My Thoughts on Crimson Flower (1st Playthrough)

[vanguard333]

A couple days ago, I completed my first playthrough of Three Houses. I had chosen Crimson Flower as my first playthrough, and I thought I'd share my thoughts on it now that I have completed it. 

I previously made a thread sharing my thoughts on Part 1 up until the moment of choice. Overall, I really enjoyed it, but I had three main issues with the story:

Spoiler

I like how Jeralt's death is handled overall; the scene where it happens is well-done, I like the change in music in the Monastery and how sad Byleth is in the following month. I was especially moved by the month of Jeralt's death being the one month where Bernadetta comes out of her room in order to pay her respects to him. However, I feel his raises a few questions:

• The second time Byleth goes through Jeralt's death, Kronya is saved by Thales teleporting in, creating a shield, and teleporting out with Kronya. One: considering Byleth needed time-travel to know to stop Kronya, how was this guy able to react in time? Was he watching us the whole time somehow? I understand why he saved Kronya: he needed her for later and he wanted to prevent the church from figuring out the secret of their bodies, but I don't understand how he could react in time to save her like that, and that second reason is thrown out the window since he does nothing to retrieve Solon and Kronya's corpses just a chapter later.
• Why? What was the goal for everything in this chapter and the next? I'm in part 2, and I still knowing nothing about why, "Those Who Slither in the Dark" turned those students into monsters and killed Jeralt. I can understand wanting to eliminate a threat to their plans if that was the stated goal, and Hubert speculates that it was all to kill Jeralt so that the knights would be busy running around and looking for Jeralt's killer while the group attacks the church again. But... they don't; they just wait in a forest and stage a trap for Byleth. Contrast this with Path of Radiance (considering how much Jeralt is made to be similar to Greil), we may not know what the Black Knight means by, "So I may see you at your full strength, General Gawain: Rider of Daein" or "Where is it? […] You, who knows what it can do more than anyone, would not simply throw it away" but it gives us enough hints to create a good mystery, and we're given a clear understanding of why: Daein wants something that Greil has, and it isn't Princess Elincia. The key to any good mystery is giving us enough information and hints that we can theoretically figure it out ourselves, and Jeralt's death just doesn't have any such hints or information. 

Also, I dislike the missed opportunity: in a game all about gray-and-gray morality, choices-&-consequences, ideology-vs-ideology, this would've been a good opportunity to have an antagonist for Byleth that stands out from the crowd by making it personal; this would've been an opportunity for Byleth to have a nemesis in the form of Kronya. For comparison to Path of Radiance again, The Black Knight adds a lot to the story by being a personal enemy to Ike. Everyone else that Ike's fighting, he's fighting either out of moral obligation or because his group was hired to do so; usually both. The Black Knight stands out among the crowd by making it personal, and given how Ike's arc is all about him living up to his father's legacy and taking up the mantle, it makes a lot of sense for his personal foe to be someone who killed his father in single-combat and was a former student of Greil. I'm not saying Kronya had to be Byleth's version of the Black Knight; honestly, I thought it was going to end up being more like Roy Mustang and Envy from Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood. But to do so little with such a massive setup...

Also, while the scenes with Byleth mourning Jeralt are great, they missed a big opportunity in my opinion: he's acting Captain of the Knights of Seiros, a lot of people knew him and are mourning him, and this is supposed to be the moment where the tone of the story shifts completely for the darker. Why not give him an elaborate funeral cutscene? Even Greil was given a scene where Ike and Mist stand in front of his grave in a state of grief. Why didn't they show us Jeralt's funeral? Show us everyone's different reactions to his death? Alois can be crying his eyes out, Rhea can be trying to remain reserved but still sheds a tear nonetheless, etc. 

Spoiler

The Flame Emperor reveal overall was pretty good. This had enough hints to create a good mystery, though perhaps a bit too many as it quickly became obvious who it was. Perhaps the reason it was still a shock to me is that I had dismissed the obvious answer at first because the Flame Emperor seemed too tall to be Edelgard. But I think it was actually because, since I was playing the Black Eagles route, I got invested enough in Edelgard's character that it still came as a shock even though it wasn't a surprise. That is a good mystery. And, it does have a lot of plot ramifications, so it works as a plot twist, and not just shock bait. 

However, some of those ramifications seem to stretch beyond what the developers intended. Edelgard is a lot of things, but stupid is not one of them. So, why would she order a bandit attack on a group of students that includes herself? I can understand wanting to kill or capture Dimitri and Claude to make unifying Fodlan easier, and if capture was the case, I can understand Edelgard including herself in the group to shift suspicion elsewhere. But the bandits clearly weren't out to capture; they were out to kill, and had it not been for Byleth, she would have died because of her own stupid plan. 

Furthermore, the reveal felt just a bit... lacking overall, and I think I figured out the reason why: the Flame Emperor doesn't do much of anything in part 1. What the Flame Emperor actually does in part 1, amounts to the following:

• Stage a bandit attack to kill the house leaders, though I already went over how Edelgard being the Flame Emperor makes that stupid. 
• Use the Western Church as patsies to steal Seiros' body, though Seiros' body wasn't there; the Sword of the Creator was. But Edelgard didn't know that.
• Loan the Death Knight to Those Who Slither in the Dark, though that doesn't really count as nothing those guys do in part 1 is part of Edelgard's plan. 
• Launch a raid of the Holy Tomb to steal crest stones. This happens after Edelgard reveals that she's the Flame Emperor, so I don't count it either. 

For a character that was set up from near the beginning to be the main antagonist of part 1; the antagonist whose big reveal would have massive story ramifications that would shift the player's perspective and all that stuff, there just isn't much there, and what is there raises more questions (and not good questions) than answers. 

Spoiler

Speaking of the Flame Emperor reveal, the big decision moment that decides whether you side with Edelgard or the Church has to be one of the most disjointed plot events I have ever seen!

So, you've just defeated Edelgard, and Rhea is demanding that she be killed for basically committing acts of rebellion against the church. Okay; I'm invested in this moment; thinking as Byleth, my student I went to that tower with after the ball and whose coronation I attended has just turned on me and turned out to be the Flame Emperor, who I know was working with the people who killed my dad. But she's my student, and nothing about her motivations has so far been stated or made clear. Right now, what I want is answers; I'm screaming for answers; "Why, Edelgard; why?!" I'm desperately wanting to tell Rhea, "She's my student! I will hear her out first." 

