Preliminary Analysis of Ashen Wolves in Main Game Maddening

[Tombstone88]

This is just speculating the potential roles for the 4 new characters on Maddening mode. Where they fit in, when to recruit, what classes to go for, etc.

Yuri:

Bases[Growths]:

HP: 24[30%]  Str: 10[40%]  Mag: 7[35%]  Dex: 8[40%]  Spd: 9[65%]  Luck: 7[45%]  Def: 5[30%]  Res: 6[35%]  Cha: 7[50%]

Strengths: Swords, Reason, Faith, Authority
Weaknesses: Lances, Axes, Riding, Flying
Budding Talent: Bows [Deadeye]
Ability: Honorable Spirit [+3 Damage when attacking an enemy in melee with no other units next to him/her]
Crest: Major Crest of Aubin [Chance to prevent enemy counterattack]

Thoughts: Yuri is very similar to Petra statistically. He's actually has a higher Speed and Res growth than her, although his HP growth is worse. His weakness in both Riding and Flying means you're probably sticking to the ground. I see him falling into either Sniper or Assassin as his preferred classes. Sniper optimizes his offense, giving him 3 Range and access to Hunter's Volley once mastered. Assassin lets him fall into the role of dodge tank, though he'll almost certainly not be able to get Alert Stance+. You should be able to get regular Alert Stance in a reasonable time frame though.

Balthus:

Bases[Growths]:

HP: 28[50%]  Str: 11[50%]  Mag: 5[30%]  Dex: 4[25%]  Spd: 7[30%]  Luck: 3[20%]  Def: 7[45%]  Res: 4[30%]  Cha: 4[30%]

Strengths: Swords, Axes, Fists, Faith, Heavy Armor
Weaknesses: Lances, Bows, Flying
Budding Talent: Reason [Black Magic Crit +10]
Ability: King of Grappling [Strength and Defense +6 when at less than 50% max HP]
Crest: Major Crest of Chevalier [Chance to restore HP when hitting Combat Arts]

Thoughts: The first comparison my mind makes is to Caspar. Statistically, Balthus is better in almost every way. Balthus has better bases all around, better growths in Strength and Defense, neutral Authority, Rally Strength, a Crest, and a Hero's Relic. Caspar has better Speed and Dex, so he'll be slightly faster and more accurate. The former doesn't matter much on Maddening, making the latter the more significant advantage. I see very little reason to use Caspar when playing Crimson Flower now that Balthus is around. Silver Snow is a bit more of a grey area, but Balthus will still overall be better. For Blue Lions and Golden Deer, Balthus will make an excellent replacement for Dedue/Raphael when approaching the end of Part 1. War Master and Fortress Knight are the two obvious class choices for Balthus, with War Monk and Grappler being notable options as well.

Constance:

Bases[Growths]:

HP: 23[20%]  Str: 4[20%]  Mag: 11[60%]  Dex: 6[30%]  Spd: 6[35%]  Luck: 4[15%]  Def: 3[15%]  Res: 4[30%]  Cha: 6[25%]

Strengths: Swords, Reason, Authority, Flying
Weaknesses: Axes, Heavy Armor
Budding Talent: Fists [Aura Knuckles]
Ability: Circadian Beat [+3 Str/Def in dark areas/indoors, +3 Def/Res in sunny areas]
Crest: Major Crest of Noa [Chance to conserve Black Magic use on attacking]

Thoughts: Statistically, Constance actually isn't very good. With the exception of Magic, all of her growths are below average for a mage. Her bases are actually really bad; I believe they're the lowest of any mage. She's way too frail to take advantage of her budding talent, which she can't even really use unless she goes War Cleric. Her two strengths are fairly obvious: Her damage output, and Bolting. She'll hit about as hard as Lysithea (about 2 damage less on average), and Bolting gives her siege range for attacking and supporting. Due to her poor non-Magic stats and reliance on Bolting, it might honestly be ideal to keep her as Warlock. It gets Black Tomefaire and Double Black Magic Uses, so she can drop 4 high-damage Boltings per battle (possibly more if her crest procs). Because her bases are pathetic, it's probably best to wait until later in Part 1 to recruit her.

