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I like Fates more than Three Houses


Florete
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40 minutes ago, starburst said:

 But since she is the only one whose design I hate and she is only in Black Eagles, I skipped Black Eagles. That is exactly what I said that I did.

You should at least give Dorothea a chance, not trying to force you to like a character or anything, but she actually has a pretty good reason as to why she dresses like she does. Some spoilers below, if you don't mind them.

Spoiler

Dorothea grew up as a orphan that had to sing to survive she grew up dirty and hungry and had to bathe in lakes. Nobles instead of taking pity on her instead laughed at her and bullied her because she was a poor dirty lonely kid. However because of her talent she was picked up by the Opera and quickly became a celebrity and nobles began to adore her and even give her expensive gifts. Dorothea feels the need to dress hrm...with a provoking sense of style because she's "learned" that she feels that she needs to marry a wealthy noble to live and so any possible children can live too. Dorothea hates Nobles, despises them, actually, but she feels like she needs to sacrifice some happiness to live. 

I just, recommend giving her at least a chance.

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4 minutes ago, Eurydice said:

You should at least give Dorothea a chance, not trying to force you to like a character or anything, but she actually has a pretty good reason as to why she dresses like she does. Some spoilers below, if you don't mind them.

  Reveal hidden contents

Dorothea grew up as a orphan that had to sing to survive she grew up dirty and hungry and had to bathe in lakes. Nobles instead of taking pity on her instead laughed at her and bullied her because she was a poor dirty lonely kid. However because of her talent she was picked up by the Opera and quickly became a celebrity and nobles began to adore her and even give her expensive gifts. Dorothea feels the need to dress hrm...with a provoking sense of style because she's "learned" that she feels that she needs to marry a wealthy noble to live and so any possible children can live too. Dorothea hates Nobles, despises them, actually, but she feels like she needs to sacrifice some happiness to live. 

I just, recommend giving her at least a chance.

Some like you may find that understandable, others may not. To me, those are pretty bad reasons. Kinda reminds me of Charlotte and well I find her reason far better then Dorothea's.

But again love her or hate her, each person has their own reasons

Edited by ciphertul
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On 2/19/2020 at 3:03 PM, starburst said:

How does Awakening address experienced players or players who want a challenge?! If anything, its "difficulties" are only comparable to those of Three Houses: Super Easy, Easy and Tedious. And none is engaging! Either it involves no tactics or is reduced to turtling.
I could understand if you told me that, despite its being easy, you enjoyed tearing apart enemies with a broken unit (pair.) It is not my type of fun, but it is at least palpable. Saying however that Awakening was "perfect" for newbies and more experienced players is a stretch. A very, very... very, very long one.

I believe they were referring to the Awakenings freedom to play as you want was the reason why the game was accessible to newcomers and veterans alike. If you want to use your favorite characters, you can do that without being punished, nor will the game stop you from exploiting the more powerful units. You can completely ignore reclassing, grinding, the child units, DLC, heck even supports and buying items, and the game will let you do that with little to no nudging to use them (with the disadvantages being natural consequences rather than the game punishing the player for ignoring a mechanic). I do agree that Awakenings difficulty is very wonky and challenge runs are the only way to get, well, a challenge out of the game outside of Lunatic, which is definitely a negative, yet the freedom in which I can play and how drastically different each run can be is the main reason I enjoy the game and keep coming back to it.

On 2/21/2020 at 1:53 PM, Florete said:

Also, it's extremely likely that Awakening, Fates, and Echoes all use the same RNG. They're all in the same engine and it's unlikely the devs would have gone in to change how the RNG works.

Echoes had single RNG due to the original game using it, Awakening had the double roll RNG every game after Thracia 776 uses, and Fates had an odd combination of single and double roll RNG.

 

Also, @ciphertul are you trying to say that you prefer Three Houses to Fates due to the latter having more consequences if you miss a 90% to hit when compared to the same thing happening in Three Houses? Or are you saying that you prefer Three Houses due to the reliably having higher hit rate percentages, while in Fates there's a greater variance (as in, the same character could have an 80% to hit against one enemy and a 30% against another on the same map? To some extent I agree that it is more frustrating to miss a 90% to hit in Fates do to having greater consequences and leading to nastier domino effects when compared to missing in other games, but a multitude of aspects lead to that being an issue, not just how the RNG was set up. I'm trying to understand the original point you were trying to make.