But, I'm not allowed to ask for answers; the game is forcing me to decide now, without any information. How am I supposed to decide? I have nothing to go on! All I have is that it turns out that Edelgard has been attacking the church and helping Those Who Slither in the Dark for currently unknown reasons. It is then that I notice that the other students, who were all shocked by Edelgard's seeming betrayal, have not only gone silent, but disappeared entirely. They're not screaming, "Why, Edelgard; why?!" They're not offering their input on the situation. They're not even just standing there looking horrified; they're just not there. They're always there in every other important scene where they're present, but not this one. I just can't tell what's going on! How am I supposed to choose! I experienced three big problems with this:

• Had I not known already that I need to choose "side with Edelgard" to play the Crimson Flower route, I might have picked the other option; thinking it was the intended route; not the secret route, and I can't imagine that I'm the only one. I can only imagine how many players may have accidently chosen the Church route and thought they were playing Edelgard's route.
• The fact that I had to think of which route I wanted to go down in order to decide killed my immersion. I couldn't think the way I would in Byleth's position; only as what I wanted to do as the player. This may not sound so bad, but immersion is important for any amount of emotional investment in a story.
• I was so busy going, "What's going on?!" and not getting any answers that literally every subsequent scene leading into the next chapter were deprived of their emotional resonance for me. All the students choosing to side with Edelgard could've been fantastic, but I spent the whole thing going, "Why are you all giving exposition of where you were when the choice happened? At least now I know." The scene where you stand beside Edelgard as she asks the students if they'll stand with her could've been very moving, and I wanted to be moved, but I was too busy thinking, "Can you please tell me what we're actually doing and why?" When Edelgard personally thanks me for siding with her, that should've been the heartwarming moment that potentially dispelled any lingering doubts about siding with her. Instead, I'm thinking, "Okay... I only sided with you to play this route of the game; I had no idea what was going on."

I just don't understand how this moment was so botched. All I needed was the opportunity to ask Edelgard "why?" or even for Edelgard to give her reasons unprompted, or at least in response to Rhea's angry remarks, and for the students to at least be there. Every other plot-relevant scene has had these so far; why is this, the most important moment in part 1, the exception? 

Side-note: after Rhea explicitly states, "Her rebellious heart cannot be allowed to keep beating", I really wanted to have Byleth say something like, "You mean like how my heart doesn't beat at all because of what you did to me?" That maybe could've been another reason to side with Edelgard if the game had let me say anything like that.

 

For the last chapter of Part 1 and for part 2, it's a similar story: I really enjoyed it, and I really liked it, but I could not help but feel that there was something missing. This time, I'm going to try to also share the good; not just the criticisms, and I'm wondering what people who have also played the Crimson Flower route think of them:

Spoiler

The Flame Emperor is never brought up again, not even in the Final Chapter of Part 1. For an essentially disc-one main antagonist whose actions and reveal would have huge ramifications, there just isn't anything after the reveal. It kind-of makes me wish that the Flame Emperor had been someone other than Edelgard. As it is now, it makes it feel like the Flame Emperor identity wasn't there to hide anything from anyone except the audience (i.e. the player). This is a small issue that's more a continuation of my previous issue with the Flame Emperor. But I figured I may as well include it. 

Spoiler

One major issue that spanned all of Crimson Flower after the moment of choice (and even leading up to the moment of choice) is a lack of CGs and cutscenes in pivotal moments where they would go a long way:

The earliest case of this would be the Siege of the Monastery (part 1). The chapter itself is fantastic; I'm not sure how I feel about the explorable base being a reuse of Miklan's Tower from Chapter 5, and I wish our allies in the fight had been command-able, but the battle itself is fantastic. The music and overall atmosphere are great, and the battle is very dynamic and strategic, with an almost rhythmic back-and-forth as the enemy units reveal more-and-more tricks up their sleeve as they respond to your advance. Rhea was a good chapter boss. This is quite the climatic fight, but then, after you beat Rhea, it becomes rather anti-climatic. Edelgard had told Byleth earlier that he is their best bet for defeating Rhea because of the Sword of the Creator and because Rhea's the Immaculate One (they're clearly forgetting that the last person to go up against the Sword and Shield of Seiros with the Sword of the Creator was Nemesis, who lost), but anyway, Byleth steps up to the plate, but Rhea unleashes an attack that presumably sends Byleth plummeting off the edge of the Monastery. I say presumably because it's all conveyed through character dialogue and a black screen. This is a moment that absolutely needed a cutscene, and it doesn't even get a CG. Byleth being struck by Rhea's attack and sent off the edge of the Monastery as Edelgard calls out for them... what a moment that would've been to witness. It would clearly illustrate Rhea's level of power while throwing some tragedy and sorrow into the mix, like the Death of Greil from Path of Radiance did for the Black Knight. But we don't see it at all. To put this in context, Lonato appearing from behind the fog got a cutscene, and this didn't.

The next moment would probably be the death of Randolph and Ladislava. Now, they weren't really important characters. One look at them and I thought, "You two just exist to explain who protects The Monastery while we're away on missions, aren't you?" But then the 2nd Siege on the Monastery happens (this time the Church doing the besieging); a very dark chapter where both sides suffer heavy losses, and Randolph and Ladislava both die to reflect that. But their deaths are extremely unceremonious; Randolph dies on-screen after getting mortally-wounded off-screen, and as he dies, he says, "Oh, by the way, Ladislava also died". This moment absolutely called for a CG to help get a sense of just how big and dire the battle was. I wouldn't suggest a full-on cutscene, but a CG appearing as Randolph explains what happened to Ladislava would've sufficed; showing them either getting overwhelmed by sheer numbers, or cut down by someone like Catherine. One of those two.

But one of the biggest offenders would have to be the Obliteration of Arianrhod and the Javelins of Light. So, they reveal that Those Who Slither in the Dark basically have missiles, and they use some to destroy Arianrhod in retaliation for Edelgard killing Cornelia and to keep Edelgard in-line, and we don't see it?! Imagine Edelgard and Byleth talking like they were, and suddenly, they see/hear something flying through the sky, and we get a cutscene of missiles flying through the air and obliterating Arianrhod. That would've been terrifying; playing through a Medieval Fantasy game, and suddenly seeing missiles! Alas; the Obliteration of Arianrhod happens off-screen. 

On the positive end, the final chapters had a very fitting CG and Cutscene respectively. The Dimitri execution CG is very good and complements the sorrowful moment very well, and the final cutscene showing Edelgard and Byleth vs Rhea is very well-animated. 

Spoiler

The next issue I have would be that a number of things are revealed in very anti-climatic ways, as if they were written with the assumption that you've seen the reveal already be delivered a lot better in other routes. In Part 1, there was Edelgard announcing that she's the Flame Emperor, which I suppose was a pragmatic decision. But then there are reveals completely unrelated to Edelgard in Part 2 that get a similar treatment. 

