Is Power Creep Justified?

[Icelerate]

One of the main criticisms of FEH is that power creep on new units makes older units strictly worse thanks to having higher BST as well as better prfs generally speaking. However, why exactly is it unfair for newer characters to be stronger than older ones? The older characters had the advantage of being in the game for a lot longer which should compensate for newer characters being more powerful for three reasons.

1. Older units have had more time to get merges. If new units with similar niches were of the same level as old ones, why would anyone ever roll for new units other than liking their character? 

2. Most popular characters were added within the first two years of FEH so you really can't expect many people to use the new characters due to liking them more than their heavily invested old favourites. 

3. The satisfaction of using an older unit was present long before the new unit came into FEH. For example, I'm sure many Jill fans would kill for her being a launch unit even if it means she'd be a lot weaker compared to when she will eventually get released.  

[NegativeExponents-]

Cormag came with a worse spread than Valter. I would've preferred if he was just added from the beginning since he certainly didn't get any of those "amazing skills" as a gen 4. I'm dreading Heath. Hopefully he'll at least have a better stat spread even if his kit is most likely crap.

As for the powercreep, I know most if not all all gachas have it and I'm ok with that but I think Heroes powercreep happens too fast and upgrades come too slowly and sometimes do little to actually help the unit. Refines that units have gotten to combat this issue that were good at the time have already become outdated because skills and prfs that are magnitudes better keep coming out too quickly.

[AnonymousSpeed]

My most wanted character for Heroes is Saul.

Between the two options on the poll, I don't really like either. I would rather Saul be released with gen 12 BST in 2025. Every unit released in 2025 should be a variant of Saul. Sauls for every weapon and color. Enough Sauls to simultaneously seduce every female character in the game. Sauls to celebrate every holiday conceivable- I want a Christmas, Kwanzaa, Hanukkah and Ramadan Saul all on a single banner. I want a Saul for the Feast of Trumpets and I want that Saul to snap the game in half come 2025. The entire meta will be dominated by Saul. Every Arena match will be four Sauls in direct conflict with each other. There will be enough Sauls to recreate entire recitations of mass using nothing but voice clips of Saul from Fire Emblem Heroes. Jill fans who finally get their moment to shine in 2024 will feel their very souls being crushed when St. Patrick's Day Saul #5 is better than her in literally every regard. The people will be unable to handle the unstoppable influx of Sauls and the profits for Fire Emblem Heroes will burn like Sigurd Ein's one line of dialogue. New alternates of Saul, dubbed "Salts," will be the only content added to Heroes for a year and the last content added to Heroes for eternity. No more power creep. No more waifus. There is only Saul.

Real talk, I don't really like the idea of powercreep because it can make older investments feel cheapened (you will eventually have had enough time to build a Gen 4 unit as you've had until now to build a Gen 1 unit), there'd be no reason to use an old unit over a new one aside from liking their character, it's an uncreative approach to adding value to new additions, and it's a blatant way to get people to buy more orbs. The first two points wouldn't matter as much if it wasn't an actual investment to build up new units.

[Baldrick]

Power creep is only an issue if it means old characters become useless or you need to keep pulling for new characters. There are enough non-competitive modes in the game where you can use anyone you like, and the rewards for reaching the top of competitive modes aren't gamechanging - it's just cosmetics and a slight increase in the rate of resources. The challenge content like Abyssal and CCs either recur or are always available.

If you like a character because of how strong they are, even if they come out today with amazing skills they're likely going to be powercrept by next year. If you like a character because of their personality, they will can never be powercrept. Plus, it's always preferable to have a character you like in the game than not in the game.

[Lightcosmo]

I suppose it depends on how you look at it. From a competitive standpoint, it can be an issue sometimes, but if units didn't get better, you wouldnt really feel like you were gaining anything by going for newer units. So, I don't mind it as long as it isnt locked behind a paywall.

[Icelerate]

13 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

 If you like a character because of their personality, they will can never be powercrept. Plus, it's always preferable to have a character you like in the game than not in the game.

A personality can also get powercrept by a future character with an even more appealing personality. For example, many people no longer like their previous top favourite character as much as certain Three Houses characters.

[Baldrick]

10 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

A personality can also get powercrept by a future character with an even more appealing personality. For example, many people no longer like their previous top favourite character as much as certain Three Houses characters.