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8 minutes ago, ciphertul said:

.

But again love her or hate her, each person has their own reasons

Hating her because she shows some cleavage, especially when they like characters like Ophelia is rather confusing. 😕

But this is going off-topic and is turning into a Hate/ Like Dorothea Show. 

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1 minute ago, Hawkwing said:

Also, @ciphertul are you trying to say that you prefer Three Houses to Fates due to the latter having more consequences if you miss a 90% to hit when compared to the same thing happening in Three Houses? Or are you saying that you prefer Three Houses due to the reliably having higher hit rate percentages, while in Fates there's a greater variance (as in, the same character could have an 80% to hit against one enemy and a 30% against another on the same map? To some extent I agree that it is more frustrating to miss a 90% to hit in Fates do to having greater consequences and leading to nastier domino effects when compared to missing in other games, but a multitude of aspects lead to that being an issue, not just how the RNG was set up. I'm trying to understand the original point you were trying to make.

Both but I do feel missing on Fate to be far more problematic and harder to recover from it, but I'll stop there... don't to cause an issue again.

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Just now, ciphertul said:

Both but I do feel missing on Fate to be far more problematic and harder to recover from it, but I'll stop there... don't to cause an issue again.

I see. I agree to some extent, but the whole issue is reliant on more factors than the RNG. For instance, I find it annoying when missing a high hit rate or an enemy hitting with a low hit rate in Shadow Dragon, but less so when compared to Fates due to Shadow Dragon handling ironmanning extremely well, so I have an easier time recovering from the loss. And I'll stop there to avoid another argument from popping up. I was just curious about your original point.

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1 minute ago, Hawkwing said:

I see. I agree to some extent, but the whole issue is reliant on more factors than the RNG. For instance, I find it annoying when missing a high hit rate or an enemy hitting with a low hit rate in Shadow Dragon, but less so when compared to Fates due to Shadow Dragon handling ironmanning extremely well, so I have an easier time recovering from the loss. And I'll stop there to avoid another argument from popping up. I was just curious about your original point.

Oh no, I know better now. It's fine, I disliked the debuff and weapon system in Fate so whiffing then to be slapped with a debuff or death just got old. especially since I play with "Any death is a game over" style. But that is my fault for playing that way

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2 hours ago, Crysta said:

It's literally a slightly altered version of the standard school uniform everyone wears.

And the hat! God! How can you forget the hat!?
 

1 hour ago, Eurydice said:

Hating her because she shows some cleavage, especially when they like characters like Ophelia is rather confusing. 😕

It is the hat! First and foremost, the stupid hat!
I called her Stripper Hat years ago, after watching her first video or so. That message is somewhere in here.

I no longer know whether you are fucking with me or not. And it is cool if you do, I also like “building up” on jokes to mess around. I simply cannot distinguish your tone. (Again, it may be a language problem on my side.)

I mentioned that she is the only one with her tits out to note that it is part of a unique design. I dislike her. I always have. And it actually amuses me that people go hard on Bylette but dismiss her.

Ophelia’s design is yellow, yes, but it is the same attire that any Mage/ Sorcerer would use. Have you seen Elise and Camilla as Sorcerers? Seriously, someone misplaced some things there. There is no way that they can look the same.
If I were criticising the Mage’s attire, I would criticise them all. But this is not the case with Stripper Hat!

I am just laughing. It has to be the language. Honestly.
At least it is more relaxed that the messages about Conquest and Three Houses’s gameplay.

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24 minutes ago, starburst said:

And the hat! God! How can you forget the hat!?
 

It is the hat! First and foremost, the stupid hat!
I called her Stripper Hat years ago, after watching her first video or so. That message is somewhere in here.

I no longer know whether you are fucking with me or not. And it is cool if you do, I also like “building up” on jokes to mess around. I simply cannot distinguish your tone. (Again, it may be a language problem on my side.)

No not fucking with you at all, why would I do that ?

....I think I get what you are saying now.

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49 minutes ago, starburst said:

I mentioned that she is the only one with her tits out to note that it is part of a unique design. I dislike her. I always have. And it actually amuses me that people go hard on Bylette but dismiss her.