For instance, Rhea revealing to her soldiers that she's not just The Immaculate One; she's also Seiros herself. This had been foreshadowed back in part 1 by Seiros' Tomb not having a body in it, but there's still no weight or gravitas behind it. She's just like, "Call me Seiros", and then nothing. There isn't even any weight behind it; this is probably the first time she's publicly gone by Seiros in centuries, and she says it like it's nothing. 

Side Note: I think I just figured out why Arundal and Flame Emperor wanted to steal Seiros' body (not knowing Rhea is Seiros, based on their conversation): they needed her corpse to make a Relic for Edelgard; Aymr being the weapon they create as the next-best thing after failing to get the corpse.

Back on topic: there's a big mystery around Byleth's true nature: how they have a pulse but no heartbeat, and how they can use the full power of the Sword of the Creator without the Crest Stone. Now, they give all kinds of hints in Part 2 of Crimson Flower. But, even going into the final battle, there's been no official reveal. Then, in the final battle cutscene, Byleth is seemingly wounded (I say seemingly because there's no physical damage and they didn't seem to get hit by anything) and he collapses. Edelgard rushes to them and thinks they're dead because of the lack of heartbeat. Then we see the Crest Stone dissolve inside them and start Byleth's heart. It's a neat idea, but this is the first time they've outright said or shown that Byleth is powered by the Crest Stone; robbing the scene of some of its dramatic weight. The thing is, they still could've had this be the moment of the reveal and still had all the dramatic tension. Tell me if this would've been better:

Edelgard and Byleth strike down Rhea. But, with her last move, she slashes her claw across Byleth's chest; grievously wounding him and dislodging the Crest Stone. Edelgard races to Byleth, then sees the stone and picks it up. Shocked, she says aloud, "The Sword's Crest Stone. So this is how-" then she looks back to Byleth, who's on the verge of dying. She tries to put the stone back in him, but it isn't working. She tries pouring some of her spell-power into it in an attempt to kick-start it (it's clear from her frantic actions that she doesn't know what she's doing; she's just desperately trying to figure out how it worked so she can save Byleth). It works; Byleth is healed and their heart is kick-started, but the Stone dissolves as a result. 

Spoiler

There are a number of plot decisions, big and small, in Part 2 that don't make much sense to me and only seem to be there so that specific things can happen, or to evoke certain reactions from the audience:

So, the Empire is caught between two threats: Leicester and Fearghus-&-Church. Both are on the defensive, and your team figures they can conquer Leicester more easily, gain allies, and then march into Fearghus. The thing is, Leicester was content to largely just sit there, while Fearghus is looking for an opportunity to take advantage, yet the idea that Fearghus might respond in some way to the Empire attacking Leicester is never considered? I went through both of the Leicester chapters expecting a counterattack by Fearghus and/or the Church, or for Fearghus to attack Leicester. 

Okay; something’s odd about Seteth. He was obviously in the dark about Rhea trying to make Byleth into a vessel for Sothis; when he reads Jeralt’s journal in Part 1 and finds out that Rhea did something unnatural to baby Byleth, he blows his top at her and interrogates for over a month. And yet, in Part 2, rather than think that maybe Byleth read their dead dad’s journal and got similarly angry, he has this to say: “To think that the vessel of the goddess, entrusted with the Sword of the Creator, could go on to… Ah, it angers me to even think of it!” Oh; now he knows about Rhea’s plans for Byleth, and he’s become a yes-man about it? What?! I don’t get it… And he and Flayn had sounded so reasonable and sympathetic about the situation earlier in the conversation… Then, neither he nor Flayn really talk to Byleth about their confusion in their battle conversation. I’m glad fighting them with Byleth makes them flee instead; nice touch, but I’m not sure how much sense it makes. Then, Seteth has a letter given to Rhea, saying that he’s sorry he has to go back into hiding. He notes, “I detest that person with all my heart” who’s that person? Is it Byleth? If so, then that’s really weird. To be fair, he could just be saying that to satiate Rhea, but still…

The scene revealing the reason for Edelgard's fear of rats, as well as revealing her picture of Byleth, is very endearing and it does reveal these quirks of hers naturally. However, her locking herself in her room for a month out of embarrassment over the portrait makes no sense to me. If she's that embarrassed, why doesn't she just destroy it, or ask Bernadetta for tips on painting? It almost screams of, "Okay, we need the audience to feel sympathetic towards Edelgard as she's about to do something bad." To be clear; I'm not saying that Edelgard is evil; I'm saying that the scene reeks of the writers wanting to generate sympathy for Edelgard in advance of her doing something bad (the something bad, incidentally, being the thing I'm about to talk about next), and that's not how you write a sympathetic character. It may sound counter-intuitive at first, but the way to write a sympathetic character is to not go out of your way to write a sympathetic character. 

Aaron Ehasz: the head writer for Avatar: the Last Airbender, once described character writing like this: Great characters should be: Dimensional, Fascinating, Compelling, and Believable. A character being likeable, sympathetic, or relatable is not a bad thing, but these three things, when sought after, are often misused and can ruin storytelling as a result. I absolutely agree on this; I think Edelgard, as a character, is easily Dimensional, Fascinating and Compelling; I'm just not sure about believable. But the game does try almost too hard to make her sympathetic. 

Anyway, the next example of something that doesn't make sense is Arianrhod; specifically, what Edelgard decides to do after the Slitherers blow it up. I can understand keeping the info on who's responsible need-to-know; what I don't get is lying that the Church was responsible. Edelgard wants to betray the Slitherers after the war, and the Slitherers gave her a way to motivate people to take action against them on a silver platter: "They blew up Arianrhod when we're their allies; what more proof do you need that they cannot be allowed to roam free!" Yet, instead of saving that card for later, she decides to lie. It's so unnecessary. 

Finally, Rhea setting Fhirdhiad on fire as a tactic against the Empire forces. …How exactly? I get the point of this scene: to show how willing Rhea has become to sacrifice everything to stop Edelgard. But it doesn't make any sense from a tactical perspective. All those buildings provided good chokepoints that the defending forces could've used, the increased elevation as you get further into the city means that smoke from the fire would likely make breathing very difficult for the defending army, and there are much more viable ways to force an invading army to have to walk through fire. This action is not only morally wrong, but tactically stupid. 

Contrast this with chapter 20 of Path of Radiance: Defending Talrega. In this chapter, Shiharam's platoon of wyvern riders is forced by Petrine to open the town floodgates in order to impede the Crimean Army's approach. This is a horrific action that would cause immense damage to the town of Talrega. But it is tactically valid: force the invading army to have to wade through mud and rushing water; making all their non-flying units easy pickings for the wyvern platoon. It also forces Ike to have to locate the floodgate controls and send a detachment of troops to its location, which is exactly where Shiharam is waiting for them and where his soldiers can bottleneck and defend. It makes sense. Burning the city doesn't; in fact, succeeding in setting the inside of a castle ablaze was one way an attacker could win a siege. 