More appealing is a matter of opinion. It's not like comparing Death Blow 4 to Death Blow 3. More popular does not mean stronger, either.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Baldrick

[Icelerate]

2 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

More appealing is a matter of opinion. It's not like comparing Death Blow 4 to Death Blow 3. More popular does not mean stronger, either.

It was a joke lol. But it can be true on a personal level though. 

[Humanoid]

Client-side transmogrification could be a solution. Keeps people pulling (and more importantly, spending) but allows them to apply the new powercreeped hotness to their old favourites instead of having it locked to the new, potentially obscure unit they care nothing for.

And with the Resplendent Heroes system, the framework is already in place. Someone who owns Resplendent Lyn can freely switch between her new and old looks. So why not just let someone switch her looks to Athena's instead if they wanted to?

(Anyone else playing against you in Arena modes would just see default Lyn of course)

 

[eclipse]

1 hour ago, NegativeExponents- said:

Cormag came with a worse spread than Valter.

Skills, probably.  For stats, Cormag either ties or beats Valter in everything.

Anyway. . .power creep is inevitable.  IS needs to do something to convince people to pull, and favoritism only goes so far.  I don't like it, but I acknowledge that it needs to exist (which doesn't quite fit any of the poll options).

Edited February 16, 2020 by eclipse

[Baldrick]

14 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I don't like it, but I acknowledge that it needs to exist (which doesn't quite fit any of the poll options).

I'd consider that the first option, since only IS shareholders actually like power creep.

[eclipse]

4 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

I'd consider that the first option, since only IS shareholders actually like power creep.

Perhaps whales would, since it means they can pull farther ahead?  Dunno about that mentality, though.

[Benice]

17 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Skills, probably.  For stats, Cormag either ties or beats Valter in everything.

Anyway. . .power creep is inevitable.  IS needs to do something to convince people to pull, and favoritism only goes so far.  I don't like it, but I acknowledge that it needs to exist (which doesn't quite fit any of the poll options).

Yeah, basically my sentiments too. I mostly dislike broken SKILLS over inflated stats. Lull skills, skills that add debuffs and make them buffs, Fox tomes and million and a half affect weapons bother me the most. Lull and Fox because they're unavoidable, removing debuff skills because Idunn really didn't need the help, million and a half weapons because 9/10 they didn't need the extra stuff to be really good. (Like, seriously! I love using NY! Lethe, but removing damage by having a good speed stat is BROKEN with all caps.)

[NegativeExponents-]

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

Skills, probably.  For stats, Cormag either ties or beats Valter in everything.

Valter has a 16 mt lance that grants him an extra +2 spd and atk which gives him equal hp, attack, and def, plus 1 more speed over him all for the cost of a little less res. The fury effect on Valter's spear even let's him activate brazen skills easily.

In retrospect he may not have a necessarily worse spread, but having him be Valter 2.0 in this day and age is terrible.

[Yexin]

i'm ok with it, simply because i like to see what new skill they come up with, how blatantly stronger new units keep getting, and who knows, maybe some units i like who are not in Heroes yet can get a good treatment too (looking at you, arthur, boyd and makalov)

yeah, i'm disappointed that gen1 units, most notably 5*-only gen1 units, such as ike, got so shafted, but that's just how it goes

personally, if i were IntSys, every year i would boost every old-gen units' bst to make them match the new gen's standard FOR FREE, just to show that i care about those people who've been playing my damn game for so long

Edited February 16, 2020 by Yexin

[Endriu]

Powercreep is part of any gacha. We have to deal with it or stop playing. Whales need incentives to spend more money to stay on top.

Personally I am not interested in high tier pvp, the difference in rewards is laughable at best anyway.

Compared to other gachas feh's powercreep is not just limited to units stats but skills also.

[NegativeExponents-]

1 hour ago, Yexin said:

personally, if i were IntSys, every year i would boost every old-gen units' bst to make them match the new gen's standard FOR FREE, just to show that i care about those people who've been playing my damn game for so long

This is the reason I don't mind powercreep so much in some gachas. Because even when it happens, as long as they keep updating outdated units to be on par with new standards then it's not that big of an issue.