People dislike Female Byleth's default outfit because it's just plain silly. It's supposed to be armour, yet it leaves stuff like her belly button exposed. Here's the way I see it: if you're going to give a character a fanservice outfit, do it right. Be subtle, tasteful, and realistic. Dorothea's outfit, being a slight modification of the standard student uniform (plus a hat that's just a hat) and her character has decent reason for dressing like that, meets the criteria (except maybe subtlety, but it is certainly far more subtle than previous FE character outfits). 

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This reminds me a lot of the The Last Airbender vs Legend of Korra debates. In the end, it largely became whether you preferred the consistency of ATLA or the high highs and low lows of LoK and I think that concept is applicable here as well.

I think Fates had some really good standout concepts, Conquest gameplay is some of my favorite in the series. But the lows like marrying your siblings, throwing children in the baby realm, etc. were really, really low.

On the other hand, Three Houses can be sluggish and the School Phase can be very tedious on repeat playthroughs ( you really should be able to skip more of it in NG+), compared to Fates, the characters and narrative flow seemed a lot more consistent, even if imperfect.

This doesn't mean Three Houses has its own share of glaring flaws, but as others have said, Three Houses suffers from being unpolished and a possible rushed development cycle while Fates suffers from the themes of Fates directly clashing with how the game was presented, especially when it comes to the sexualization of some of its characters.

So even though I don't largely disagree with the points made in the original post, I could even argue Corrin was a better/less polarizing main character than Byleth, I still can't personally call Fates the better game. Even though I enjoyed Fates quite a bit.

On 2/17/2020 at 12:38 AM, Crysta said:

That said, it is okay to like bad, imperfect things. I like Dragon Age 2.

Shhhh. DA2 is great. Honestly, the worst bit is the reused maps and if Bioware didn't go so hard with the DAI cast, DA2 would have my favorite cast in any Bioware game.

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2 hours ago, Quiyonce said:

Shhhh. DA2 is great. Honestly, the worst bit is the reused maps and if Bioware didn't go so hard with the DAI cast, DA2 would have my favorite cast in any Bioware game.

Woah woah woah, let's not say things we can't take back that we may regret here. 

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i am glad to have found the single other DA 2 fan here, but lets keep the railing directed on stripper hats, yes

delving down into that hole lies nothing but madness and despair

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46 minutes ago, Quiyonce said:

DA2 is a hill I will happily die on.

I prefer to keep my thumbs and sanity, thanks.

Is there anyone here who prefers Fates' cast over Three Houses' characters, by the way? If so, would you mind explaining why?

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56 minutes ago, Thane said:

Is there anyone here who prefers Fates' cast over Three Houses' characters, by the way? If so, would you mind explaining why?

raises hand

My reason for liking the Fates cast is purely gameplay related though. The amount of dumb shit you can do with the fates cast Personal Skills alone puts them far beyond anything TH is capable of imo. And most units are designed in such a way that they are flawed (only one I can think of that isn´t is Camilla, but she´s got low HP, but that too can be remedied). Look at Xander. The moment you see him you might be like:

“[…] and on the 16th chapter he descended upon the player to bestow unto him unpenalized 1-2 range and incredible base stats […]

But then you use the guy and you notice he has little RES (he can be 2HKO by a Shining Bow Adventurer in his Join Map), his Speed is meh (can be remedied, Fates stacking be blessed) and that with Siegfried equipped he faces constant WTD against one of the most dangerous enemies in the game, which will give him wonky hitrates (sure enough, equip a Javelin and all is fine but a Conquest Javelin is a Conquest Javelin if you catch my drift)

Though I do realize that flawed units exist in TH, too, in the form of Boon/Bane in weapon skills, dependent Combat Arts and Spell List, but being able to give a unit base stats to greater varying degree than with the TH student cast makes this far more apparent. Does this make sense?

 

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10 hours ago, ciphertul said:

Some like you may find that understandable, others may not. To me, those are pretty bad reasons. Kinda reminds me of Charlotte and well I find her reason far better then Dorothea's.

But again love her or hate her, each person has their own reasons

For what its worth Charlotte's reasons seem to be a lot more benevolent then that of Dorothea. 

Dorothea is a gold digger who's after the money of the people she dates. She intends to spend this money on herself. 