Another advantage of Defending Talrega is that a sense of urgency is maintained throughout it: immediately, there's a crisis. The music changes to something reflecting the tense crisis, Ike immediately scrambles for a plan: get Ulki and Janaff to locate the floodgates, and then send a detachment to its location to close it. There's a consistent sense of urgency. In Three Houses, when Edelgard finds out that the city's on fire, the other students decide that now is the time for each of them to give their respective, "We will survive, we will prevail, this our character growth, and everything has come to this" speech; robbing the scene of urgency. Again; it makes no sense, and there's an easy solution: have them give their speeches before the city's set on fire. 

Spoiler

Perhaps one of my biggest criticisms would have to be that, throughout the story, no one on opposite sides ever bothers to argue their points with the other; no one ever bothers to ask, "Why are you doing this?!" Even though they've stated that they want answers, they never ask for, or demand any. It's a big waste; especially given how this is supposed to be a very nuanced conflict, and the closest we get to this is Edelgard and Dimitri's boss conversation, where he basically asks, "Why do you conquer?" And Edelgard basically answers, "No, you!" …What?!

Spoiler

For everything after the end, I have to say; I really did like Byleth and Edelgard's S-Support Conversation. It was sweet and endearing. My only real problem with it is that something's... off about Edelgard's CG. There's something not quite right that causes a very Uncanny Valley effect. Am I alone in this, or does anyone else think there's something off about it?

I also liked the epilogue; I enjoyed all the different paired endings that I got (Byleth x Edelgard, Ferdinand x Dorothea, Caspar x Bernadetta, Linhardt x Lysithea, Ashe x Petra, Hanneman x Manuela) and I liked the end credits. At first I thought it weird that it had Edge of Dawn be purely instrumental without any lyrics, but then it hit me: in this playthrough, Byleth does reach for her hand. That actually makes a lot of sense. 

 

However, there is one thing about the ending that I extremely dislike: that the game just ends after we beat Rhea, and leaves beating the Slitherers for the epilogue. No! 

They had been building towards the inevitable showdown between the Empire and the Slitherers very early on. Early in Part 2, Hubert pulls us aside and promises Byleth; promises us, that after the war with the Church is over, we will crush the Slitherers. After we take Leicester, we find out that Thales is collecting the Hero's Relics that are in Leicester for some unknown goal, and it is noted that it's not yet time to fight them. Then the Javelins of Light blow up Arianrhod, and we have Thales show up before the attack on Fhirdhiad; wanting to see the siege unfold with his own eyes. All this buildup, and no satisfactory payoff. This is even worse if you do Hubert's paralogue (which I did), where he again promises that we will get to fight the Slitherers. What a liar. 

But also, it doesn't make sense thematically. Edelgard is supposed to be a deconstruction of the classic Red-Clad Emperor Archetype; the Hardin, the Rudolph, the Arvis, etc. She even allies with an evil dark-magic cult to achieve her ambitions, just like Arvis did. However, in one key respect, Arvis is more of a deconstruction than Edelgard is: he thinks he can control the Grimleal until they've served their purpose, he can't, he gets usurped by his dragon-possessed son, and he does a suicide-by-Seliph after realizing that everything he did in the name of his ambitions was all for nothing. In this regard, Edelgard is less of a deconstruction, as she beats all the Slitherers after the end in a massive hand-wave on the part of the writers. 

No; Edelgard needed her moment where it all goes wrong; Thales thanks Edelgard for killing Rhea, then proceeds to attempt to assassinate Edelgard; saying something like, "What did you think I was planning to do once this was all over? Crawl back under a rock?! No; our days underground are over. Thanks to you, the Imperial Family controls all of Fodlan, and thanks to your uncle's image, I am Imperial Family. It will be a new age for humanity, Edelgard, just as you wanted. Only, it'll be an age of (whatever his people call themselves)!" We see people and places get blown to smithereens, and Edelgard is utterly destroyed; wondering if everything she did was for nothing, and getting rid of Rhea and overthrowing the Church of Seiros only made things worse. But, we reach for her hand, we promise her that we'll bring the Slitherers down together; just as we had promised, and the rest of the story is dedicated to stopping the Slitherers' evil plan. The story needed that. I've heard people say that the only way for the Crimson Flower route to end in a way appropriate for its themes was to end on killing Rhea, but I think that's almost the opposite; omitting the Slitherers' part of the narrative weakens the route thematically. 

 

So, what do you all think? As for me, now that I'm finished Crimson Flower, I'm moving on to my second playthrough: Verdant WInd (I'm currently on chapter 6). 

Edited February 18, 2020 by vanguard333

[Crysta]

What part of the Flame Emperor thing needs further resolving?

And yeah the lack of CGs really, really hurts the dramatic moments in this route - especially if you play it after AM/VW. It makes me a sad panda.

The crest stone in the heart thing is something Edelgard herself doesn't know a whole lot about, and there are few opportunities in that route to glean knowledge about it due to being at war with an unhinged Seiros - the only one who really knows the details about it. You couldn't really have it be a big reveal in the context of that particular story, but more of a thing to illustrate to make sure you know it's a thing and make you curious about it... and you find out why it's a thing in another route.

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Crysta

[vanguard333]

7 minutes ago, Crysta said:

What part of the Flame Emperor thing needs further resolving?

I didn't think that it needed further resolving, but, normally, a disc-one main antagonist's impact extends past the part where their story arc is resolved; they'll still be mentioned, things will unfold because of what they did, etc. 

 

9 minutes ago, Crysta said:

The crest stone in the heart thing is something Edelgard herself doesn't know a whole lot about, and there are few opportunities in that route to glean knowledge about it due to being at war with an unhinged Seiros - the only one who really knows the details about it. You couldn't really have it be a big reveal in the context of that particular story, but more of a thing to illustrate to make sure you know it's a thing and make you curious about it... and you find out why it's a thing in another route.

I suppose, but then making it so life-savingly relevant at such an important moment just makes it seem very out-of-left-field. I thin that, if you're going to acknowledge it without making it a big reveal; you can't make it too relevant. Does that make sense?

[Crysta]

The significance of the Flame Emperor essentially dies when Edelgard reveals that it's her secret identity. And it seemed to exist to just hide her identity. There's no reason to just replace 'Flame Emperor did x" to "Edelgard did x" afterwards, and that seems to be what the characters do when they complain about her gathering an army underneath their noses.

It's pretty relevant to why Byleth's hair reverts back to it's normal color and he can no longer use the power of the progenitor god in his endings, so it's really just there to give you some kind of hint of what truly happened instead of just letting you go "WTF?" It's a reveal with little context that's also a tease. I think it's done pretty well from a storytelling perspective.