Edited February 16, 2020 by NegativeExponents-

[Hilda]

Powercreep needs to happen, otherwise the game wouldnt evolve. I just think IS handled Powercreep totally wrong.
Some people just like a few characters and want to stick with them. Powercreep comes in many forms, BST boosts, personal weapons and passives.
BST boost got handled i think pretty well with Dragon flower BUT:

Personal weapons: got handled most poorly, there are some amazing refines and then there is straight out garbage, it really depends if the stars aligned and your fav. Char got a good refine.
Also the fact that one isnt willing to retouch old Refines that have allready became outdated and are underperforming (Jaffar comes to mind and alot of others)

Passivs: the Demotion of Passives is a huge let down. The fact that Book1/Book2 passives are still locked behind 5 Star and/or Grails is just dumb. It hinders the flexibility to further your char and you might say at some point: "meh will do just fine with what we have". Seriously Quick Riposte is still 5 Star locked.... as an example

[Endriu]

1 minute ago, Hilda said:

Powercreep needs to happen, otherwise the game wouldnt evolve. I just think IS handled Powercreep totally wrong.
Some people just like a few characters and want to stick with them. Powercreep comes in many forms, BST boosts, personal weapons and passives.
BST boost got handled i think pretty well with Dragon flower BUT:

Personal weapons: got handled most poorly, there are some amazing refines and then there is straight out garbage, it really depends if the stars aligned and your fav. Char got a good refine.
Also the fact that one isnt willing to retouch old Refines that have allready became outdated and are underperforming (Jaffar comes to mind and alot of others)

Passivs: the Demotion of Passives is a huge let down. The fact that Book1/Book2 passives are still locked behind 5 Star and/or Grails is just dumb. It hinders the flexibility to further your char and you might say at some point: "meh will do just fine with what we have". Seriously Quick Riposte is still 5 Star locked.... as an example

I am totally fine with spending 20k feathers to get a skill to 5*. We get plenty of feathers these days.

Skills locked behind grails is much worse imo. I feel less inclined to spend any grails on skills. 2700 grails for a tt unit can take quite a while to accumulate, so I rather not waste any. Guess thats where the feh pass would come in handy... welp

[Gregster101]

I've been waiting three fucking years for Jill to be added and I'm tired of waiting at this point. I call bullshit on the whole "the longer it takes for a character to be added, the stronger they will be" argument, look at fucking Heath.

[Etrurian emperor]

26 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

I've been waiting three fucking years for Jill to be added and I'm tired of waiting at this point. I call bullshit on the whole "the longer it takes for a character to be added, the stronger they will be" argument, look at fucking Heath.

Considering Jill is a lance flyer the chance is pretty high she'll be butchered like Travant and Heath. 

[Icelerate]

41 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

I've been waiting three fucking years for Jill to be added and I'm tired of waiting at this point. I call bullshit on the whole "the longer it takes for a character to be added, the stronger they will be" argument, look at fucking Heath.

How do we know for certain that Heath has been butchered? 

14 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Considering Jill is a lance flyer the chance is pretty high she'll be butchered like Travant and Heath. 

Pretty sure she'd be the star of the banner and not a GHB unit. 

[daisy jane]

Well considering the only problem is Trevant is that he doesn't have a Prf - thus he could have any kind of weapon - i don't see how he's butchered. 

Also. considering we don't even know what Heath's stats are we don't know that he's "butchered". I would be over the moon if Jill was a grail unit because it would be "poof." right there, ready to get going. 

[Etrurian emperor]

11 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Pretty sure she'd be the star of the banner and not a GHB unit.

I think we all expected that of Haar too but that wasn't to be. So Jill likely isn't safe. Neither is Seteth to be honest. 

[Gregster101]

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Considering Jill is a lance flyer the chance is pretty high she'll be butchered like Travant and Heath. 

Please don't say that. I already had gotten enough people taunting me that Jill will be a mediocre lance flier ghb, I don't need another one

Also, if Gerik and Raven could be axe units in Heroes despite starting out as sword units in their respective games, what the hell is stopping Jill from being an axe flier? We haven't gotten a new axe flier in the regular summoning pool since launch, she should be an axe flier dammit!

Jill is also more safe from being butchered than like Haar by virtue of being an attractive female.