Charlotte is after the money of the people that she dates. She intends to give the money away. 

That said Dorothea has a more likable conduct. Charlotte has a temper and is quick to treat people like dirt when she can't dig for their cold. Dorothea on the other hand is quite the sweetheart despite being a gold digger.

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1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

For what its worth Charlotte's reasons seem to be a lot more benevolent then that of Dorothea. 

Dorothea is a gold digger who's after the money of the people she dates. She intends to spend this money on herself. 

Charlotte is after the money of the people that she dates. She intends to give the money away. 

That said Dorothea has a more likable conduct. Charlotte has a temper and is quick to treat people like dirt when she can't dig for their cold. Dorothea on the other hand is quite the sweetheart despite being a gold digger.

Sure, but Charlotte worked to get where she was, where Dorothea got the help for the opera company. Charlotte also seems to show a bit more regret when doing that to people, like when she starts rejecting Kaden’s gifts.

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4 hours ago, Thane said:

Is there anyone here who prefers Fates' cast over Three Houses' characters, by the way? If so, would you mind explaining why?

I think if Fates' supports were more developed and better written, Fates' cast could be more likable. There are many ideas that had potential but unfortunately fell short. Camilla and concubine wars, Nyx being cursed to not age, Charlotte being a non traditional gold digger + trying and failing to hide her brute side, Hayato losing both of his parents at a young age and how that forced him to grow up, Reina's obsession with death, Flora's insecurity and how the past haunts her, Shura's role in kidnapping Azura, Sakura's social anxiety etc. Unfortunately, the poor writing has caused most of these characters to turn into simple caricatures or a contradictory mess. 

If the character development was done with as much care and quality as TH's, I'd think Fates' characters would be a lot more well received and reflect the morally grey concept that Fates tried to do.

Edited by zuibangde
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9 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

People dislike Female Byleth's default outfit because it's just plain silly. It's supposed to be armour, yet it leaves stuff like her belly button exposed. Here's the way I see it: if you're going to give a character a fanservice outfit, do it right. Be subtle, tasteful, and realistic. Dorothea's outfit, being a slight modification of the standard student uniform (plus a hat that's just a hat) and her character has decent reason for dressing like that, meets the criteria (except maybe subtlety, but it is certainly far more subtle than previous FE character outfits). 

It is not "just a hat", mate, you are ignoring the most glaring offender of her design, and it is not fair. That hat is about two hundred years into the future of the era explored in the game! For me, it is as out-of-place as a car. You simply let it go because you like the character.
If we take a picture of the entire cast and ask people to circle those who do not belong, the first pick will most likely be Bylette, but the second is going to be Stripper Hat. Manuela would be a solid third, but we could at least argue that sorceresses are often depicted as sexy women. After all, a sorceress is purely fictional and has no real counterpart, like painting a dragon, a goblin or an elf. However, a mercenary surely does not dress like Bylette, and Stripper Hat surely does not dress like any of her schoolmates. It was a choice to paint them differently. It is not subtle, but obvious and deliberate. Do you honestly not see it?
I am not prude or religious or anything. She just does not belong within the setting of her own game. I will stop here, for good. It was hate at first sight.

 

7 hours ago, Quiyonce said:

I think Fates had some really good standout concepts, Conquest gameplay is some of my favorite in the series. But the lows like marrying your siblings, throwing children in the baby realm, etc. were really, really low.

On the other hand, Three Houses can be sluggish and the School Phase can be very tedious on repeat playthroughs ( you really should be able to skip more of it in NG+), compared to Fates, the characters and narrative flow seemed a lot more consistent, even if imperfect.

You know, as much as I enjoy Conquest, the truth is that I have been Start-skipping scenes and interactions for over a year now. I value gameplay over story (in general, not only in Fire Emblem), but it is clear that I have formed a partial view about the game by skipping all those bad choices. Say, I would never know how Cornflakes romances her siblings in Nohr, simply because I would never pair them. Even though the option was deliberately included, and it is Conquest's worst offender for me. So, yes, my view of Conquest is obviously biased now.

On the other hand, the story of Three Houses may be less bad than Conquest's, but it is passable at best. I know, coming from a game like Fates, it seems like the new War and Peace, but by itself is plain. Thus, you get a passable-at-best story and a passable-at-best gameplay.