[Icelerate]

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

Finally, Rhea setting Fhirdhiad on fire as a tactic against the Empire forces. …How exactly? I get the point of this scene: to show how willing Rhea has become to sacrifice everything to stop Edelgard. But it doesn't make any sense from a tactical perspective. All those buildings provided good chokepoints that the defending forces could've used, the increased elevation as you get further into the city means that smoke from the fire would likely make breathing very difficult for the defending army, and there are much more viable ways to force an invading army to have to walk through fire. This action is not only morally wrong, but tactically stupid. 

 

Rhea has lost her mind at this point, so while I agree it was stupid, it's not bad writing. 

[Axel987]

32 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Rhea has lost her mind at this point, so while I agree it was stupid, it's not bad writing. 

I think it feels more odd, than anything. Because just a chapter prior she was fully capable of a pretty brutal and devious pincer attack in conjunction with the Kingdom Forces. I don't mind the chapter's setting because it's cool as fuck inherently, but it does feel odd to see her burn down her own fortress immediantly rather than doing it right after they enter IMO. It'd get the point across of her simply not caring about what she has to do to kill Edelgard and Byleth still while not feeling as incredibly stupid. That's just how I feel about it though.

[vanguard333]

7 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

I think it feels more odd, than anything. Because just a chapter prior she was fully capable of a pretty brutal and devious pincer attack in conjunction with the Kingdom Forces. I don't mind the chapter's setting because it's cool as fuck inherently, but it does feel odd to see her burn down her own fortress immediantly rather than doing it right after they enter IMO. It'd get the point across of her simply not caring about what she has to do to kill Edelgard and Byleth still while not feeling as incredibly stupid. That's just how I feel about it though.

That was stated to have been Dimitri's strategy; not Rhea's, though the fact that Dimitri was capable of strategy surprised me.

I agree; she should've set the city on fire after they entered it. 

[Axel987]

16 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

That was stated to have been Dimitri's strategy; not Rhea's, though the fact that Dimitri was capable of strategy surprised me.

I agree; she should've set the city on fire after they entered it. 

I remembered  it being shared. It's been a bit. Dimitri isn't dumb in so far as -very- emotionally driven. He's a lot more tempered and composed in CF as he doesn't go through the congo-train of further trauma the other routes put him through. He's capable of strategy well enough when necessary.

Are you fine with spoilers, I'd have to go into a good bit of that to explain Seteth, for example.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Axel987

[vanguard333]

13 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

I remember it being shared? It's been a bit. Dimitri isn't dumb in so far as -very- emotionally driven. He's a lot more tempered and composed in CF as he doesn't go through the congo-train of further trauma the other routes put him through.

Are you fine with spoilers, I'd have to go into a good bit of that to explain Seteth, for example.

No thanks; I'm just glad to know there is an explanation in the other routes. Thanks. 

Still, even if the explanations are in other routes, it should still make sense (or at least not be too jarring).

To be clear; I wasn't saying it was a bad thing that Dimitri had some tactical knowledge, and you're right that he does seem more composed in CF compared to what was in the trailers. 

 

By the way, is it true that the Crimson Flower route has four less chapters than the other two houses' routes, and three less than Silver Snow?

Edited February 19, 2020 by vanguard333

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

22 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

No thanks; I'm just glad to know there is an explanation in the other routes. Thanks. 

Still, even if the explanations are in other routes, it should still make sense (or at least not be too jarring).

To be clear; I wasn't saying it was a bad thing that Dimitri had some tactical knowledge, and you're right that he does seem more composed in CF compared to what was in the trailers. 

 

By the way, is it true that the Crimson Flower route has four less chapters than the other two houses' routes, and three less than Silver Snow?

Dimitri is far more composed in CF than other routes, yes.

And yes, CF has 18 Chapters, SS has 21, AM and VW have 22.

[vanguard333]

2 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Dimitri is far more composed in CF than other routes, yes.

And yes, CF has 18 Chapters, SS has 21, AM and VW have 22.

Thanks.

Well, that's one more reason for me to dislike that fighting the Slitherers was reserved for the epilogue. 

[Darkmoon6789]

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

Thanks.

Well, that's one more reason for me to dislike that fighting the Slitherers was reserved for the epilogue. 

I really liked Crimson Flower, but I would have also prefered a few more chapters dealing with Thales, Edelgard has more personal reasons to hate him than any other lord. I also loved your suggestion on how to deal with this route extension by having Thales backstab Edelgard after the war is over

About Arianrhod, I believe Edelgard lied as revealing the truth at that time might have invited more retribution from the Slitherers.

[Axel987]

4 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I really liked Crimson Flower, but I would have also prefered a few more chapters dealing with Thales, Edelgard has more personal reasons to hate him than any other lord. I also loved your suggestion on how to deal with this route extension by having Thales backstab Edelgard after the war is over

About Arianrhod, I believe Edelgard lied as revealing the truth at that time might have invited more retribution from the Slitherers.

Honestly that one lie is what makes me dislike you not fighting them in the actual story more.

Like, it sets up that even as she becomes closer to her support-network, she still feels like she cannot fully trust them. Before the mission she doesn't fully fill you in on who Cornelia ACTUALLY is and why you're going after her specifically. Then she lies about what happened to Arianrhod to everyone, likely to prevent further retaliation but to also increase morale. It makes pragmatic sense but it also sets up the expectation that that lie will come back to bite her, especially with an npc stating they feel like Edelgard isn't telling them the full truth.

It would've been best if we got to see the aftermath because there's interesting plot lines like that still unresolved.

[vanguard333]

17 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I really liked Crimson Flower, but I would have also prefered a few more chapters dealing with Thales, Edelgard has more personal reasons to hate him than any other lord. I also loved your suggestion on how to deal with this route extension by having Thales backstab Edelgard after the war is over

About Arianrhod, I believe Edelgard lied as revealing the truth at that time might have invited more retribution from the Slitherers.

I really liked Crimson Flower too; I tried to make that as clear as possible. And thanks regarding the suggestion; it seemed only natural to me that Thales' natural response to Edelgard's obvious hostility and intent to betray him would be to beat her to the punch.

That's the thing; as I said, I can understand withholding who's responsible or keeping it need-to-know just like how they kept the attack on Arianrhod a secret in the first place, but lying about it seemed unnecessary. 

 

7 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

Honestly that one lie is what makes me dislike you not fighting them in the actual story more.

Like, it sets up that even as she becomes closer to her support-network, she still feels like she cannot fully trust them. Before the mission she doesn't fully fill you in on who Cornelia ACTUALLY is and why you're going after her specifically. Then she lies about what happened to Arianrhod to everyone, likely to prevent further retaliation but to also increase morale. It makes pragmatic sense but it also sets up the expectation that that lie will come back to bite her, especially with an npc stating they feel like Edelgard isn't telling them the full truth.

