of the Heel

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I'm a bit late to this thread, but I really enjoyed your analysis of Dimitri. You summed up what it is about his character that makes him so interesting, to me. As far as I can tell, the game goes out of its way to avoid suggesting that one character is 'right' and another 'wrong'; they are all both right and wrong, and each chosen path brings both gains and losses.  When you choose Edelgard's path, her choices are vindicated. if you don't choose it, all the sacrifices she forced upon herself and others were in vain. When you chose Dimitri's path, he finds salvation in this world and can be the king his people need. If you don't chose his path, then his obsessions inevitably lead to his death. 

I take my hat off to the writers of this game. While it may have its flaws, it's an incredible achievement. 

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On 2/19/2020 at 6:00 AM, Holder of the Heel said:

"He seems quite sincere... But I sense darkness underneath..." A vague sentiment, but I imagine it to mean that while he seems very rigid in his mannerisms, it would seem that it is put on, as if one part of him is wrestling with another for dominance.

The symbolism of Dimitri's idealistic side in contrast with his vengeful side, and how one leads to the other is deeply inspiring to me.

He is soft-hearted. Too soft-hearted. He snaps at the Lonato battle, unable to fathom what reason a man can have to kill another man. Igrid points out that a king who is not willing to command others to their deaths on his behalf is too weak to rule.

The act of killing is so horrific for his mind to understand that it leads to an overwhelming sense of rage that such things can happen and be gotten away with. How does his mind answer? He convinces himself that these terrible acts are indeed inhuman, and thus murderers are literally not humans but beasts pretending to be people. He dehumanizes those that prey upon others, and now are exempt from standard rules for right and wrong. He even ends up considering himself a beast, after all the "rats" and such he's slain, and no longer treats himself as a person worth caring about and taking care of.

His crest reflects his personality--it provides him with incredible power that he cannot control very well.

The Blue Lions have a theme that exemplifies Dimitri's struggle. The Kingdom's value of chivalry can often celebrate the death of good people (Felix's brother), the obsession of serving their will (Dedue), and foregoing life and obligations to those alive due to failing the deceased (Gilbert).

"Ghosts" inhabit his mind and he sees them as angry and bloodthirsty, but really this is his memory being tainted with his own hate. If I remember correctly, we get a scene where it shows his past and it has his parents calling for Dimitri to avenge them, presented almost like a memory, but seems clearly not what they would have actually said, if anything.

Interestingly, and perhaps only because the writers didn't think about it, the ghosts could in some sense be real. He never sees ghosts of Byleth and Dedue, and they were all thought to be dead by him (granted, they weren't family and he didn't suffer the trauma of seeing them die). Additionally, in Silver Snow we see Dimitri, seemingly as a ghost (a vexingly vague scene, but seems to be him as an apparition) to Byleth. Presumably, you could even say that the scorn any ghosts might show him is not because he hasn't gotten revenge, but because he is so obsessed with it in the first place, and a vicious cycle ensues. As he killed to appease the dead, as he puts it, rather fittingly, the dead only grew.

The "ghosts" never leave him, even when he strives to move on, but they no longer hold control over them. Dimitri himself has said that he wishes to remember the past, including bad things, even if they are awful and cause him suffering (his headaches with Flayn, and him proud of his scars earned by protecting others). But he is no longer haunted by the hate, because he chose to forgive the person who was behind it: himself.

In one of my favorite supports, he discusses with Marianne survivor's guilt and how he questioned himself often whether he should not be alive when others have fallen. The conversations began due to Marianne warning him to stay away because he foregoes his own well being for the sake of others, not placing proper value in his own life. Gilbert scolds him for fighting on the front lines recklessly when a king should be safe, and when Dimitri tries to convince Gilbert to kill him, when Gilbert pretends to follow through, he feels fear despite his expectation: he wants to live whether he believes it or not. At the end of Marianne's supports, Dimitri tells her to let her heart bleed when it wants to, and don't pretend to feel differently. He echoes this in the new DLC where he tells Hapi she has a right to feel as she wishes towards those that hurt her. He tells Dedue that when he saved him when they met, it at the same time was an act of saving himself, because he desperately needed a reason to not having been able to make a difference.

His turning point in his madness is with Fleche. A young girl who had no business on the battlefield, but was given permission to fight because she wanted revenge like he did. But he did not know it was for revenge against him, for his vengeance breeds more vengeance. And when hate and bloodlust is built, people around you die, even when they don't deserve it, far less than Dimitri himself. So as a result of not only creating vengeance within Fleche, but by approving of her goal, someone important to him is lost yet again, all before he could really appreciate that he still had someone important in his life.
 

Fortunately, Byleth is still alive to chase him from reacting the wrong way again. The dead are powerless to do anything, so unless the living carries those burdens, they are left behind and truly disappear. He even says afterwards that to move on from them is the logic of the living, meaningless, whereas the so-called logic of the dead is the only thing Dimitri can believe in--or rather, he is fighting for what he thinks the dead believe in, and not on his own behalf. So in a sense, the hate was his own that he was attributing to the dead, but also because he is acting on behalf of the "will" of the dead, he is not fighting for what he believes in. With that contradiction exposed, he receives the warmth of the living, Byleth's hands, and he seems to properly mourn, not with anger but with sorrow.

This belief that the dismantling of the "cycle of the strong trampling the weak" through force inherently contradicts itself and in turn he dismantles his slavery to vengeance, which spins that very same bloody wheel. He is much more sympathetic to the weak on account of being ironically weak in contrast with his physical strength, and having depended heavily on finding reasons to go on, he feels protective of the faith of Fodlan.
 

Curiously, Edelgard likens those who follow the faith of the Goddess as without purpose, lost souls, which reminds me of Dimitri and the ghosts of the dead. But Dimitri insists that removing it won't help the weak move on, only the strong. He also claims that the value system she replaces it with will be forced and akin to a kind of faith as well, of self righteousness.

Dimitri is not convinced that her method will even work, for if things can be improved, it is through the people--implied to be the weak, not the strong. The one constant with Dimitri remains: while the Emperor thinks that war can be the most effective means of trying to improve society, the King of Faerghus claims that if people, even if they are weak, can get together and find a way without giving up by resorting to violence.

 

This ended up taking a long time, going to stop it there. Perhaps a bit much and perhaps too dull to expect anyone to read through, but it was interesting for me to think about and type up. 🙂

Dimitri is a very intresting character, he is both very different and very simiar to Edelgard. Both ultimately care more about others than themselves and gladely sacrifices their lives for their greater good. But they have very different ideas of how to help the world.

Crimson Flower Edelgard is also alot more leniant on faith than her azure moon counterpart. The way I see it, it isn't as much that Edelgard despises the weak, rather that only the strong can make the neccesary changes happen to change the world to the benefit of all, including the weak who cannot make this change happen without help. Edelgard's position is pretty much that change won't happen by itself and for things to get better. Someone with power needs to act.

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