I see (many of) their strengths and their flaws, and I know how to enjoy Conquest (I have played it like twenty times!) I, however, still do not know how to enjoy Three Houses.

 

3 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

My reason for liking the Fates cast is purely gameplay related though. The amount of dumb shit you can do with the fates cast Personal Skills alone puts them far beyond anything TH is capable of imo. And most units are designed in such a way that they are flawed (only one I can think of that isn´t is Camilla, but she´s got low HP, but that too can be remedied). Look at Xander.

I think that they were referring to the character development, and not as units.
About your comment as units: The less you use the royals, the more flaws you find in them. Honestly, they are not necessary at all, and there are numerous, several thresholds which they simply never meet.
Do you know which royal is more difficult to replace? Elise, hands down.

Edited by starburst
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30 minutes ago, starburst said:

I think that they were referring to the character development, and not as units.

Hence why I said my reasons are gameplay related only. You won´t ever catch me discussing story or character development, because I don´t care about either. The only character to ever get a reaction out of me was Sarah from The Last of Us.

 

33 minutes ago, starburst said:

Do you know which royal is more difficult to replace? Elise, hands down.

Reclass Effie to Troubadour for healing (jk).

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38 minutes ago, starburst said:

It was a choice to paint them differently. It is not subtle, but obvious and deliberate. Do you honestly not see it?
I am not prude or religious or anything. She just does not belong within the setting of her own game. I will stop here, for good. It was hate at first sight.

Don't most the girls have subtle differences? I don't think it's a bad thing to make them look different. Getting characters to stand out is something a lot of artists aspire towards, I think as well. Not trying to argue since you have fair points, but in one sense I also think that I would prefer her not to look exactly like Ingrid.

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On 2/19/2020 at 2:38 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

There are instances where Fates has merits over Three Houses. The moment to moment gameplay of Conquest is consistently better then most Three Houses maps. Its also worth nothing that despite Three Houses supposedly being a ''course correction'' from Fates I find the two games share a lot of flaws. 

In the end I don't respect Fates nearly as much as I do Three Houses and I'm a lot harsher on its flaws. The reason for this is that so much of what went wrong with Fates doesn't seem to be mistakes but deliberate acts of bad faith. In Fates I often feel that the developers know exactly what they should have done artistically but that they also refuses to do it because other factors took preference.

-The fact that you can marry the Hoshidan siblings is a perfect example of this. The very premise of the game is deciding between your birth or blood family, but because fanservice was given so much priority the devs somehow thought that sacrificing the entire premise of Fates was what was in the project's best interest. Being able to marry your supposed blood siblings will always be an unwelcome reminder that getting into the pants of your tsundere little brother or tomboy big sister was more important than the overall narrative of the game. 

-Garon being so terrible he infects the entire game also stems from a large part to the devs just not wanting to put any work into him. They had all the ingredients to make him a very interesting villain and there's enough in the game to strongly implies this had always been the intention. But good villains take work and apparently the writers wanted to go home early. There not being any world building probably also has to do with the writers just not wanting to put any work in the game. 

-The second gen of Fates actually has very strong characters but because fanservice and remaining in Awakening's comfortable shadow was such a high priority these characters had to be sacrificed on the altar of fanservice. Forrest is really great but because the writers wanted to have the benefits of a child system without the work required to properly implement it he will always be damaged by the deeprealm nonsense. 

-A lot of death scenes also hinge on the developers wanted the emotional impact of death scenes without putting actual work in them. Lilith is the perfect example. She's a gameplay mechanic and not a character, but because the writers wanted a tear jerker they suddenly pretended she was a character while her death didn't even affect her gameplay mechanics. Izana and Scarlet being the deaths on the golden route is again that they wanted the emotional impacts of death but not taking any risks that might upset players. 

With Three Houses I feel that things that don't work out such as the Deathknight are mistakes, things the devs wanted to work until time and budget ran out. With Fates a lot of things that don't work are designed not to work due to the team having a very warped sense of priorities. And that's frustrating because Fates had all the ingredients for greatness but the team just didn't want to use any of it. 

This is a very good point. There's a lot of hints in 3H that they ran out of time (AM Cut content, re used maps, CF route length,...) unlike Fates where it seems like the team clashed.

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