It would've been best if we got to see the aftermath because there's interesting plot lines like that still unresolved.

I agree. If they were going to have her lie like that, then it should have come back to bite her. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by vanguard333

[Darkmoon6789]

7 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I really liked Crimson Flower too; I tried to make that as clear as possible. And thanks regarding the suggestion; it seemed only natural to me that Thales' natural response to Edelgard's obvious hostility and intent to betray him would be to beat her to the punch.

That's the thing; as I said, I can understand withholding who's responsible or keeping it need-to-know just like how they kept the attack on Arianrhod a secret in the first place, but lying about it seemed unnecessary. 

 

I agree. If they were going to have her lie like that, then it should have come back to bite her. 

The way I see it, if someone blows up a city, and you can't tell the truth, you still need to pin it on someone. I don't really blame her for this decision, but it does feel like an unresolved plot thread.

Edit. I speculate the developers ran out of time on this route

Edited February 19, 2020 by Darkmoon6789

[omegaxis1]

3 hours ago, Axel987 said:

I think it feels more odd, than anything. Because just a chapter prior she was fully capable of a pretty brutal and devious pincer attack in conjunction with the Kingdom Forces. I don't mind the chapter's setting because it's cool as fuck inherently, but it does feel odd to see her burn down her own fortress immediantly rather than doing it right after they enter IMO. It'd get the point across of her simply not caring about what she has to do to kill Edelgard and Byleth still while not feeling as incredibly stupid. That's just how I feel about it though.

For the record, there was never meant to be a pincer attack. Dimitri was actually trying to trick Rhea and have her fight the Empire first, while he flanked them, when he told her that it was meant to be the other way around. But due to the rain and the speed of the Imperial army's march, Dimitri's plan fell in ruins. 

As for Rhea, she went from hating Byleth as Nemesis 2.0 and Edelgard to basically blaming all of humanity for her suffering. Hence why she regards that humans are the ones that betrayed her and her mother.

[vanguard333]

20 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Edit. I speculate the developers ran out of time on this route

On the one hand, that wouldn't surprise me, because of the lack of three-to-four chapters compared to other routes. On the other hand, it would surprise me, because the game was delayed twice and they brought in Koei Temco to help with the game's development. 

By the way, one small issue I forgot to list, though it's more of a question than an issue:

Spoiler

So, it is all but stated in the Crimson Flower route that Arundal is really Thales disguised as Edelgard's uncle. In part 1, Thales blocks Byleth's attack at Kronya; saving Kronya and ensuring Jeralt's death. We also have Those Who Slither in the Dark be scared enough of Byleth as a potential threat that they arrange an elaborate death trap that ultimately fails and results in Solon's death. 

Then, five years later, during Hubert's paralogue, you are there when Thales shows up to ask Hubert for assistance. Thales sees with his own eyes that Byleth, the "Fell Stone" they feared, that has been presumed dead for five years, has resurfaced, and Thales sees that Byleth's alive with their own eyes, and... nothing. He doesn't even acknowledge Byleth's presence at all. I can understand if he's already been made aware that Byleth lives, but no reaction at all to seeing this former threat (that has reason to hate his guts specifically) standing in front of him? Is there a reason?

 

[Darkmoon6789]

I did really like crimson flower, regardless2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

On the one hand, that wouldn't surprise me, because of the lack of three-to-four chapters compared to other routes. On the other hand, it would surprise me, because the game was delayed twice and they brought in Koei Temco to help with the game's development. 

By the way, one small issue I forgot to list, though it's more of a question than an issue:

  Hide contents

So, it is all but stated in the Crimson Flower route that Arundal is really Thales disguised as Edelgard's uncle. In part 1, Thales blocks Byleth's attack at Kronya; saving Kronya and ensuring Jeralt's death. We also have Those Who Slither in the Dark be scared enough of Byleth as a potential threat that they arrange an elaborate death trap that ultimately fails and results in Solon's death. 

Then, five years later, during Hubert's paralogue, you are there when Thales shows up to ask Hubert for assistance. Thales sees with his own eyes that Byleth, the "Fell Stone" they feared, that has been presumed dead for five years, has resurfaced, and Thales sees that Byleth's alive with their own eyes, and... nothing. He doesn't even acknowledge Byleth's presence at all. I can understand if he's already been made aware that Byleth lives, but no reaction at all to seeing this former threat (that has reason to hate his guts specifically) standing in front of him? Is there a reason?

 

I did really like crimson flower regardless, it was also my first route I played in the game and I found it really satisfactory overall, mainly due to the extremely sweet relationship between Byleth and Edelgard. Getting to know Edelgard was truly a treat and I found her to be a cute and kindhearted girl beneath that cold facade. I would have liked a showdown with Thales, if they didn't run out of time. It is possible I decided to save it for other routes as they wanted the them to be more distinct. 

I would speculate that Thales might consider Byleth less of a threat now that he is on Edelgard's side. He does strike me as incredibly arrogant during his interaction with Byleth, so maybe the reason he got blindsided after the war is that he wrongly believed that he had Edelgard under his control. Or maybe that the slitherers are so single minded only focused on the destruction of the church and Rhea that maybe they never considered the Aftermatch at all. 

[vanguard333]

On 2/19/2020 at 10:34 PM, Darkmoon6789 said:

I did really like crimson flower regardless, it was also my first route I played in the game and I found it really satisfactory overall, mainly due to the extremely sweet relationship between Byleth and Edelgard. Getting to know Edelgard was truly a treat and I found her to be a cute and kindhearted girl beneath that cold facade. I would have liked a showdown with Thales, if they didn't run out of time. It is possible I decided to save it for other routes as they wanted the them to be more distinct. 

As did I. I agree; the dynamic between Edelgard and Byleth is very sweet, and Edelgard herself is a very interesting character, as I said in the part about character writing. A showdown with Thales would've been cool.

Speaking of which, what did you think of the thing I mentioned about the character writing?

 

On 2/19/2020 at 10:34 PM, Darkmoon6789 said:

I would speculate that Thales might consider Byleth less of a threat now that he is on Edelgard's side. He does strike me as incredibly arrogant during his interaction with Byleth, so maybe the reason he got blindsided after the war is that he wrongly believed that he had Edelgard under his control. Or maybe that the slitherers are so single minded only focused on the destruction of the church and Rhea that maybe they never considered the Aftermatch at all. 

Yeah; that could explain it. I guess the lack of reaction just threw me off. At least one line like, "I trust Edelgard has made you aware of where we stand. I suggest you not hold onto a petty grudge, or you'll be responsible for ending Jeralt's bloodline." might've helped.

