I like Fates more than Three Houses

[vanguard333]

1 minute ago, Imuabicus said:

May I chime in for a sec?

I cannot make the comparison Titania/Camilla as I have never played FE 9/10 but,

High Def Units:

Silas, Effie, Beruka, Bennie, Keaton

High Res Units:

Felicia 1 (kinda?), Elise, Niles, Kaze

You may chime in. 

I understand what you're saying, but my point was that Camilla and Dragonstone-Corrin are the only two for a long time in Conquest to have both. Notice how there's no overlap in those two lists. Didn't I specify that I was talking about having both? I distinctly recall saying "both high defence and high res". 

1 minute ago, starburst said:

How is this mechanic tedious when the whole map (bar that single phase used to kill the foxes on the bridge) takes plays on Enemy Phase? Either they attack you or they do not, you just hold the position and advance once the foxes are gone. It is very simple. I wish I could show you a video, mate.

Keep going; you've almost answered your own question. 

It's tedious because, as you pretty much pointed out, there's nothing to it. You just huddle up your units, hold position, advance when they're gone, rinse, repeat except for one small time when you get to a bridge. That's not interesting or dynamic, it doesn't require much thought, and yet you have to rinse and repeat for phase after phase until the chapter's over. How is that not the definition of tedium? I thought the "red light, green light" analogy made it clear. 

[eclipse]

27 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

Defend Iago and Hans' shitfest, I dare you

I will direct you to the Drafts subforum, where units are far more constrained.  Rigging is most likely involved, but it shows that it's possible.

[Flere210]

6 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

 

"There's no Sigurd/Titania/Seth" There's Camilla, and she can end up being pretty much a necessity. 

Try a Camilla solo run, it's sure as hell not going to be easier than playing normally. My problem is not an unit being necessary(wich she is not) but a unit being so overpowered they can solo the game whit little work on the player part. But i conce Camilla pubish you more than Titania for not using her, because Conquest is not as easy as PoR.

6 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

 

Similarly, when it comes to units and min/maxing, Fates, including Conquest, brought back the Awakening-Style Second Generation Units even though it made no sense. 

I am not againist min maxing, i am againist it trivializing games. You can't make something like Forseti Arthur/Ced that literally cannot lose againist 90% of the game he is in, or like Awakening dark mages.

 

6 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

 

And, as far as the maps go, I never felt like any of them prevented conventional strategies; more often they were just an annoyance. I find that a good map gimmick seems like a problem at first, but with some creativity can be turned into an advantage. That's not the only requirement, but it generally is a requirement. The gimmicks in Conquest were far more of a nuisance than anything else, with no way to turn it into an advantage and the "challenge" being how to mitigate the gimmick's effects. 

For one example, the Kitsune chapter, or as I like to call it, "Green light, Red light" because that's what it is, and I've often found that any gimmick that devolves a fight from something strategic into a "green light, red light" scenario is a bad design. The Kitsune having pass and necessitating that you turtle-up to protect your more vulnerable units was a decent idea, but the stupid invulnerability absolutely wasn't. "Green light, Red light" is not strategy; it's poor design. 

Again, reclass Jakob into a paladin, give him a javelin, and check if he kill everything on enemy phase.

To me, the point of gimmick is to be impossible to brute forced trough, and make you play differently based on the situation. Conquest do that both by map design, and by giving enemies certain skills. They are annoying because often not having things going your way is annoying.

And while i agree that Kitsune hell is a bad map, i'd rather have a set of map that tries to challenge me in different ways whit some of them being shitshows, than having a game whit 20 maps solved by the same strategy and 3 interesting maps that got warpskipped because interesting maps make you lose turns.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Flere210

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

15 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

You may chime in.

I´m gonna go and get the big bells then.

15 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I understand what you're saying, but my point was that Camilla and Dragonstone-Corrin are the only two for a long time in Conquest to have both. Notice how there's no overlap in those two lists. Didn't I specify that I was talking about having both? I distinctly recall saying "both high defence and high res". 

I raise you one Leo, with 4 chapters later jointime, and 1 Level above Camilla with -2DEF, +5RES.

I can see what you mean, and perhaps this too is a thing of playstyle but consider the enemy positioning on the Maps and whether or not you need high DEF/RES units. I wll give examples until chapter 16 (mostly from Memory, take with saltgrain), as that´s when we have almost the full cast, but if you want I´ll go further than that.