Hapi:

Bases[Growths]:

HP: 26[35%]  Str: 6[35%]  Mag: 11[45%]  Dex: 8[45%]  Spd: 6[40%]  Luck: 4[20%]  Def: 4[15%]  Res: 7[45%]  Cha: 4[25%]

Strengths: Reason, Riding, Flying
Weaknesses: Fists, Authority, Heavy Armor
Budding Talent: Axes [Exhaustive Strike]
Ability: Monstrous Appeal [Deals effective damage to monsters; monsters more likely to attack her]
Crest: Major Crest of Timotheos [Chance to conserve White Magic use on casting]

Thoughts: Hapi is a fairly solid mage. She has average bases and growths for a mage, with the exception of her unusually high Strength. It's not enough to really be a hybrid fighter, but it might help her cancel out Dark Magic's high weight and maybe keep her from being doubled. The most annoying thing statistically is her Authority weakness. Her spell list is extremely good; Dark Magic, Physic and Warp are all great. Blue Lions lack a Dark Magic user and a Warp user, both of which Hapi has. She's a likely early pick-up for them as such. Not sure about the other 2 houses yet. I'm also not sure on her ideal final class. It seems like a toss-up between Valkyrie for range and Dark Knight for damage.

[BakanGin]

hapi is the best out of this bunch I would say, just by her magic list

[Geenoble]

Should be noted that Constance has Rescue, putting her in a niche that she only shares with Flayn since bernie and anna have bad magic, she also has higher base and growth over flayn giving her the highest rescue range. Her best class will probably be DF anyway for those flying rescue shenanigans similar to Elincia in PoR and RD.

In terms of Hapi's final class DK is better than V in almost every situation since it's just higher damage, and in terms of range it actually has an extra point of movement so the tiles they can reach are the same. Only difference is when you find wasteland/stairs, in which V will have more range when mounted, but you can just dismount as DK to get 6 move compared to V's 4. She might like Gremory as well for double warp.

 

For Balthus he's pretty much Raph with a better personal skill in most ways. Seems solid, can't really see him replacing dedue though since if dedue get's going he will usually be better than Raph and by the looks of it Balthus as well. WM/Grappler and FK seem like his best classes, along with WL if you want to get him there, but there are better options for WL's anyway.

 

Yuri looks aight. I agree with everything you said. He could make good use of Trickster too, since it gives him supporting abilities.

[LegendOfLoog]

I'm not that far in yet (just completed Ch.5 on CF Maddening), so it's hard to say exactly how they'll end up playing out in the long run. Still, these units seem fairly strong. Yuri and Balthus have great bases. All of them can take advantage of Heal getting around the XP penalties in Maddening. In Hapi and Constance's cases, they're both mages with solid Faith lists, so they'll want to invest in Faith anyway. Yuri and Balthus may not depending on how you want to take them, but they both have strengths in it, so it's easy enough to take advantage of. As for specifics: 

Yuri: He's in an interesting situation. He has the perfect setup for Trickster, but his Faith spell list is not that good (Recover is useful, but Silence and Aura are meh). His Reason spell list is also not great (straight copy of Annette's). Still though, Cindered Shadows convinced me that Foul Play + Fetters of Dromi is really strong as it has so many potential applications. It can be used as a Rescue, mini Warp, or just a general repositioning tool while leaving no movement wasted. Granted, anyone can use the Fetters of Dromi + Foul Play combination, but Yuri has the easiest time of it. Outside of that, I can't really see him in any mage classes in the long term because his spells are low Might in combination with middling Magic. He does have an interesting case for Sniper though. Deadeye is cool, and Fiendish Blow + Hunter's Volley with a Magic Bow can give him strong mixed damage. It doesn't take advantage of his personal, but I think it has some potential. 

Balthus: +6 Strength and +6 Defense is pretty nuts early on. It's basically a PP and EP Death Blow. It makes Balthus's damage output with Gauntlets great and allows him to tank like Dedue does in BL Maddening. Maintaining it is the difficult part, but it's incredibly strong, imo. Long term, he can go for a fairly simple Brigand -> Grappler/War Monk (for Brawl Avoid +20) -> War Master build with ease, but you could also take advantage of his <50% personal and go Mercenary -> Warrior -> War Master instead to pick up Wrath + Vantage. Either way, Balthus seems like a very strong physical unit so far. 

Constance: Constance's important bases are pretty much in line with other mage units, actually. Marianne, Lysithea, Annette, and Dorothea all have the same base Magic, but Constance is one point behind in Speed. It's her growths that are really terrible, imo; everything besides her Magic stat is bad/meh. Her Reason spell list is really good, though. Sagittae and Fire are very accurate, Bolting enables Linked Attacks and is occasionally useful offensively, and Agnea's Arrow is a good nuke spell. Her Faith spell list is fairly good. Ward has its uses early on when mages have really high AS, and Rescue on an actually good mage (sorry Flayn) holds a lot of promise, particularly on one who is set up to be a flier. I don't really see any reason to make Constance anything but a Dark Flier since it gives her a nice boost in Speed (+4 Class Modifier and +10% growth), Canto with flight, and Tomefaire. 