Edited February 21, 2020 by vanguard333

[Crysta]

Cornelia implies she thought she and Byleth would eventually be friends before you off her, so yeah, the Slitherers thought Byleth was gonna be Nemesis 2.0 for them I think.

[vanguard333]

3 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Cornelia implies she thought she and Byleth would eventually be friends before you off her, so yeah, the Slitherers thought Byleth was gonna be Nemesis 2.0 for them I think.

Ah; that makes sense. How did I miss that? I even had Byleth fight Cornelia in my playthrough.

By the way, what's with everyone thinking Byleth would be Nemesis 2.0 for them? They do remember that Nemesis lost; right?

Edited February 20, 2020 by vanguard333

[Crysta]

12 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Ah; that makes sense. How did I miss that? I even had Byleth fight Cornelia in my playthrough.

By the way, what's with everyone thinking Byleth would be Nemesis 2.0 for them? They do remember that Nemesis lost; right?

He was a useful idiot for a time! Got a bunch of neat-- oh wait you haven't done that route yet.

[Darkmoon6789]

6 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

As did I. I agree; the dynamic between Edelgard and Byleth is very sweet, and Edelgard herself is a very interesting character, as I said in the part about character writing. A showdown with Thales would've been cool.

Speaking of which, what did you think of the thing I mentioned about the character writing?

 

Yeah; that could explain it. I guess the lack of reaction just threw me off. 

You mean how you said that they almost tried too hard in making Edelgard sympathetic? I can see the argument, but it didn't bother me personally. If anything, it just made me more confused about how anyone could consider Edelgard to be evil, at the very least,not crimson flower Edelgard. I had heard that Edelgard was considered quite controversial before I even got into the game, but given that reputation I actually expected much worse. I am an experienced Devils advocate, but defending Edelgard is easy mode, I have defended characters who are way worse than her. Normally I make the argument that a character perceived as evil is actually some version of a neutral alignment, but in case of Edelgard I would go as far as to say that she is legitimately of a good alignment. Despite popular belief, I do think it is completely possible for a good aligned character to do bad things, they just need to believe that what we are doing is right and have an unselfish motivation for doing so. 

I think you said something about that Edelgard possibly being not quite believable as she is presented, you could have a point as I am also not certain if a person like Edelgard could really exist, despite being prone to mistakes. She is incredibly unselfish to the point that she is willing to sacrifice not only her personal desires, but her very life to what she considers the greater good, she even refuses to indulge herself in something as simple as sweets before her task is completed. She dedicates nearly all her time to work, fights on the front lines, together with her soldiers and is even willing to help out with work around the monastery , despite being the freaking Emperor. I am not sure a leader like this has existed in the entire history of humanity, so maybe it isn't entirely believable. But she still managed to come across as a very human character who is far more than a cold conquering Emperor. 

It is actually this dichotomy between Edelgard's very pure, self-sacrificing personality and her actions starting bloodbath on a massive scale for the sake of a greater good that makes her so interesting in my opinion. Sorry, I just really like talking about Edelgard, you might have noticed her being my favourite character in this entire game

[NolanBaumgartner]

I made an account here to ramble about Crimson Flower, so I'm glad this thread already exists. I generally agree with the observations pointing out the major unresolved plot points, which is highly problematic considering there won't be a continuation to the narrative. Not only the route is substantially shorter than the others, but the "true" antagonist of the route is hand-waived as a footnote that's never resolved. 

Some other points that I hope serve as fresher discussion:

Realistically, could we even get to Crimson Flower?

Spoiler

From a narrative standpoint, my problem with Edelgard-as-Flame-Emperor is that her association with TWSITD doesn't just grays the morality of her actions, but that it SHOULD have been a major, perhaps even irreconcilable fault line between herself and Byleth. She orchestrated the bandit attack. She had Jeritza kidnap Flayn. She assisted TWSTID in some of their brutal, murderous pursuits. She even had the balls to give a CEO-during-restructuring type of speech to Byleth after Jeralt's murder, even though she was indirectly irresponsible for it via her associating with "Monica"/TWSITD. Hell, "Monica" is inseparable from Edelgard in the chapters leading up to her true identity reveal. That she "disavowed" TWSITD's methods shouldn't have mattered, considering the consequences. 

Last but not least, there's the attack on the Holy Tomb. This genuinely makes 0 logical sense on the Crimson Flower route. If Byleth had sufficient support, not only she revealed to them her Crest of Flames but also had them vouch for her in her ascent to Emperor. Both actions not only imply an incredible amount of trust and recognition of Byleth's strength, but also made the Flame Emperor masquerade really easy to figure out. Either way, the consequence of the attack is that Edelgard shows herself willing to have Byleth and her classmates killed over Crest Stones, and to die herself if the attempt failed, without ever cluing in someone she ostensibly trusted to the highest degree and who would obviously be the main foil to her plan. I feel like this part only made it to the final product because doing otherwise would've required a redesign of Chapter 11 just for the Edelgard route, effectively starting Crimson Flower earlier. 

Despite all this, Byleth chose to not execute her. At the very, very least, the camp before the monastery retake could've been where all of the crap that she pulled as Flame Emperor that came to hurt Byleth one way or the other should've been laid bare. And it just never happens. Worse, she maintains associate (albeit uneasy) with TWSTID throughout the game - we've talked plenty about that, but it only accentuates how strained the relationship should've been and it does worsen the quality of the story. Although it's beaten over everyone's head how Edelgard's actions leads her to become seemingly evil, the way she personally hurt Byleth and her peers is just not addressed.

If the writing was tighter, the pre-Holy Tomb situation could've been such that Edelgard either willingly reveals her plot to Byleth to enlist them as allies, or Byleth figures out the Flame Emperor charade. Then Byleth could've had the choice to either go ahead with her, or reject her plans. Even without the necessary support level, it would've made actual sense instead of the intellectually insulting mess that made to the game.

 

RE: Is Edelgard a believable character?

I certainly think so. In terms of historical leaders she's comparable to enlightened rulers who sought to upend the very system that gave them power, which was a recurring theme between the French Revolution and WWI - think Napoleon I or Pedro of Portugal/Brazil. On a modern society comparison, she's more like a self-aware CEO-type. You'll find similar people in middle management and corporate boards. Not so much democratically-elected politicians.