Chapter 7: no magic damage, Silas, Effie, Elise join

Chapter 8: mixed damage, damage segregation in Dark mages stick to their own and the same for fighters. some overlapping ranges, Niles joins

Chapter 9: physical damage only. Two enemies wield magic weapons (one Archer with Haitaka, one Spear Fighter Reinforcement)

Chapter 10: physical damage only, Camilla & Beruka join

Chapter 11: physical/magic damage is segregated by rooms. Kaze joins.

Chapter 12: no magic damage

Chapter 13: Orochis group of magicians. The rest is physical damage. Bennie joins.

Chapter 14: physical damage only (I seem to remember some Falcon Knight with Bolt Naginata? also boss) Keaton & Leo join

Chapter 15: physical damage, a villager with bolt Naginata I think?

Chapter 16: First extremely mixed setup. Physical and magic users are mixed together with overlapping ranges: Dark Mages, Sorcerors, 1 or 2? Adventurers with Shining Bow. God joins. I mean Xander.

[Flere210]

Imo no unit should have high def and res whitout also having very low damage in the first place.

[ciphertul]

Just now, Flere210 said:

Imo no unit should have high def and res whitout also having very low damage in the first place.

Or speed for that matter, a tanky unit should have either Low Attack or Low Speed to balance

[Flere210]

Or terrible movement, or being an est. Nasically the point is that every unit should have clear strenght AND WEAKNESSES.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

4 minutes ago, ciphertul said:

Or speed for that matter, a tanky unit should have either Low Attack or Low Speed to balance

 

5 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Imo no unit should have high def and res whitout also having very low damage in the first place.

So Benny? (kinda has Res too, but low base) He has 45% growth, like Camilla and Peri (highest growth in the game barring children)

[Flere210]

Yes, Benny is a roach but also has terrible speed and join a bit underlevelled.

[starburst]

52 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

It's tedious because, as you pretty much pointed out, there's nothing to it. You just huddle up your units, hold position, advance when they're gone, rinse, repeat except for one small time when you get to a bridge. That's not interesting or dynamic, it doesn't require much thought, and yet you have to rinse and repeat for phase after phase until the chapter's over. How is that not the definition of tedium? I thought the "red light, green light" analogy made it clear. 

Oh! I see it now. The thing is that while I may find the map boring, it plays so fast that I do not find it tedious. The first fox packs take two or three phases, then one marches towards the bridge and spends one phase there, then one marches west and uses two or three phases before finally facing Gorgeous. It goes faster than any other chapter from Chapter 11 onwards (bar 21, which is done in eight turns or so.)

In the same vein, when I say that Awakening and Three Houses are boring, you could say that they are tedious, for there is no need to think and adjust. One just keeps on moving killing enemies.

Edited February 22, 2020 by starburst

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

2 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Yes, Benny is a roach but also has terrible speed and join a bit underlevelled.

Terrible speed I can most definitely see, but Wary Fighter is a thing, though that is a thing he has to work for. Combine WF with a Javelin and you have a unit, other low attack Units won´t meddle with, unless they have 3 range.

 

[vanguard333]

Sorry this took a while; I had my reply almost completed and then it got suddenly deleted by a click I did not make. Why doesn't this site have an undo button? It would be really useful.

Anyway:

30 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

And while i agree that Kitsune hell is a bad map, i'd rather have a set of map that tries to challenge me in different ways whit some of them being shitshows, than having a game whit 20 maps solved by the same strategy and 3 interesting maps that got warpskipped because interesting maps make you lose turns.

I'm glad we can at least agree about the Kitsune map. 

Look; we would probably just keep on disagreeing about Conquest, so I'm going to bring this back to Three Houses in an attempt to level with you (if that's the right expression). 

Granted; the only playthrough I've completed so far is my first (Crimson Flower), but, while I agree with some of the stuff you said about Three Houses, I'm just not seeing the whole min-maxing trivializing Three Houses, or the idea that all the maps are easily trivialized or circumvented. I agree about stuff like wyvern riders being OP. But I just don't see how Three Houses is more "Awakening" in that mindset you're talking about than Fates is. 