Hapi: Warp and Physic = good unit. Seraphim seems redundant considering she already has monster effectiveness as her personal, but w/e. Her Reason spell list is decent as well with a 3 range option and some good debuffs. Valkyrie is a good transition class to Dark Knight, and Uncanny Blow actually helps her since Dark Magic can have accuracy issues. Potentially could go Gremory for double Warp as well if you think it's worth forgoing 3 Move (4 with Move +1) and Tomefaire. 

Edited February 16, 2020 by LegendOfLoog

[Dandy Druid]

For Yuri, might I recommend Dancer? Yes, he has a Riding bane which makes +1 MOV unlikely or not worth it. But his relic is something that could help him, giving him an extra piece of movement as well as Canto. And if he's the dancer, he's the unit that would utilize that kind of relic the most. I would also consider making him a Sniper with a Magic Bow, which could make a good hybrid attacker.

For Balthus, he could also make a good Hero, since he has the strengths for it. Mortal Savant would also work well with him.

For Coco, Gremory is a good option for her, but I think Valkyrie is too. Valkyrie is a great class in general, but it will certainly help Coco out. 

For Hapi, you can afford to be experimental with her build. I would advise not to go the flying route (except Dark Flier) because fliers need special flying battalions and raising her authority high enough to use them may be a challenge.

[Cysx]

Honestly, Hapi being neutral in Faith is way more of a deal breaker than I think you're all letting on. Getting a neutral to A rank(for Warp) takes... roughly all of part 1? And her magic isn't much better than Manuella's, whom you also get for free(it's not like recruiting either/both of Linhardt or Lysithea is excessively taxing either). I don't find her dark kit all that impressive either, she misses out on all the really good Dark spells, aka Luna, Dark Spikes and Mire. And does her personal even affect Seraphim? From playing through CS I figured it only applied x2 effectiveness rather than 3(could be wrong, but her numbers were not that incredibly high), so I guess Seraphim can still be a relatively strong option against monsters, but if it's just 24 mt vs Hades' 36 or Banshe's 18(plus a possible tomefaire)... seems redundant.

Outside of that, it's worth noting that Balthus gets an awful selection of combat arts, while Caspar does get Bombard, making their output fairly similar once that happens(Balthus' personal aside of course). And Bolting is possibly the best spell in the game, three uses of siege without losing your support is crazy; it's also quite strong, with crit. Only problem is its accuracy. I'd also say Rescue got quite a bit better now that female mages have easy access to canto, and while she's also neutral in faith, B rank is more accessible at least. So all in all I think Constance has the better spell list here.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Cysx

[SpiceMan]

 

19 minutes ago, Cysx said:

Honestly, Hapi being neutral in Faith is way more of a deal breaker than I think you're all letting on. Getting a neutral to A rank(for Warp) takes... roughly all of part 1? And her magic isn't much better than Manuella's, whom you also get for free(it's not like recruiting either/both of Linhardt or Lysithea is excessively taxing either). I don't find her dark kit all that impressive either, she misses out on all the really good Dark spells, aka Luna, Dark Spikes and Mire. And does her personal even affect Seraphim? From playing through CS I figured it only applied x2 effectiveness rather than 3(could be wrong, but her numbers were not that incredibly high), so I guess Seraphim can still be a relatively strong option against monsters, but if it's just 24 mt vs Hades' 36 or Banshe's 18(plus a possible tomefaire)... seems redundant.

I feel like Banshee doesn't get nearly enough praise. It's another form of encloser, an incredible tool that can help you stop very dangerous enemies from killing your team members, it does way more chip damage than encloser will do to the dangerous enemies and can also be cast at longer distances with Valkryie/Cadeccus/thrysus/range+1. On my CF maddening run Hubert saved my whole times multiple times with it. One example I had was when the Falcon Knights in chapter 17 were hovering over a lake, they were in range of my units but none of my units in range could kill them. My units were also surrounded by ground units and monsters, and the wasteland and other terrain also meant they couldn't get away. Hubert slowed them down to 3 move with the help of a dancer, which allowed the whole team to stay and clear the enemies near them while not having to run from the falcons. Also I really don't think Luna is that good. It's only seen as useful because Lysithea learns it and she has lots of magic which helps her one shot high res enemies. Since it can't double, in order for it to be useful you have to have high enough magic to beat their HP, and Hapi along with many other mages wouldn't be able to reach that threshold, making Luna situational at best. The inability to double really hurts luna in this game imo and I don't think it should be called one of the best spells.