A character doesn't have to have strictly negative traits to be perceived as villainous. Edelgard's personality is mostly positive - she's intelligent, earnest, empathetic, hardworking and takes responsibility for her choices. But she's also ideological, stubborn and impulsive - which you could use to describe any number of perfectly normal people. However, given her position as the leader of the Empire, it's what makes her not only wage war to pursue lofty societal goals but also align herself with highly unsavory characters if it meant accomplishing that goal in the short term. Despite all the good in her, Edelgard still has a Machiavellian streak that makes it justifiable to cast her as a villain even when you get her side of the story. Her circumstances where such that she chose to do something about the evil that surrounded her, but therein lies the tragedy of unleashing unto others the same nightmare you're trying to undo. 

[Darkmoon6789]

28 minutes ago, NolanBaumgartner said:

I made an account here to ramble about Crimson Flower, so I'm glad this thread already exists. I generally agree with the observations pointing out the major unresolved plot points, which is highly problematic considering there won't be a continuation to the narrative. Not only the route is substantially shorter than the others, but the "true" antagonist of the route is hand-waived as a footnote that's never resolved. 

Some other points that I hope serve as fresher discussion:

Realistically, could we even get to Crimson Flower?

  Hide contents

From a narrative standpoint, my problem with Edelgard-as-Flame-Emperor is that her association with TWSITD doesn't just grays the morality of her actions, but that it SHOULD have been a major, perhaps even irreconcilable fault line between herself and Byleth. She orchestrated the bandit attack. She had Jeritza kidnap Flayn. She assisted TWSTID in some of their brutal, murderous pursuits. She even had the balls to give a CEO-during-restructuring type of speech to Byleth after Jeralt's murder, even though she was indirectly irresponsible for it via her associating with "Monica"/TWSITD. Hell, "Monica" is inseparable from Edelgard in the chapters leading up to her true identity reveal. That she "disavowed" TWSITD's methods shouldn't have mattered, considering the consequences. 

Last but not least, there's the attack on the Holy Tomb. This genuinely makes 0 logical sense on the Crimson Flower route. If Byleth had sufficient support, not only she revealed to them her Crest of Flames but also had them vouch for her in her ascent to Emperor. Both actions not only imply an incredible amount of trust and recognition of Byleth's strength, but also made the Flame Emperor masquerade really easy to figure out. Either way, the consequence of the attack is that Edelgard shows herself willing to have Byleth and her classmates killed over Crest Stones, and to die herself if the attempt failed, without ever cluing in someone she ostensibly trusted to the highest degree and who would obviously be the main foil to her plan. I feel like this part only made it to the final product because doing otherwise would've required a redesign of Chapter 11 just for the Edelgard route, effectively starting Crimson Flower earlier. 

Despite all this, Byleth chose to not execute her. At the very, very least, the camp before the monastery retake could've been where all of the crap that she pulled as Flame Emperor that came to hurt Byleth one way or the other should've been laid bare. And it just never happens. Worse, she maintains associate (albeit uneasy) with TWSTID throughout the game - we've talked plenty about that, but it only accentuates how strained the relationship should've been and it does worsen the quality of the story. Although it's beaten over everyone's head how Edelgard's actions leads her to become seemingly evil, the way she personally hurt Byleth and her peers is just not addressed.

If the writing was tighter, the pre-Holy Tomb situation could've been such that Edelgard either willingly reveals her plot to Byleth to enlist them as allies, or Byleth figures out the Flame Emperor charade. Then Byleth could've had the choice to either go ahead with her, or reject her plans. Even without the necessary support level, it would've made actual sense instead of the intellectually insulting mess that made to the game.

 

RE: Is Edelgard a believable character?

I certainly think so. In terms of historical leaders she's comparable to enlightened rulers who sought to upend the very system that gave them power, which was a recurring theme between the French Revolution and WWI - think Napoleon I or Pedro of Portugal/Brazil. On a modern society comparison, she's more like a self-aware CEO-type. You'll find similar people in middle management and corporate boards. Not so much democratically-elected politicians.

A character doesn't have to have strictly negative traits to be perceived as villainous. Edelgard's personality is mostly positive - she's intelligent, earnest, empathetic, hardworking and takes responsibility for her choices. But she's also ideological, stubborn and impulsive - which you could use to describe any number of perfectly normal people. However, given her position as the leader of the Empire, it's what makes her not only wage war to pursue lofty societal goals but also align herself with highly unsavory characters if it meant accomplishing that goal in the short term. Despite all the good in her, Edelgard still has a Machiavellian streak that makes it justifiable to cast her as a villain even when you get her side of the story. Her circumstances where such that she chose to do something about the evil that surrounded her, but therein lies the tragedy of unleashing unto others the same nightmare you're trying to undo. 

I do think I would have preferred if the choice to join with the Flame Emperor actually came before the mission and not after,  that would have made more sense. I already made up my mind before at that point, as I already had figured out the identity of the Flame Emperor, just felt to me that I was basically forced to fight her despite not really wanting to. I think the game overestimated how loyal I would really be to the church, they have shown signs of sketchy behaviour by the church the entire game. So I never felt truly aligned with them and more like circumstances forced me to act as the leader of one of Rhea's death squads in dealing with supposed heretics. Dealing with Lord Lonato never sat entirely right with me and I was wondering through most of the early game if there was legitimate reasons for his rebellion, and I honestly think there are. Yes, there are such things as the assassination of Jeralt, but I quickly came to the conclusion that Edelgard wasn't truly in favour of this, in fact, she almost immediately afterwards helps you hunt down his killer. I don't consider her words after his death, a problem either, it is obvious she just want to help you in her own way. I am kind of reading the entire situation as her serving up Kronya's head as a way to help Byleth overcome his/her grief. However harsh it may sound, Edelgard is right, you need to eventually move on from grief, you shouldn't let it cripple your entire life. It is here she is very different from Rhea.

I also think that Edelgard's ideals are actually very similar to that of the French Revolution and I have made comparisons between her and Napoleon in the past. Her alliance with the slitherers is unfortunate but it is also clear to me that she really don't have much of an alternative, given how much power they have in the Empire. To my understanding Thales was behind the insurrection of the seven and have had power over the imperial royal line for most of Edelgard's life. Everything you describe is why I consider Edelgard such a great character, she really makes you think about the very nature of good and evil, and their relationship between someone's core character, motivation and actions. And as a result of contemplating these things I have learned a lot about myself and how I view these topics. I don't think there is an objective answer, as each person would see someone like Edelgard differently, in my mind her good intentions overshadow everything else. Whenever she is right or not is unclear as that would require me to know every single potential outcome of this war and what kind of future they would lead to for quite a long time into the future, more so than the game is providing. But I do think that she was basically tricked into declaring this war as Thales has been planning exactly this for a very long time, that Edelgard also managed to get rid of Thales and his minions, so whatever damage was done during the war, his evil was eventually undone. Thanks to Edelgard. Antihero and Antivillain I think the terms that best describe who Edelgard is, which is the case, does depend on whenever you join her or not.