To again compare Three Houses to Breath of the Wild, the first several chapters of White Clouds are very much Three Houses' version of The Great Plateau: basically a smaller version of the game as a whole without some of the stuff that gets added later, while also being one of the game's highlights in terms of quality, as everything works together a lot better before things gets scaled up and added on in ways that greater allow people to circumvent aspects of the game:

1. As all the units are infantry, there's no bypassing terrain. Similarly, if any characters (Lysithea) have warp, they only have the one use, and they can't teleport the units very far. So, rather than use warp to bypass the map, the player is instead incentivised (if they get warp this early) to use it more creatively. 

2. You argued that bows are overpowered. Personally, I disagree; otherwise wyvern riders wouldn't be as OP. Still, I can see where you might be getting at; a range of 5 without combat arts as a bow knight is perhaps a bit over-the-top. In that case, the early game doesn't have this problem, as the maximum range of bows is 3 through Curved Shot, which doesn't double attack and costs additional durability; making it a situational risk-vs-reward with its own pros and cons; something that's almost always a good thing in a strategy game. This gives it its own niche that can't be done with magic (until 2-3 range magic comes along, but by that point, your archers are probably archers (the class), giving them additional range) without overshadowing the other weapons.

3. The maps in the early chapters do give the player the need to think about the situation and think beyond just run in and kill enemy units. I like the gimmicks that are in the early missions; they aren't pushed to heavily and they still make the player think more about the situation. The only gimmicks that I find tedious are having to deal with Catherine and especially Gilbert; the latter of whom seems to be going out of his way to get himself killed.

I particularly like chapter 1: it gives you a choice to either go left and face Manuela's house first, or keep going forward and face Hanneman's house first. I would've preferred if we also started in different areas depending on which house we pick, but I like that element of choice; something that the game was very much striving for in the same way that Breath of the Wild was striving for freedom. Similarly, I like that, in the very first chapter where you can use your students, you can't use all of your students. I like it because it forces you to choose based on what you think will be most useful in the first battle. 

There's also a lot of emphasis on careful positioning in the early chapters; something that I do enjoy. 

 

I promise, the original version of this reply was better-written and the arguments were better communicated. Can we please get an undo button? But I hope this is clear. 

15 minutes ago, starburst said:

Oh! I see it now. The thing is that while I may find the map boring, it plays so fast that I do not find it tedious. The first fox packs take two or three phases, then one march towards the bridge and spend one phase there, then one marches west and spends another two or three phases before finally facing Gorgeous. It goes faster than any other chapter from Chapter 14 onwards (bar 21, which is done in eight turns or so.)

In the same vein, when I say that Awakening and Three Houses are boring, you could say that they are (also) tedious, for there is no need to think and adjust. One just keeps on moving killing enemies.

Thanks for now understanding. I do agree that the Kitsune chapter is boring. I agree about a similar problem in Awakening, but I don't entirely agree about Three Houses.

I do think that Three Houses has the problem to some extent, but it is multiple steps in the right direction compared to Awakening and most of Fates. I already said above what I think keeps the early chapters from being boring/tedious, but I think some of the later chapters also do a great job of making the player have to think and adjust.

One of my favourites from the Crimson Flower playthrough is the siege of the monastery in chapter 12 of part 1. That one I found had an almost rhythmic back-and-forth as we press forward, and the enemy units keep pulling new things out of their sleeve with different traps, ambushes, reinforcements, etc., as well as different lines of defence that made you think differently about how you approach them. If the reinforcements on the player's side had been controllable (not even in the playable sense; just in that I could command them so that they aren't unintentionally sabotaging my strategies), then it would be one of my favourite FE chapters; definitely top 15. 

[starburst]

50 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Thanks for now understanding. I do agree that the Kitsune chapter is boring. I agree about a similar problem in Awakening, but I don't entirely agree about Three Houses.

I do think that Three Houses has the problem to some extent, but it is multiple steps in the right direction compared to Awakening and most of Fates. I already said above what I think keeps the early chapters from being boring/tedious, but I think some of the later chapters also do a great job of making the player have to think and adjust.

Remember that I told you earlier this week that I completely disagree with those who claim that in order to express a valid opinion about gameplay one must have played eighty or so hours? Well, if only the later chapters of Three Houses are interesting, I would not know, for I would have stopped earlier and left it there.