I'd say the best dark magic list would be Miasma(They'd have to have this), Mire, Swarm, Banshee and Dark Spikes. Replace Swarm for Hades if the mage doesn't have a magic combat art they can nuke with, like Hapi. So that's still two important spells not there, but Death is interchangeable with Mire since they both have 3 range. That's all you need from them. The def debuff only matters very early game, but i'd say mire is better due to it purely having double the uses. Overall not as good as Hubert's list but much better than Lysithea's dark magic list since she lacks any 3 range at all.

Agree on the Neutral faith point though. That's really going to hurt Hapi, so we can't just call her better Linhardt. And honestly I'd take restore over seraphim any day. Offensive white magic just isn't impressive in this game, and means the unit misses on out on important utility spells instead.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Yuri: Honestly it may be worth it to keep him a Trickster, depending on how useful that "Foul Play" combat art winds up being. If you don't care about it, though, I'd say Assassin first, Sniper second (note that his personal only works at melee). That Riding bane really drags him down, as he doesn't have easy access to any magic-specialist class with more than 4 move.

Balthus: He's got some pretty good spells, but a magic growth that's just mediocre (probably workable, though). He could stay in War Monk, and keep 6 move with backup magic support. Still, Grappler and War Master will do a little better with physical offense, long-term. Also his personal, combined with strengths in Swords and Axes, suggests a Wrath/Vantage build as a Hero.

Constance: Her personal growth rates are bizarrely low, totaling up to 2.50, in a game where most units are above 3.00. She definitely wants to stay magical - Dark Flier is cool for keeping high movement and canto, Warlock has the strongest possible Bolting, and Gremory has the strongest possible Rescue. Also, doesn't her personal boost Str/Mag indoors, not Str/Def?

Hapi: She's likely the most capable of going either physical, or magical, of anyone here. With a Flight boon and budding talent in Axes, Wyvern Lord would be her premier physical option. Staying magical, Valkyrie's strength is extra attack range (can't be countered by 1-2 enemies), Dark Knight has best damage and move, while Gremory would offer more spell charges, including that coveted second Warp.

[Cysx]

15 minutes ago, SpiceMan said:

 

I feel like Banshee doesn't get nearly enough praise. It's another form of encloser, an incredible tool that can help you stop very dangerous enemies from killing your team members, it does way more chip damage than encloser will do to the dangerous enemies and can also be cast at longer distances with Valkryie/Cadeccus/thrysus/range+1. On my CF maddening run Hubert saved my whole times multiple times with it. One example I had was when the Falcon Knights in chapter 17 were hovering over a lake, they were in range of my units but none of my units in range could kill them. My units were also surrounded by ground units and monsters, and the wasteland and other terrain also meant they couldn't get away. Hubert slowed them down to 3 move with the help of a dancer, which allowed the whole team to stay and clear the enemies near them while not having to run from the falcons. Also I really don't think Luna is that good. It's only seen as useful because Lysithea learns it and she has lots of magic which helps her one shot high res enemies. Since it can't double, in order for it to be useful you have to have high enough magic to beat their HP, and Hapi along with many other mages wouldn't be able to reach that threshold, making Luna situational at best. The inability to double really hurts luna in this game imo and I don't think it should be called one of the best spells.

I'd say the best dark magic list would be Miasma(They'd have to have this), Mire, Swarm, Banshee and Dark Spikes. Replace Swarm for Hades if the mage doesn't have a magic combat art they can nuke with, like Hapi. So that's still two important spells not there, but Death is interchangeable with Mire since they both have 3 range. That's all you need from them. The def debuff only matters very early game, but i'd say mire is better due to it purely having double the uses. Overall not as good as Hubert's list but much better than Lysithea's dark magic list since she lacks any 3 range at all.

Agree on the Neutral faith point though. That's really going to hurt Hapi, so we can't just call her better Linhardt. And honestly I'd take restore over seraphim any day. Offensive white magic just isn't impressive in this game, and means the unit misses on out on important utility spells instead.