Right now I only have "samples" of Three Houses in my mind, while I have a "vision" of Conquest, for I have played the latter like twenty times. Therefore, what I get from Three Houses is a game where the objectives and map designs are not diverse and where there is no Weapon Triangle or unit specialisation. In my head, this translates into a very basic gameplay: The objective is to kill everyone, the map design and enemy positioning are never threatening nor alluring, any of my units can wield any weapon and attack any enemy with basically the same rate and the only thing that matters is who hits harder and who gets hurt worse. And since the enemies have low statistics and no menacing skills (or skill variety) to check, I only need to move forward, make a simple calculation, complete the action and repeat. I cannot die by surprise --which is good, I guess--, but I also do not need to check anything, and a set of simple calculations tell me that I cannot actually die in the entire map. Raise the difficulty? It is exactly the same, just slower paced. There is nothing to think about, nothing to check, nothing to adjust to. No thrill.

Do you know how many times I have had to simulate multiple, diverse approaches to tackle a single section of a map in Conquest? Thousands! That is the thrill that I want. I do not want to die, I do not want it to be tougher just because, and I honestly do not even restart often (or at all) on the trickier maps, but I want to feel a credible menace upon me. And when I die on the last turn against the boss because I missed an attack with an 82 % chance, I laugh. I swear. I laugh because I enjoyed everything that happened before.
I enjoy coming up with that one solution, like solving a puzzle. And Three Houses was never puzzling.

If the idea is to have basic tactical battles, I have more fun with Advance Wars or Wargroove.

 

1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

And while i agree that Kitsune hell is a bad map, i'd rather have a set of map that tries to challenge me in different ways whit some of them being shitshows, than having a game whit 20 maps solved by the same strategy and 3 interesting maps that got warpskipped because interesting maps make you lose turns.

I wholeheartedly agree, mate. From the bottom of my Nohrian heart.

Edited February 22, 2020 by starburst

[vanguard333]

3 minutes ago, starburst said:

Remember that I told you earlier this week that I completely disagree with those who claim that in order to express a valid opinion about gameplay one must have played eighty or so hours? Well, if only the later chapters of Three Houses are interesting, I would not know, for I would have stopped earlier and left it there.

Right now I only have "samples" of Three Houses in my mind, while I have a "vision" of Conquest, for I have played the latter like twenty times. Therefore, what I get from Three Houses is a game where the objectives and map designs are not diverse and where there is no Weapon Triangle or unit specialisation. In my head, this translates into a very basic gameplay: The objective is to kill everyone, the map design and enemy positioning are never threatening nor alluring, any of my units can wield any weapon and attack any enemy with basically the same rate and the only thing that matters is who hits harder and who gets hurt worse. And since the enemies have low statistics and no menacing skills (or skill variety) to check, I only need to move forward, make a simple calculation, complete the action and repeat. I cannot die by surprise --which is good, I guess--, but I also do not need to check anything, and a set of simple calculations tell me that I cannot actually die in the entire map. Raise the difficulty? It is exactly the same, just slower paced. There is nothing to think about, nothing to check, nothing to adjust to. No thrill.

Do you know how many times I have had to simulate multiple, diverse approaches to tackle a single section of a map in Conquest? Thousands! That is the thrill that I want. I do not want to die, I do not want it to be tougher just because, and I honestly do not even restart often (or at all) on the trickier maps, but I want to feel a credible menace upon me. And when I die on the last turn against the boss because I missed an attack with an 82 % chance, I laugh. I swear. I laugh because I enjoyed everything that happened before.
I enjoy coming up with that one solution, like solving a puzzle. And Three Houses was never puzzling.

If the idea is to have basic tactical battles, I have more fun with Advance Wars or Wargroove.

Is the kind of thing I was talking about when describing chapter 12 of Crimson Flower (a rhythmic back-and-forth with enemies pulling things out of their sleeve and the player having to keep adjusting to them as they advance) the sort of thing you're describing as what you look for?

[starburst]

3 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Is the kind of thing I was talking about when describing chapter 12 of Crimson Flower (a rhythmic back-and-forth with enemies pulling things out of their sleeve and the player having to keep adjusting to them as they advance) the sort of thing you're describing as what you look for?

Eh... well... hmmm... how can I say this the right way?... I skipped Black Eagles because I hate the stupid girl with the stripper hat. 😬
Crimson Flower is Black Eagles, right? I still do not get why they do not simply use the teams name.

If you say that it most likely suits what I described, I will watch it on YouTube and probably give it a try. I owe you (and myself) that.
I would still kill Stripper Hat and replace her with a shadow girl, ok? (I guess that it is possible, I only played Three Houses once.)

[vanguard333]

1 minute ago, starburst said:

Eh... well... hmmm... how can I say this the right way?... I skipped Black Eagles because I hate the stupid girl with the stripper hat. 😬
Crimson Flower is Black Eagles, right? I still do not get why they do not simply use the teams name.

If you say that it most likely suits what I described, I will watch it on YouTube and probably give it a try. I owe you (and myself) that.
I would still kill Stripper Hat and replace her with a shadow girl, ok? (I guess that it is possible, I only played Three Houses once.)

What's your problem with Dorothea? The hat's because she used to work in an Opera Company, and she's a pretty good character overall, both as a character and as a unit (she particularly makes a good Dancer or Gremory). 

[starburst]

18 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

What's your problem with Dorothea? The hat's because she used to work in an Opera Company [...]

Suuure, as the attire of every other opera singer from the XVII and XVIII centuries can attest.

Anyway, I just hate her. It was hate at first sight (it is a thing now.) No worries, I already told you that I would kill Stripper Hat and replace her with Split Blonde or Hapi. I just want to know if the map is worth it.

[vanguard333]

1 minute ago, starburst said:

Suuure, as the attire of every other opera singer from the XVII and XVIII centuries can attest.

Anyway, I just hate her. It was hate at first sight (it is a thing now.) No worries, I already told you that I would kill Stripper Hat and replace her with Split Blonde or Hapi. I just want to know if the map is worth it.

…Maybe she'll grow on you if you give her a chance? Intentionally killing her is a bit... much?

[ciphertul]

6 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

…Maybe she'll grow on you if you give her a chance? Intentionally killing her is a bit... much?

Everyone has their preference on characters, so if that is how they use them that's fine. I don't care much from Dorothea, but I'll at least keep her alive(if playing SS/CF).

Don't take it to heart.

[starburst]

3 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

…Maybe she'll grow on you if you give her a chance? Intentionally killing her is a bit... much?

The most I can promise you is that she will commit suicide on an early chapter of your choice, so that she can depart as the drama artists that she claims to be. You know, to remain in character.
And it is not that I kill them, mate, they just die. Like how Jakob somehow decides to permanently leave the party on Chapter 6. Every, single, time. What!?

[Crysta]

that feeling when someone complains about a hat being too stripperish but presumably is alright with thong armor lmao

[starburst]

15 minutes ago, Crysta said:

that feeling when someone complains about a hat being too stripperish but presumably is alright with thong armor lmao

I guess that I should thank you for not going after the easy shot that is Ophelia. 😜

Is not that the hat that is stripper-like, the hat is just ridiculous. She is the only student with her tits out and a completely out-of-place hat. Everyone focused on Bylette's design, but hers is just as bad.
I will not defend Fate's female character designs, but it was constant across all units. Does the female Fighter attire bother you? I get it. Did you skip the game because of it? I respect that. There is nothing we can do about it. It is as slutty, shitty, denigrating, fan-service-ish as you want. But every female would look the same. Stripper Hat's tits and hat are unique, no other student has them. And I only despise her. I am not comparing her to anybody else, nor does it surprise me or anything. I just hate her.

[Crysta]

So... you have a problem with one character having very subtle cleavage and a hat but you'd be willing to overlook it if everyone else had even more blatant cleavage and a hat? Dafuq?

Gonna go out on a limb here and suggest it isn't the attire that's the problem.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Crysta

[Eurydice]

13 minutes ago, starburst said:

Stripper Hat's tits

.....Are you 12 yrs old btw....?

 

Just say the real reason as to why you dislike Dorothea. 

[starburst]

2 minutes ago, Crysta said:

So... you have a problem with one character having very subtle cleavage and a hat but you'd be willing to overlook it if everyone else had even more blatant cleavage and a hat? Dafuq?

Nope. If everyone shared her design, which I find hideous, I would either skip the entire game or try to swallow it. But since she is the only one whose design I hate and she is only in Black Eagles, I skipped Black Eagles. That is exactly what I said that I did.

I do not know if there is a language problem (on my part, not yours, for sometimes I think in German or Spanish and my words cannot express my ideas), but I do not know what else to say about it.