To be fair I did get some use out of Banshee in CS, it's true that it's nice... but the 2 range for a support spell is kinda limiting still, and I'm already not a massive fan of Encloser when builds allowing to ORKO on maddening exist for more than half the cast. But fair point, Banshee is far from being a bad spell. Luna on the other hand makes Lysithea have good combat(lategame), not the opposite. It's been said again and again, but her magic is not that much higher than the rest of the cast; without it, she'd have just as much trouble OHKOing as everyone else. And mages in general don't double on Lunatic anyway, armors aside. You're pretty much always aiming for either chip or OHKO.

What's so good about Swarm, by the way? Also I agree about Mire uses mattering; I think playing through the dlc, we've definitely all experienced how quickly Death runs out.

[SpiceMan]

2 hours ago, Cysx said:

To be fair I did get some use out of Banshee in CS, it's true that it's nice... but the 2 range for a support spell is kinda limiting still, and I'm already not a massive fan of Encloser when builds allowing to ORKO on maddening exist for more than half the cast. But fair point, Banshee is far from being a bad spell. Luna on the other hand makes Lysithea have good combat(lategame), not the opposite. It's been said again and again, but her magic is not that much higher than the rest of the cast; without it, she'd have just as much trouble OHKOing as everyone else. And mages in general don't double on Lunatic anyway, armors aside. You're pretty much always aiming for either chip or OHKO.

What's so good about Swarm, by the way? Also I agree about Mire uses mattering; I think playing through the dlc, we've definitely all experienced how quickly Death runs out.

Didn't mean to imply Lysithea's magic was leagues ahead of the cast cause it isn't. I just meant that I already have trouble finding uses for Luna when I use her, even when she has the highest magic, so for others with less magic I'd find even less use. As for Swarm I don't think it's amazing or anything. But it is the lightest dark magic at 4 weight (miasma has 5) so sometimes you might be able to double with swarm when you couldn't with a heavier spell. It's only 1 less weight but since mages won't be over 25 str for most of the game (Sometimes for all of it) it still stays relevant. The -5 speed is pretty nice early on, it's more than rally speed and does damage, with the downside of needing to hit or be in range. It can sometimes stay relevant towards the mid and late game though tbh most enemies will either be way too fast for it to matter, or units can one round anyway so there is no need for it.

Maybe i'm not valuing Luna enough and it should replace Swarm on the best list, but I struggle to think of times where I actually used Luna in Three houses. I suppose the obvious answer is mages but I always had other units around who could deal with them better.

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

40 minutes ago, SpiceMan said:

Didn't mean to imply Lysithea's magic was leagues ahead of the cast cause it isn't. I just meant that I already have trouble finding uses for Luna when I use her, even when she has the highest magic, so for others with less magic I'd find even less use. As for Swarm I don't think it's amazing or anything. But it is the lightest dark magic at 4 weight (miasma has 5) so sometimes you might be able to double with swarm when you couldn't with a heavier spell. It's only 1 less weight but since mages won't be over 25 str for most of the game (Sometimes for all of it) it still stays relevant. The -5 speed is pretty nice early on, it's more than rally speed and does damage, with the downside of needing to hit or be in range. It can sometimes stay relevant towards the mid and late game though tbh most enemies will either be way too fast for it to matter, or units can one round anyway so there is no need for it.

Maybe i'm not valuing Luna enough and it should replace Swarm on the best list, but I struggle to think of times where I actually used Luna in Three houses. I suppose the obvious answer is mages but I always had other units around who could deal with them better.

I can think of some targets with high defenses overall.

Spoiler

All the final bosses (especially Nemesis) come to mind.

 

[Cysx]

1 hour ago, SpiceMan said:

As for Swarm I don't think it's amazing or anything. But it is the lightest dark magic at 4 weight (miasma has 5) so sometimes you might be able to double with swarm when you couldn't with a heavier spell. It's only 1 less weight but since mages won't be over 25 str for most of the game (Sometimes for all of it) it still stays relevant. The -5 speed is pretty nice early on, it's more than rally speed and does damage, with the downside of needing to hit or be in range. It can sometimes stay relevant towards the mid and late game though tbh most enemies will either be way too fast for it to matter, or units can one round anyway so there is no need for it.

I get that it's the lightest dark spell, but on maddening, -1 weight on magic is very, very, VERY rarely relevant... and the speed debuff accomplishes little when the chip on its own puts the target in OHKO range of mostly everyone in your army. If Miasma is forced, Swarm is honestly redundant, even though it's arguably the better of the two.